15:01:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
15:01:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-html-a11y-irc
15:01:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:01:22 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
15:01:22 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 61 minutes ago
15:01:23 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:01:23 <trackbot> Date: 07 June 2012
15:03:18 <MichaelC> zakim, this is 2119
15:03:25 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM
15:03:40 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
15:03:40 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:03:42 <Zakim> +Mike
15:03:44 <David> David has joined #html-a11y
15:04:17 <Zakim> -??P31
15:04:42 <Judy> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:04:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see JF, David_MacDonald, Judy, Mike
15:05:08 <paulc> paulc has joined #html-a11y
15:05:11 <JF> JF has joined #html-a11y
15:05:11 <Zakim> +Cooper
15:05:12 <Zakim> +Léonie_Watson
15:05:35 <JF> zakim, who's here?
15:05:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see JF, David_MacDonald, Judy, Mike, Cooper, Léonie_Watson
15:05:37 <Zakim> On IRC I see JF, paulc, David, RRSAgent, LeonieW, davidb, Judy, MichaelC, MikeSmith, Zakim, trackbot, [tm]
15:06:12 <Zakim> +??P46
15:06:12 <paulc> IRC only today 
15:06:17 <Zakim> +??P43
15:06:49 <JF> zakim, ??P46 is Janina
15:06:55 <Zakim> +Janina; got it
15:07:05 <janina> janina has joined #html-a11y
15:07:06 <Judy> agenda?
15:07:24 <JF> zakim, ??P43 is Steve F
15:07:24 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P43 is Steve F', JF
15:07:38 <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop item 8
15:07:38 <Zakim> agendum 8, Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open, dropped
15:07:42 <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop item 9
15:07:42 <Zakim> agendum 9, Identify Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List, dropped
15:07:45 <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop item 10
15:07:45 <Zakim> agendum 10, be done, dropped
15:07:49 <Judy> agenda+	Issue-204 
15:07:49 <Judy> agenda+	Issue-201 & 205 Status
15:07:49 <Judy> agenda+	Issue-199 Status
15:07:49 <Judy> agenda+	Issue-194 Consensus Call
15:07:49 <Judy> agenda+	Issue-31C Status
15:07:50 <Judy> agenda+	Subteam Reports: Bug Triage; Text; ARIA Mappings
15:07:51 <JF> zakim, ??P43 is Steve F
15:07:53 <Judy> agenda+	Other Business
15:07:55 <Judy> agenda+	Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
15:07:55 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P43 is Steve F', JF
15:07:56 <Judy> agenda+	Identify Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
15:08:16 <JF> zakim, who's here?
15:08:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see JF, David_MacDonald, Judy, Mike, Cooper, Léonie_Watson, Janina, ??P43
15:08:18 <Zakim> On IRC I see janina, JF, paulc, David, RRSAgent, LeonieW, davidb, Judy, MichaelC, MikeSmith, Zakim, trackbot, [tm]
15:08:23 <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Jun/0013.html
15:08:38 <MikeSmith> "Questions on ARIA and HTML interactions for aria-required and aria-invalid"
15:08:38 <LeonieW> scribe: Léonie Watson
15:08:40 <JF> zakim, ??P43 is Steve_F
15:08:40 <Zakim> +Steve_F; got it
15:08:46 <Judy> chair: Mike
15:08:57 <MikeSmith> agenda+ Questions on ARIA and HTML interactions for aria-required and aria-invalid
15:09:14 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
15:09:24 <Stevef> Stevef has joined #html-a11y
15:09:29 <Zakim> -Léonie_Watson
15:09:43 <JF> scribe: JF
15:10:02 <JF> zakim, [Microsoft] is cyns
15:10:02 <Zakim> +cyns; got it
15:10:09 <cyns> cyns has joined #html-a11y
15:10:12 <MikeSmith> Zakim, take up item 11
15:10:12 <Zakim> agendum 11. "Issue-204" taken up [from Judy]
15:10:13 <JF> zakim, take up item 112
15:10:13 <Zakim> I only see 20 items on the agenda
15:10:24 <cyns> zakim, who is on the phone
15:10:24 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', cyns
15:10:28 <cyns> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:10:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see JF, David_MacDonald, Judy, Mike, Cooper, Janina, Steve_F, cyns
15:10:45 <JF> MS: Where does 20 4 stand?
15:10:55 <JF> s/20 4/204/
15:11:29 <JF> JB: perhaps Janina can provide an overview
15:11:56 <Zakim> +??P4
15:12:17 <JF> JS: believe we are waiting on Ted/Jonas proposal side
15:12:51 <JF> status is that we are close - trying to bring the 2 together, but the suggestion was for RFC 2119 MUST or SHOULD language
15:13:04 <JF> PF filed a strong objection on that kind of language
15:13:10 <LeonieW> zakim, ??p4 is LeonieW
15:13:10 <Zakim> +LeonieW; got it
15:13:11 <JF> hope to re-start that convesation
15:13:26 <JF> appears that the details however are not tht far apart
15:13:32 <JF> still trying to avoid a survey
15:13:50 <JF> CYNS: sounds correct
15:14:06 <LeonieW> scribenick: LeonieW
15:14:21 <LeonieW> zakim, take up item 12
15:14:21 <Zakim> agendum 12. "Issue-201 & 205 Status" taken up [from Judy]
15:15:47 <JF> zakim, who's here?
15:15:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see JF, David_MacDonald, Judy, Mike, Cooper, Janina, Steve_F, cyns, LeonieW
15:15:48 <Zakim> On IRC I see cyns, Stevef, janina, JF, paulc, David, RRSAgent, LeonieW, davidb, Judy, MichaelC, MikeSmith, Zakim, trackbot, [tm]
15:15:53 <Zakim> -LeonieW
15:16:01 <JF> scribe: JF
15:16:15 <JF> it appears that some actions after the F2F may have been dropped or missed
15:16:35 <JF> seems another action was also create - assigned to issue 201 instead of Issue 205
15:16:46 <JF> Rich has discussed some updates, per request, on Issue 207
15:17:06 <JF> but because the action association in the record was wrong, may have been missed by the chairs
15:17:16 <JF> so now trying to figure out whree things went astray
15:17:40 <JF> need to write up a few more notes - have a few questions
15:18:06 <JF> meanwhile - there is a survey out on I205 with a question that might be of interest to people
15:18:22 <JF> possible that there may be a need for additional time
15:18:53 <JF> does anyone know who entered the action after the F2F - have looked at the log and it is unclear
15:19:16 <JF> MS: unsure, and we've discussed this internally already
15:19:34 <JF> JB: wondering if anyone here was directly involved
15:20:07 <JF> seems however that there is some cross-wiring. Meanwhile there is a survey that may have not gotten appropriate attention but expires tonight
15:20:14 <JF> (Judy searches for link)
15:20:49 <JF> appears that there is only 1 response to date
15:21:03 <Judy> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-205-objection-poll/results
15:21:07 <JF> if nothing changes with regard to terms of survey, then it may be worth looking at today
15:21:36 <JF> Judy is drafting some notes to try and untangle the crossed wires after the F2F however
15:22:03 <JF> MS: is there any new action we need to assign for this, or heads-up to anyone in particulr
15:22:16 <Judy> i have an action to complete the write-up and share that with the html co-chairs
15:22:17 <JF> JB: I need to write this up and share with the CoChairs
15:22:24 <paulc> Note that WG members don't need to respond to the survey if their positions are already reflected in the CPs under survey
15:22:32 <JF> JS: only 1 response from Rich
15:22:49 <Zakim> +??P4
15:23:34 <JF> I think I will respond in a similar vein- if someone does this it will cause significant issues
15:24:02 <frankolivier> frankolivier has joined #html-a11y
15:24:05 <MikeSmith> q?
15:24:18 <JF> zakim, take up item 13
15:24:18 <Zakim> agendum 13. "Issue-199 Status" taken up [from Judy]
15:24:19 <LeonieW> zakim, take up item 13
15:24:20 <Zakim> agendum 13. "Issue-199 Status" taken up [from Judy]
15:24:29 <JF> scribe: leonie
15:24:32 <paulc> >I think I will respond in a similar vein
15:24:53 <LeonieW> MS: Do we need to cover this today?
15:24:56 <paulc> Note that repeating arguments already made in a straw poll is discouraged.  The Charis are not counting votes or responses.
15:25:13 <LeonieW> JS: I had an action, but I'm afraid I wasn't able to work on it.
15:25:32 <LeonieW> zakim, take up item 14
15:25:32 <Zakim> agendum 14. "Issue-194 Consensus Call" taken up [from Judy]
15:25:48 <LeonieW> MS: Did the concensus call for 194 happen?
15:26:05 <LeonieW> JS: We pulled back as it was still fluid.
15:26:16 <LeonieW> rrsagent, make minutes
15:26:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-html-a11y-minutes.html LeonieW
15:26:42 <LeonieW> JS: We're planning another call tomorrow to keep working towards a single proposal.
15:27:12 <Judy> s/wondering if anyone here was directly involved/wondering if anyone here was directly involved in case it could help clarify intent/
15:27:21 <LeonieW> JF: We're close, but we're aware we're up against a deadline.
15:27:52 <LeonieW> JF: We've agreed to set aside the discussion about interactive transcripts for now.
15:29:14 <LeonieW> JF: The message to the chairs is that we know they're patiently waiting, but we honestly believe we're making progress towards a single proposal.
15:29:20 <MikeSmith> q?
15:30:11 <LeonieW> MS: Eric and Ted were on the media call?
15:30:24 <LeonieW> JF: Yes. Commitment is high.
15:30:37 <MikeSmith> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Jun/0020.html Media subteam call from June 5
15:30:40 <MikeSmith> q?
15:30:50 <JF> The call tuesday ran close to 2 hours, and we are making serious progress
15:30:52 <LeonieW> zakim, take up item 15
15:30:52 <Zakim> agendum 15. "Issue-31C Status" taken up [from Judy]
15:31:03 <JF> Q+
15:32:19 <LeonieW> MS: Judy and I have been updating the proposal based on the feedback from the chairs when it was rejected previously.
15:33:11 <LeonieW> JB: I have some updates pending. Status is that it's not quite ready for review.
15:33:52 <LeonieW> MS: The aim is for the issue to be reopened so the group can discuss it further.
15:34:08 <LeonieW> rrsagent, make minutes
15:34:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-html-a11y-minutes.html LeonieW
15:34:15 <MikeSmith> ack Judy 
15:34:19 <MikeSmith> ack JF 
15:34:27 <LeonieW> MS: It should be back with the chairs on Friday.
15:35:13 <LeonieW> JF: You mentioned that Glasu had comments about this proposal.
15:35:28 <LeonieW> MS: I'll check the thread.
15:35:45 <LeonieW> JB: I think they may already be captured in my updates, but we'll check.
15:35:49 <JF> s/Glasu/Glazoo/
15:36:34 <LeonieW> zakim, take up item 16
15:36:34 <Zakim> agendum 16. "Subteam Reports: Bug Triage; Text; ARIA Mappings" taken up [from Judy]
15:37:08 <LeonieW> MS: The media sub team has been covered.
15:37:21 <LeonieW> MS: Think we can skip bug triage and mapping sub teams too.
15:37:37 <LeonieW> MS: Text sub team?
15:38:06 <LeonieW> JB: It doesn't look as though the minutes were sent through to the list.
15:38:12 <Judy> the agenda was here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Jun/0014.html
15:38:45 <Judy> minutes: http://www.w3.org/2012/06/05-text-minutes.html
15:39:40 <LeonieW> JB: We looked at longdesc and concerns that 204 is looping a bit.
15:40:32 <LeonieW> JS: We need to restart the conversation about how we reach agreement about the details section, or it needs to go to survey.
15:41:39 <LeonieW> JB: We discussed 31b. David took an action to create a matrix of issues, and to set a path for moving forward.
15:42:21 <LeonieW> DM: It'll bring together documentation, bugs and violations of WCAG 3
15:42:46 <David> s/ WCAG 3/WCAG 2
15:42:52 <LeonieW> s//WCAG 3WCAG/
15:42:54 <MikeSmith> q?
15:43:05 <LeonieW> zakim, take up item 17
15:43:05 <Zakim> agendum 17. "Other Business" taken up [from Judy]
15:43:31 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:43:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith
15:44:06 <MikeSmith> agenda?
15:45:13 <JF> scribe: JF
15:45:20 <LeonieW> zakim, take up item 20
15:45:20 <Zakim> agendum 20. "Questions on ARIA and HTML interactions for aria-required and aria-invalid" taken up [from MikeSmith]
15:45:27 <JF> zakim, take up item 20
15:45:27 <Zakim> agendum 20. "Questions on ARIA and HTML interactions for aria-required and aria-invalid" taken up [from MikeSmith]
15:45:33 <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Jun/0013.html
15:45:44 <JF> ?me or Leonie are you still here?
15:45:55 <JF> s/?me or Leonie are you still here?/ /
15:46:02 <JF> scribe: Leonie
15:48:06 <LeonieW> CS: The questions related to the relationship between ARIA and HTML attributes. For example if an input has aria-required, but no HTML required, what is the outcome?
15:48:44 <LeonieW> CS: I think aria-required should be honoured. That would be good for backwards compatibility. It's unclear in the spec.
15:48:44 <JF> Q+
15:48:58 <Stevef> q+
15:49:51 <LeonieW> JF: I ran some tests on this a while back. I believe aria-required is being announced, by screen readers whether or not HTML required is set. 
15:49:53 <MikeSmith> ack JF
15:50:07 <LeonieW> CS: My concern isn't what's happening now, but what the specification says.
15:50:17 <LeonieW> rrsagent, make minutes
15:50:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-html-a11y-minutes.html LeonieW
15:50:48 <MikeSmith> ack Stevef 
15:51:38 <LeonieW> SF: If required isn't present, but aria-required is, the ARIA is available via the API.
15:52:31 <LeonieW> SF: The problem with this in general is that when you put required on a control, the user is immediately told on first focus that the field is invalid. Technically that's true because the field is empty, but it's confusing too.
15:53:59 <LeonieW> CS: My concern is that some browsers will be aware of aria-required but not required. It's more likely that in the beginning the absence of required is due to the developer not knowing abuot it, rather than it intentionally being left out.
15:54:19 <LeonieW> CS: So aria-required should be honoured, even when required isn't present.
15:54:29 <LeonieW> SF: Yes.
15:55:07 <LeonieW> JF: We need more language to make this clear? In the HTML5 spec or the ARIA implementation guide?
15:55:18 <LeonieW> CS: Probably in both.
15:56:26 <LeonieW> MS: We'll need agreement if we want to propose a change to the HTML5 spec. We can agree changes to the ARIA documents on the call.
15:56:52 <LeonieW> SF: There will be a behaviour change depending on the HTML doctype.
15:57:49 <LeonieW> SF: It should be detailed in the ARIA implementation. It would be good to have it in the HTML5 spec, but adding it could open up a can of worms.
15:58:20 <LeonieW> rrsagent, make minutes
15:58:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-html-a11y-minutes.html LeonieW
15:59:12 <janina> I need to go to my ISO mtg. Bye for now!
15:59:17 <Zakim> -Steve_F
15:59:21 <LeonieW> CS: I'll put something into the UA guide, and raise a bug against the HTML5 spec.
16:00:05 <LeonieW> MS: Any other business?
16:00:05 <MikeSmith> q?
16:00:40 <LeonieW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:00:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-html-a11y-minutes.html LeonieW
16:00:55 <Zakim> -Cooper
16:00:55 <Zakim> -??P4
16:00:55 <Zakim> -Mike
16:00:56 <Zakim> -JF
16:00:57 <Zakim> -Judy
16:05:00 <LeonieW> LeonieW has joined #html-a11y
16:05:18 <LeonieW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:05:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-html-a11y-minutes.html LeonieW
16:06:32 <LeonieW> Present: Mike Smith, Judy Brewer, John Foliot, Janina Sajka, David Macdonald, Léonie Watson, Steve Faulkner, Cynthia Shelley
16:06:39 <Zakim> -cyns
16:06:41 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
16:06:43 <Zakim> -Janina
16:06:43 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has ended
16:06:43 <Zakim> Attendees were JF, David_MacDonald, Judy, Mike, Cooper, Léonie_Watson, Janina, Steve_F, cyns, LeonieW
16:06:44 <LeonieW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:06:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-html-a11y-minutes.html LeonieW
16:07:12 <LeonieW> zakim, please part
16:07:12 <Zakim> Zakim has left #html-a11y
16:07:19 <LeonieW> rrsagent, please part
16:07:19 <RRSAgent> I see no action items