13:54:53 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #eval
13:54:53 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/14-eval-irc
13:54:55 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:54:55 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #eval
13:54:57 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3825
13:54:57 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
13:54:58 <trackbot> Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference
13:54:58 <trackbot> Date: 14 June 2012
13:55:19 <Kathy> zakim, mute me
13:55:19 <Zakim> sorry, Kathy, I don't know what conference this is
13:55:52 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #eval
13:56:16 <Liz> Liz has joined #eval
13:56:40 <Kathy> zakim, who is on the phone?
13:56:40 <Zakim> WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has not yet started, Kathy
13:56:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see Liz, Detlev, Zakim, RRSAgent, Kathy, ssirois, MartijnHoutepen, shadi, trackbot
13:56:52 <korn> korn has joined #eval
13:57:12 <vivienne> vivienne has joined #eval
13:58:02 <shadi> zakim, this is eval
13:58:02 <Zakim> ok, shadi; that matches WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM
13:58:09 <Zakim> +??P14
13:58:14 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
13:58:14 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.520.271.aaaa, +1.978.443.aabb, +1.703.227.aacc, +1.301.975.aadd, +1.450.682.aaee, +31.30.239.aaff, Shadi, ??P14
13:58:15 <vivienne> zakim, ??P14 is me
13:58:17 <Zakim> +vivienne; got it
13:58:28 <ssirois> zakim, aaee is me
13:58:28 <Zakim> +ssirois; got it
13:58:31 <MartijnHoutepen> zakim, aaff is me
13:58:31 <Zakim> +MartijnHoutepen; got it
13:58:38 <Kathy> zakim, aabb is me
13:58:38 <Zakim> +Kathy; got it
13:58:48 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
13:58:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.520.271.aaaa, Kathy, +1.703.227.aacc, +1.301.975.aadd, ssirois, MartijnHoutepen, Shadi, vivienne
13:58:50 <richard> richard has joined #eval
13:59:00 <Zakim> + +49.404.318.aagg
13:59:02 <ssirois> zakim, mute me
13:59:02 <Zakim> ssirois should now be muted
13:59:08 <vivienne> zakim, mute me
13:59:08 <Zakim> vivienne should now be muted
13:59:13 <MartijnHoutepen> zakim, mute me
13:59:13 <Zakim> MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
13:59:14 <Zakim> +[Oracle]
13:59:18 <korn> Oracle is me
13:59:24 <Zakim> +??P16
13:59:28 <Detlev> Zakim, Detlev is aagg
13:59:28 <Zakim> sorry, Detlev, I do not recognize a party named 'Detlev'
13:59:29 <korn> zakim, Oracle is me
13:59:30 <Zakim> +korn; got it
13:59:34 <shadi> zakim, aagg is Detlev
13:59:34 <Zakim> +Detlev; got it
13:59:35 <Zakim> -??P16
13:59:43 <shadi> zakim, mute detlev
13:59:43 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
13:59:56 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
13:59:56 <Zakim> Detlev was already muted, Detlev
14:00:13 <shadi> zakim, aaaa is Don
14:00:13 <Zakim> +Don; got it
14:00:33 <shadi> zakim, aacc is Katie
14:00:33 <Zakim> +Katie; got it
14:00:46 <Zakim> +??P16
14:00:51 <Zakim> -??P16
14:00:53 <shadi> zakim, aadd is Liz
14:00:53 <Zakim> +Liz; got it
14:00:58 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:00:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see Don, Kathy, Katie, Liz, ssirois (muted), MartijnHoutepen (muted), Shadi, vivienne (muted), Detlev (muted), korn
14:01:18 <Zakim> +??P16
14:01:29 <Kathy> zakim, mute me
14:01:29 <Zakim> Kathy should now be muted
14:01:38 <ericvelleman> ericvelleman has joined #eval
14:01:41 <shadi> zakim, ??p16 is richard 
14:01:46 <Zakim> +richard; got it
14:02:09 <Sarah_Swierenga> Sarah_Swierenga has joined #eval
14:02:38 <Zakim> + +31.30.239.aahh
14:02:42 <Zakim> + +1.517.432.aaii
14:02:49 <shadi> ageda+ Questionnaire https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/48225/evaltf_q01/
14:02:55 <Ryladog> Ryladog has joined #eval
14:03:06 <shadi> agenda+ Disposition of Comments http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/comments
14:03:23 <shadi> zakim, aahh is ericvelleman 
14:03:24 <Zakim> +ericvelleman; got it
14:03:34 <vivienne> ack me
14:03:45 <agarrison> agarrison has joined #eval
14:03:49 <shadi> zakim, aaii is Sarah_Swierenga 
14:03:49 <Zakim> +Sarah_Swierenga; got it
14:04:04 <agarrison> Running a little late... should be able to join soon.
14:04:24 <shadi> chair: Eric
14:04:29 <shadi> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-evaltf/2012Jun/0055.html
14:04:42 <vivienne> zakim, mute me
14:04:42 <Zakim> vivienne should now be muted
14:04:46 <Zakim> + +1.517.353.aajj
14:05:15 <shadi> zakim, aajj is Mike
14:05:15 <Zakim> +Mike; got it
14:05:23 <shadi> agenda?
14:05:30 <shadi> scribe: Sarah
14:05:35 <shadi> scribenick: Sarah_Swierenga 
14:05:48 <shadi> agenda+ Questionnaire https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/48225/evaltf_q01/
14:05:56 <shadi> agenda order = 2,1
14:06:03 <shadi> agenda?
14:06:13 <mike_elledge> mike_elledge has joined #eval
14:06:18 <shadi> zakim, take up agendum 2
14:06:18 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Questionnaire https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/48225/evaltf_q01/" taken up [from shadi]
14:06:31 <Zakim> +??P33
14:06:35 <Sarah_Swierenga> shadi: let's take the 2nd agenda item first.
14:06:46 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:06:46 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:06:58 <shadi> zakim, ??p33 is agarrison 
14:06:58 <Zakim> +agarrison; got it
14:07:26 <shadi> questionnaire results: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/48225/evaltf_q01/results
14:07:43 <Sarah_Swierenga> eric: questionnaire - great discussion on the list
14:09:18 <Sarah_Swierenga> eric: 1. okay with everyone (who responded)
14:09:32 <aurelien_levy> aurelien_levy has joined #eval
14:09:58 <MoeKraft> MoeKraft has joined #eval
14:09:59 <Sarah_Swierenga> 2. will add comment from Kerstin
14:10:25 <Zakim> + +1.978.899.aakk
14:10:50 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:10:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see Don, Kathy (muted), Katie, Liz, ssirois (muted), MartijnHoutepen (muted), Shadi (muted), vivienne (muted), Detlev (muted), korn, richard, ericvelleman,
14:10:54 <Zakim> ... Sarah_Swierenga, Mike, agarrison, +1.978.899.aakk
14:10:54 <ericvelleman> q?
14:10:58 <shadi> ack me
14:11:12 <MoeKraft> Zakim, MoeKraft is +1.978.899.aakk
14:11:12 <Zakim> sorry, MoeKraft, I do not recognize a party named 'MoeKraft'
14:11:13 <shadi> zakim, aakk is MoeKraft 
14:11:14 <Zakim> +MoeKraft; got it
14:11:23 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:11:23 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:11:48 <shadi> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/48225/evaltf_q01/results#x2614
14:11:56 <Sarah_Swierenga> peter: doc id 25 - evaluator name - a problem for some commercial organizations. 
14:12:13 <Sarah_Swierenga> eric: will clarify with kerstin
14:12:55 <Sarah_Swierenga> eric: doc id 45 - Sample size - will come back to that later.
14:13:20 <Detlev> q+
14:13:24 <Sarah_Swierenga> Eric: everyone needs to fill out the questionnare - after the call today
14:13:41 <vivienne> I think the questionnaire is a great idea, Eric.
14:13:48 <ericvelleman> q?
14:13:50 <shadi> q+
14:13:50 <Detlev> ack me
14:14:16 <Sarah_Swierenga> detlev: add the 3 questions from the email thread today - techniques
14:14:39 <shadi> zakim, mute detlev
14:14:39 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
14:14:43 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
14:14:43 <Zakim> Detlev was already muted, Detlev
14:14:47 <Zakim> -Detlev
14:15:35 <shadi> q+
14:15:48 <Zakim> +Detlev
14:15:49 <Zakim> +??P9
14:15:53 <agarrison> q+
14:16:05 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
14:16:05 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
14:16:12 <aurelien_levy> sorry being late
14:16:12 <Detlev> ta
14:16:24 <vivienne> I'm fine with 10
14:16:25 <korn> NOt a problem.
14:16:28 <MartijnHoutepen> no problem
14:16:33 <shadi> zakim, unmute me
14:16:33 <Zakim> Shadi should no longer be muted
14:16:36 <Sarah_Swierenga> eric: is the number of questions okay?
14:16:42 <Sarah_Swierenga> Sarah: +1
14:16:49 <Detlev> ok
14:16:52 <mike_elledge> +1
14:16:58 <Liz_> Liz_ has joined #eval
14:16:59 <shadi> zakim, ??p19 is aurelien_levy 
14:16:59 <Zakim> I already had ??P19 as +1.202.566.aadd, shadi
14:17:08 <shadi> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-evaltf/2012Jun/0056.html
14:18:22 <Zakim> +??P40
14:18:26 <Sarah_Swierenga> shadi: link is a summary of the email threads. comment 5 - let's try to close this today. 
14:18:37 <korn> q+
14:18:48 <korn> zakim, who is noisy?
14:18:57 <Detlev> someonme creates an echo . loudspeaker on?
14:18:59 <Zakim> korn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 18 (25%), Shadi (70%), ericvelleman (9%), ??P40 (61%)
14:19:01 <Sarah_Swierenga> shadi: doesn't recommend adding the email questions about techniques into this doc.
14:19:14 <Kerstin> Kerstin has joined #eval
14:19:25 <shadi> zakim, ??p40 is Kerstin 
14:19:25 <Zakim> +Kerstin; got it
14:19:34 <Kerstin> zakim, mute me
14:19:34 <Zakim> Kerstin should now be muted
14:19:43 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:19:43 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:20:21 <shadi> ack me
14:20:22 <Detlev> fine
14:20:30 <richard> +1
14:20:41 <shadi> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/48225/evaltf_q01/results#x2614
14:20:43 <Sarah_Swierenga> eric: most people accepted the proposed resolutions. can we assume that they are closed?
14:21:49 <Tim> Tim has joined #eval
14:22:07 <Ryladog> +1
14:22:10 <ericvelleman> ericvelleman has joined #eval
14:22:14 <Kerstin> +1
14:22:21 <korn> q-
14:22:23 <Kerstin> sorry
14:22:24 <Sarah_Swierenga> shadi: kerstin comment 25 about having a named person. proposed solution: either the person's name or the name of the organization.
14:22:29 <Kerstin> q
14:22:31 <shadi> ack kers
14:23:02 <shadi> zakim, mute
14:23:02 <Zakim> I don't understand 'mute', shadi
14:23:06 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:23:06 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:23:12 <korn> q+
14:23:20 <shadi> ack me
14:23:32 <Sarah_Swierenga> kerstin: without knowing the name or organization who did the testing, it will be impossible to tell who did the evaluation.
14:24:00 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:24:00 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:24:11 <shadi> [[Evaluator
14:24:11 <shadi>     The person, team of people, organization, in-house department, or other entity responsible for carrying out the evaluation]]
14:24:52 <Sarah_Swierenga> kerstin: the name is important. what kind of privacy issues are there.
14:25:19 <shadi> q+
14:25:20 <Sarah_Swierenga> eric: people inside the company may not want to be named. This is the example from Oracle.
14:25:28 <ericvelleman> q?
14:25:38 <shadi> zakim, mute kerstin
14:25:38 <Zakim> Kerstin should now be muted
14:25:43 <Detlev> echo again - loudspeaker on?
14:25:47 <Kerstin> zakim, mute me
14:25:47 <Zakim> Kerstin was already muted, Kerstin
14:25:54 <Ryladog> q+
14:26:05 <korn> Difficult to hear Alistair.  Perhaps problem with speakerphone?
14:26:38 <Sarah_Swierenga> alistair: emailed answer to questions on the email thread. wants them in the disposition of comments.
14:27:09 <ericvelleman> q?
14:27:15 <shadi> ack ag
14:27:33 <Sarah_Swierenga> alistair: lots of emails going around. good discussion, but not everyone can read everything that's been written. 
14:28:01 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
14:28:01 <Zakim> Detlev was already muted, Detlev
14:28:10 <Sarah_Swierenga> alistair: read the emails closely before responding. :-)
14:28:12 <MartijnHoutepen> :-)
14:29:21 <Detlev> there is a queue..
14:29:43 <Sarah_Swierenga> eric: will add questions into the online disposition document.
14:31:16 <Zakim> +Tim_Boland
14:31:20 <shadi> ack korn
14:31:25 <ericvelleman> q?
14:32:24 <Sarah_Swierenga> peter: evaluator being a person or organization question - why do you want the name of the person included? We are not taking a position that the review needs to be done by a 3rd party. Putting in the company name seems sufficient.
14:32:27 <Kerstin> q+
14:32:39 <shadi> ack kerstin
14:32:41 <Kerstin> zakim, unmute me
14:32:41 <Zakim> Kerstin was not muted, Kerstin
14:33:47 <Sarah_Swierenga> kerstin: the two aspects have a connection. for example, when testing a website, how can it be proven that it was an independent evaluation? need an independent second tester.
14:33:58 <agarrison> Alistair: My point was for Eric to not add Shadi's summarised questions into the disposition - rather that we read all supporting emails from the list when we come to debate the 1e question which Eric has already included in the disposition.
14:34:46 <Sarah_Swierenga> eric: there is a difference between somebody being independent and being from a third party. could be someone else from the same organization, but still independent.
14:35:05 <Sarah_Swierenga> kerstin: doesn't agree, people from the same company could be biased.
14:35:17 <korn> Is it a requirement of EvalTF and the charter for this work that the evaluation be independent?  I thought that was out of scope of the methodology itself.  So long as the independence (or lack thereof) is clear in the report, that should be enough.
14:35:20 <ericvelleman> q?
14:35:23 <Sarah_Swierenga> eric: evaluators don't need to be from a third party to be independent.
14:35:25 <shadi> ack me
14:35:28 <Kerstin> zakim, mute me
14:35:28 <Zakim> Kerstin should now be muted
14:35:51 <shadi> [[this document supports conformance evaluation in different contexts including self-assessment and third-party assessment of websites]]
14:35:52 <Sarah_Swierenga> shadi: we are going around in circles, and the context of the document is important.
14:36:18 <shadi> [[Evaluator - The person, team of people, organization, in-house department, or other entity responsible for carrying out the evaluation]]
14:36:51 <Sarah_Swierenga> shadi: evaluators are actually entities carrying our the evaluation.
14:37:21 <Sarah_Swierenga> shadi: could add clarification regarding in-house evaluators being independent.
14:38:42 <agarrison> q+
14:38:44 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:38:44 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:38:48 <ericvelleman> q?
14:38:50 <Sarah_Swierenga> shadi: responding to alistair's comment - propose that people propose 'solutions' to issues on the email thread, rahter than just raising issues.
14:39:05 <shadi> ack Ryladog 
14:39:07 <Sarah_Swierenga> katie: we don't need to identify an individual.
14:39:22 <Sarah_Swierenga> eric: could have legal ramifications.
14:40:04 <Kerstin> q+
14:40:06 <ericvelleman> q?
14:41:01 <Sarah_Swierenga> alistair: have to try to find out where people are coming from with regard to these questions and comments. garbled line....
14:41:24 <shadi> s/propose 'solutions' to issues on the email thread, rahter than just raising issue/send specific proposals or change requests for discussion
14:41:53 <Kerstin> zakim, unmute me
14:41:53 <Zakim> Kerstin should no longer be muted
14:41:57 <shadi> ack ag
14:42:03 <shadi> ack ker
14:42:58 <Sarah_Swierenga> kerstin: we have two types of evaluators: freelancers and organizations. freelancers have to give their name, but organizations are not held to the same standard. 
14:43:33 <Detlev> echo
14:43:36 <Kerstin> zakim, mute me
14:43:36 <Zakim> Kerstin should now be muted
14:43:40 <shadi> ack me
14:43:53 <Sarah_Swierenga> eric: can we close the other comments?
14:44:02 <Kerstin> and it's a matter of transparency
14:44:07 <Sarah_Swierenga> shadi: recommends closing the entire set of comments.
14:44:21 <Sarah_Swierenga> sarah: +1 for closing comments
14:45:03 <Sarah_Swierenga> sarah: refresh your browsers on the questionnaire - several people have filled it out while we've been on the call.
14:46:00 <Sarah_Swierenga> shadi: there are many more than two types of evaluators. we have set the scope to be broad. not in our charter to prefer one method over another.
14:46:11 <shadi> q?
14:46:24 <agarrison> Putting your name is an issue of personal liability - a freelance should have protection through their own business insurances, a company as an entity should also have insurance - but putting an employees name could leave the employee personally exposed.  So I don't think a person's name is necessary. 
14:47:00 <Sarah_Swierenga> eric: will consider this questionnaire items closed.
14:47:23 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:47:23 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:47:59 <Sarah_Swierenga> eric: will take comments from email and proposed resolutions and add them into the next questionnnaire.
14:48:01 <shadi> ack me
14:48:11 <Sarah_Swierenga> eric: 10 items in questionnaire okay?
14:48:12 <vivienne> I think 10 is a good number
14:48:16 <Detlev> no close the 7
14:48:19 <Kathy> I think no more than 10
14:48:55 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:48:55 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:49:06 <shadi> ack me
14:49:08 <mike_elledge> q+
14:49:21 <Sarah_Swierenga> 10 or so seems to be a good number of questions.
14:49:26 <Detlev> queue
14:49:47 <shadi> ack  mike
14:50:20 <Sarah_Swierenga> mike: asks a question about id/pw for getting into questionnaire. it's on the irc website.
14:50:30 <ssirois> zakim, unmute me
14:50:30 <Zakim> ssirois should no longer be muted
14:50:31 <MartijnHoutepen> zakim, unmute me
14:50:31 <Zakim> MartijnHoutepen should no longer be muted
14:50:36 <Sarah_Swierenga> eric: closing the call 10 minutes early. 
14:50:37 <vivienne> good night all
14:50:38 <Kathy> have a good rest of the day!
14:50:41 <Kathy> bye
14:50:41 <mike_elledge> Thanks!
14:50:42 <Zakim> -Liz
14:50:42 <Detlev> bye
14:50:42 <MoeKraft> bye
14:50:43 <Zakim> -Tim_Boland
14:50:43 <Kerstin> thanks bye
14:50:44 <Sarah_Swierenga> bye everyone!
14:50:44 <Zakim> -korn
14:50:45 <vivienne> -vivienne
14:50:45 <Zakim> -ssirois
14:50:46 <Zakim> -agarrison
14:50:46 <Zakim> -Mike
14:50:47 <vivienne> vivienne has left #eval
14:50:48 <Zakim> -Katie
14:50:48 <Zakim> -Don
14:50:49 <Zakim> -Detlev
14:50:51 <Zakim> -ericvelleman
14:50:52 <Zakim> -Shadi
14:50:54 <Zakim> -Kathy
14:50:56 <Zakim> -Sarah_Swierenga
14:50:58 <MoeKraft> MoeKraft has left #eval
14:50:58 <Zakim> -richard
14:51:00 <Zakim> -??P9
14:51:02 <Zakim> -vivienne
14:51:04 <Zakim> -MartijnHoutepen
14:51:09 <Zakim> -Kerstin
14:51:10 <Zakim> -MoeKraft
14:51:12 <Zakim> WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has ended
14:51:14 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.520.271.aaaa, +1.978.443.aabb, +1.703.227.aacc, +1.301.975.aadd, +1.450.682.aaee, +31.30.239.aaff, Shadi, vivienne, ssirois, MartijnHoutepen, Kathy,
14:51:17 <Zakim> ... +49.404.318.aagg, korn, Detlev, Don, Katie, Liz, richard, +31.30.239.aahh, +1.517.432.aaii, ericvelleman, Sarah_Swierenga, +1.517.353.aajj, Mike, agarrison, +1.978.899.aakk,
14:51:20 <Zakim> ... MoeKraft, Kerstin, Tim_Boland
14:51:44 <korn> korn has left #eval
16:25:15 <shadi> trackbot, end meeting
16:25:15 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:25:15 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
16:25:23 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:25:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/14-eval-minutes.html trackbot
16:25:24 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:25:24 <RRSAgent> I see no action items