20:56:29 RRSAgent has joined #svg 20:56:29 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-svg-irc 20:56:31 RRSAgent, make logs public 20:56:33 Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG 20:56:33 ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)5:00PM already started 20:56:34 Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference 20:56:34 Date: 07 June 2012 20:57:51 +??P11 20:57:52 +Doug_Schepers 20:58:02 Zakim, ??P11 is me 20:58:02 +ed; got it 20:58:31 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJun/0080.html 20:58:34 Zakim, ??P5 is me 20:58:34 +birtles; got it 21:03:37 +nikos 21:04:07 scribenick: nikos 21:04:17 Topic: Dropping CSS paint color keywords 21:04:19 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012May/0092.html 21:04:44 jet has joined #svg 21:05:12 shepazu: these are all handled in css now right? 21:05:14 ed: yep 21:05:25 shepazu: So we don't need them - let's drop them 21:05:32 nikos: seems reasonable 21:05:40 ed: as long as we refrence css color spec, that's fine 21:05:56 nikos: css spec says it's an exact copy 21:06:25 shepazu: has both spellings of grey (gray) 21:06:41 s/grey (gray)/gray (grey) 21:07:27 Resolve: Reference CSS color keywords and drop them from SVG 21:07:32 Resolution: Reference CSS color keywords and drop them from SVG 21:07:53 Topic: Drop SVG paint interface 21:07:59 shepazu: in favour of what? 21:08:04 ed: that's the question 21:08:12 s/favour/favor/ 21:08:27 ed: The closes thing is something out of the CSS object model spec 21:09:10 ChrisL has joined #svg 21:09:44 ed: CSS doesn't currently have a way to explose paint 21:09:51 s/explose/expose 21:10:06 ed: they probably have a way to expose string valus but not individual colour values and such 21:10:15 +ChrisL 21:10:26 shepazu: svg interface doesn't have a way of exposing things like css colour values 21:11:45 ChrisL: regarding the previous topic, we agreed we'd add the colour module as chapter, which includes the colour keywords and also has some new stuff 21:11:55 ChrisL: How does the decision affect that? 21:11:58 https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/painting.html#InterfaceSVGPaint 21:12:07 shepazu: We would still do that but drop the list and reference CSS 21:12:17 ChrisL: So only have new stuff in there? 21:12:21 shepazu: yep 21:12:42 ChrisL: I was trying to make it self contained 21:13:48 http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/SVG/modules/color/master/SVGColor.html?rev=1.23;content-type=text%2Fhtml 21:14:27 ChrisL: Has everything that CSS 1 had plus new stuff 21:14:32 shepazu: May change our decision 21:14:41 ... This duplicates stuff that's in CSS? 21:14:46 ChrisL: yes 21:14:58 shepazu: Is it possible that we could do this as a CSS module instead? 21:15:06 ChrisL: We already did, it was called CSS colour. 21:15:14 ... it's a CR 21:15:28 shepazu: what's the benefit? 21:15:33 ChrisL: all the syntax is in one place 21:15:36 s/that CSS 1/that SVG1 and CSS3 Color/ 21:15:58 ChrisL: About 50% is new content - compared to what the CSS spec says 21:17:45 ChrisL: I'm not opposed to trimming down 21:17:59 Actually, it's REC 21:18:02 ChrisL: At the end there's a complete grammar for colour values and stuff - but if people want to reference CSS colour that's fine 21:18:24 ChrisL: A lot of the stuff from CSS colour was in SVG 1 21:18:47 shepazu: When we review, I think that we are going to have an easier time if we don't duplicate stuff and only have original material 21:19:06 ... where we've gotten pushback in the past is when we duplicate CSS 21:19:23 s/a CR/a Rec/ 21:19:41 shepazu: one thing I noticed - you're using xlink:href, can we just use href 21:19:51 ChrisL: Bear in mind this was edited about a year ago 21:20:29 ... I'm slightly concerned referencing CSS makes it harder to understand as you have to follow links 21:20:42 shepazu: Could we all reference one location? 21:20:49 ChrisL: Then it gets even more confusing 21:21:04 shepazu: I was thinking of a primer. Ok I withdraw the suggestion 21:21:16 ChrisL: It would be nice to get rid of the big list becaues people use a small subset 21:22:26 ChrisL: We resolved a while ago it's going to be a new chapter called SVG colour 21:22:42 ... lots of people go to the chapter in SVG 1 and then have to go to other sections to find what they need 21:23:19 shepazu: Might be more informative to name this colour management 21:23:32 .. but not too important to me 21:23:52 ChrisL: I'd push back on that 21:24:12 birtles: Is there anything in the CSS colour that's not in the SVG? 21:24:23 ChrisL: The idea is that it would have everything 21:24:33 ChrisL: I'd still like the syntax summaries to have everything 21:24:41 shepazu: I think that's reasonable 21:25:30 Action: ChrisL Trim out content which is in CSS3 colour and reference CSS3 colour instead 21:25:30 Created ACTION-3304 - Trim out content which is in CSS3 colour and reference CSS3 colour instead [on Chris Lilley - due 2012-06-14]. 21:25:57 Back to SVG paint interface 21:26:02 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012May/0093.html 21:26:14 https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/painting.html#InterfaceSVGPaint 21:28:09 shepazu: What Erik was saying, this provides some things that CSS doesn't and CSS provides some things this doesn't 21:28:24 shepazu: If people find the functionality useful, maybe we could request it be added to CSS OM 21:28:57 ChrisL: It's not clear whether the CSS OM is being worked on 21:29:07 shepazu: It's not 21:29:28 shepazu: we should raise it with them 21:29:35 ed: I think it makes more sense to have it in the CSS OM 21:29:57 ChrisL: Be aware that's opening a whole can of works about who's maintaing the CSS OM, etc. 21:30:09 .. what happens if there's a gradient on the div and you ask for it's RGB colour? 21:30:16 ... is there a way to find out it has a gradient? 21:30:37 ... I suspect the answer is 'we don't know, it's not supported yet'. 21:31:11 Action: ed to ask the CSS WG what's happening with the object model 21:31:11 Created ACTION-3305 - Ask the CSS WG what's happening with the object model [on Erik Dahlström - due 2012-06-14]. 21:31:36 Topic: Status of Shepherd integration 21:32:05 ChrisL: I don't have anything to report on this. Tav and I were supposed to work on a manifest that could be imported but I don't know if that's used in Shepherd 21:32:19 ... W3C has a very old version on the test side and the version that the CSS WG is using is more recent 21:32:27 ... don't know if that's a problem at this stage 21:32:34 ... I need to talk to Peter Linss 21:32:54 shepazu: We are doing Test the Web forward next Friday 21:33:01 ChrisL: I'll talk to Peter asap 21:33:08 shepazu: Could I join in, I'd like to get up to speed 21:34:12 Topic: Should non-scaling-stroke affect marker rendering? 21:34:24 shepazu: My thought is yes, it would be weird if we didn't 21:34:34 ... maybe we could add a new property that says don't scale the marker 21:34:45 nikos: I was thinking exactly the same thing 21:35:06 ... is it useful to scale the marker but not the stroke? 21:35:48 shepazu: I can see a use - let's say the marker is my current location or is something significant on a map 21:36:37 ed: default should be markers scale 21:37:00 shepazu: let's say we have circle and triangle alternating, circle has r=5 triangle has width=10 21:37:23 ... if you scale down the line, these things closer and they'd bump into one another 21:37:29 ... if you don't scale the marker 21:37:50 s/default should be markers scale/default should be that non-scaling-stroke applies to the markers too/ 21:38:18 brian: I'm thinking of the use case mentioned, I'm wondering if that's a separate feature? 21:38:39 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Requirements_for_Mapping 21:38:56 ... when we talked about requirements for mapping we talked about a feature where you can have a fixed size object that doesn't scale - for things like current location 21:39:49 ... maybe if you want an object not to scale you should use the feature proposed in the requirements for mapping 21:40:56 ChrisL: We're trying to down play markers in SVG 2 - the single marker of 'you are here' on a map doesn't have to be done with a marker 21:41:08 shepazu: So in general do we think that markers should follow the values of non-scaling stroke? 21:41:12 [general agreement] 21:41:37 shepazu: Maybe we could have an option for changing that but we need to examine the use cases to see if it makes sense 21:41:56 ChrisL: There's a lot of issues and we don't want to get into that right now for this 21:42:33 Action: heycam Specify that non-scaling stroke applies to markers also 21:42:33 Created ACTION-3306 - Specify that non-scaling stroke applies to markers also [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-06-14]. 21:43:36 Topic: SVG 2 status update 21:43:44 ed: I don't know if there's much to discuss 21:43:54 ... most edits are by Dirk and Cameron and they're not here 21:44:04 ... Dirk updated some parts of the transform section 21:44:11 ... Cameron made some small general changes 21:44:31 Topic: Making suspendRedraw, unsuspendRedraw, and forceRedraw optional in SVG 21:44:47 http://www.w3.org/mid/CAJgFLLv2TvH0xhruyHQCY=ozj6WFw20AAVrDdzwOH7Wf9CoBWw@mail.gmail.com 21:45:03 ChrisL: So these were added on the understanding that it would be faster to switch off rendering, do updates, then switch rendering back on 21:45:21 ... Implementations can handle that on their own and this makes it slower now. is that right? 21:45:25 ed: yes 21:45:42 shepazu: You might have the author making assumptions about how particular systems will optimise and that's bad long term 21:45:55 ChrisL: Do we need to make it a stub so content works - will that give any surprises? 21:46:23 ed: suspendRedraw says you can't suspend for an infinite about of time 21:46:32 ChrisL: So you don't know when it will kick back in ? 21:46:34 ed: yes 21:46:39 ChrisL: So if we make it a stub will it work? 21:46:58 ed: it'll work as well as it does in Firefox and ie - that's what they have already 21:47:14 ... I've been looking at doing the same in Opera 21:47:21 ... we should define what value the stub returns 21:47:42 ChrisL: if we remove it completely that might mean that older content will break 21:47:49 ... unknown error methods and such 21:47:51 ... so we can't do that 21:48:00 ... we can specify it's a stub that doesn't do anything 21:48:08 ... and say not to use it in new content 21:48:17 shepazu: what about forceRedraw? 21:48:25 ed: that's still being discussed on the list - there might be a usecase 21:48:37 shepazu: Tab was saying there's no way to flush the style 21:48:41 ... so it might be useful 21:48:56 ... not clear that it does collect everything together and redraw 21:49:33 ed: I think we should continue to discuss foreceRedraw and see if there are any more possible use cases 21:49:44 ... in any case we need to define what it does - flushing style for example 21:49:52 ... for the other methods are we in agreement that they can be stubbed out? 21:50:11 Resolution: suspendRedraw, unsuspendRedraw will be stubbed out - return value must be specified 21:50:38 Resolution: unsuspendRedrawAll will be stubbed out - return value must be specified 21:51:00 Action: ed will stub out suspendRedraw, unsuspendRedraw, unsuspendRedrawAll - return value must be specified 21:51:01 Created ACTION-3307 - Will stub out suspendRedraw, unsuspendRedraw, unsuspendRedrawAll - return value must be specified [on Erik Dahlström - due 2012-06-14]. 21:51:23 ed: We can come back to forceRedraw 21:51:33 ... it seems like it's disconnected from the others 21:51:40 birtles: Firefox flushes styles 21:51:43 .. on forceRedraw 21:52:17 ed: it says in svg 1.1 that in forces user agents to redraw all regions of the viewport that require updating 21:52:27 ... I don't know if that's specific enough for testing 21:52:45 ... to me it doesn't sound like it has to be a synchronous operation 21:53:13 ... I think it should be defined in more detail if we want it to something specific 21:53:54 -ChrisL 21:54:35 RRSAgent, make minutes 21:54:35 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-svg-minutes.html nikos 21:54:39 -ed 21:54:43 zakim, list attendees 21:54:43 As of this point the attendees have been Doug_Schepers, ed, birtles, nikos, ChrisL 21:54:45 -Doug_Schepers 21:54:45 -birtles 21:54:47 -nikos 21:54:47 GA_SVGWG(SVG1)5:00PM has ended 21:54:47 Attendees were Doug_Schepers, ed, birtles, nikos, ChrisL 21:54:55 rrsagent, make minutes 21:54:55 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-svg-minutes.html ChrisL 21:55:19 ta 22:41:53 birtles has joined #svg