14:20:23 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
14:20:23 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/13-forms-irc
14:20:25 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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14:20:27 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_XForms
14:20:27 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_XForms()11:00AM scheduled to start in 40 minutes
14:20:28 <trackbot> Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference
14:20:28 <trackbot> Date: 13 June 2012
14:57:36 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
15:00:20 <nvdbleek> zakim, code? 
15:00:20 <Zakim> the conference code is 93676 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek
15:00:25 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has now started
15:00:33 <Zakim> + +44.782.483.aaaa
15:01:09 <Zakim> + +1.323.425.aabb
15:01:28 <nvdbleek> zakim, I am +1.323.425
15:01:28 <Zakim> +nvdbleek; got it
15:02:34 <alain> alain has joined #forms
15:03:04 <Zakim> +??P21
15:03:16 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has joined #forms
15:03:28 <Steven_> Steven_ has joined #forms
15:03:36 <Zakim> + +1.650.919.aacc
15:03:39 <ebruchez> zakim, +??P21 is ebruchez
15:03:51 <Zakim> sorry, ebruchez, I do not recognize a party named '+??P21'
15:03:55 <Zakim> +??P25
15:04:00 <ebruchez> zakim, ??P21 is ebruchez
15:04:07 <Zakim> +ebruchez; got it
15:04:08 <Steven> zakim, I am ??P25
15:04:14 <Zakim> +Steven; got it
15:04:28 <Steven> zakim, who is on the line?
15:04:30 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, Steven.
15:04:41 <Steven> zakim, who is on the call?
15:04:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see +44.782.483.aaaa, nvdbleek, ebruchez, +1.650.919.aacc, Steven
15:04:58 <Steven> zakim, aaaa is Philip
15:04:58 <Zakim> +Philip; got it
15:05:14 <Steven> zakim, aacc is John_Boyer
15:05:15 <Zakim> +John_Boyer; got it
15:05:24 <Steven> zakim, who is on the call?
15:05:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see Philip, nvdbleek, ebruchez, John_Boyer, Steven
15:05:39 <Zakim> +John_Boyer.a
15:05:58 <Steven> zakim, John_Boyer is alain
15:05:58 <Zakim> +alain; got it
15:06:10 <Steven> zakim, who is on the call?
15:06:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see Philip, nvdbleek, ebruchez, alain, Steven, John_Boyer.a
15:06:49 <Steven> Regrets: Kurt
15:07:04 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012Jun/0008
15:08:17 <John_Boyer> scribe: John_Boyer
15:08:32 <nvdbleek1> nvdbleek1 has joined #forms
15:09:07 <John_Boyer> TOPIC: Report from Steven on Seneca
15:09:34 <John_Boyer> Steven: CMS company, very enthusiastic about XForms
15:10:07 <John_Boyer> Steven: They have an XForms implementation with some very nice features
15:10:31 <John_Boyer> Steven: a whole workplace, an xform rendition, validation area, etc.
15:10:56 <John_Boyer> Steven: They have a design tool.  They can also can convert an HTML form to XForms with copy-paste ease
15:11:21 <John_Boyer> Steven: They want to be a member of the working group
15:11:31 <John_Boyer> Steven: working on OK from their management
15:11:46 <John_Boyer> Steven: They also want to do a workshop on XForms business and/or government
15:12:46 <John_Boyer> John: Thanks Steven, that is a great and motivating report, Thanks for visiting them
15:12:55 <Steven>  Topic: Namespace for functions
15:12:57 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012May/0034.html
15:13:09 <John_Boyer> Topic: Namespace for functions
15:14:03 <John_Boyer> Steven: can we resolve this namepace change?
15:14:31 <John_Boyer> RESOLUTION: Functions go into XForms (2003) namespace
15:15:02 <Steven> * Topic: Special changes for Common @model and @context
15:15:16 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012Jun/0003.html
15:15:25 <Steven> s/* Topic/Topic/
15:15:43 <John_Boyer> Topic: Special changes for Common @model and @context
15:17:56 <nvdbleek> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_2.0#The_header_Element
15:18:27 <Steven> Nick: Is it allowed on insert as well?
15:18:43 <Steven> ... you did it for header, var and bind?
15:18:46 <Steven> John: Yes
15:18:53 <Steven> Nick: Why not on actions?
15:19:21 <Steven> John: We're trying to ensure data doesn't travel between models
15:19:47 <Steven> ... a var makes the variable available in teh model, but if a var can point to other  vars, it can bring values from other models
15:20:01 <Steven> ... we should discuss this
15:20:08 <Steven> s/teh/the/
15:20:17 <Steven> John: THere's a non-normative note about actions
15:20:22 <Steven> s/TH/Th/
15:21:37 <John_Boyer> Nick: Why isn't model allowed on var?
15:21:53 <Steven> Erik: What about dispatch?
15:22:33 <Steven> Nick: dispatch could mix models
15:22:46 <Steven> John: But there's no cross-model data-dependency
15:22:51 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer: var would then consume data from one model and pull it into another model
15:22:58 <Steven> ... didn't we already have that problem?
15:23:14 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer: in the past we've had this rule of thumb to avoid creating cross-model data dependencies
15:24:22 <nvdbleek> http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#action-dispatch
15:24:29 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer: When model is used on an insert, delete or setvalue, it resets the context of the whole action
15:24:31 <Steven> John_Boyer: We made need to create more restrictions to handle those
15:26:29 <Steven> s/made/may/
15:26:48 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer: It sounds pretty safe that children of dispatch could bind to different models because the result is an event
15:27:09 <John_Boyer> Nick: Not sure why there is a limitation on switching models with var
15:29:21 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer: I could see removing the restriction on both var and header; the real issue was crossing models on the bind element due to cross-model dependencies
15:30:27 <John_Boyer> Erik: Would actions within the model have any restrictions?  I think they don't
15:31:52 <John_Boyer> RESOLUTION: Remove restriction on model from header and var, leave restriction to current model on bind element
15:32:09 <John_Boyer> ACTION: Nick to Remove restriction on model from header and var, leave restriction to current model on bind element
15:32:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1906 - Remove restriction on model from header and var, leave restriction to current model on bind element [on Nick Van Den Bleeken - due 2012-06-20].
15:33:37 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer: Erik I agree no restrictions on model attributes of actions in a model, neither before nor now
15:34:23 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer: Only other thing I did was change description of rebuild, recalculate, revalidate, refresh and reset, which used to have model as special attributes
15:34:34 <Steven> Topic: Spec review
15:34:37 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012Jun/0006.html
15:34:57 <Steven> s/Topic: Spec review//
15:35:03 <John_Boyer> Topic: Promote model attribute to common attribute group
15:35:09 <John_Boyer> Steven: This is now down
15:35:16 <Steven> s/down/done/
15:35:20 <John_Boyer> Topic: Spec review
15:35:28 <John_Boyer> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012Jun/0006.html
15:36:29 <John_Boyer> Nick: yes I think we agreed to that, but there is a lot of work in the spec to do that
15:36:53 <John_Boyer> Erik: My concern is that I don't yet know what to implement, and all that needs to be specified
15:38:50 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer: Do we need Alain to give us a description of what got implemented for load/@show=embed?
15:39:01 <John_Boyer> Nick: input from community group?
15:40:19 <John_Boyer> Alain: Yes we implemented, and the implementation is compatible with betterForm.  BetterForm has some extension functions that XSLTForms doesn't implement, but the baseline is there.
15:40:48 <John_Boyer> Erik: It would help to have an email with a few bullet points to describe implementation issues like what to do with IDs, events, models, etc.
15:42:25 <John_Boyer> ACTION: Alain to send email to working group with further implementation details for load/@show=embed that describes how the implementation works and how it handles issues like IDs, event propagation, embedded models, etc.
15:42:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1907 - Send email to working group with further implementation details for load/@show=embed that describes how the implementation works and how it handles issues like IDs, event propagation, embedded models, etc. [on Alain Couthures - due 2012-06-20].
15:42:40 <John_Boyer> Alain: it is very useful to have load/@show=embed for subforms
15:43:25 <John_Boyer> Steven: Any other spec review issues?
15:43:44 <John_Boyer> Nick: There was an override issue, but it could be covered after FPWD
15:44:22 <John_Boyer> Nick: I added an override feature for XPath functions, like what is in XSLT
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15:46:07 <John_Boyer> Erik: You can implement a function in XSLT to make sure an implementation is there, and override lets you decide whether to let a native implementation override or override the native implemenation with the one in the XSLT
15:47:09 <John_Boyer> Erik: Not sure the override feature is critical for XForms, but it is in XSLT
15:47:33 <John_Boyer> Erik: Could ask Michael Kay what he thinks about the value of the override feature
15:47:53 <John_Boyer> Erik: We have to weigh value versus implementation difficulty
15:48:53 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer: Is it a security problem to let a document arriving and overriding functions in the native implementation?
15:49:20 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer: I mean, when the XForm is running in the browser.
15:49:29 <John_Boyer> Nick: XSLT has the same problem
15:49:38 <John_Boyer> Nick: When running in a browser
15:50:57 <nvdbleek> Nick: An implementation may have a custom function that isn't behaving as the form expects, in those cases it is desirable to override the function
15:51:01 <John_Boyer> Erik: an implementation won't let you crush a native implementation. It's a local change
15:51:30 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer: I don't understand; does the override feature specify that it only makes a local change?
15:51:56 <nvdbleek> Nick: Another use case is that you specify the function in both script and native xforms and don't wan't to override the script version if the processor supports the script language
15:57:02 <John_Boyer> Erik: No, an overriding function in an xform could override a function provided by the xforms processor
15:57:48 <nvdbleek> but only extension functions, not functions in the XForms namespace nor in the xpath function namespace
15:58:07 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer: It seems off that an xforms processor defined function could be overridden
15:58:38 <John_Boyer> Erik: We could say that override only applies to extension functions, not those in xforms
16:01:27 <John_Boyer> Steven: Does it make sense to ask Michael Kay?
16:02:03 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer: Yes, although he probably doesn't do much with digitally signing XSLT.
16:02:59 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer:  makes sense to ask Michael about the value to XSLT of the override
16:03:13 <John_Boyer> Steven: need a resolution about FPWD. Any objections?
16:03:17 <John_Boyer> All: no
16:03:46 <John_Boyer> RESOLUTION: Publish FPWD of XForms 2.0 and XPath Expression module
16:03:54 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/13-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer
16:04:37 <Zakim> -Steven
16:04:39 <John_Boyer> hmm, what's taking zakim so long?
16:04:39 <Zakim> -Philip
16:04:41 <Zakim> -nvdbleek
16:04:43 <Zakim> -alain
16:04:45 <Zakim> -John_Boyer.a
16:04:47 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has ended
16:04:49 <Zakim> Attendees were +44.782.483.aaaa, +1.323.425.aabb, nvdbleek, +1.650.919.aacc, ebruchez, Steven, Philip, alain
16:05:08 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make minutes
16:05:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/13-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer
16:05:45 <Steven> Chair: Steven
16:05:49 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:05:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/13-forms-minutes.html Steven
16:06:56 <Steven> Present+ John_Boyer
16:07:10 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:07:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/13-forms-minutes.html Steven
16:07:27 <John_Boyer> ah, thanks Steven, I wonder which of those phone #s I actually was
16:07:38 <Steven> :-)
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19:35:41 <pfennell> Sorry, this isn't really Philip, this is Brett doing some sysadminning.
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