16:44:15 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:44:15 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-ua-irc
16:44:17 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:44:17 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ua
16:44:19 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:44:19 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 16 minutes
16:44:20 <trackbot> Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:44:20 <trackbot> Date: 31 May 2012
16:44:28 <JAllan> rrsagent, set logs public
16:54:36 <JAllan> Chair: Jim Allan, Kelly Ford
16:54:38 <JAllan> Latest editor's draft -
16:54:40 <JAllan> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2012/ED-UAAG20-20120524/
16:54:41 <JAllan>  Agenda+ Close down principle 1
16:54:43 <JAllan> Agenda+  1.11.1 & 1.11.2 Action-467 Jim (revise for proposal) -
16:54:44 <JAllan> Agenda+ Action-630 revised
16:54:46 <JAllan> Agenda+ Action-733: definition of shortcut
16:54:47 <JAllan> Agenda+ RE: UAWG action 729 re: stylesheet defn
16:55:26 <kford> kford has joined #ua
16:55:36 <kford> zakim, agenda?
16:55:36 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
16:55:37 <Zakim> 1. Close down principle 1 [from JAllan]
16:55:37 <Zakim> 2. 1.11.1 & 1.11.2 Action-467 Jim (revise for proposal) - [from JAllan]
16:55:37 <Zakim> 3. Action-630 revised [from JAllan]
16:55:37 <Zakim> 4. Action-733: definition of shortcut [from JAllan]
16:55:37 <Zakim> 5. RE: UAWG action 729 re: stylesheet defn [from JAllan]
16:55:57 <kford> 1
16:59:16 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #ua
17:00:16 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:00:23 <Zakim> +Jeanne
17:00:55 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:01:06 <kford> zakim, microsoft is kford
17:01:06 <Zakim> +kford; got it
17:01:07 <Zakim> +Jim_Allan
17:01:53 <Zakim> +Greg_Lowney
17:02:48 <JAllan> regrets: simon, mark
17:04:23 <Greg> Greg has joined #ua
17:09:25 <KimPatch> KimPatch has joined #ua
17:13:19 <jeanne> zakim, who is here?
17:13:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jeanne, kford, Jim_Allan, Greg_Lowney
17:13:20 <Zakim> On IRC I see KimPatch, Greg, jeanne, kford, Zakim, RRSAgent, JAllan, trackbot
17:13:21 <Zakim> +Kim_Patch
17:17:16 <JAllan> zakim, agenda?
17:17:16 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
17:17:18 <Zakim> 1. Close down principle 1 [from JAllan]
17:17:18 <Zakim> 2. 1.11.1 & 1.11.2 Action-467 Jim (revise for proposal) - [from JAllan]
17:17:18 <Zakim> 3. Action-630 revised [from JAllan]
17:17:18 <Zakim> 4. Action-733: definition of shortcut [from JAllan]
17:17:18 <Zakim> 5. RE: UAWG action 729 re: stylesheet defn [from JAllan]
17:18:56 <kford> Scribe: kford
17:19:05 <kford> zakim, take up item 2
17:19:05 <Zakim> agendum 2. "1.11.1 & 1.11.2 Action-467 Jim (revise for proposal) -" taken up [from JAllan]
17:19:25 <JAllan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0092.html
17:19:35 <JAllan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0091.html
17:20:52 <kford> JA going over research he did on this topic.
17:21:24 <kford> JA: My proposal was to leave 1.11.1 alone and just add the resources.
17:21:52 <JAllan> 1.11.1 Access Relationships: The user can access explicitly-defined relationships based on the user's position in content (e.g. show form control's label, show label's form control, show a cell's table headers). (Level A)
17:24:12 <kford> JA: Bottom line is that 1.11.1 has remained unchanged.
17:26:49 <kford> Group talking about moving 1.11.1 to level AA.
17:27:11 <kford> KFord: I don't want to block on tablke headers.
17:27:19 <Greg> The wording "based on the user's position in content" is not used elsewhere, and is somewhat vague, but not a show-stopper.
17:29:25 <kford> Resolved: 1.11.1 text staying the same. Level moving to AA.
17:32:50 <JAllan> scribe: jallan
17:33:27 <JAllan> kelly: reviews 1.11.2...its a mess. why is this needed, what is the accessibility case
17:34:31 <JAllan> kf: if we didn't have this, who would it deny access to.
17:35:39 <jeanne> JA: I can see the doc type from the status bar
17:35:55 <JAllan> kf: how would folks feel about deleting 1.11.2
17:35:59 <jeanne> KF: The browser should expose the status bar, but that is covered elsewhere
17:36:32 <jeanne> Greg: I'm not sure that opening a window or tab is the problem that it once was.  
17:36:38 <JAllan> gl: title covered by something else. not convinced that opening in new window or tab is not as big a problem as it used to be.
17:37:06 <kford> Now to Kim: opening in a new window is one of the big complaints I hear.
17:37:53 <jeanne> ... but this SC is very different from what my users want
17:38:00 <kford> KFord: Kim can you clarify this.
17:38:12 <JAllan> kp: how to open content in a new window or tab
17:38:23 <kford> Kim: My users want to know how to opena  link in a new window.
17:38:36 <JAllan> scribe: kford
17:38:50 <kford> Kim: My users want to control this, if you can do that then their needs would be covered.
17:39:01 <JAllan> scribe: jallan
17:39:50 <JAllan> kf: kim, explain accessibility reason for having this,
17:40:20 <JAllan> kp: can't see two tabs at the same time. easy to switch or see two windows at the same time.
17:41:14 <JAllan> kf: IE and FF have settings for controlling open of links in new tabs or windows
17:42:14 <JAllan> kp: functionality is there, but it needs to be attached to the keyboard
17:43:03 <JAllan> ja: seems to be more of an education issue rather than functionality issue.
17:43:46 <JAllan> kf: control-enter opens in new tab, control-shift-enter opens in new window
17:44:31 <JAllan> kp: mouseless browsing numbers with a control to open in a new tab would work
17:47:13 <JAllan> kf: we have a SC for direct selection of links, but do we need another SC for this new functionality
17:47:37 <JAllan> kp: after checking...all functionality is there. its just education
17:47:50 <JAllan> kf: 1.11.2 should be deleted
17:47:58 <JAllan> scribe: kford
17:48:09 <kford> Resolved: group deleting 1.11.2
17:49:39 <kford> Issue: In UAAG next address need to be able to directly activate a link and control target of the link opening i.e. new window, new tab for speech users.
17:49:39 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-93 - In UAAG next address need to be able to directly activate a link and control target of the link opening i.e. new window, new tab for speech users. ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/93/edit .
17:49:54 <JAllan> close action-647
17:49:54 <trackbot> ACTION-647 Write a scoping NOTE about Guideline 4.1 closed
17:50:14 <JAllan> close action-467
17:50:14 <trackbot> ACTION-467 Revise 1.11.1 and 1.11.2 make proposal to the group closed
17:50:50 <kford> Action: JS to delete 1.11.2 from document after group consensus.
17:50:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-734 - Delete 1.11.2 from document after group consensus. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2012-06-07].
17:51:09 <JAllan> zakim, close item 2
17:51:09 <Zakim> agendum 2, 1.11.1 & 1.11.2 Action-467 Jim (revise for proposal) -, closed
17:51:11 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:51:11 <Zakim> 1. Close down principle 1 [from JAllan]
17:51:21 <kford> zakim, take up item 3
17:51:21 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Action-630 revised" taken up [from JAllan]
17:51:33 <JAllan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0088.html
17:52:10 <jeanne> close action-467
17:52:10 <trackbot> ACTION-467 Revise 1.11.1 and 1.11.2 make proposal to the group closed
17:52:43 <Greg> Minor editorial: change "are true" to "occur" or the like.
17:52:47 <jeanne> close action-734 complete
17:53:05 <jeanne> action-734 complete
17:53:14 <jeanne> close action-734
17:53:14 <trackbot> ACTION-734 Delete 1.11.2 from document after group consensus. closed
17:56:02 <Greg> How about "The point of regard remains within the visible portion of the viewport, and where possible at the same location within the viewport, when any or all of the following occur..."
17:57:27 <Greg> The way I think of point of regard is it's whichever changed most recently: the focus location, or selection, or find results, or content at the leading edge of the viewport.
17:59:07 <Greg> Consider replacing "point of regard" with "area of regard" to acknowledge the fact that it's usually not just a point but a region.
17:59:56 <JAllan> New definition:
17:59:58 <JAllan> point of regard
17:59:59 <JAllan> The point of regard is the portion of rendered content that the user
18:00:01 <JAllan> is presumed to be viewing. The dimensions of the point of regard may
18:00:02 <JAllan> vary. For example, it may be a two-dimensional area (e.g. content
18:00:04 <JAllan> rendered through a two-dimensional graphical viewport), or a point
18:00:06 <JAllan> (e.g. a moment during an audio rendering or a cursor position in a
18:00:07 <JAllan> graphical rendering), or a range of text (e.g. focused text). The
18:00:09 <JAllan> point of regard is almost always within the viewport, but it may
18:00:10 <JAllan> exceed the spatial or temporal dimensions of the viewport (see the
18:00:12 <JAllan> definition of rendered content for more information about viewport
18:00:13 <JAllan> dimensions).
18:00:15 <JAllan> The point of regard may also refer to a particular moment in time for
18:00:17 <JAllan> content that changes over time (e.g. an audio-only presentation).
18:00:19 <JAllan> User agents may determine the point of regard in a number of ways,
18:00:21 <JAllan> including, based on viewport position in content, keyboard focus, and
18:00:23 <JAllan> selection. The stability of the point of regard is addressed by 1.8.z
18:01:29 <Greg> What we really mean might be closer to "Where possible, the *entire* point of regard remains within the visible portion of the viewport, and at the same location within the viewport, when any or all of the following occur..."?
18:02:39 <jeanne> how do we communicate these subtleties to the poor developer trying to figure out what we mean? 
18:03:03 <kford> Group continuing to discuss this topic.
18:06:35 <JAllan> leading edge, selected or focused, or whatever changed last should remain in the viewport
18:08:41 <JAllan> 1.8.z Maintain Point of Regard: The point of regard remains at the
18:08:43 <JAllan> same relative location within the visible portion of the viewport when
18:08:45 <JAllan> any or all of the following are true:
18:08:46 <JAllan> (a) the viewport is resized; or
18:08:48 <JAllan> (b) the zoom/scale on the viewport is changed; or
18:08:50 <JAllan> (c) the formatting of some or all of the content changes (e.g. font or
18:08:51 <JAllan> text size, causing content to change height and/or rewrap).
18:08:53 <JAllan> UNLESS there is focused or selected content INSIDE the pre-zoomed
18:08:55 <JAllan> viewport, in which case the focused/selected content remains in the
18:08:56 <JAllan> post-zoom viewport.
18:09:02 <JAllan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0088.html
18:11:18 <Greg> "To the extent possible, the point of regard remains visible and at the same location within the viewport when the viewport is resized, content is zoomed or scaled, or formatting of content changes."
18:12:09 <kford> rrsagent, make minutes
18:12:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-ua-minutes.html kford
18:12:39 <kford> Present: Greg, Jim, Kim, Jeanne
18:13:00 <kford> Regrets: Mark, Simon, Jan
18:13:10 <kford> rrsagent, make minutes:
18:13:10 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes:', kford.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:13:19 <kford> rrsagent, make minutes
18:13:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-ua-minutes.html kford
18:13:32 <kford> Jeanne: I like Greg's solution.
18:13:40 <kford> Kim: I like it as well.
18:13:42 <Greg> "The point of regard remains within the visible portion of the viewport, and at the same location within the viewport, when the viewport is resized, content is zoomed or scaled, or formatting of content changes." We could relegate to the IER the recommendation of what to do when viewpoint can no longer show the the entire point of regard.
18:15:38 <KimPatch> 	"To the extent possible, the point of regard remains visible and at the same location within the viewport when the viewport is resized, content is zoomed or scaled, or formatting of content changes."
18:15:57 <JAllan> 1.8.z Maintain Point of Regard:
18:16:41 <JAllan> Intent:  It can be disorienting and confusing when a user changes the
18:16:43 <JAllan> viewport size or zooms the content and the current content shifts out
18:16:44 <JAllan> of the viewport causing different content on the same page to be
18:16:46 <JAllan> displayed in the viewport. Just as the location in audio does not
18:16:47 <JAllan> change when the user increases the volume, the current point of regard
18:16:49 <JAllan> should not change when the user changes the size of the window or
18:16:51 <JAllan> zooms the content.
18:16:53 <JAllan> Starting with the base assumption that regardless of other items that
18:16:54 <JAllan> may have focus, or be selected, the current viewport is that
18:16:56 <JAllan> information which is visible to the user within the bounds of the user
18:16:57 <JAllan> agent content area. When any of the SC conditions are met, the user
18:16:59 <JAllan> agent should maintain the same top-left (top-right for RTL) corner
18:17:01 <JAllan> UNLESS there is focused or selected content INSIDE the pre-zoomed
18:17:03 <JAllan> viewport, in which case the focused/selected content remains in the
18:17:04 <JAllan> post-zoom viewport. {repeated for emphasis}
18:17:06 <JAllan> Note: "Content" and "selected" are used because there may be cases
18:17:08 <JAllan> where the viewport is zooming into just part of an element (e.g. if I
18:17:09 <JAllan> select a few words of text that are part of a <p> and zoom in)
18:17:11 <JAllan> Examples of Success Criterion 1.8.z
18:17:13 <JAllan> -- Jorge is a low vision user. While viewing a webpage he sees a
18:17:15 <JAllan> picture with a caption that is too small to read. He highlights the
18:17:17 <JAllan> caption, then uses the browsers zoom feature to increase the size of
18:17:19 <JAllan> the content so he can read the caption. Through the zooming process
18:17:20 <JAllan> the highlighted caption remains in the viewport, allowing Jorge to
18:17:22 <JAllan> keep oriented on the caption and begin reading it when the appropriate
18:17:24 <JAllan> content size is reached.
18:17:26 <JAllan> Later while reading on a page, Jorge finds some text that is too large
18:17:28 <JAllan> to read. The beginning of the large text is at the top of the bowser
18:17:29 <JAllan> content area. He uses the zoom feature to make the content smaller.
18:17:31 <JAllan> the text is reduced to a confortable reading size and the beginning of
18:17:33 <JAllan> the text remains at the top of the browser window.
18:17:34 <JAllan> -- Melissa has a distraction disorder. She is doing research for
18:17:36 <JAllan> school. She scrolls the content so the relevant section heading the
18:17:38 <JAllan> top line of the browser. She resizes the browser so she can see her
18:17:40 <JAllan> notes and the browser at the same time. After resizing the browser the
18:17:41 <JAllan> heading is still the top line of the viewport.
18:17:43 <JAllan> -- Xu has a reading disability. He needs only the text on a page to be
18:17:45 <JAllan> larger. He is reading a page with footnotes that are too small to
18:17:47 <JAllan> read. Xu places the footnote at the top of the browser, and using the
18:17:49 <JAllan> increase font-size feature, he increases the font-size of the text on
18:17:51 <JAllan> the page. The footnotes stay on the top of the viewport.
18:21:03 <Greg> I'd add that in addition to being disorienting and confusing, the user may be forced to expend considerable time and effort finding and navigating back to the place where they were working.
18:21:22 <JAllan> Users may have to expend considerable time an effort to re-navigate back to their previous point of regard.
18:21:44 <Greg> First sentence needs editing, as it runs on now.
18:22:49 <Greg> It could start "User can be confused and disoriented when the area where they are working suddenly shifts outside the visible region of the viewport... In addition, the user may be forced..."
18:23:48 <JAllan> close Action-630
18:23:49 <trackbot> ACTION-630 Propose SC on maintaining point of regard when scaling the page closed
18:24:09 <kford> zakim, close item 3
18:24:09 <Zakim> agendum 3, Action-630 revised, closed
18:24:10 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:24:10 <Zakim> 1. Close down principle 1 [from JAllan]
18:24:22 <kford> zakim, take up item 4
18:24:22 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Action-733: definition of shortcut" taken up [from JAllan]
18:24:38 <JAllan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0080.html
18:26:01 <JAllan> proposed: 
18:26:05 <JAllan> *shortcut*
18:26:07 <JAllan> A command that's tied to a particular UI control or application 
18:26:09 <JAllan> function, allowing the user to navigate to or activate the control or 
18:26:11 <JAllan> function without traversing any intervening controls. A shortcut is 
18:26:12 <JAllan> modality independent, meaning it is accessible by any input method (e.g. 
18:26:14 <JAllan> keyboard, mouse, speech, touch or gesture). Also see Modality 
18:26:16 <JAllan> Independence Principle.
18:26:29 <JAllan> Shortcut definition*
18:26:30 <JAllan> *keyboard command (keyboard binding, keyboard shortcut or accelerator keys)*
18:26:32 <JAllan> A key or set of keys that are tied to a particular UI control or 
18:26:33 <JAllan> application function, allowing the user to navigate to or activate the 
18:26:35 <JAllan> control or function without traversing any intervening controls (e.g. 
18:26:37 <JAllan> "ctrl"+"S" to save a document). It is sometimes useful to distinguish 
18:26:38 <JAllan> keyboard commands that are associated with controls that are rendered in 
18:26:40 <JAllan> the current context (e.g. "alt"+"D" to move focus to the address bar) 
18:26:42 <JAllan> from those that may be able to activate program functionality that is 
18:26:43 <JAllan> not associated with any currently rendered controls (e.g. "F1" to open 
18:26:45 <JAllan> the Help system). Keyboard commands help users accelerate their 
18:26:46 <JAllan> selections. Also see Shortcut.
18:31:21 <kford> GL: Trying to underand exactly what is meant by command.
18:31:45 <kford> Kim: A command is the act of communicating with a computer.
18:34:35 <kford> More discussion around this.  Trying to get clarification.
18:35:29 <JAllan> scribe: jallan
18:35:31 <Zakim> -kford
18:39:17 <Zakim> -Kim_Patch
18:39:24 <JAllan> zakim, close item 4
18:39:24 <Zakim> agendum 4, Action-733: definition of shortcut, closed
18:39:25 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:39:25 <Zakim> 1. Close down principle 1 [from JAllan]
18:39:28 <Zakim> -Jim_Allan
18:39:30 <Zakim> -Greg_Lowney
18:39:45 <JAllan> rrsagent, make minutes
18:39:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:39:48 <Zakim> -Jeanne
18:39:49 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:39:49 <Zakim> Attendees were Jeanne, kford, Jim_Allan, Greg_Lowney, Kim_Patch
18:42:38 <JAllan> zakim, please part
18:42:38 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ua
18:42:44 <JAllan> rrsagent, make minutes
18:42:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:42:54 <JAllan> rrsagent, please part
18:42:54 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-ua-actions.rdf :
18:42:54 <RRSAgent> ACTION: JS to delete 1.11.2 from document after group consensus. [1]
18:42:54 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-ua-irc#T17-50-50