14:51:24 RRSAgent has joined #mediacap 14:51:24 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-mediacap-irc 14:51:26 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:51:26 Zakim has joined #mediacap 14:51:28 Zakim, this will be MCAP 14:51:29 ok, trackbot; I see UW_MdCap()11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes 14:51:29 Meeting: Media Capture Task Force Teleconference 14:51:29 Date: 07 June 2012 14:52:19 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-capture/2012Jun/0020.html 14:52:41 Chair: Stefan_Hakansson, Harald_Alvestrand 14:57:07 burn has joined #mediacap 14:57:40 UW_MdCap()11:00AM has now started 14:57:46 +Dan_Burnett 14:57:51 zakim, I am Dan_Burnett 14:57:51 ok, burn, I now associate you with Dan_Burnett 14:59:14 Yang has joined #mediacap 14:59:25 +Josh_Soref 14:59:26 zakim, I am Randell Jesup 14:59:27 I don't understand 'I am Randell Jesup', jesup 14:59:38 zakim, I am Randell_Jesup 14:59:38 sorry, jesup, I do not see a party named 'Randell_Jesup' 14:59:45 worth trying 14:59:46 Zakim, nick jesup is Randall_Jesup 14:59:46 sorry, Josh_Soref, I do not see a party named 'Randall_Jesup' 14:59:53 Zakim, who is on the call? 14:59:53 On the phone I see Dan_Burnett, Josh_Soref 14:59:57 zakim, I am yang from huawei, nice to see you all 14:59:57 I don't understand you, Yang 14:59:59 +[Mozilla] 15:00:06 +Jim_Barnett 15:00:13 Zakim, [Mozilla] contains me 15:00:13 +derf; got it 15:00:16 + +1.650.241.aaaa 15:00:24 Zakim, code? 15:00:24 the conference code is 6227 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), dom 15:00:32 fjh has joined #mediacap 15:00:56 +??P27 15:01:01 could someone post the number to dial to Zakim? 15:01:04 +??P26 15:01:09 Zakim, ??P26 is me 15:01:09 +dom; got it 15:01:11 + +46.1.07.14.aabb 15:01:19 adambe has joined #mediacap 15:01:27 +??P28 15:01:29 I do not know my number, use sip 15:01:31 zakim, ??P28 is me 15:01:31 +fjh; got it 15:01:38 Zakim, who's on the call? 15:01:38 On the phone I see Dan_Burnett, Josh_Soref, [Mozilla], Jim_Barnett, +1.650.241.aaaa, ??P27, dom, +46.1.07.14.aabb, fjh 15:01:38 [Mozilla] has derf 15:01:38 Present+ Frederick_Hirsch 15:01:40 hta has joined #mediacap 15:01:44 Zakim, ??P27 is probably Yang 15:01:44 +Yang?; got it 15:01:58 Zakim, aabb is Harald 15:02:01 zakim, who is on? 15:02:02 +Harald; got it 15:02:07 I don't understand your question, hta. 15:02:10 Zakim, who's on the call? 15:02:18 On the phone I see Dan_Burnett, Josh_Soref, [Mozilla], Jim_Barnett, +1.650.241.aaaa, Yang?, dom, Harald, fjh 15:02:21 [Mozilla] has derf 15:02:59 Zakim, Harald is really Adam 15:02:59 + +46.1.07.14.aacc 15:03:04 +Adam; got it 15:03:08 Zakim, aaaa is Harald 15:03:13 +Harald; got it 15:03:15 Zakim, aacc is stefanh 15:03:24 +stefanh; got it 15:04:12 Jim has joined #mediacap 15:04:14 The agenda doesn't have the dial-in number, just the conf code... 15:04:27 call +1.617.761.6200 15:04:27 +1 617-761-6200 15:05:00 proposed agenda at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-capture/2012Jun/0020.html 15:05:03 + +1.610.889.aadd 15:05:51 +[Mozilla.a] 15:06:00 anant has joined #mediacap 15:06:08 -[Mozilla.a] 15:06:40 Zakim, Mozilla.a is anant 15:06:40 sorry, anant, I do not recognize a party named 'Mozilla.a' 15:06:45 +[Mozilla.a] 15:06:46 Zakim, Mozilla.a is anant 15:06:48 +anant; got it 15:07:28 Zakim, [Mozilla.a] contains me 15:07:28 sorry, anant, I do not recognize a party named '[Mozilla.a]' 15:07:36 Zakim, Mozilla.a contains me 15:07:36 sorry, anant, I do not recognize a party named 'Mozilla.a' 15:07:43 Zakim!!! 15:07:50 zakim, aadd is Randell_Jesup 15:07:53 +Randell_Jesup; got it 15:08:17 First item on agenda is to aprove minutes 15:08:23 hta: ... 15:08:44 ...: minutes approved 15:09:09 Topic: Requirements 15:09:12 ...: the big item for today is requirements 15:09:19 ...: is travis here? 15:09:31 anant_ has joined #mediacap 15:09:37 yang: I've posted something on the list 15:10:01 -> http://www.w3.org/mid/4FC7C5F0.8090605@alvestrand.no Help with capturing requirements from scenarios, from Harlad 15:10:06 s/lad/ald/ 15:10:19 ...: the requirements need more work 15:10:27 ScribeNick: Josh_Soref 15:10:46 hta: we had an original set of requirements from the WebRTC working group 15:11:20 Zakim, who iso nt the call? 15:11:20 I don't understand your question, Josh_Soref. 15:11:33 Josh_Soref: we can hear you 15:11:51 ...: we had a task to extract requiremets that would apply to this TF 15:11:53 -Josh_Soref 15:11:53 Everone hears you Josh 15:12:21 s/Everone hears you Josh// 15:12:27 +Josh_Soref 15:12:48 hta has joined #mediacap 15:13:08 s/ScribeNick: Josh_Soref// 15:13:13 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:13:13 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-mediacap-minutes.html Josh_Soref 15:13:24 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:13:27 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:13:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-mediacap-minutes.html Josh_Soref 15:13:40 s/Josh_Soref: we can hear you// 15:13:48 ScribeNick: Josh_Soref 15:13:49 great 15:13:53 s/great// 15:14:19 hta: We have a set of UCs that we agreed upon 15:14:20 Yang and hta was talknig 15:14:30 ... and we're in the process of generating a set of requirements from those UCs 15:14:39 ... we kind of implicitly understand what those requirements are 15:14:51 ... but the process of actually writing the actual text of the requirements 15:15:00 ... has taken much more time than expected 15:15:05 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:15:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-mediacap-minutes.html Josh_Soref 15:15:09 now we get the requirement one by one UC, right? 15:15:22 hta: so what we need to discuss on this call 15:15:27 ... is how we need to specify requirements 15:15:30 ... and what the requirements are 15:15:40 Zakim, mute me 15:15:40 Josh_Soref should now be muted 15:15:55 Yang: this ... will specify detailed requirements 15:16:05 s/this .../this conference call/ 15:16:29 hta: we've finished the work of generating scenarios 15:16:35 Yang: ok, i see 15:16:41 ... i sent some requirements to the list 15:16:59 stefanh: i think there were at least 3 people who sent proposed requirements to the list 15:17:07 ... i guess we should discuss if that's the right level of requirements 15:17:13 ... with the right level of detail in them 15:17:32 hta: i think that once we have gathered requirements from all the scenarios 15:17:39 ... we need to put them together and de-duplicate them 15:17:44 ... and link them back to the scenarios 15:17:58 ... and see what are the higher level abstractions from the requirements 15:18:06 ... and what parts of the system aren't in our scope 15:18:10 Yang: i agree with that 15:18:16 Zakim, who is speaking? 15:18:25 [is Travis still offering to act as an editor for requirements?] 15:18:27 Josh_Soref, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Dan_Burnett (4%), Yang? (79%) 15:18:29 s/...:/.../ 15:18:52 Yang: can we go through the scenario 2.5? 15:18:58 -> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw-file/tip/media-stream-capture/scenarios.html#conference-call-product-debate--multiple-conversations-and-capture-review 2.5 Conference call product debate (multiple conversations and capture review) 15:18:59 stefanh: we can look at that yes 15:19:08 s/stefanh:/hta:/ 15:19:33 Yang: i posted a message to the list 15:19:34 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-capture/2012Jun/0019.html Requirements extract from scenario "conference call" 15:19:42 s/extract/extracted/ 15:20:01 ... requirement to directly assess the video of a user 15:20:05 ... without opening a new window 15:20:33 hta: we need to figure out what we're doing in this group 15:20:41 ... and what is expected to be done elsewhere in the ecosystem 15:20:53 ... you mentioned that a user could request recording from the secretary 15:21:03 ... the process of requesting is outside the scope of this group 15:21:11 ... but the process of recording a stream and sharing it with someone 15:21:15 ... may be in scope for our WG 15:21:17 Yang: ok 15:21:45 hta: we should mention which things we expect to be handled 15:21:47 ... by others 15:21:52 ... [specifically which others] 15:21:55 ... it's good to do this 15:22:02 ... because sometimes people say "oh, we don't have plans to do that" 15:22:14 did harald drop? 15:22:41 Zakim, who is on the call? 15:22:41 On the phone I see Dan_Burnett, [Mozilla], Jim_Barnett, Harald, Yang?, dom, Adam, fjh, stefanh, Randell_Jesup, anant, Josh_Soref (muted) 15:22:41 [Mozilla] has derf 15:23:01 s/...: minutes/... minutes/ 15:23:06 Zakim, drop harald 15:23:06 Harald is being disconnected 15:23:07 -Harald 15:23:36 s/...: the big/hta: the big/ 15:23:49 Something bad happened to my microphone. I'm back now. 15:23:52 s/...: is/... is/ 15:24:05 RRSAgent, make minutes 15:24:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-mediacap-minutes.html Josh_Soref 15:24:16 s/worth trying// 15:24:22 s/could someone post the number to dial to Zakim?// 15:24:27 s/I do not know my number, use sip// 15:24:36 s/The agenda doesn't have the dial-in number, just the conf code...// 15:24:41 s/call +1.617.761.6200// 15:24:48 s/+1 617-761-6200// 15:24:51 +Harald 15:24:54 s/Zakim!!!// 15:25:03 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:25:03 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-mediacap-minutes.html Josh_Soref 15:25:23 adambe: we will never have these problems with WebRTC, right? 15:25:25 [ laughter ] 15:25:35 hta: as I was saying 15:25:46 ... a lot of these requirements revolve around Storing and Retrieving 15:25:50 ... Audio and Video 15:25:51 s/adambe:/burn:/ 15:25:58 ... which probably means saving to File or equivalent 15:26:16 s/Yang and hta was talknig// 15:26:42 Yang: saving media to file or equivalent 15:26:49 ... do we need to get permission from the source of the media? 15:26:59 ... [ if it's being streamed from them to the side that wants to save it ] 15:27:20 jesup: I don't think that's something we should specify here 15:27:28 ... certain countries/localities have restrictions about that 15:27:36 ... but it's way too complex to insert in the protocol 15:27:47 anant: even if we specify that 15:27:52 ... there's no way to enforce it 15:27:56 ... we should leave it to the web app 15:28:01 [ General Agreement ] 15:28:10 stefanh: when you're talking about sending over the network 15:28:17 ... it's also in the realm of the RTCWeb group 15:28:19 s/stefanh/hta 15:28:19 ... not this WG 15:28:29 stefanh: how do we do this now? 15:28:35 ... we can't go through the requirements in this meeting 15:28:39 ... it will take too much time 15:29:06 ... we should do this offline and ask Travis if he can integrate them in the document 15:29:12 ... and if he doesn't have time, find someone else to do it 15:29:24 hta: we might want to ask if anyone knows they have time/could do it 15:29:31 Jim: i can 15:29:39 ... but if travis is going to do it, i should communicate with him 15:29:54 hta: to us as chairs, it's not so important who does it, so much that it gets done 15:30:01 stefanh: i assume we have to check with travis 15:30:13 ... and if he has limited time, we come back to Jim 15:30:41 ACTION hta to ask travis if he can integrate collated requirements into his document, otherwise to Jim 15:30:41 Created ACTION-4 - Ask travis if he can integrate collated requirements into his document, otherwise to Jim [on Harald Alvestrand - due 2012-06-14]. 15:30:58 hta: we should also figure out if there are some requirements 15:31:09 ... that would be too onerous to do in version one 15:31:19 stefanh: I added requirements about being able to pan audio in 3d 15:31:25 ... but maybe that isn't required in the first phase 15:31:42 ... as far as we know now, that would need something from the Audio WG 15:31:54 jesup: anything involving something like that is something that comes after Capture 15:32:03 ... and I don't think it needs to be specified in this TF 15:32:18 Zakim, who is speaking? 15:32:29 Josh_Soref, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Harald (23%), Yang? (34%), Adam (61%) 15:32:38 Yang: for 3d, does that mean ? 15:32:39 [sound spatialisation ] 15:32:47 Zakim, Yang? is Yang 15:32:47 +Yang; got it 15:33:06 s/for 3d, does that mean?/for 3d, do you mean visualizing sound in 3D?/ 15:33:21 Yang: i also agree realized audio would related to the Audio WG 15:33:35 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:33:35 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-mediacap-minutes.html Josh_Soref 15:33:53 s/did harald drop?// 15:34:06 hta: we had one volunteer to work with this 15:34:11 ... i suggest we move on 15:34:23 s/ACTION hta/ACTION: hta/ 15:34:34 Topic: Media Stream 15:34:50 Jim: I thought the idea of Media Streams assigned to certain media elements 15:34:56 Jims proposal at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-capture/2012May/att-0064/MediaStreamsAsMediaElements.html 15:34:57 ... there are certain restrictions 15:35:04 ... and I thought we could produce a table 15:35:08 ... relating to their values 15:35:13 ... there are several questions that came up 15:35:20 ... Media Elements are referenced by URL 15:35:31 ... and a question that came up related to direct assignment 15:35:40 ... in the current version, you must create a URI and pass in the URI 15:35:50 ... another thing, when you create a URL, you can Revoke it later 15:35:56 ... I presume that Revoking the URL 15:36:06 ... doesn't change the field 15:36:18 ... because changing the source element triggers a long process 15:36:24 ... we need to figure out what happens in that case 15:36:32 ... there was an original proposal from Opera that was linked 15:36:48 s|Jims proposal at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-capture/2012May/att-0064/MediaStreamsAsMediaElements.html|-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-capture/2012May/att-0064/MediaStreamsAsMediaElements.html Jims proposal| 15:37:06 ... in Seekable attribute, there 15:37:16 ... are problems for non seekable streams 15:37:31 ... and I had things return 0 to indicate that the stream couldn't be seeked 15:37:40 ... another problem is that Media Streams don't have text tracks 15:37:44 ... but they're optional 15:37:52 hta: I suspect they might have them in a year or two 15:37:59 Jim: if you had a real time speech recognition 15:38:05 ... system, you could produce text 15:38:28 Yang: if a UA doesn't have a certain feature, then you don't use it 15:38:36 ... seek time/seek rate 15:38:53 Jim: are you agreeing that Seekable start, end, time should be 0? 15:39:04 hta: what is the definition of current time? 15:39:11 Jim: it's supposed to be the current position in the stream 15:39:19 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:39:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-mediacap-minutes.html Josh_Soref 15:39:42 hta: if that has to increment, then seekable start+end should return current time 15:39:49 ... if not, then 0 15:39:59 Jim: i think current time increases in real time linearly 15:40:06 ... of course, you can't seek forward in this 15:40:21 ... but, could you want to buffer? 15:40:26 -> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/media-elements.html#dom-media-currenttime HTML5 currentTime attribute on MediaElement 15:40:35 derf: i don't think we want that at all 15:40:42 ... the thing on the media element 15:40:47 ... should be what is playing in real time 15:40:49 ... right now 15:40:56 stefanh: i agree with that 15:41:02 Jim: i agree, that would be separate 15:41:14 hta: i'd suggest we say explicitly that there is no buffer 15:41:22 Jim: i think that's one thing i have to add to this 15:41:29 ... when you pause the stream, and then resume 15:41:40 ... it doesn't buffer, and i need to add a statement on that 15:41:42 jesup: i agree 15:41:55 ... on seekable, i think you might be less confused 15:42:01 ... if you have start + end always return current time 15:42:09 Jim: you're saying seekable length should return 0 15:42:16 jesup: that's less likely to confuse implementations 15:42:25 ... that use it to generate UI elements 15:42:30 ... either that or you return an error 15:42:37 q+ to say that throwing is more likely to break UI elements 15:42:49 jesup: you're talking about things that are effectively buggy in the first place 15:42:55 ... the argument is equally valid 15:42:56 ack me 15:42:57 Josh_Soref, you wanted to say that throwing is more likely to break UI elements 15:43:01 Zakim, mute me 15:43:01 Josh_Soref should now be muted 15:43:11 hta: this table is a great table to have, the question now is 15:43:16 ... where should we insert it in the spec? 15:43:19 ... is it a new section? 15:43:30 s/Jims proposal/Jim's proposal/ 15:43:35 stefanh: I think it's a new session 15:43:39 s/session/section/ 15:43:45 Jim: is it an appendix or something? 15:43:50 hta: I think it deserves a section 15:44:01 ... a section that talks about interaction between MediaStream and 15:44:05 Jim: ok 15:44:21 (the partial interface url {} could go under there) 15:44:30 hta: i suggest we charge one of our editors to work with Jim to insert this into the spec 15:44:36 ... do we have a volunteer editor? 15:44:50 hta: ACTION burn to work with Jim to integrate Jim 's table into the spec 15:44:56 s/ACTION/ACTION:/ 15:45:03 ACTION burn to work with Jim to integrate Jim 's table into the spec 15:45:03 Created ACTION-5 - Work with Jim to integrate Jim 's table into the spec [on Daniel Burnett - due 2012-06-14]. 15:45:12 s|hta: ACTION burn to work with Jim to integrate Jim 's table into the spec|| 15:45:15 s/ACTION/ACTION:/ 15:45:28 stefanh: Jim and burn will do this 15:45:36 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:45:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-mediacap-minutes.html Josh_Soref 15:46:29 Topic: Resource reservation 15:46:43 stefanh: anant, you made a new proposal and integrated it into the specification 15:46:51 anant: there are two points i added to the document 15:46:56 ... they're non-normative 15:47:01 ... first, we suggested 15:47:12 http://dev.w3.org/2011/webrtc/editor/getusermedia.html#implementation-suggestions 15:47:13 ... when a resource has been used to provide to the given page 15:47:20 ... that it should be marked as busy 15:47:29 ... and subsequent requests within the page or elsewhere 15:47:34 ... to assign the resource to an element 15:47:39 ... should result in a busy 15:47:53 ... and i followed up w/ a suggestion that the UA indicate to the User that 15:48:06 ... the resource is busy and allow the user to reassign the resource to the new requester 15:48:18 ... the second suggestion is for non hardware resources 15:48:27 ... such as using a file picker to assign a stream 15:48:39 ... we had a discussion at the last telco 15:48:46 ... a media stream can have multiple tracks 15:49:00 ... which thus have multiple hardware resources 15:49:14 ... an app could prompt repeatedly for getUserMedia 15:49:19 ... and then merge them 15:49:23 ... after I sent that out 15:49:31 ... I think we should define something 15:49:44 ... around letting web pages determine how many audio/video sources it can have 15:50:00 ... i wouldn't be comfortable revealing resolutions 15:50:07 ... hta had a proposal that i liked 15:50:18 ... specifying Max XXX to it 15:50:18 -> http://www.w3.org/mid/4FD094A3.4090203@alvestrand.no Grabbing exactly one camera, from Harald 15:50:35 hta: how is this compatible with the rest of the constraint structure? 15:50:42 s/hta/adambe/ 15:50:58 ... if you ask for 2 cameras 15:51:02 ... and have a constraint 15:51:12 ... and one camera is high res, and one isn't 15:51:20 anant: I think that the constraints would apply to both 15:51:33 ... if you as a web developer want to accept different constraints 15:51:37 ... you should make two calls 15:51:50 ... say a web developer has 2