IRC log of eval on 2012-06-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:54:53 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #eval
13:54:53 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/14-eval-irc
13:54:55 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:54:55 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #eval
13:54:57 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 3825
13:54:57 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
13:54:58 [trackbot]
Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference
13:54:58 [trackbot]
Date: 14 June 2012
13:55:19 [Kathy]
zakim, mute me
13:55:19 [Zakim]
sorry, Kathy, I don't know what conference this is
13:55:52 [Detlev]
Detlev has joined #eval
13:56:16 [Liz]
Liz has joined #eval
13:56:40 [Kathy]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:56:40 [Zakim]
WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has not yet started, Kathy
13:56:41 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Liz, Detlev, Zakim, RRSAgent, Kathy, ssirois, MartijnHoutepen, shadi, trackbot
13:56:52 [korn]
korn has joined #eval
13:57:12 [vivienne]
vivienne has joined #eval
13:58:02 [shadi]
zakim, this is eval
13:58:02 [Zakim]
ok, shadi; that matches WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM
13:58:09 [Zakim]
+??P14
13:58:14 [shadi]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:58:14 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.520.271.aaaa, +1.978.443.aabb, +1.703.227.aacc, +1.301.975.aadd, +1.450.682.aaee, +31.30.239.aaff, Shadi, ??P14
13:58:15 [vivienne]
zakim, ??P14 is me
13:58:17 [Zakim]
+vivienne; got it
13:58:28 [ssirois]
zakim, aaee is me
13:58:28 [Zakim]
+ssirois; got it
13:58:31 [MartijnHoutepen]
zakim, aaff is me
13:58:31 [Zakim]
+MartijnHoutepen; got it
13:58:38 [Kathy]
zakim, aabb is me
13:58:38 [Zakim]
+Kathy; got it
13:58:48 [shadi]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:58:48 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.520.271.aaaa, Kathy, +1.703.227.aacc, +1.301.975.aadd, ssirois, MartijnHoutepen, Shadi, vivienne
13:58:50 [richard]
richard has joined #eval
13:59:00 [Zakim]
+ +49.404.318.aagg
13:59:02 [ssirois]
zakim, mute me
13:59:02 [Zakim]
ssirois should now be muted
13:59:08 [vivienne]
zakim, mute me
13:59:08 [Zakim]
vivienne should now be muted
13:59:13 [MartijnHoutepen]
zakim, mute me
13:59:13 [Zakim]
MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
13:59:14 [Zakim]
+[Oracle]
13:59:18 [korn]
Oracle is me
13:59:24 [Zakim]
+??P16
13:59:28 [Detlev]
Zakim, Detlev is aagg
13:59:28 [Zakim]
sorry, Detlev, I do not recognize a party named 'Detlev'
13:59:29 [korn]
zakim, Oracle is me
13:59:30 [Zakim]
+korn; got it
13:59:34 [shadi]
zakim, aagg is Detlev
13:59:34 [Zakim]
+Detlev; got it
13:59:35 [Zakim]
-??P16
13:59:43 [shadi]
zakim, mute detlev
13:59:43 [Zakim]
Detlev should now be muted
13:59:56 [Detlev]
Zakim, mute me
13:59:56 [Zakim]
Detlev was already muted, Detlev
14:00:13 [shadi]
zakim, aaaa is Don
14:00:13 [Zakim]
+Don; got it
14:00:33 [shadi]
zakim, aacc is Katie
14:00:33 [Zakim]
+Katie; got it
14:00:46 [Zakim]
+??P16
14:00:51 [Zakim]
-??P16
14:00:53 [shadi]
zakim, aadd is Liz
14:00:53 [Zakim]
+Liz; got it
14:00:58 [shadi]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:00:58 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Don, Kathy, Katie, Liz, ssirois (muted), MartijnHoutepen (muted), Shadi, vivienne (muted), Detlev (muted), korn
14:01:18 [Zakim]
+??P16
14:01:29 [Kathy]
zakim, mute me
14:01:29 [Zakim]
Kathy should now be muted
14:01:38 [ericvelleman]
ericvelleman has joined #eval
14:01:41 [shadi]
zakim, ??p16 is richard
14:01:46 [Zakim]
+richard; got it
14:02:09 [Sarah_Swierenga]
Sarah_Swierenga has joined #eval
14:02:38 [Zakim]
+ +31.30.239.aahh
14:02:42 [Zakim]
+ +1.517.432.aaii
14:02:49 [shadi]
ageda+ Questionnaire https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/48225/evaltf_q01/
14:02:55 [Ryladog]
Ryladog has joined #eval
14:03:06 [shadi]
agenda+ Disposition of Comments http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/comments
14:03:23 [shadi]
zakim, aahh is ericvelleman
14:03:24 [Zakim]
+ericvelleman; got it
14:03:34 [vivienne]
ack me
14:03:45 [agarrison]
agarrison has joined #eval
14:03:49 [shadi]
zakim, aaii is Sarah_Swierenga
14:03:49 [Zakim]
+Sarah_Swierenga; got it
14:04:04 [agarrison]
Running a little late... should be able to join soon.
14:04:24 [shadi]
chair: Eric
14:04:29 [shadi]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-evaltf/2012Jun/0055.html
14:04:42 [vivienne]
zakim, mute me
14:04:42 [Zakim]
vivienne should now be muted
14:04:46 [Zakim]
+ +1.517.353.aajj
14:05:15 [shadi]
zakim, aajj is Mike
14:05:15 [Zakim]
+Mike; got it
14:05:23 [shadi]
agenda?
14:05:30 [shadi]
scribe: Sarah
14:05:35 [shadi]
scribenick: Sarah_Swierenga
14:05:48 [shadi]
agenda+ Questionnaire https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/48225/evaltf_q01/
14:05:56 [shadi]
agenda order = 2,1
14:06:03 [shadi]
agenda?
14:06:13 [mike_elledge]
mike_elledge has joined #eval
14:06:18 [shadi]
zakim, take up agendum 2
14:06:18 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Questionnaire https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/48225/evaltf_q01/" taken up [from shadi]
14:06:31 [Zakim]
+??P33
14:06:35 [Sarah_Swierenga]
shadi: let's take the 2nd agenda item first.
14:06:46 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
14:06:46 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
14:06:58 [shadi]
zakim, ??p33 is agarrison
14:06:58 [Zakim]
+agarrison; got it
14:07:26 [shadi]
questionnaire results: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/48225/evaltf_q01/results
14:07:43 [Sarah_Swierenga]
eric: questionnaire - great discussion on the list
14:09:18 [Sarah_Swierenga]
eric: 1. okay with everyone (who responded)
14:09:32 [aurelien_levy]
aurelien_levy has joined #eval
14:09:58 [MoeKraft]
MoeKraft has joined #eval
14:09:59 [Sarah_Swierenga]
2. will add comment from Kerstin
14:10:25 [Zakim]
+ +1.978.899.aakk
14:10:50 [shadi]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:10:50 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Don, Kathy (muted), Katie, Liz, ssirois (muted), MartijnHoutepen (muted), Shadi (muted), vivienne (muted), Detlev (muted), korn, richard, ericvelleman,
14:10:54 [Zakim]
... Sarah_Swierenga, Mike, agarrison, +1.978.899.aakk
14:10:54 [ericvelleman]
q?
14:10:58 [shadi]
ack me
14:11:12 [MoeKraft]
Zakim, MoeKraft is +1.978.899.aakk
14:11:12 [Zakim]
sorry, MoeKraft, I do not recognize a party named 'MoeKraft'
14:11:13 [shadi]
zakim, aakk is MoeKraft
14:11:14 [Zakim]
+MoeKraft; got it
14:11:23 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
14:11:23 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
14:11:48 [shadi]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/48225/evaltf_q01/results#x2614
14:11:56 [Sarah_Swierenga]
peter: doc id 25 - evaluator name - a problem for some commercial organizations.
14:12:13 [Sarah_Swierenga]
eric: will clarify with kerstin
14:12:55 [Sarah_Swierenga]
eric: doc id 45 - Sample size - will come back to that later.
14:13:20 [Detlev]
q+
14:13:24 [Sarah_Swierenga]
Eric: everyone needs to fill out the questionnare - after the call today
14:13:41 [vivienne]
I think the questionnaire is a great idea, Eric.
14:13:48 [ericvelleman]
q?
14:13:50 [shadi]
q+
14:13:50 [Detlev]
ack me
14:14:16 [Sarah_Swierenga]
detlev: add the 3 questions from the email thread today - techniques
14:14:39 [shadi]
zakim, mute detlev
14:14:39 [Zakim]
Detlev should now be muted
14:14:43 [Detlev]
Zakim, mute me
14:14:43 [Zakim]
Detlev was already muted, Detlev
14:14:47 [Zakim]
-Detlev
14:15:35 [shadi]
q+
14:15:48 [Zakim]
+Detlev
14:15:49 [Zakim]
+??P9
14:15:53 [agarrison]
q+
14:16:05 [Detlev]
Zakim, mute me
14:16:05 [Zakim]
Detlev should now be muted
14:16:12 [aurelien_levy]
sorry being late
14:16:12 [Detlev]
ta
14:16:24 [vivienne]
I'm fine with 10
14:16:25 [korn]
NOt a problem.
14:16:28 [MartijnHoutepen]
no problem
14:16:33 [shadi]
zakim, unmute me
14:16:33 [Zakim]
Shadi should no longer be muted
14:16:36 [Sarah_Swierenga]
eric: is the number of questions okay?
14:16:42 [Sarah_Swierenga]
Sarah: +1
14:16:49 [Detlev]
ok
14:16:52 [mike_elledge]
+1
14:16:58 [Liz_]
Liz_ has joined #eval
14:16:59 [shadi]
zakim, ??p19 is aurelien_levy
14:16:59 [Zakim]
I already had ??P19 as +1.202.566.aadd, shadi
14:17:08 [shadi]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-evaltf/2012Jun/0056.html
14:18:22 [Zakim]
+??P40
14:18:26 [Sarah_Swierenga]
shadi: link is a summary of the email threads. comment 5 - let's try to close this today.
14:18:37 [korn]
q+
14:18:48 [korn]
zakim, who is noisy?
14:18:57 [Detlev]
someonme creates an echo . loudspeaker on?
14:18:59 [Zakim]
korn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 18 (25%), Shadi (70%), ericvelleman (9%), ??P40 (61%)
14:19:01 [Sarah_Swierenga]
shadi: doesn't recommend adding the email questions about techniques into this doc.
14:19:14 [Kerstin]
Kerstin has joined #eval
14:19:25 [shadi]
zakim, ??p40 is Kerstin
14:19:25 [Zakim]
+Kerstin; got it
14:19:34 [Kerstin]
zakim, mute me
14:19:34 [Zakim]
Kerstin should now be muted
14:19:43 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
14:19:43 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
14:20:21 [shadi]
ack me
14:20:22 [Detlev]
fine
14:20:30 [richard]
+1
14:20:41 [shadi]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/48225/evaltf_q01/results#x2614
14:20:43 [Sarah_Swierenga]
eric: most people accepted the proposed resolutions. can we assume that they are closed?
14:21:49 [Tim]
Tim has joined #eval
14:22:07 [Ryladog]
+1
14:22:10 [ericvelleman]
ericvelleman has joined #eval
14:22:14 [Kerstin]
+1
14:22:21 [korn]
q-
14:22:23 [Kerstin]
sorry
14:22:24 [Sarah_Swierenga]
shadi: kerstin comment 25 about having a named person. proposed solution: either the person's name or the name of the organization.
14:22:29 [Kerstin]
q
14:22:31 [shadi]
ack kers
14:23:02 [shadi]
zakim, mute
14:23:02 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'mute', shadi
14:23:06 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
14:23:06 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
14:23:12 [korn]
q+
14:23:20 [shadi]
ack me
14:23:32 [Sarah_Swierenga]
kerstin: without knowing the name or organization who did the testing, it will be impossible to tell who did the evaluation.
14:24:00 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
14:24:00 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
14:24:11 [shadi]
[[Evaluator
14:24:11 [shadi]
The person, team of people, organization, in-house department, or other entity responsible for carrying out the evaluation]]
14:24:52 [Sarah_Swierenga]
kerstin: the name is important. what kind of privacy issues are there.
14:25:19 [shadi]
q+
14:25:20 [Sarah_Swierenga]
eric: people inside the company may not want to be named. This is the example from Oracle.
14:25:28 [ericvelleman]
q?
14:25:38 [shadi]
zakim, mute kerstin
14:25:38 [Zakim]
Kerstin should now be muted
14:25:43 [Detlev]
echo again - loudspeaker on?
14:25:47 [Kerstin]
zakim, mute me
14:25:47 [Zakim]
Kerstin was already muted, Kerstin
14:25:54 [Ryladog]
q+
14:26:05 [korn]
Difficult to hear Alistair. Perhaps problem with speakerphone?
14:26:38 [Sarah_Swierenga]
alistair: emailed answer to questions on the email thread. wants them in the disposition of comments.
14:27:09 [ericvelleman]
q?
14:27:15 [shadi]
ack ag
14:27:33 [Sarah_Swierenga]
alistair: lots of emails going around. good discussion, but not everyone can read everything that's been written.
14:28:01 [Detlev]
Zakim, mute me
14:28:01 [Zakim]
Detlev was already muted, Detlev
14:28:10 [Sarah_Swierenga]
alistair: read the emails closely before responding. :-)
14:28:12 [MartijnHoutepen]
:-)
14:29:21 [Detlev]
there is a queue..
14:29:43 [Sarah_Swierenga]
eric: will add questions into the online disposition document.
14:31:16 [Zakim]
+Tim_Boland
14:31:20 [shadi]
ack korn
14:31:25 [ericvelleman]
q?
14:32:24 [Sarah_Swierenga]
peter: evaluator being a person or organization question - why do you want the name of the person included? We are not taking a position that the review needs to be done by a 3rd party. Putting in the company name seems sufficient.
14:32:27 [Kerstin]
q+
14:32:39 [shadi]
ack kerstin
14:32:41 [Kerstin]
zakim, unmute me
14:32:41 [Zakim]
Kerstin was not muted, Kerstin
14:33:47 [Sarah_Swierenga]
kerstin: the two aspects have a connection. for example, when testing a website, how can it be proven that it was an independent evaluation? need an independent second tester.
14:33:58 [agarrison]
Alistair: My point was for Eric to not add Shadi's summarised questions into the disposition - rather that we read all supporting emails from the list when we come to debate the 1e question which Eric has already included in the disposition.
14:34:46 [Sarah_Swierenga]
eric: there is a difference between somebody being independent and being from a third party. could be someone else from the same organization, but still independent.
14:35:05 [Sarah_Swierenga]
kerstin: doesn't agree, people from the same company could be biased.
14:35:17 [korn]
Is it a requirement of EvalTF and the charter for this work that the evaluation be independent? I thought that was out of scope of the methodology itself. So long as the independence (or lack thereof) is clear in the report, that should be enough.
14:35:20 [ericvelleman]
q?
14:35:23 [Sarah_Swierenga]
eric: evaluators don't need to be from a third party to be independent.
14:35:25 [shadi]
ack me
14:35:28 [Kerstin]
zakim, mute me
14:35:28 [Zakim]
Kerstin should now be muted
14:35:51 [shadi]
[[this document supports conformance evaluation in different contexts including self-assessment and third-party assessment of websites]]
14:35:52 [Sarah_Swierenga]
shadi: we are going around in circles, and the context of the document is important.
14:36:18 [shadi]
[[Evaluator - The person, team of people, organization, in-house department, or other entity responsible for carrying out the evaluation]]
14:36:51 [Sarah_Swierenga]
shadi: evaluators are actually entities carrying our the evaluation.
14:37:21 [Sarah_Swierenga]
shadi: could add clarification regarding in-house evaluators being independent.
14:38:42 [agarrison]
q+
14:38:44 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
14:38:44 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
14:38:48 [ericvelleman]
q?
14:38:50 [Sarah_Swierenga]
shadi: responding to alistair's comment - propose that people propose 'solutions' to issues on the email thread, rahter than just raising issues.
14:39:05 [shadi]
ack Ryladog
14:39:07 [Sarah_Swierenga]
katie: we don't need to identify an individual.
14:39:22 [Sarah_Swierenga]
eric: could have legal ramifications.
14:40:04 [Kerstin]
q+
14:40:06 [ericvelleman]
q?
14:41:01 [Sarah_Swierenga]
alistair: have to try to find out where people are coming from with regard to these questions and comments. garbled line....
14:41:24 [shadi]
s/propose 'solutions' to issues on the email thread, rahter than just raising issue/send specific proposals or change requests for discussion
14:41:53 [Kerstin]
zakim, unmute me
14:41:53 [Zakim]
Kerstin should no longer be muted
14:41:57 [shadi]
ack ag
14:42:03 [shadi]
ack ker
14:42:58 [Sarah_Swierenga]
kerstin: we have two types of evaluators: freelancers and organizations. freelancers have to give their name, but organizations are not held to the same standard.
14:43:33 [Detlev]
echo
14:43:36 [Kerstin]
zakim, mute me
14:43:36 [Zakim]
Kerstin should now be muted
14:43:40 [shadi]
ack me
14:43:53 [Sarah_Swierenga]
eric: can we close the other comments?
14:44:02 [Kerstin]
and it's a matter of transparency
14:44:07 [Sarah_Swierenga]
shadi: recommends closing the entire set of comments.
14:44:21 [Sarah_Swierenga]
sarah: +1 for closing comments
14:45:03 [Sarah_Swierenga]
sarah: refresh your browsers on the questionnaire - several people have filled it out while we've been on the call.
14:46:00 [Sarah_Swierenga]
shadi: there are many more than two types of evaluators. we have set the scope to be broad. not in our charter to prefer one method over another.
14:46:11 [shadi]
q?
14:46:24 [agarrison]
Putting your name is an issue of personal liability - a freelance should have protection through their own business insurances, a company as an entity should also have insurance - but putting an employees name could leave the employee personally exposed. So I don't think a person's name is necessary.
14:47:00 [Sarah_Swierenga]
eric: will consider this questionnaire items closed.
14:47:23 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
14:47:23 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
14:47:59 [Sarah_Swierenga]
eric: will take comments from email and proposed resolutions and add them into the next questionnnaire.
14:48:01 [shadi]
ack me
14:48:11 [Sarah_Swierenga]
eric: 10 items in questionnaire okay?
14:48:12 [vivienne]
I think 10 is a good number
14:48:16 [Detlev]
no close the 7
14:48:19 [Kathy]
I think no more than 10
14:48:55 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
14:48:55 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
14:49:06 [shadi]
ack me
14:49:08 [mike_elledge]
q+
14:49:21 [Sarah_Swierenga]
10 or so seems to be a good number of questions.
14:49:26 [Detlev]
queue
14:49:47 [shadi]
ack mike
14:50:20 [Sarah_Swierenga]
mike: asks a question about id/pw for getting into questionnaire. it's on the irc website.
14:50:30 [ssirois]
zakim, unmute me
14:50:30 [Zakim]
ssirois should no longer be muted
14:50:31 [MartijnHoutepen]
zakim, unmute me
14:50:31 [Zakim]
MartijnHoutepen should no longer be muted
14:50:36 [Sarah_Swierenga]
eric: closing the call 10 minutes early.
14:50:37 [vivienne]
good night all
14:50:38 [Kathy]
have a good rest of the day!
14:50:41 [Kathy]
bye
14:50:41 [mike_elledge]
Thanks!
14:50:42 [Zakim]
-Liz
14:50:42 [Detlev]
bye
14:50:42 [MoeKraft]
bye
14:50:43 [Zakim]
-Tim_Boland
14:50:43 [Kerstin]
thanks bye
14:50:44 [Sarah_Swierenga]
bye everyone!
14:50:44 [Zakim]
-korn
14:50:45 [vivienne]
-vivienne
14:50:45 [Zakim]
-ssirois
14:50:46 [Zakim]
-agarrison
14:50:46 [Zakim]
-Mike
14:50:47 [vivienne]
vivienne has left #eval
14:50:48 [Zakim]
-Katie
14:50:48 [Zakim]
-Don
14:50:49 [Zakim]
-Detlev
14:50:51 [Zakim]
-ericvelleman
14:50:52 [Zakim]
-Shadi
14:50:54 [Zakim]
-Kathy
14:50:56 [Zakim]
-Sarah_Swierenga
14:50:58 [MoeKraft]
MoeKraft has left #eval
14:50:58 [Zakim]
-richard
14:51:00 [Zakim]
-??P9
14:51:02 [Zakim]
-vivienne
14:51:04 [Zakim]
-MartijnHoutepen
14:51:09 [Zakim]
-Kerstin
14:51:10 [Zakim]
-MoeKraft
14:51:12 [Zakim]
WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has ended
14:51:14 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.520.271.aaaa, +1.978.443.aabb, +1.703.227.aacc, +1.301.975.aadd, +1.450.682.aaee, +31.30.239.aaff, Shadi, vivienne, ssirois, MartijnHoutepen, Kathy,
14:51:17 [Zakim]
... +49.404.318.aagg, korn, Detlev, Don, Katie, Liz, richard, +31.30.239.aahh, +1.517.432.aaii, ericvelleman, Sarah_Swierenga, +1.517.353.aajj, Mike, agarrison, +1.978.899.aakk,
14:51:20 [Zakim]
... MoeKraft, Kerstin, Tim_Boland
14:51:44 [korn]
korn has left #eval
16:25:15 [shadi]
trackbot, end meeting
16:25:15 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:25:15 [Zakim]
sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
16:25:23 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:25:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/14-eval-minutes.html trackbot
16:25:24 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:25:24 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items