14:51:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
14:51:46 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/13-i18n-irc
14:51:54 <aphillip> trackbot, prepare teleconference
14:51:57 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:51:59 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 4186
14:51:59 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
14:52:00 <trackbot> Meeting: Internationalization Core Working Group Teleconference
14:52:00 <trackbot> Date: 13 June 2012
14:52:20 <aphillip> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2012Jun/0001.html
14:52:40 <aphillip> Chair: Addison Phillips
14:52:44 <aphillip> Scribe: Addison Phillips
14:52:55 <aphillip> ScribeNick: aphillip
14:53:00 <aphillip> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:53:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/13-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
14:58:13 <koji> koji has joined #i18n
14:59:47 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has now started
14:59:54 <Zakim> +??P3
15:01:57 <matial> matial has joined #i18n
15:01:58 <Zakim> +??P15
15:02:02 <CGI752> CGI752 has joined #i18n
15:02:05 <koji> zakim, ??p15 is me
15:02:10 <Zakim> +koji; got it
15:02:20 <Zakim> +Addison_Phillips
15:02:52 <Zakim> +??P20
15:02:58 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
15:03:03 <matial> zakim, ??p20 is me
15:03:08 <Zakim> +matial; got it
15:03:16 <aphillip> zakim, ??P3 is andrewc
15:03:20 <Gwyneth> Gwyneth has joined #i18n
15:03:27 <Zakim> +andrewc; got it
15:06:40 <aphillip> Topic: Agenda and Minutes
15:06:59 <aphillip> Topic: Action Items
15:07:01 <Norbert> Norbert has joined #i18n
15:07:23 <aphillip> close ACTION-101
15:07:24 <trackbot> ACTION-101 Extend number of ports for I18N call to 15 closed
15:07:25 <Zakim> + +972.7.474.6aaaa
15:07:46 <aharon> aharon has joined #i18n
15:07:55 <Zakim> + +1.415.885.aabb
15:08:13 <aphillip> ACTION-109: koji: haven't heard back, will ping again
15:08:13 <trackbot> ACTION-109 Check about Korean layout task force notes added
15:08:30 <Norbert> zakim, +1.415 is me
15:08:30 <Zakim> +Norbert; got it
15:10:14 <aphillip> close ACTION-130
15:10:14 <trackbot> ACTION-130 Write to www-international, including decriptions of other lists from about page, announcing changes in our use of list closed
15:10:40 <aphillip>  Topic: Info Share
15:11:09 <aphillip> andrew: working for state gov't creating guidelines on how they use translations on the web
15:11:20 <aphillip> ... especially focusing on new/emerging languages
15:11:37 <aphillip> ... that have limited support
15:11:42 <aphillip> ... will be probably public
15:12:20 <aphillip> Topic: IRI and IRI bidi documents
15:13:01 <aphillip> http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Review_radar
15:13:20 <aphillip> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-iri-3987bis-09
15:13:31 <aphillip> http://tools.ietf.org/pdf/draft-ietf-iri-bidi-guidelines-00
15:13:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/13-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:14:38 <aphillip> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-iri-3987bis-11
15:16:08 <aphillip> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-iri-comparison-01
15:17:19 <aphillip> Norbert: thought comparison document looked fine
15:17:59 <aphillip> matial: no problem with it
15:19:52 <aphillip> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-iri-bidi-guidelines-02
15:25:20 <aphillip> matial: may be different for hebrew vs. arabic users
15:25:28 <aphillip> ... or even between individual users
15:25:47 <aphillip> ... still trying to do usability tests
15:26:12 <aphillip> matial: one thing I don't like in document is that there is too much freedom
15:26:33 <aphillip> ... not as critical what we decide as long as mandatory
15:26:44 <aphillip> ... e.g. in Section 3 
15:26:56 <aphillip> ... talks about components
15:27:02 <aphillip> ... domain, segment, etc.
15:27:17 <aphillip> ... each one should laid out independently of other components
15:27:32 <aphillip> ... and then components can be subdivided, such as labels in domain names
15:28:14 <aphillip> ... but if labels allowed to swap (or not) in implementations, it should be consistent
15:28:21 <aphillip> ... be normative rather than optional
15:29:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/13-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:29:58 <aphillip> matial: once we have a consensus, it should be enforced
15:31:11 <aphillip> Norbert: trying to specify "what is a good bidi iri"
15:31:24 <aphillip> ... but spoofers are not interested in "good bidi IRIs"
15:32:02 <aphillip> ... so standard needs to specify what happens (reject, color address bar)
15:36:38 <aphillip> addison: are we ready to say something (and what)
15:36:53 <aphillip> matial: way to display IRIs should become unique for all browsers
15:37:07 <aphillip> addison; consistent, right?
15:37:22 <aphillip> matial: same IRI displayed same way in all user-agents
15:38:11 <matial> draft email
15:38:26 <aphillip> addison: draft email about sense of WG? or come back next week? preference?
15:38:48 <aphillip> norbert: there is no consensus in IRI community
15:40:27 <aphillip> addison: problem is that there is diversity of opinion and we're unlikely to achieve a consensus of "100% minus one person"
15:40:54 <aphillip> foo/bar/baz/example.com://http
15:43:59 <aphillip> aharon: side of bus is RTL, and works when typed in, but when some LTR thing is added to the URL, the whole thing changes direction, alarming user
15:44:44 <aphillip> addison: some sense of a base implicit direction of LTR
15:45:47 <aphillip> aharon: anyone with a RTL domain name will be unhappy if the domain is in LTR context
15:45:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/13-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:46:29 <aphillip> ... think there will be strong objections to consistently LTR IRIs
15:47:36 <aphillip> addison: other possibility is that it's insoluable and doesn't get (need to get) solved
15:47:42 <aphillip> ... just guidelines for IRI beauty
15:48:13 <aphillip> aharon: if you have an all RTL domain name/site name, you should take pains to create all RTL URIs (including path)
15:48:19 <aphillip> ... if you don't, it'll look ugly
15:48:28 <aphillip> ... but limit to how much those guidelines will be possible to follow
15:48:45 <aphillip> ... since parts such as query can't be fully controlled
15:49:07 <aphillip> ... or parts of the domain may be just an alias for an LTR name
15:49:46 <aphillip> ... would be value in publishing guideline
15:50:38 <aphillip> andrew: two basic scenarios
15:50:55 <aphillip> ... IRI that is fully LTR and IRI that is fully RTL---both work consistently
15:51:07 <aphillip> ... when you mix that the problem occurs
15:51:25 <aphillip> ... so guidance on how to display
15:51:29 <aphillip> ... and guidance to e.g. CMS developers
15:51:44 <aphillip> ... so that they can implement in ways that makes sense and works
15:52:57 <aphillip> addison: so... what to do/say at this point?
15:54:38 <aphillip> ... cut to chase with "guidelines"? or "normative display"? or?
15:55:13 <aphillip> aharon: what about giving user preferences time to shake out, give time to user testing
15:55:27 <aphillip> matial: some testing planned, but not happening yet
15:56:10 <aphillip> ... users of different proficiency how they perceive IRI (such as napkin/bus)
15:56:18 <aphillip> ... or when told, how they write it
15:56:53 <aphillip> ... hopefully these not-as-extensive-as-maybe-would-like will give us a sense
15:57:08 <aphillip> ... maybe get results in the next two or three months
15:57:17 <aphillip> ... but may get different results
15:57:24 <aphillip> ... maybe indication
15:57:33 <aphillip> ... might not be perfect
15:57:41 <aphillip> ... but solve simple cases
15:59:40 <aphillip> ... based on TLD, which is unlikely to change
16:00:14 <aphillip> com.EGYPT
16:00:37 <aphillip> EGYPT.com
16:02:01 <aphillip> com.tpyge
16:02:50 <Norbert> مصر.com
16:05:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/13-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:08:29 <aphillip> norbert: e.g. if you have entirely RTL domain name, you can do one thing
16:08:37 <koji> sorry, I've got go...
16:08:40 <aphillip> .. but also have to say how to make spoofs detected
16:09:06 <aphillip>  Topic: AOB?
16:09:23 <aphillip> norbert: will there be user tests of IRIs in Arabic speaking countries?
16:09:32 <aphillip> gwyneth: can follow up with Shawn
16:10:48 <aphillip> addison: for next time? 
16:10:54 <aphillip> norbert 3987bis and ruby?
16:11:07 <aphillip> addison: no objections?
16:11:22 <aphillip> ... will send links
16:11:39 <andrewc> مصر.com
16:12:07 <aphillip> andrew: which is TLD?
16:13:48 <Zakim> -Gwyneth
16:13:52 <Zakim> -aphillip
16:13:53 <Zakim> -matial
16:13:55 <Zakim> - +972.7.474.6aaaa
16:13:57 <Zakim> -koji
16:14:00 <Zakim> -Norbert
16:14:01 <Zakim> -andrewc
16:14:04 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has ended
16:14:06 <Zakim> Attendees were koji, aphillip, matial, andrewc, Gwyneth, +972.7.474.6aaaa, +1.415.885.aabb, Norbert
16:14:06 <aharon> aharon has left #i18n
16:45:54 <aphillip> rrsagent, make minutes
16:45:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/13-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:45:59 <aphillip> zakim, bye
16:45:59 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18n
16:46:04 <aphillip> rrsagent, bye
16:46:04 <RRSAgent> I see no action items