IRC log of ua on 2012-06-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:42:09 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:42:09 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/14-ua-irc
16:42:10 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:42:10 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
16:42:12 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:42:12 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 18 minutes
16:42:13 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:42:14 [trackbot]
Date: 14 June 2012
16:44:18 [kford]
kford has joined #ua
16:44:35 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
16:44:35 [Zakim]
I see nothing on the agenda
16:46:17 [kford]
agenda+Action-737 Rewording UAAG2 5.1.3 (was 5.3.2) Implement
16:46:18 [kford]
Accessibility Features of platform
16:46:20 [kford]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0103.html
16:46:21 [kford]
agenda+ Changes to 2.8 Provide toolbar configuration
16:46:23 [kford]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0105.html
16:46:24 [kford]
agenda+ Changes to UAAG2 2.4.5 Advanced Find
16:46:26 [kford]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0104.html
16:46:28 [kford]
agenda+ IER for 1.8.6: Zoom
16:46:30 [kford]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0099.html
16:46:31 [kford]
agenda+action-733 definition of shortcut
16:46:33 [kford]
Agenda+Action-725 - Write IER for "1.2.2 Repair Missing Structure"
16:46:35 [kford]
[SC changed IER no longer matches SC]
16:46:37 [kford]
Agenda+Action-729 Definition of Style Sheet
16:46:39 [kford]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0082.html
16:46:40 [kford]
[need to complete this discussion be Jan and Greg, and update the document]
16:47:09 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:47:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/14-ua-minutes.html kford
16:47:22 [kford]
Regrets: Jim
17:00:01 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:00:08 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:02:24 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
17:02:34 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
17:02:45 [Jan]
zakim, code?
17:02:45 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan
17:02:50 [Zakim]
+Greg_Lowney
17:03:05 [Zakim]
+??P1
17:03:16 [Jan]
zakim, ??P1 is really Jan
17:03:16 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
17:03:57 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
17:04:08 [kford]
zakim, microsoft is kford
17:04:08 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
17:04:13 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
17:04:42 [Zakim]
+Kim_Patch
17:06:32 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
17:06:32 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
17:06:34 [Zakim]
1. Action-737 Rewording UAAG2 5.1.3 (was 5.3.2) Implement [from kford]
17:06:34 [Zakim]
2. Changes to 2.8 Provide toolbar configuration [from kford]
17:06:34 [Zakim]
3. Changes to UAAG2 2.4.5 Advanced Find [from kford]
17:06:34 [Zakim]
4. IER for 1.8.6: Zoom [from kford]
17:06:34 [Zakim]
5. action-733 definition of shortcut [from kford]
17:06:34 [Zakim]
6. Action-725 - Write IER for "1.2.2 Repair Missing Structure" [from kford]
17:06:36 [Zakim]
7. Action-729 Definition of Style Sheet [from kford]
17:08:21 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
17:09:27 [sharper]
zakim, code?
17:09:27 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), sharper
17:11:09 [kford]
Adding links and full agenda. Will not change original entries.
17:11:12 [kford]
agenda Action-737 Rewording UAAG2 5.1.3 (was 5.3.2) Implement
17:11:14 [kford]
Accessibility Features of platform
17:11:15 [kford]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0103.html
17:11:17 [kford]
agenda Changes to 2.8 Provide toolbar configuration
17:11:18 [kford]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0105.html
17:11:20 [kford]
agenda Changes to UAAG2 2.4.5 Advanced Find
17:11:21 [kford]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0104.html
17:11:23 [kford]
agenda IER for 1.8.6: Zoom
17:11:24 [kford]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0099.html
17:11:26 [kford]
agenda action-733 definition of shortcut
17:11:27 [kford]
Agenda Action-725 - Write IER for "1.2.2 Repair Missing Structure"
17:11:29 [kford]
[SC changed IER no longer matches SC]
17:11:30 [kford]
Agenda Action-729 Definition of Style Sheet
17:11:32 [kford]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0082.html
17:11:34 [kford]
[need to complete this discussion be Jan and Greg, and update the document]
17:12:34 [kford]
zakim, take up item 1
17:12:34 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Action-737 Rewording UAAG2 5.1.3 (was 5.3.2) Implement" taken up [from kford]
17:12:56 [kford]
Link: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0103.html
17:13:30 [Zakim]
+??P5
17:13:36 [sharper]
zakim, ??P5 is sharper
17:13:36 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
17:14:44 [Greg]
Existing wording:
17:14:46 [Greg]
5.1.3 Implement Accessibility Features of platform: Implement and cite in the conformance claim the accessibility features of platform technology specifications. Accessibility features are those that are either (Level A) :
17:14:47 [Greg]
identified as such in the specification or
17:14:49 [Greg]
allow authors to satisfy a requirement of WCAG
17:15:50 [Greg]
Jan's proposed new wording:
17:15:52 [Greg]
Accessibility Guidelines: If the user agent contains non-web-based user interfaces, then those non-web-based user interfaces follow user interface accessibility guidelines for the platform. (Level A)
17:16:26 [Greg]
Intent:
17:16:27 [Greg]
The intent of this success criterion is to ensure that user agent user interfaces that are not web applications are more accessible to authors with disabilities. Existing platform accessibility guidelines are referenced because accessibility guidelines already exist for many platforms and this wording allows developers the flexibility to conform with accessibility legislation in their markets.
17:16:29 [Greg]
Note: Developers should see the documents listed in the "Related Resources for Success Criterion A.1.2.1" section. Unless special circumstances exist (e.g., a document has been superseded, the platform has undergone major architectural changes), the listed resources should be assumed to be relevant to the platforms listed.
17:16:47 [Jan]
A.1.2.1 Accessibility Guidelines: If the authoring tool contains non-web-based user interfaces, then those non-web-based user interfaces follow user interface accessibility guidelines for the platform. (Level A)
17:16:48 [Jan]
Note: The (optional) explanation of conformance claim results should record the user interface accessibility guidelines that were followed.
17:17:26 [Greg]
Greg: We can cross reference the UAAG20 SC about documenting accessibility features.
17:18:19 [kford]
Accessibility Guidelines: For those portions of the user agent interrface that are non web-based,then those non-web-based user interfaces follow user interface accessibility
17:18:21 [kford]
guidelines for the platform. (Level A)
17:18:28 [Jan]
A.1.2.2 Platform Accessibility Services: If the authoring tool contains non-web-based user interfaces, then those non-web-based user interfaces implement communication with platform accessibility services. (Level A)
17:18:29 [Jan]
Note: The (optional) explanation of conformance claim results should record the platform accessibility service(s) that were implemented.
17:19:11 [Jan]
Ignore that last one (A.1.2.2)
17:21:08 [Greg]
Kelly suggested changing "If the user agent contains non-web-based user interfaces" to "those portions of the user agent interrface that are non web-based".
17:21:34 [Greg]
s/"those/"For those/
17:22:29 [Jan]
Note: The (optional) explanation of conformance claim results should record the user interface accessibility guidelines that were followed.
17:22:53 [KimPatch]
Accessibility Guidelines: Non web-based portions of the user agent interrface should follow user interface accessibility
17:23:12 [kford]
So the SC text is as follows:
17:23:15 [kford]
Accessibility Guidelines: For those portions of the user agent interrface that are non-web-based, then those non-web-based user interfaces follow user interface accessibility
17:23:17 [kford]
guidelines for the platform. (Level A)
17:26:18 [Jan]
Accessibility Guidelines: If the user agent contains non-web-based user interfaces, then those user interfaces follow user interface accessibility guidelines for the platform. (Level A)
17:27:42 [Greg]
Could drop the second "user interface".
17:28:45 [Greg]
Resolved: accepting Jan's proposal almost immediately above.
17:29:15 [kford]
Close Action-737
17:29:15 [trackbot]
ACTION-737 Present 3.3.2 to list and bring up at next meeting closed
17:29:25 [Greg]
zakim, take up next
17:29:25 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Changes to 2.8 Provide toolbar configuration" taken up [from kford]
17:32:15 [Greg]
zakim, take up 1
17:32:15 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'take up 1', Greg
17:32:22 [Greg]
zakim, take up item 1
17:32:22 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Action-737 Rewording UAAG2 5.1.3 (was 5.3.2) Implement" taken up [from kford]
17:32:41 [Greg]
Greg: Do we need to merge the existing UAAG and ATAG intent and examples?
17:33:58 [Greg]
Jeanne proposes incorporating Jan's ATAG Intent paragraph as the new 1st paragraph before continuing into our existing Intent paragraphs.
17:34:45 [Greg]
Greg: Our existing third paragraph is about documenting the features, which we have dropped here.
17:35:30 [Greg]
Jan: Would just take 1st paragraph of existing Intent, along with the new Intent paragraph from ATAG.
17:38:33 [Greg]
4.1.1 requires the UA to support a platform accessibility architecture, and presumably 3.3.2 Document Accessibility Features would require that support be documented.
17:39:13 [Greg]
Thus we don't need to address it in 5.1.3, except perhaps cross-reference.
17:39:58 [Jan]
JR: Suggests replacing "4.1.1 Platform Accessibility Architecture: The user agent supports a platform accessibility architecture relevant to the operating environment. (Level A)" with "A.1.2.2 Platform Accessibility Services: If the authoring tool contains non-web-based user interfaces, then those non-web-based user interfaces implement communication with platform accessibility services....
17:40:00 [Jan]
...(Level A) Note: The (optional) explanation of conformance claim results should record the platform accessibility service(s) that were implemented."
17:40:21 [Greg]
Jan: Suggests replacing current wording of 4.1.1 Platform Accessibility Architecture with the wording from ATAG that acknowledges only non-web-based UI supports platform accessibility architecture; web-based UI supports WCAG instead.
17:41:19 [Greg]
Greg: Some terminology differences between ATAG and UAAG, e.g. services vs. architecture.
17:42:25 [Greg]
Jan: ATAG changed "Platform Accessibility Architecture" to "Platform Accessibility Services" to harmonize with the new 508 draft.
17:42:41 [Greg]
Greg: I have no problem adopting that term, although it may change again.
17:43:15 [Jan]
Link to 508 refresh draft text: http://www.access-board.gov/sec508/refresh/draft-rule.htm#_Toc310327561
17:45:07 [Greg]
Greg: ISO 9241-171 uses the term "accessibility services" as in 8.5.3 "Software that provides user-interface elements shall use the accessibility services provided by the platform to
17:45:09 [Greg]
cooperate with assistive technologies."
17:47:01 [Greg]
Greg: I actually like the ISO wording. Oh, well.
17:48:46 [kford]
Action: JS to replace platform accessibility language to updated as platform accessibility services thorughout document.
17:48:46 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-739 - Replace platform accessibility language to updated as platform accessibility services thorughout document. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2012-06-21].
17:49:20 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
17:49:20 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
17:49:21 [Zakim]
2. Changes to 2.8 Provide toolbar configuration [from kford]
17:49:21 [Zakim]
3. Changes to UAAG2 2.4.5 Advanced Find [from kford]
17:49:21 [Zakim]
4. IER for 1.8.6: Zoom [from kford]
17:49:21 [Zakim]
5. action-733 definition of shortcut [from kford]
17:49:21 [Zakim]
6. Action-725 - Write IER for "1.2.2 Repair Missing Structure" [from kford]
17:49:23 [Zakim]
7. Action-729 Definition of Style Sheet [from kford]
17:51:38 [Greg]
Jan will email to the list his proposal for replacing 4.1.1 Platform Accessibility Architecture with wording based on ATAG.
17:52:18 [Greg]
zakim, take up next
17:52:18 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Changes to 2.8 Provide toolbar configuration" taken up [from kford]
17:52:33 [kford]
Link: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0105.html
17:55:20 [Greg]
Existing:
17:55:22 [Greg]
2.8.1 Configure Position: The user can add, remove, and reorder any toolbars and similar containers, and the items within them. (Level AA)
17:55:23 [Greg]
2.8.2 Restore Default Toolbars: The user can restore the default toolbar, panel, or inspector configuration. (Level AAA)
17:55:25 [Greg]
Proposed:
17:55:26 [Greg]
2.8.1 Configure Toolbars: The user can add, remove, reorder, show, and hide any _toolbars and similar containers_, and the items within them. (Level AA)
17:55:28 [Greg]
2.8.2 Reset Toolbar Configuration: The user can restore all _toolbars and similar containers_ to their default configuration. (Level AAA)
17:55:29 [Greg]
Glossary entry for _Toolbars and similar containers_:
17:55:31 [Greg]
A collection of commonly used controls presented in a region that can be configured or navigated separately from other regions. Such containers may be docked or free-floating, permanent or transient, integral to the application or add-ons. Variations are often called toolbars, palettes,
17:55:34 [Greg]
panels, or inspectors.
17:56:16 [Greg]
Jan: The SC has been around for many years, but difficulty differentiating toolbars from other containers, and it would be asking too much to expect all of them to be configurable.
17:56:31 [Greg]
Jan: ATAG dropped this because they could not resolve this point.
17:57:12 [Greg]
Simon: Might toolbars be identified by reliance on graphics and have horizontal layout?
17:58:11 [Greg]
Kim: Making UI flexible creates potential workarounds, such as her product has taken advantage of to optimize user experience.
17:58:47 [Greg]
Jan: Agreed it's important for access, but difficulty in writing it so it can be testable.
17:59:30 [Greg]
Jan: Wouldn't want to fail something that had a wonderfully configurable toolbar at the top, but the status bar isn't configurable.
18:01:13 [Greg]
Kim: Hiding is particularly important e.g. for people who are distractable.
18:01:52 [Greg]
Greg: Worried about panels, panes, and window regions that aren't really toolbar-like. How would they be distinguished for testing purposes?
18:04:39 [Greg]
Kim: Transient things like the Ctrl+I pop-up in Internet Explorer is less of a problem than persistent UI elements.
18:06:00 [Greg]
Jan: Maybe we want them to have a toolbar when there's functionality not available on the first layer, allowing users to expose shortcuts to things normally hidden or more difficult to reach.
18:06:23 [Greg]
Kim: That's good for adding shortcuts, but also want to be able to hide the ones that are there by default.
18:08:17 [Greg]
ISO 9241-171 has two relevant guidelines:
18:08:18 [Greg]
8.4.2 Optimize the number of steps required for any task
18:08:20 [Greg]
Software should be designed to optimize the number of steps that the user has to perform for any given task.
18:08:21 [Greg]
8.3.6 Enable persistent display: When users can activate a menu, control, or other user-interface element to display additional information or controls, software should allow that information or control to persist while the user engages in other tasks, until the user chooses to dismiss it
18:08:23 [Greg]
[44] , if it is appropriate to the task.
18:08:53 [Greg]
Those are both "Should" guidelines, meaning recommended but not required, equivalent of our Level AA.
18:11:23 [Greg]
Jan will think about this offline.
18:11:41 [Greg]
Greg: We could reduce to AAA if the only other option is dropping it altogether.
18:12:04 [Greg]
Greg: As in, making everything configurable is a noble, lofty goal, even if not usually feasible.
18:12:06 [kford]
zakim, take up next item
18:12:06 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Changes to UAAG2 2.4.5 Advanced Find" taken up [from kford]
18:12:26 [Greg]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0104.html
18:12:27 [kford]
Link: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0104.html
18:15:46 [Greg]
It all looks pretty good. Only minor concern is the phrase "known location"; usually they're not using text search to go to a known location (e.g. particular page or heading), but to find a desired occurrence of a phrase or string.
18:15:52 [sharper]
'even if it may not be visible rendered' -> even if it may not be visibly rendered
18:16:47 [sharper]
"ensure that find functionality allows" -> 'ensure that 'find' functionality allows' as find is being used as a noun in this case.
18:18:10 [Greg]
Greg: Interestingly, there are other advanced search options which are equally or nearly as useful, such as turning on or off searching for word variants.
18:18:24 [Greg]
Greg: But they're not crucial.
18:20:47 [Greg]
Intent with Simon's edits:
18:20:48 [Greg]
Authors frequently provide alternative content to meet web content accessibility guidelines, which users with disabilities will experience as part of the content. The purpose of this success criteria is to ensure that "find" functionality allows users to locate this content, even if it may not be visibly rendered.
18:21:19 [Greg]
Or: Authors frequently provide alternative content to meet web content accessibility guidelines, which users with disabilities will experience as part of the content. The purpose of this success criteria is to ensure that text search allows users to locate this content, even if it may not be visibly rendered.
18:21:38 [Greg]
(That's using "text search" instead of "'Find' functionality".)
18:22:47 [Greg]
Resolved: adopt Jan's wording in the email, replacing the Intent paragraph with the one immediately above.
18:23:15 [Greg]
zakim, take up next
18:23:15 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "IER for 1.8.6: Zoom" taken up [from kford]
18:23:31 [Greg]
Link: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0099.html
18:23:36 [kford]
Link: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0099.html
18:24:16 [Greg]
Existing wording:
18:24:18 [Greg]
1.8.6: Zoom [was 1.8.X]: The user can rescale content within graphical viewports as follows: (Level A)## DONE 26 April
18:24:20 [Greg]
(a) Zoom-in: to at least 500% of the default size; and
18:24:21 [Greg]
(b) Zoom-out: to at least 10% of the default size, or such that the content fits within the height or width of the viewport.
18:25:09 [Greg]
These are already in the latest editor's draft.
18:27:13 [kford]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/scribing.html
18:27:30 [Zakim]
-Kim_Patch
18:27:32 [Zakim]
-kford
18:27:36 [Zakim]
-Jan
18:28:53 [Greg]
rrsagent, make logs public
18:29:03 [Greg]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:29:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/14-ua-minutes.html Greg
18:29:13 [Greg]
zakim, please part
18:29:13 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Jeanne, Greg_Lowney, Jan, kford, Kim_Patch, sharper
18:29:13 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
18:29:35 [Greg]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:29:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/14-ua-minutes.html Greg
18:29:42 [Greg]
rrsagent, please part
18:29:42 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/06/14-ua-actions.rdf :
18:29:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to replace platform accessibility language to updated as platform accessibility services thorughout document. [1]
18:29:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/06/14-ua-irc#T17-48-46