14:27:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
14:27:34 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/06-forms-irc
14:27:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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14:27:38 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_XForms
14:27:39 <trackbot> Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference
14:27:39 <trackbot> Date: 06 June 2012
14:27:40 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_XForms()11:00AM scheduled to start in 33 minutes
14:28:10 <Steven_> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012Jun/0001
15:00:13 <nvdbleek> zakim, code?
15:00:13 <Zakim> the conference code is 93676 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek
15:00:35 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has now started
15:00:42 <Zakim> +nvdbleek
15:02:11 <Zakim> +??P6
15:02:19 <Steven> zakim, i am ??p6
15:02:19 <Zakim> +Steven; got it
15:03:04 <Steven> Regrets: Philip
15:03:10 <Steven> Chair: Steven
15:03:15 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:03:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/06-forms-minutes.html Steven
15:03:37 <alain> alain has joined #forms
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15:04:28 <Zakim> +??P11
15:04:48 <Zakim> +ebruchez
15:04:58 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has joined #forms
15:05:32 <Steven> zakim, ??P11 is ebruchez
15:05:32 <Zakim> +ebruchez; got it
15:06:20 <Zakim> +John_Boyer
15:06:42 <alain> Zakim, I am ??P11
15:06:42 <Zakim> sorry, alain, I do not see a party named '??P11'
15:08:54 <John_Boyer> scribe: John_Boyer
15:09:00 <Steven> Topic: script/@type="text/xforms" support in XSLTForms
15:09:01 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2012May/0000.html
15:09:47 <John_Boyer> Alain: You can embed xforms in script tags
15:10:11 <John_Boyer> Alain: Useful in CMS
15:10:41 <John_Boyer> Steven: So you still need the script to XSLTForms in the head, but then you can put the XForms in the body
15:11:47 <John_Boyer> Alain: no processing instruction needed
15:12:21 <John_Boyer> Alain: script not even necessary in the head
15:12:36 <John_Boyer> Alain: DRUPAL for example allows you to define scripts to be added to the head
15:12:49 <John_Boyer> Nick: Why can you just put it in the normal DOM?
15:13:10 <John_Boyer> Alain: Normal DOM doesn't look at what's in the script tag when type is not javascript
15:13:24 <John_Boyer> Alain: so you can have namespaces
15:13:53 <John_Boyer> Alain: The model can be inside the script element
15:14:58 <John_Boyer> Alain: Currently only one script element with this type is allowed, but I could use subforms to allow multiple
15:15:05 <Steven> Topic: xforms:load/xforms:resource/@value
15:15:05 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2012Jun/0000.html
15:15:31 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make minutes
15:15:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/06-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer
15:16:08 <John_Boyer> Steven: This question is from a group that has implemented XForms 1.1
15:16:21 <John_Boyer> Steven: I'm going to spend a day with them soon and hope they will join the group
15:17:37 <ebruchez> http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#action-load
15:19:22 <John_Boyer> John: I think the answer is yes
15:20:35 <John_Boyer> John: ref that does attach to a node produces empty string, and that would be closest behavior to value producing empty string
15:21:26 <John_Boyer> Nick: In empty string case, it probably loads itself
15:21:46 <John_Boyer> Erik: If you have a base URL
15:22:12 <John_Boyer> Erik: The problem is that you have two different behaviors if there is some kind of expression problem
15:22:56 <John_Boyer> Erik: It seems to be undesirable for the value attribute to use "an empty string if the xpath evaluation fails"
15:24:50 <Steven> <load ref="foo"/> <load.<resource value="foo"/></load>
15:25:00 <John_Boyer> John: Well, xpath eval fail is different from xpath not resolving.   In the fail case, the ref will produce an binding exception. 
15:25:14 <Steven> s/load\./load>/
15:27:14 <ebruchez> http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#ui-output
15:27:16 <John_Boyer> John: I think "if the xpath fails" probably actually means "if the xpath doesn't find any nodes" because a real failure as in failing to parse the expression should produce an exception in value attr
15:27:53 <John_Boyer> Erik: It should be the same as the output element
15:30:53 <John_Boyer> Steven: It's worse for load than for output because it loads a page you don't intend, whereas for output, it only shows an empty string
15:32:49 <John_Boyer> John: Still, an actual error in the xpath itself that makes the eval fail should produce an exception, so spec seems wrong there (on load and output)
15:33:26 <John_Boyer> John: But failing to bind to a node is not an xpath failure.  It just behaves differently on load/@ref versus load/resource/@value
15:34:08 <John_Boyer> Erik: We use the sentence 14 times in 1.1, so we should be careful about changing from permission to exception
15:34:51 <John_Boyer> Steven: Why is there an implementation specific means of conveying the error?
15:36:46 <John_Boyer> John: Some processors at the time would hand over control of resolving the URL to the browser, and others were client-side code that had a better response that stayed within the current form
15:37:35 <John_Boyer> Erik: Looks like all occurrences of the value attr fail silently, so it doesn't look unintentional
15:38:03 <John_Boyer> s/like all/like most
15:38:15 <John_Boyer> Erik: In some cases we are specific about there being an error
15:40:16 <John_Boyer> Erik: If you look in the header element, failing to evaluate a header seems like it should stop the submission
15:40:54 <John_Boyer> John: Why would any of these cases be different? They are form author errors, so it seems they should always produce an error rather than fail silently.
15:41:06 <John_Boyer> Steven: Does anyone support failing silently?
15:44:49 <John_Boyer> Steven: If so, we would need to resolve that in order to reply to this.
15:45:03 <John_Boyer> John: Well, that actually isn't what the email is asking.  
15:45:50 <John_Boyer> John: He's pointing out that a ref doesn't resolve *to a node* then action has no effect.  If same expression is put into value attr, then empty string results
15:49:10 <John_Boyer> Steven: Isn't it incorrect to have the inconsistency?
15:49:31 <John_Boyer> John: ref behaves the same across all actions, doing the equivalent of being non-relevant
15:49:58 <John_Boyer> John: value can produce an empty string whether coercing an empty nodeset, or whether it finds a node that is empty
15:50:40 <John_Boyer> John: output has the same behavior, ref not resolving to a node hides the whole output including its label. value producing empty nodeset still show the output, iincluding its label and the empty string
15:52:59 <John_Boyer> ACTION: John to respond to email to indicate behavior is correct (different behavior of ref vs. value on load) according to above minutes
15:52:59 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1905 - Respond to email to indicate behavior is correct (different behavior of ref vs. value on load) according to above minutes [on John Boyer - due 2012-06-13].
15:53:17 <John_Boyer> TOPIC: FPWD of XForms 2.0
15:53:31 <John_Boyer> Steven: I'll meet up with you Nick tomorrow
15:53:46 <John_Boyer> Erik: What is blocker?
15:54:03 <John_Boyer> Nick: The references section of the expression module is busted
15:55:17 <nvdbleek> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_2.0#Common_Attributes
15:55:36 <John_Boyer> John: Also we need to resolve on promoting model to the common attributes
15:59:07 <John_Boyer> John: promoting model to common needs to come along with restricting its value to current model on bind and header plus changing wording of rebuild recalculate revalidate refresh
16:00:04 <John_Boyer> Erik: It seems better to allow the model element to appear and restrict its value, rather than the recent revision which says some elements forbid this attribute of the Common attribute group
16:02:11 <John_Boyer> John: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_2.0#The_rebuild_Element
16:02:51 <John_Boyer> Erik: rebuild recalculate revalidate refresh should say that it applies to model of current context
16:03:27 <John_Boyer> RESOLUTION: Promote model attribute to common attribute group
16:03:51 <John_Boyer> Note: further discussion needed on details of above resolution next week.
16:03:56 <Zakim> -Steven
16:04:00 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
16:04:01 <Zakim> -nvdbleek
16:04:03 <Zakim> -ebruchez
16:04:05 <Zakim> -ebruchez.a
16:04:10 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has ended
16:04:11 <Zakim> Attendees were nvdbleek, Steven, ebruchez, John_Boyer
16:04:11 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:04:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/06-forms-minutes.html Steven
16:04:24 <John_Boyer> thanks Steven
16:04:40 <Steven> Present+Alain
16:04:43 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:04:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/06-forms-minutes.html Steven
16:04:54 <Steven> THanks for scrobing, John
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