IRC log of pf on 2012-06-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

22:41:17 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #pf
22:41:17 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/05-pf-irc
22:41:21 [janina]
zakim, room for 10?
22:41:22 [Zakim]
ok, janina; conference Team_(pf)22:41Z scheduled with code 92473 (WAIPF) for 60 minutes until 2341Z
22:42:16 [silvia]
silvia has joined #pf
22:42:19 [hober]
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22:42:27 [Zakim]
Team_(pf)22:41Z has now started
22:42:34 [Zakim]
+??P0
22:42:40 [Zakim]
+JF
22:42:49 [JF]
JF has joined #pf
22:43:06 [Zakim]
+[Apple]
22:43:09 [Zakim]
+silvia
22:43:11 [hober]
Zakim, Apple has me
22:43:11 [Zakim]
+hober; got it
22:43:18 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.823.aaaa
22:43:42 [silvia]
zakim, who is here?
22:43:42 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P0, JF, [Apple], silvia, +1.408.823.aaaa
22:43:43 [Zakim]
[Apple] has hober
22:43:43 [Zakim]
On IRC I see JF, hober, silvia, RRSAgent, Zakim, MichaelC, richardschwerdtfe, janina, trackbot
22:44:03 [hober]
Zakim, ??P0 is janina
22:44:03 [Zakim]
+janina; got it
22:44:52 [janina]
zakim, aaaa is Eric
22:44:52 [Zakim]
+Eric; got it
22:44:57 [silvia]
zakim, ??P0 is Janina_Sajka
22:44:57 [Zakim]
I already had ??P0 as janina, silvia
22:45:09 [silvia]
zakim, who is here?
22:45:09 [Zakim]
On the phone I see janina, JF, [Apple], silvia, Eric
22:45:10 [Zakim]
[Apple] has hober
22:45:10 [Zakim]
On IRC I see JF, hober, silvia, RRSAgent, Zakim, MichaelC, richardschwerdtfe, janina, trackbot
22:45:12 [eric_carlson]
eric_carlson has joined #pf
22:45:45 [janina]
scribe: janina
22:45:53 [janina]
Chair: jf
22:46:10 [janina]
jf: Really one agendum, to see whether we can get to a single proposal on transcript
22:46:50 [janina]
silvia: We're optimizing to be able to display in the video -- so the video player can expose transcript
22:47:14 [janina]
silvia: Not found a player that does that
22:47:32 [janina]
q+ to ask where captions, subtitles, and video descriptions will be made available?
22:48:18 [janina]
silvia: Would be happy to know about examples or to hear that that's what someone is planning to do
22:49:13 [janina]
jf: When the nonvisual player gets to the video element they get a set of available media to run. If we put transcript outside that list that's a problem
22:49:32 [silvia]
s/display in the video/display in the video controls/
22:50:09 [janina]
jf: If there's another way, good. But we can't simply rely on a stand-alone button.
22:50:55 [silvia]
q+ (an answer)
22:51:20 [janina]
jf: We already expect authors will try to put content exclusively for screen readers into the page--and we need to provide a way to do that that will be straight forward
22:52:29 [janina]
ack janina
22:52:29 [Zakim]
janina, you wanted to ask where captions, subtitles, and video descriptions will be made available?
22:52:45 [JF]
ack (an
22:52:50 [janina]
janina: important for a11y to present all alternative options in a set of options
22:52:52 [JF]
ack answer)
22:53:09 [janina]
silvia: assuming we want transcripts and also for sighted users ...
22:53:37 [janina]
silvia: Trying to find example where transcript is displayed as part of player or on page somehow
22:54:11 [janina]
silvia: Usually displayed below video player -- always a separate area
22:54:55 [eric_carlson]
the Rachel Maddow player has a "transcript" button in the controller
22:55:36 [eric_carlson]
q+
22:55:43 [JF]
Q+
22:56:03 [janina]
silvia: I guess that's the only one i've seen
22:56:16 [JF]
ack eric
22:56:21 [janina]
eric: there's no chance we will comment on what we plan to do
22:57:05 [janina]
eric: Not sure what this conversation is about. We can't possibly require a control
22:57:21 [janina]
eric: If an author puts a transcriptinto a page, the author needs to decide whether or not it's a visible link
22:58:06 [janina]
Silvia: I'm trying to separate blind user issues from sighted user issues. They are very different.
22:59:42 [janina]
jf: Unhappy to hear "see it on screen" and such discussion ...
23:00:02 [janina]
Silvia: I wanted to start by defining what the UI experience is for the sighted user
23:00:05 [eric_carlson]
q+
23:00:11 [janina]
ack jf
23:00:39 [janina]
jf: We need the dom node to be able to enumerate available alternative media
23:00:47 [janina]
silvia: I think you're agreeing with me
23:01:07 [janina]
eric: as long as there's a programatic association, that's all we need to satisfy the a11y use case
23:01:32 [janina]
eric: But, it's unlikely there will be a control in the default controls that makes sense and works well for users
23:01:48 [janina]
eric: Don't want a button that only shows up when there's a transcript on a different page
23:02:16 [janina]
jf: agree
23:02:59 [hober]
q+
23:03:04 [janina]
jf: would be nice to have a standardized way that could be implemented in controls, that an encounteered transcript would bring up that button
23:03:18 [JF]
Q?
23:03:24 [JF]
ack eric
23:03:24 [janina]
eric: agree it would be nice, but don't find it likely to come up with how to make that work in a manner that wasn't confusing
23:03:27 [janina]
q?
23:03:43 [silvia]
q+
23:03:52 [janina]
eric: It's a much harder problem than it might seem at first glance
23:04:07 [janina]
ted: I think it would be a mistake to have normative requirements in either direction.
23:04:27 [janina]
ted: There's the opportunity for all of this UI if we provide programmatic association.
23:04:41 [janina]
jf: So, perhaps we have a lot of common ground
23:05:13 [janina]
jf: My preference would be for native UI, but if we want to allow ongoing expirimentation, I suppose that's OK
23:05:42 [janina]
jf: There's some concern that this a longdesc by proxy discussion, and don't want to take it there.
23:05:55 [janina]
jf: Want the situation that one shouldn't have to go hunting for the transcript
23:06:23 [janina]
jf: The linkage needs to be strong, i.e. "close proximity" was something Silvia had mentioned atone point. But how close is that?
23:07:06 [janina]
jf: I can live without native UI controls
23:07:32 [janina]
Silvia: If we agree native controls is not the reason for programmatic association
23:07:49 [janina]
Silvia: My reason is that that's how I can make the screen reader aware that a transcript is available
23:08:40 [janina]
jf: I could imagine a situation where the sighted user turns the transcript display on and off, similar to captions
23:08:41 [silvia]
q+
23:08:59 [janina]
ack hober
23:09:34 [janina]
ack silvia
23:09:48 [janina]
silvia: there's a big difference between transcripts and captions
23:10:36 [janina]
silvia: If only the screen reader use case, we should rely on aria
23:11:12 [janina]
jf: so you don't buy the use case I just presented?
23:14:31 [janina]
janina: Object to describing caption display on the video as an intended design
23:15:11 [janina]
jf: And the discussion is still all about display, but the not where it's rendered, it's about consuming the alternative media
23:16:25 [janina]
jf: It's important to be able to choose how to consujme the content, primary and alternative
23:16:39 [janina]
silvia: but won't be viewing the transcript and video at the same time as a blind user
23:16:51 [janina]
janina: disagree
23:16:53 [janina]
jf: disagree
23:17:43 [janina]
silvia: don't think we have a disagreement that the blind user needs to know there's a transcript
23:17:51 [janina]
jf: insist that's all users' need
23:18:23 [janina]
silvia: if there's to be hiding of the transcript, it will be hidden from all
23:18:33 [janina]
jf: why?
23:18:44 [hober]
q+
23:18:58 [janina]
jf: this is bigger than just blind users
23:19:33 [silvia]
q?
23:19:45 [janina]
q+ to say that a blind user might well read transcript while viewing the video--with a refreshable braille display
23:20:42 [janina]
jf: my problem with Ted's proposal is that it's not sufficiently githtly integrated. We could end up with orphaned content, easily.
23:20:58 [janina]
ted: two things ...
23:21:19 [janina]
ted: agree it would be a mistake to create a programmatic association that assumes it's forever only for a11y
23:22:01 [janina]
ted: goal should be that we want to bring sr user to parity with sighted user in access to transcript
23:22:20 [janina]
ted: on the other hand, hiding the transcript makes it inaccessible to the sighted user
23:22:57 [janina]
ted: aria-[something] would suggest only for a11y
23:23:13 [janina]
ted: disagree about the copy-paste scenario ...
23:23:21 [Zakim]
-silvia
23:23:31 [janina]
ted: any method if transcript is elsewhere in the dom is going to be a problem
23:24:16 [janina]
ted: reason the copy-paste is a problem is exactly because they're not contiguous in the dom necessarily
23:25:15 [janina]
Silvia: 92473# you have that zakim code?
23:25:42 [Zakim]
+silvia
23:25:57 [janina]
jf: prefer a dedicated name because it will be much clearer than <div>
23:26:23 [janina]
jf: It's not perfect, but it gets us to that
23:26:39 [janina]
jf: a random container, iframe, etc., too much possibility to lose the association
23:26:56 [silvia]
q?
23:27:16 [janina]
ack janina
23:27:16 [Zakim]
janina, you wanted to say that a blind user might well read transcript while viewing the video--with a refreshable braille display
23:27:21 [janina]
ack hober
23:27:27 [silvia]
q+
23:28:01 [janina]
silvia: sorry i dropped, want to summarize what i think i understand from the scribing ...
23:28:20 [janina]
silvia: copy-paste will be difficult however
23:28:44 [janina]
jf: so how best to minimize the problem?
23:29:30 [silvia]
q+
23:29:59 [janina]
jf: If you're looking at source and find something called <transcript>, much liklier to copy-paste all the way through </transcript> -- much more easily than div plus id, etc
23:30:23 [janina]
silvia: may help slightly for copy-past issue
23:30:36 [janina]
silvia: want to try and bil down to the core issues
23:31:01 [janina]
silvia: #1 when visible on page -- only people who want to hear it at the point of getting to the video
23:31:45 [janina]
silvia: #2 When we want to make sure that copying the video includes copying the transcript -- perhaps somehow it's in the context menu?
23:32:45 [janina]
silvia: could even be a hash offset if transcript is right on page
23:33:13 [janina]
silvia: #3 is the interactive transcript -- believe we need an element for that
23:33:56 [janina]
ted: I agree interactive transcripts are really interesting, but believe it's premature to specify a mechanism for them
23:33:57 [eric_carlson]
+10
23:34:34 [janina]
jf: so a landmark element
23:34:45 [janina]
ted: but people can expiriment without the landmark
23:35:01 [janina]
silvia: it's just linking to a vtt file
23:35:21 [janina]
ted: constraining by minting an element called transcript
23:35:34 [janina]
ted: if we create an element, it should do something -- not just be a placeholder
23:35:49 [janina]
jf: want to etease this apart
23:36:08 [janina]
jf: what's the downside if it is only a placeholder
23:36:50 [janina]
jf: but there is the available scenario that we do know that copy-paste reduces orphaning problem
23:36:55 [janina]
ted: reduces it only slightly
23:37:01 [janina]
jf: something is better than nothing, no?
23:37:09 [silvia]
<transcript mediagroup="g1">
23:37:10 [silvia]
  <track src="transcript.vtt" srclang="de">
23:37:10 [silvia]
 <track src="transcript.vtt" srclang="en">
23:37:10 [silvia]
</transcript>
23:37:24 [janina]
jf: e.g. aside -- it's an old stage play thing
23:37:38 [silvia]
<video mediagroup="g1" src=video controls></video>
23:37:48 [silvia]
+
23:37:48 [janina]
jf: if html.next wants to layer additional, great
23:37:53 [silvia]
q+
23:38:11 [janina]
q+ to ask whether there's any doubt we're going to more and more use of transcript
23:38:16 [janina]
ack silvia
23:38:53 [eric_carlson]
q+
23:39:29 [JF]
ack janina
23:39:29 [Zakim]
janina, you wanted to ask whether there's any doubt we're going to more and more use of transcript
23:40:26 [janina]
janina: suggest transcript very powerful for navigation and indexing especially
23:40:28 [JF]
Q+
23:40:29 [silvia]
q+
23:40:35 [JF]
ack eric
23:40:39 [janina]
eric: agree, but disagree that we create problems by not standardizing some of this now
23:41:16 [janina]
eric: think it unlikely with time left for html 5.0 that we can sufficiently well define how this element should behave
23:41:29 [janina]
eric: it's complex yet subtle behavior
23:41:41 [janina]
eric: a high chance we'll spec something incorrectly
23:42:02 [janina]
eric: when media was first added, it's very different now because it took time to get it all worked out
23:42:11 [janina]
eric: as it happened, i implemented ev3ry version on the way
23:42:49 [janina]
eric: pointin to the live examples currently on the web, done with flash, points out that it is doable now
23:42:56 [janina]
eric: suggest it can be scripted now
23:43:10 [janina]
eric: but if we spec it now we will not get it right
23:43:27 [janina]
eric: and we'll be stuck with it--so strongly object to shoe-horning it in at this point
23:44:12 [janina]
jf: q: if we spec'd only as landmark but leaves the door open
23:44:15 [janina]
I lost audio
23:44:53 [silvia]
ted: creating a placeholder element will close the door on some things
23:45:13 [silvia]
eric: the element has to have a behaviour associated
23:45:19 [silvia]
q?
23:46:21 [silvia]
eric: I can't change the behaviour of a created element
23:46:24 [janina]
I can't get back in
23:46:27 [silvia]
ack JF
23:46:41 [silvia]
JF: how do I get around the orphaning problem?
23:46:41 [janina]
I'll follow irc
23:48:51 [JF]
scribe: JF
23:49:12 [janina]
rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
23:49:27 [JF]
EG: there are differences in the way Interactive Transcripts (ITS for here on in) render
23:49:49 [JF]
SP: there differences are in the WebVTT cues
23:50:02 [JF]
there are styling idfferences
23:50:32 [JF]
believe we can get around that by starting with basic interactivity and then build upon that
23:50:36 [janina]
rrsagent, make log public
23:50:42 [janina]
rrsagent, make minutes
23:50:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/05-pf-minutes.html janina
23:50:50 [JF]
but agree that we shouldn't start out with half-sorted solutions
23:51:10 [JF]
so can likely defer that to HTML.next
23:51:34 [JF]
SP: so if we can live with that, we can close the ITS discussion for now
23:51:42 [silvia]
silvia: let's first finalize the interactive transcript discussion
23:52:01 [JF]
EC: agree, and we need to do more than just say we will defer it to HTML.next, we need to start the discussion now
23:52:20 [silvia]
silvia: I think we could create a basic <transcript> element now and finalize more functionality in html.next, but I appreciate that we might now want to put a semi-done work into HTML5
23:52:25 [JF]
so taht we can start to hone in on what we mean, and experiments can start
23:52:35 [JF]
s/taht/that/
23:52:46 [silvia]
silvia: I can personally live with pointing ppl at JS libraries for this problem for now and solving it properly in HTML.next
23:53:02 [hober]
q+
23:53:08 [silvia]
EC: let's start discussing, but not put it into HTML5
23:53:25 [JF]
ack silvia
23:53:56 [JF]
SP want to ensure that we are in agreement about defering ITS until later
23:54:01 [silvia]
silvia: is Janina in agreement with moving the interactive transcript problem to HTML.next?
23:54:05 [JF]
Janina, are you comfortable with that as well?
23:55:42 [JF]
?me telepathy...
23:55:53 [JF]
s/?me telepathy...//
23:56:22 [silvia]
q?
23:57:22 [silvia]
q+
23:57:54 [JF]
ack hober
23:58:37 [silvia]
q-
23:59:56 [silvia]
q+
00:00:32 [JF]
zakim, whos here?
00:00:32 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, JF.
00:00:40 [silvia]
ted: my problem with a URL on the video element is that that would duplicate URLS when we have it on-page as well
00:00:56 [janina]
I can live with moving interactive to .next
00:01:04 [Zakim]
-[Apple]
00:03:24 [silvia]
ted: another problem is that the page's url may not be defined at the time of creation of the page, so it's fragile
00:03:47 [silvia]
ted: have to leave, sorry
00:05:37 [silvia]
JF: shall we stop here, go back to email and meet again
00:05:53 [silvia]
eric/silvia: we've made progress, so yes
00:05:56 [janina]
I'll work with Michael to move these minutes to the TF page
00:06:16 [silvia]
JF: hoping to get more time out of the chairs so we can resolve this
00:08:23 [Zakim]
-Eric
00:08:26 [Zakim]
-silvia
00:08:28 [Zakim]
-JF
00:08:34 [janina]
rrsagent make minutes
00:08:35 [silvia]
JF: maybe meet this week Friday
00:08:43 [janina]
Yes.
00:08:51 [silvia]
silvia: I'll write a summary email, please chip into the discussion
00:13:29 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, janina, in Team_(pf)22:41Z
00:13:30 [Zakim]
Team_(pf)22:41Z has ended
00:13:30 [Zakim]
Attendees were JF, silvia, hober, +1.408.823.aaaa, janina, Eric
00:17:31 [janina]
rrsagent, make minutes
00:17:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/05-pf-minutes.html janina
00:17:37 [janina]
zakim, bye
00:17:37 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #pf
00:17:47 [janina]
rrsagent, make minutes
00:17:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/05-pf-minutes.html janina
03:10:19 [silvia]
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