14:58:06 RRSAgent has joined #html-media 14:58:06 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/12-html-media-irc 14:58:08 RRSAgent, make logs 185 14:58:10 Zakim, this will be 63342 14:58:10 ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes 14:58:11 Meeting: HTML Media Teleconference 14:58:11 Date: 12 June 2012 14:58:38 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:59:21 zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc and adrianba 14:59:21 sorry, paulc, I do not recognize a party named '[Microsoft]' 14:59:37 zakim, who is on the call? 14:59:37 HTML_WG()11:00AM has not yet started, paulc 14:59:39 On IRC I see RRSAgent, adrianba, ddorwin, paulc, Zakim, Yang, MikeSmith, trackbot 15:00:15 test 15:00:40 zakim, who is on the call? 15:00:40 HTML_WG()11:00AM has not yet started, paulc 15:00:42 On IRC I see RRSAgent, adrianba, ddorwin, paulc, Zakim, Yang, MikeSmith, trackbot 15:00:46 Zakim, this will be HTML_WG 15:00:46 ok, MikeSmith, I see HTML_WG()11:00AM already started 15:00:55 + +1.760.533.aacc 15:00:57 Zakim, who is on the call? 15:00:57 On the phone I see ??P1, +1.818.560.aaaa, +1.303.503.aabb, [Microsoft], Cecile_Marc, +1.760.533.aacc 15:01:13 zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc and adrianba 15:01:13 +paulc, adrianba; got it 15:01:16 ??P1 is me 15:01:31 Yang, you need to say, "Zakim,, ??P1 is me" 15:01:31 +[GVoice] 15:01:43 + +1.408.393.aadd 15:01:44 zakim, [GVoice] is me 15:01:44 Zakim,??P1 is me 15:01:44 +ddorwin; got it 15:01:44 +Yang; got it 15:01:59 Zakim, call Mike 15:01:59 ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made 15:02:00 +Mike 15:02:05 + +1.215.286.aaee 15:02:24 acolwell has joined #html-media 15:02:29 David_Corvoysier has joined #html-media 15:02:37 plh has joined #html-media 15:02:38 + +1.858.485.aaff 15:02:46 +Plh 15:02:51 mc has joined #html-media 15:03:22 + +1.206.218.aagg 15:03:35 + +1.408.475.aahh 15:03:57 +[Microsoft.a] 15:04:03 markw has joined #html-media 15:04:07 Zakim, Cecile_Marc is David_Corvoysier 15:04:07 +David_Corvoysier; got it 15:04:12 + +1.415.867.aaii 15:04:24 zakim, aaii is markw 15:04:24 +markw; got it 15:04:51 + +1.613.287.aajj 15:04:54 zakim, acolwell is aag 15:04:54 sorry, acolwell, I do not recognize a party named 'acolwell' 15:05:03 zakim, acolwell is aagg 15:05:03 sorry, acolwell, I do not recognize a party named 'acolwell' 15:05:12 + +1.858.677.aakk 15:05:18 + +1.303.443.aall 15:05:22 zakim, aagg is acolwell 15:05:22 +acolwell; got it 15:05:24 +Mark_Vickers 15:05:49 zakim, aag is acolwell 15:05:49 zakim, aag gis acolwell 15:05:49 sorry, acolwell, I do not recognize a party named 'aag' 15:05:49 zakim, aagg is acolwell 15:05:50 I don't understand 'aag gis acolwell', acolwell 15:05:50 sorry, acolwell, I do not recognize a party named 'aagg' 15:05:52 Suzie has joined #html-media 15:05:55 mark_vickers has joined #html-media 15:05:55 R_Berkoff has joined #html-media 15:06:10 Zakim, 1.215.286.aaee is mc = michael chen 15:06:10 I don't understand '1.215.286.aaee is mc = michael chen', mc 15:06:22 john has joined #html-media 15:06:44 member:Zakim, 1.215.286.aaee is mc 15:06:45 whitech has joined #html-media 15:06:48 Petr has joined #html-media 15:06:52 Zakim, 1.215.286.aaee is mc 15:06:52 sorry, MikeSmith, I do not recognize a party named '1.215.286.aaee' 15:06:59 Zakim, +1.215.286.aaee is mc 15:06:59 +mc; got it 15:07:05 -Plh 15:07:11 Alex_Giladi has joined #html-media 15:07:13 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Jun/0047.html 15:07:56 ScribeNick: adrianba 15:08:00 acolwell, I think Zakim maybe already knows you are acolwell 15:08:00 Scribe: Adrian Bateman 15:08:04 Chair: Paul Cotton 15:09:04 BobLund has joined #html-media 15:09:15 plh: I am going to get started - is that okay? 15:09:20 yes 15:09:24 yes 15:09:38 TOPIC: Roll call, introductions and selection of scriben 15:10:01 paulc: i'm one of the co-chairs of the WG and you should treat me as the faciliator and chair of this meeting 15:10:06 +Philippe 15:10:15 ... don't want to spend a lot of time on introductions 15:10:27 ... we chose this meeting slot through a poll 15:10:49 ... at the f2f meeting in may there was a suggestion that we alternate topics for this slot 15:11:04 ... i arbitrarily chose the oldest proposal for this week 15:11:15 ... i propose media source next week and then alternate 15:11:30 ... we did this because some people were interested in one proposal and not the other 15:11:37 Zakim, list attendees 15:11:37 As of this point the attendees have been +1.818.560.aaaa, +1.303.503.aabb, +1.760.533.aacc, paulc, adrianba, +1.408.393.aadd, ddorwin, Yang, Mike, +1.858.485.aaff, Plh, 15:11:37 ... any comments? 15:11:40 ... +1.206.218.aagg, +1.408.475.aahh, [Microsoft], David_Corvoysier, +1.415.867.aaii, markw, +1.613.287.aajj, +1.858.677.aakk, +1.303.443.aall, acolwell, Mark_Vickers, mc, Philippe 15:11:51 alternating is fine 15:12:01 Q+ 15:12:42 ack Petr 15:12:49 Zakim,+1.408.475.aahh is R_Berkoff(Samsung) 15:12:49 +R_Berkoff(Samsung); got it 15:12:52 paulc: the agenda will make it clear which topic is which 15:12:59 q? 15:13:00 petr: as long as the agenda is clear that sounds fine 15:13:13 Zakim, list attendees 15:13:13 As of this point the attendees have been +1.818.560.aaaa, +1.303.503.aabb, +1.760.533.aacc, paulc, adrianba, +1.408.393.aadd, ddorwin, Yang, Mike, +1.858.485.aaff, Plh, 15:13:16 ... +1.206.218.aagg, [Microsoft], David_Corvoysier, +1.415.867.aaii, markw, +1.613.287.aajj, +1.858.677.aakk, +1.303.443.aall, acolwell, Mark_Vickers, mc, Philippe, 15:13:16 ... R_Berkoff(Samsung) 15:13:19 paulc: if we need to give one document more attention than the other we can consider that 15:13:25 duncanr has joined #html-media 15:13:32 ... if anyone thinks we're not making enough progress please contact me or the w3c team 15:13:37 pladd has joined #html-media 15:13:39 TOPIC: Administrative itemsn 15:14:03 paulc: because this is a sub-team of the HTML WG, when we set-up the tracker to track actions it can't map to the whole WG 15:14:04 -ddorwin 15:14:18 ... so people who need to be in the tracker need to let MikeSmith know they need to be added 15:14:26 ... i sent a mail about this today 15:14:33 +[GVoice] 15:14:40 See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Jun/0062.html 15:14:46 ... Mike responded with information about who was already subscribed including the editors 15:14:57 Q+ 15:15:03 ... anyone else who plans to be active and wants to accept action items should let Mike know 15:15:04 ack mark 15:15:19 q+ 15:15:23 mark_vickers: perhaps you could describe the action items? editing or non-editing items? 15:15:33 paulc: not expecting to take actions about specific edits 15:15:48 ... i expect actions about starting a discussion or updating bugzilla for example 15:15:57 ... i want to keep editing lightweight 15:16:22 ... if editors want to self-determine some way of dividing work we can have another tracker if needed 15:16:25 q? 15:16:31 ack ac 15:16:37 -[GVoice] 15:16:44 acolwell: what is the difference between tracker and bugzilla? 15:16:44 +[GVoice] 15:16:54 paulc: there's also the email list 15:16:58 zakim, [GVoice] is me 15:16:58 +ddorwin; got it 15:17:15 ... when people want to identify a problem they have two choices: open an email dialogue on the public list and ask "is the following a problem" 15:17:26 ... you might not be convinced you understand the spec and that it's wrong 15:17:52 ... once you're convinced there is a bug, use bugzilla to file a bug against the bug - each spec has a separate bugzilla component 15:18:09 ... the connection between bugzilla and the mail list is the same as the HTML5 spec 15:18:22 ... bugzilla sends email only for new bugs (not for subsequent updates) 15:18:47 ... we did that because specs that have a large number of bugs with lots of updates would flood the mailing list with updates 15:19:15 ... once someone has created the bugzilla entry - you can have a dialogue in the bug or on the mail list - there isn't a fixed rule about the most appropriate place 15:19:30 ... when you proposed detailed text or discussion about A or B then i think that's better in the mailing list 15:19:40 ... some people like bugzilla and others like the mailing list 15:20:07 ... when you see a new bug, you can click on the link and add yourself to the CC list so that you get all the mails with updates 15:20:35 ... one of the reasons we chose this approach is that if you see a new bug (and there was one this morning - here's an example) 15:20:35 new bug: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Jun/0061.html 15:21:29 yang: if someone comments in the bug will the reporter receive an email? 15:21:33 paulc: yes 15:21:39 Yang, if you type "q+" when you want to want to ask a question, the chair will see that and respond 15:21:41 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17470 15:22:10 got it,mike,sorry for disturb... 15:22:19 ... when you create a bugzilla bug you automatically get added to the CC line 15:22:33 paulc: third item is tracker 15:22:51 ... we use this to track issues and action items 15:23:16 ... tracker will look in the email archive for when the issue or action is mentioned 15:23:17 q+ 15:23:27 ... i'm not anticipating that we'll need many issues early on 15:23:49 ... i propose that we use the mailing list and bugzilla to drive the meetings and ask the editors to update the specs to reflect consensus 15:23:59 ... i believe in giving the editors leeway to express that consensus 15:24:08 ... and then we can see if we need to open new bugs 15:24:13 ... or if we need some form of escalation 15:24:19 ... for now i'm not too worried about that 15:24:35 ack Yang 15:24:35 ... i want us to work with a sense of consensus 15:24:45 yang: can you give me a URL to the tracker? 15:25:03 Yang, paulc : https://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/ 15:25:47 s/Yang, paulc :/ Yang, paulc, / 15:25:58 q? 15:26:00 RRSAgent, make minutes 15:26:00 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/12-html-media-minutes.html MikeSmith 15:26:18 - +1.303.503.aabb 15:26:29 acolwell: the tracker is mostly around the issues and actions related to the call and bugs/mailing list for the specific detail? 15:26:42 +??P9 15:26:43 -Mark_Vickers 15:26:44 paulc: i'm a firm believer in using actions to drive results when people take actions 15:26:57 TOPIC: Baseline documents and Bugzilla information 15:27:24 paulc: in the agenda i identified the starting editor's drafts and outstanding bugs 15:27:24 q+ 15:27:47 ... i wanted to get to agenda #4 and david created a list of important bugs to consider 15:27:58 q+ 15:28:02 ack susie 15:28:11 suzie: wondering if i can create a new bug through the mailing list? 15:28:41 paulc: there is no way to do this from the mailing list - if you can't use Bugzilla for some reason then one of the editors or me or the team will help 15:29:10 suzie: my previous understanding is that whenever i want to bring up a new topic i need to start from the email and it would be captured in bugzilla? 15:29:42 paulc: you could discuss first on the mailing list but that's not mandatory - you could just use bugzilla and create a bug right away (which will generate a message to the list) 15:29:53 ... people could respond on the list but will probably respond in the bug 15:29:55 q? 15:30:01 ack suzie 15:30:05 ack yang 15:30:14 yang: who decided which bugs will be on the agenda? 15:30:20 s/decided/decides/ 15:30:42 paulc: i made the decision in cooperation with the editors for this call 15:31:08 ... you could do that either by replying to the agenda but you could also send mail to me privately asking about priority 15:31:27 ... i will encourage you to do that on the public list but if you feel uncomforable with that please reach out to me 15:31:45 TOPIC: Candidate Encrypted Media Extensions bugs for discussionn 15:32:24 paulc: i think you identified the most important bugs including one that has lots of dependencies 15:32:31 bug 16613 15:32:31 ddorwin: correct 15:32:37 bug 16613? 15:32:40 Bug 16613: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Jun/0054.html 15:32:42 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16613 15:33:00 + +44.303.040.aamm 15:33:19 paulc: i think david and the editors would like feedback on this bug 15:33:44 ddorwin: the general idea (media source also investigating this) - we have a bunch of methods and events on the media element 15:34:04 ... it's suggested that we could hang them on a new object - or represent them as new session 15:34:09 example: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html#issue-oo-api-design 15:34:16 ... there is an example in the proposal of what this might look like 15:34:24 ... we're looking to get some feedback on this 15:34:37 ... i've listed some advantages and disadvantages 15:34:45 ... are there general questions or comments? 15:34:54 q+ 15:35:38 ddorwin: i was unclear of what glenn was suggesting - session id seems to handle this 15:35:50 ... we're open to other options - this is the one we came up with 15:35:50 ack Yang 15:37:21 q+ 15:37:34 yang: i reviewed the example interface description for the mediakeymessageevent 15:37:39 why we specify uint8array for message type 15:37:49 ... there is Uint8Array key 15:38:00 ... why did we specifiy that type for the message 15:38:31 ddorwin: the example is using the same approach as the rest of the proposal - we should discuss this separately but briefly this is a binary message 15:38:47 ... this is relatively new but is used in some other specs 15:39:12 Suzie has joined #html-media 15:39:19 eventinit 15:39:45 yang: why do we have the mediakeyeventinit for every event? 15:40:12 ddorwin: this is also orthogonal 15:41:04 q+ 15:41:04 adrianba: if you look at the dom4 spec in webapps, you see events being described in this new way 15:41:23 ack markw 15:41:23 paulc: yang, i suggest you send these general questions to the list 15:41:35 markw: an opinion on making this more object oriented 15:41:35 correcting myself, I think the EventInit was based on the spec, not Media Source 15:41:47 ... although this would make some of the simpler examples more complex 15:41:57 ... it would make the overall situation more understandable 15:42:11 ... and i think this is better if the code is easier even if they have to write a bit more 15:42:27 ... so i think they key issue is whether this is significantly harder for implementations 15:42:55 ... if people prototyping say it is okay for implementations then we should consider it 15:42:57 q+ 15:42:59 q? 15:43:27 What is your opinion on the example here: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html#issue-oo-api-design 15:43:33 paulc: i want to make sure people realise the example david provided earlier could be the start of a good discussion 15:44:09 ack mc 15:44:10 ... people could respond to this question on the list, either saying they prefer the current definition or moving to the new example 15:44:48 mc: if we move to the session object if we have async events that fire on the object how do you relate this back to the original element to which it pertains 15:45:14 - +1.303.443.aall 15:45:24 ddorwin: i guess the event would need to have a property for the element 15:45:28 ... that's good feedback 15:45:36 ... could you make this comment on this list? 15:45:37 ack ac 15:46:02 q+ 15:46:10 acolwell: i have a process question - media source has a similar bug - should we add the proposal to the spec or add it into the bug 15:46:45 adrianba: my proposal is to make suggestions in the bug and when there is consensus update the spec 15:47:15 acolwell: there is a similar bug for media-source that is asking the same question 15:47:28 ... we need to decide that before addressing other bugs because it directly effects them all 15:47:48 Answering acolwell's question, the proposal is only in the draft proposal because we listed known open issues when we published it. I would not do this moving forward. 15:47:52 paulc: i expect what happens after this meeting is that we have active participation by people on this call and on the list 15:48:11 ... i suggest we pick another topic and use that to seed some more discussion 15:48:22 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16738 15:48:23 ddorwin: let's go to heartbeat 15:48:27 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Jun/0058.html 15:48:57 ddorwin: the general goal of the proposal that it supports multiple drms and one requirement is heartbeat 15:49:11 q+ 15:49:28 ... there are a couple of ways to deal with this described in the mail 15:49:31 q- 15:49:49 paulc: so far people are choosing option #1 - could you say why someone might prefer option #2 15:50:17 ddorwin: basically from a consistency point of view - a heartbeat response is similar to a license and so the pattern would be the same as the other parts 15:50:39 ... but there is a significant overhead especially if we go with the object oriented approach 15:51:00 ... so the key question is does anyone object to option #1 15:51:03 ack Yang 15:51:08 yang: i support option #1 15:51:53 ... when the UA sends a key message to the server and the server responds you can use this for keepalive 15:52:26 second comment: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16738#c2 15:52:28 ... why would addKey be called - wouldn't this be the server doing the work 15:52:52 yes, who provides the ack ? 15:53:22 who provide ack, ua or server? 15:53:33 the server provides the ack and the script receives this and provides it to the UA using the addKey() method 15:53:58 ddorwin: the server replies to the application with the ack which then calls addKey() to pass this to the UA 15:54:02 got it 15:54:09 ... i will respond to the questions in the bug - it was updated overnight 15:54:31 I prefer option1 15:54:42 paulc: we're hearing support for option #1 - the operative question is whether anyone strongly supports option #2 and couldn't live with option #1 15:55:11 ... we should deal with this in email - i'll let the discussion go on and then before the next meeting ask if anyone objects to option #1 15:55:14 RRSAgent, make minutes 15:55:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/12-html-media-minutes.html MikeSmith 15:55:17 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17199 15:55:32 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Jun/0059.html 15:55:41 ddorwin: not lightweight - i'd like people to discuss this but we won't have time today - it's key release 15:56:00 ... somewhat orthogonal to the rest of the spec because it's not attached to the media element 15:56:11 ... would be good to have feedback from content providers 15:56:16 ... i know markw has some thoughts 15:56:24 ... would be good to get some feedback on this topic 15:57:01 paulc: this is good for a first meeting - please reach out to me privately if you have any difficulty working out how to enage in this group 15:57:09 ... i want to encourage discussion on the mailing list 15:57:22 ... second item we discussed is a candidate for closing down quickly 15:57:37 ... i think we want to focus the next meeting on the object oriented question 15:58:10 ... i proposed at the beginning of the meeting that next week we discuss media sources - we'll do the same as for this week but there's no reason we can't get this going sooner on the list 15:58:22 ... people are free to pick any of the bugs and start a mailing list thread 15:58:27 ... i plan to chair again next week 15:58:37 ... does anyone want to volunteer to scribe next week? 15:58:48 ... don't hear anyone - we'll find someone 15:58:56 ... any closing comments from anyone? 15:59:22 - +1.760.533.aacc 15:59:23 - +1.613.287.aajj 15:59:23 ... i suggest you send minutes to html announce and html-media 15:59:25 -Philippe 15:59:27 -Mike 15:59:27 -markw 15:59:29 - +1.858.485.aaff 15:59:30 ... we are adjourned 15:59:31 - +44.303.040.aamm 15:59:32 -acolwell 15:59:34 - +1.818.560.aaaa 15:59:36 -David_Corvoysier 15:59:39 -??P9 15:59:40 -mc 15:59:42 -[Microsoft] 15:59:45 -R_Berkoff(Samsung) 15:59:47 -ddorwin 15:59:50 -Yang 15:59:51 zakim, bye 15:59:52 - +1.408.393.aadd 15:59:54 - +1.858.677.aakk 15:59:56 leaving. As of this point the attendees were +1.818.560.aaaa, +1.303.503.aabb, +1.760.533.aacc, paulc, adrianba, +1.408.393.aadd, ddorwin, Yang, Mike, +1.858.485.aaff, Plh, 15:59:59 Zakim has left #html-media 16:00:02 ... +1.206.218.aagg, [Microsoft], David_Corvoysier, +1.415.867.aaii, markw, +1.613.287.aajj, +1.858.677.aakk, +1.303.443.aall, acolwell, Mark_Vickers, mc, Philippe, 16:00:06 ... R_Berkoff(Samsung), +44.303.040.aamm 16:00:09 rrsagent, make minutes 16:00:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/12-html-media-minutes.html adrianba 16:00:17 rrsagent, make logs public 16:03:22 mark_vickers has left #html-media 16:51:14 MarcoKotrotsos has joined #html-media