IRC log of ua on 2012-06-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:45:08 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:45:08 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-ua-irc
16:45:10 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:45:10 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
16:45:12 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:45:12 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
16:45:13 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:45:13 [trackbot]
Date: 07 June 2012
16:47:48 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:47:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-ua-minutes.html JAllan
16:49:06 [kford]
kford has joined #ua
16:49:22 [JAllan]
agenda+ Action-719 2.7.8 preference wizard http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0115.html
16:49:55 [JAllan]
agenda+ rewrite 3.3.2 describe accessibility features http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0116.html
16:52:38 [JAllan]
agenda+ remove Editor's Note: Add SC for built-in spell checking@@] from 3.2
16:52:54 [JAllan]
agenda+ write summary for 3.2
16:54:04 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:54:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-ua-minutes.html JAllan
16:55:13 [JAllan]
agenda+ remove action-611 from 3.2
17:00:44 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
17:01:03 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:01:10 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.883.aaaa
17:01:58 [Zakim]
+??P7
17:02:16 [Jan]
zakim, ??P7 is really Jan
17:02:16 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
17:02:38 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
17:03:28 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
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+Jeanne
17:04:00 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
17:04:55 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
17:05:14 [Zakim]
+Kim_Patch
17:05:49 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
17:05:49 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.425.883.aaaa, Jan, Jim_Allan, Jeanne, Kim_Patch
17:05:51 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Greg, jeanne, sharper, Jan, kford, Zakim, RRSAgent, JAllan, trackbot
17:06:27 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
17:06:33 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda?
17:06:33 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
17:06:35 [Zakim]
1. Action-719 2.7.8 preference wizard http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0115.html [from JAllan]
17:06:35 [Zakim]
2. rewrite 3.3.2 describe accessibility features http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0116.html [from JAllan]
17:06:35 [Zakim]
3. remove Editor's Note: Add SC for built-in spell checking@@] from 3.2 [from JAllan]
17:06:35 [Zakim]
4. write summary for 3.2 [from JAllan]
17:06:36 [Zakim]
5. remove action-611 from 3.2 [from JAllan]
17:06:56 [sharper]
zakim, code?
17:06:56 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), sharper
17:07:06 [Zakim]
+??P6
17:07:08 [sharper]
zakim, ??P6 is sharper
17:07:08 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
17:08:08 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda?
17:08:08 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
17:08:10 [Zakim]
1. Action-719 2.7.8 preference wizard http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0115.html [from JAllan]
17:08:10 [Zakim]
2. rewrite 3.3.2 describe accessibility features http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0116.html [from JAllan]
17:08:10 [Zakim]
3. remove Editor's Note: Add SC for built-in spell checking@@] from 3.2 [from JAllan]
17:08:10 [Zakim]
4. write summary for 3.2 [from JAllan]
17:08:11 [Zakim]
5. remove action-611 from 3.2 [from JAllan]
17:08:17 [JAllan]
zakim, open item 1
17:08:17 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Action-719 2.7.8 preference wizard http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0115.html" taken up [from JAllan]
17:09:29 [JAllan]
jr: ATAG decided to remove the SC because of the testability issue. propose removal for UAAG
17:10:03 [JAllan]
... suggest Preview of display preferences before committing them
17:10:31 [kford]
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17:11:55 [Jan]
2.7.8 Preferences Wizard: One or more wizards help the user to configure the accessibility-related user agent preferences. (Level AAA)
17:12:25 [kford]
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17:12:45 [JAllan]
js: -1 reword for preference review before commit
17:12:54 [JAllan]
kp: what was the issue
17:13:22 [JAllan]
jr: one or more wizards is not testable. if we just limit to display settings
17:13:45 [Jan]
no
17:14:05 [kford]
Scribe: kford
17:14:07 [JAllan]
kp: we have ability to save and reset settings.
17:14:25 [kford]
KP: We also have a save and share which makes this less important.
17:14:41 [kford]
JA: So Kim, what are you advocating for?
17:14:50 [kford]
KP: I'm vauge, I'm a don't know.
17:15:01 [kford]
JA: so you are a ~1?
17:15:12 [JAllan]
~1
17:15:34 [JAllan]
kf: fine with it going. wizards are out of vogue.
17:15:36 [sharper]
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17:15:57 [JAllan]
kp: wizards are too prescriptive and too many steps
17:16:06 [kford]
JR: ATAG had wizards but we moved to what we ended up removing the item I described earlier.
17:17:06 [kford]
KP: If you provide documentation and let them save and share and let them change outside the user agent, then this is covered.
17:17:51 [kford]
JA: Summarized discussion.
17:18:08 [kford]
JA: In general this seems to be covered.
17:18:38 [Zakim]
+Greg_Lowney
17:18:58 [kford]
SH: I understand the reasons for removing but the reasons this was there were also to help collect a bunch of settings that were scattered all around.
17:19:53 [kford]
SH: I understand this but it can be tedious at times. There was a time when it took 13 steps to change a font in Internet Explorer took 13 steps.
17:21:19 [JAllan]
kf: understands all Si points. would like to remove an SC.
17:22:21 [kford]
SH: I have many instances where people find this too hard.
17:22:53 [kford]
SH: In a practical sense I can understand why we might want to keep this around.
17:23:38 [JAllan]
kp: there are good examples.
17:24:09 [JAllan]
js: like JR proposal ...approve before comit
17:24:50 [kford]
Group talking about approve before commit.
17:24:54 [JAllan]
jr: do I have to have a commit when I changed the volume or font size...gets complicated
17:25:58 [JAllan]
kp: how easy a wizard to implement.
17:26:49 [JAllan]
kf: it is not trivial. depends on what setting you are going to change and where they come from.
17:27:47 [JAllan_]
JAllan_ has joined #ua
17:28:01 [JAllan]
... but what settings?
17:29:03 [JAllan]
kf: slim to no chance that the internet settings will be reworked
17:30:05 [JAllan]
jr: provides scenario using IE and wizard for a11y settings or advanced settings. seems like overkill.
17:30:38 [JAllan]
js: what if we stick to just display settings.
17:30:47 [JAllan]
jr: why just display
17:32:06 [JAllan]
gl: not convinced we need this
17:32:20 [JAllan]
kf: either keep as is or kick it out.
17:33:25 [JAllan]
gl: if we keep it. then use wording for accessibility preferences that we have defined elsewhere
17:33:36 [JAllan]
... needed to comply with UAAG20.
17:33:47 [JAllan]
jr: sure, but isn't this still overkill
17:33:59 [JAllan]
gl: at AAA is it harmful.
17:34:20 [JAllan]
jr: at CR will need implementations,
17:34:29 [JAllan]
js: that will be hard to do.
17:34:56 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:34:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-ua-minutes.html JAllan
17:35:27 [Greg]
It does not need to replace normal UI, and could be done as an add-it.
17:36:03 [JAllan]
proposal: remive 2.7.8 AAA from document
17:36:15 [Jan]
JR: +1 to remove
17:36:29 [JAllan]
s/remive/remove
17:36:31 [sharper]
+1
17:36:34 [jeanne]
-1 but will go with the group
17:36:37 [JAllan]
+1
17:36:39 [Greg]
~1 (I'm fine either way)
17:36:56 [kford]
+1, it goes away.
17:37:03 [JAllan]
kp: ~1 go with group
17:37:31 [JAllan]
resolved: remove 2.7.8 from document
17:37:33 [kford]
Resolved: 2.7.8 gets removed.
17:37:45 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:37:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-ua-minutes.html kford
17:37:47 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
17:37:57 [JAllan]
close action-719
17:37:57 [trackbot]
ACTION-719 Locate a link to Jutta's work on SCORM for 2.7.8 Resources closed
17:38:00 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
17:38:00 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
17:38:02 [Zakim]
1. Action-719 2.7.8 preference wizard http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0115.html [from JAllan]
17:38:02 [Zakim]
2. rewrite 3.3.2 describe accessibility features http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0116.html [from JAllan]
17:38:02 [Zakim]
3. remove Editor's Note: Add SC for built-in spell checking@@] from 3.2 [from JAllan]
17:38:02 [Zakim]
4. write summary for 3.2 [from JAllan]
17:38:02 [Zakim]
5. remove action-611 from 3.2 [from JAllan]
17:38:10 [kford]
zakim, close item 1
17:38:10 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Action-719 2.7.8 preference wizard http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0115.html, closed
17:38:12 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:38:12 [Zakim]
2. rewrite 3.3.2 describe accessibility features http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0116.html [from JAllan]
17:38:36 [kford]
zakim, take up item 2
17:38:36 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "rewrite 3.3.2 describe accessibility features http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0116.html" taken up [from JAllan]
17:38:54 [JAllan]
zakim, close item 3
17:38:54 [Zakim]
agendum 3, remove Editor's Note: Add SC for built-in spell checking@@] from 3.2, closed
17:38:56 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:38:56 [Zakim]
2. rewrite 3.3.2 describe accessibility features http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0116.html [from JAllan]
17:39:05 [JAllan]
zakim, close item 5
17:39:05 [Zakim]
agendum 5, remove action-611 from 3.2, closed
17:39:06 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:39:06 [Zakim]
2. rewrite 3.3.2 describe accessibility features http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0116.html [from JAllan]
17:40:00 [kford]
JA recaps message contents.
17:42:42 [kford]
JR and JA go over minor editorial issues.
17:42:48 [JAllan]
intent: Users with disabilities that need to use the accessibility features of
17:42:50 [JAllan]
the user agent user interface can easily find descriptions of how to
17:42:51 [JAllan]
use and configure the features to work with assistive technology.
17:42:53 [JAllan]
These descriptions can be provided in the documentation or user
17:42:54 [JAllan]
interface of the user agent or by the underlying platform, if the
17:42:56 [JAllan]
feature is in fact a service of that platform.
17:43:05 [JAllan]
example 1:
17:43:22 [JAllan]
Andromeda has a tremor that makes using the mouse efficiently
17:43:24 [JAllan]
difficult. She prefers using keyboard. Andromeda decides to explore
17:43:25 [JAllan]
using a new browser. Opening Help, she finds a section entitled
17:43:27 [JAllan]
"Browser Features Supporting Accessibility", a vendor provides a
17:43:29 [JAllan]
detailed description of user agent features which provide
17:43:30 [JAllan]
accessibility. In the Accessibility section she finds an item called
17:43:32 [JAllan]
Keyboard Shortcuts which lists all of the functions and commands
17:43:33 [JAllan]
available from the keyboard.
17:45:31 [Greg]
We should add to Intent that ideally it should be in documentation easily and freely available to end users, or those who need it.
17:46:09 [Greg]
The example would be slightly easier to read with a minor edit: "Andromeda has a tremor that makes using the mouse efficiently
17:46:11 [Greg]
difficult, so she prefers using keyboard. She decides..."
17:46:43 [JAllan]
intent: Users with disabilities that need to use the accessibility features of
17:46:44 [JAllan]
the user agent user interface can easily find descriptions of how to
17:46:46 [JAllan]
use and configure the features, including assistive techlogy.
17:46:47 [JAllan]
These descriptions can be provided in the documentation or user
17:46:49 [JAllan]
interface of the user agent or by the underlying platform, if the
17:46:51 [JAllan]
feature is in fact a service of that platform. The documentation is easily available to the end user.
17:47:44 [Greg]
"It is strongly recommended that the documentation be easily available to end users, and without charge."
17:48:26 [JAllan]
intent: Users with disabilities that need to use the accessibility features of
17:48:27 [JAllan]
the user agent user interface can easily find descriptions of how to
17:48:29 [JAllan]
use and configure the features, including assistive technology.
17:48:30 [JAllan]
These descriptions can be provided in the documentation or user
17:48:32 [JAllan]
interface of the user agent or by the underlying platform, if the
17:48:33 [JAllan]
feature is in fact a service of that platform. It is strongly recommended that the documentation be easily available to end users, and without charge.
17:49:53 [kford]
Group talking more about SC.
17:50:25 [Greg]
In the first two bullet items, the parts after the colons are pretty redundant to the "handle" before the colon. But not major.
17:51:21 [Greg]
We could say that end-user features are in end-user documentation or the UI, while features only relevant to developers can be in developer documentation.
17:51:43 [Jan]
(d) Not used by authors: The feature is not used directly by authors (e.g., passing information to a platform accessibility service).
17:52:56 [JAllan]
for UAAG (d) Not used by end users: The feature is not used directly by end users (e.g., passing information to a platform accessibility service).
17:56:23 [JAllan]
kf: what is the definition of developer, web developer, or AT developer
17:56:53 [Greg]
(d) Developer documentation: features only relevant for developers (e.g. how information is exposed to assistive technology) may be documented in developer documentation.
17:57:14 [Jan]
4.1.3 Accessible Alternative:
17:57:44 [JAllan]
kf: go with previous proposal. then add greg's (d) in 4 and create new SC
17:58:32 [Greg]
also e.g. "how nested user agents determine accessibility settings of the host".
17:59:25 [JAllan]
kf: could create a new SC in programmatiic access. seems the most practical way to move forward
18:03:02 [JAllan]
proposed:
18:03:07 [JAllan]
3.3.2 Describe Accessibility Features:
18:03:09 [JAllan]
For each user agent feature that is used to meet UAAG 2.0, at least
18:03:10 [JAllan]
one of the following is true: (Level A)
18:03:12 [JAllan]
(a) Described in the documentation: Use of the feature is explained in the user agents's documentation; or
18:03:13 [JAllan]
(b) Described in the interface: Use of the feature is explained in the user agent user interface; or
18:03:15 [JAllan]
(c) Platform service: The feature is a service provided by an underlying platform.
18:03:16 [JAllan]
(d) Not used by authors: The feature is not used directly by authors (e.g., passing information to a platform accessibility service).
18:03:18 [JAllan]
Intent of Success Criterion 3.3.2 :
18:03:20 [JAllan]
intent: Users with disabilities that need to use the accessibility features of the user agent user interface can easily find descriptions of how to
18:03:22 [JAllan]
use and configure the features, including assistive technology. These descriptions can be provided in the documentation or user
18:03:23 [JAllan]
interface of the user agent or by the underlying platform, if the feature is in fact a service of that platform. It is strongly recommended that the documentation be easily available to end users, and without charge.
18:03:25 [JAllan]
Examples of Success Criterion 3.3.2 :
18:03:26 [JAllan]
Andromeda has a tremor that makes using the mouse efficiently difficult, so she prefers using keyboard. She decides Andromeda decides to explore
18:03:29 [JAllan]
using a new browser. Opening Help, she finds a section entitled "Browser Features Supporting Accessibility", a vendor provides a
18:03:32 [JAllan]
detailed description of user agent features which provide accessibility. In the Accessibility section she finds an item called
18:03:35 [JAllan]
Keyboard Shortcuts which lists all of the functions and commands available from the keyboard.
18:03:37 [JAllan]
A user is exploring the menus of a user agent and finds a feature named Use My Style Sheet. Activating the feature, the user quickly
18:03:40 [JAllan]
learns that this feature allows custom CSS stylesheets to be created to help make web content more accessible.
18:03:46 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
18:03:52 [JAllan]
new (d) (d) Not used by end users: The feature is not used directly by end users (e.g., passing information to a platform accessibility service).
18:04:48 [Greg]
"a vendor provides" to "where the vendor provides"
18:05:36 [JAllan]
Andromeda has a tremor that makes using the mouse efficiently difficult, so she prefers using keyboard. She decides to explore using a new browser. Opening Help, she finds a section entitled "Browser Features Supporting Accessibility", where the vendor provides a detailed description of user agent features which provide accessibility. In the Accessibility section she finds an item calledKeyboard
18:05:37 [JAllan]
Shortcuts which lists all of the functions and commands available from the keyboard.
18:06:15 [Greg]
"Activating the feature, the user quickly" to "Activating the feature brings up a dialog box that not only allows her to install such a style sheet, but also explains an overview of the feature."
18:07:52 [kford]
Group working on another example.
18:08:06 [JAllan]
George is exploring the menus of a user agent and finds a feature named Use My Style Sheet. Activating the feature brings up a dialog box that not only allows her to install such a style sheet, but also explains an overview of the feature.
18:08:10 [Greg]
"e.g., passing information to a platform accessibility service" to "e.g. how the user agent passes information to assistive technology"
18:09:11 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
18:09:11 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
18:09:13 [Zakim]
2. rewrite 3.3.2 describe accessibility features http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0116.html [from JAllan]
18:09:13 [Zakim]
4. write summary for 3.2 [from JAllan]
18:10:45 [Greg]
Summary: Users can have form submissions require confirmation (3.2.1), go back after navigating (3.2.2), and use spell-checking facilities (3.2.3).
18:11:23 [Greg]
Summary: Users can have form submissions require confirmation (3.2.1), go back after navigating (3.2.2), and have their text checked for spelling errors (3.2.3).
18:12:16 [kford]
Resolved: Summary for 3.2 to be above wording.
18:13:11 [JAllan]
proposed:
18:13:12 [JAllan]
3.3.2 Describe Accessibility Features:
18:13:14 [JAllan]
For each user agent feature that is used to meet UAAG 2.0, at least
18:13:15 [JAllan]
one of the following is true: (Level A)
18:13:17 [JAllan]
(a) Described in the documentation: Use of the feature is explained in the user agents's documentation; or
18:13:18 [JAllan]
(b) Described in the interface: Use of the feature is explained in the user agent user interface; or
18:13:20 [JAllan]
(c) Platform service: The feature is a service provided by an underlying platform.
18:13:21 [JAllan]
(d) Not used by end users: The feature is not used directly by end users (e.g. how the user agent passes information to assistive technology)
18:13:23 [JAllan]
Intent of Success Criterion 3.3.2 :
18:13:24 [JAllan]
intent: Users with disabilities that need to use the accessibility features of the user agent user interface can easily find descriptions of how to use and configure the features, including assistive technology. These descriptions can be provided in the documentation or user interface of the user agent or by the underlying platform, if the feature is in fact a service of that platform. It is...
18:13:26 [JAllan]
...strongly recommended that the documentation be easily available to end users, and without charge.
18:13:27 [JAllan]
Examples of Success Criterion 3.3.2 :
18:13:29 [JAllan]
Andromeda has a tremor that makes using the mouse efficiently difficult, so she prefers using keyboard. She decides to explore using a new browser. Opening Help, she finds a section entitled "Browser Features Supporting Accessibility", where the vendor provides a detailed description of user agent features which provide accessibility. In the Accessibility section she finds an item called...
18:13:34 [JAllan]
...Keyboard Shortcuts which lists all of the functions and commands available from the keyboard.
18:13:37 [JAllan]
George is exploring the menus of a user agent and finds a feature named Use My Style Sheet. Activating the feature brings up a dialog box that not only allows her to install such a style sheet, but also explains an overview of the feature.
18:14:54 [kford]
Resolved: Use previous text for wording for 3.3.2
18:16:22 [kford]
Action: JS to update document with resolved items from this week and publish new editor's draft.
18:16:22 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-738 - Update document with resolved items from this week and publish new editor's draft. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2012-06-14].
18:17:07 [Zakim]
- +1.425.883.aaaa
18:17:09 [Zakim]
-Kim_Patch
18:17:11 [Zakim]
-Jan
18:17:11 [Zakim]
-sharper
18:17:41 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:17:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:19:46 [Zakim]
-Greg_Lowney
18:19:57 [JAllan]
zakim, please part
18:19:57 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were +1.425.883.aaaa, Jan, Jim_Allan, Jeanne, Kim_Patch, sharper, Greg_Lowney
18:19:57 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
18:20:32 [JAllan]
chair: jimallan, kellyford
18:21:07 [JAllan]
present: jim, jeanne, simon, kelly, jan, greg, kim
18:21:13 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:21:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:22:29 [JAllan]
rrsagent, please part
18:22:29 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-ua-actions.rdf :
18:22:29 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to update document with resolved items from this week and publish new editor's draft. [1]
18:22:29 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-ua-irc#T18-16-22