21:00:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
21:00:11 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-svg-irc
21:00:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
21:00:15 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
21:00:15 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)5:00PM scheduled to start now
21:00:16 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
21:00:16 <trackbot> Date: 31 May 2012
21:00:49 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)5:00PM has now started
21:00:56 <Zakim> +??P20
21:01:02 <ed> Zakim, ??P20 is me
21:01:02 <Zakim> +ed; got it
21:01:27 <ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJun/0067.html
21:01:29 <Zakim> +??P21
21:01:38 <cyril> zakim, p21 is me
21:01:38 <Zakim> sorry, cyril, I do not recognize a party named 'p21'
21:01:43 <cyril> zakim, ??p21 is me
21:01:43 <Zakim> +cyril; got it
21:01:56 <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aaaa
21:02:14 <Zakim> +??P25
21:02:17 <heycam> Zakim, ??P25 is me
21:02:19 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
21:02:42 <Zakim> +nikos
21:02:49 <krit> zakim, aaaa is me
21:02:49 <Zakim> +krit; got it
21:03:58 <Zakim> +krit.a
21:04:33 <Tav> zakim, krit.a is me
21:04:33 <Zakim> +Tav; got it
21:05:13 <krit> scribenick krit
21:05:25 <heycam> scribenick: krit
21:05:36 <krit> topic: SVG 2 update
21:06:00 <krit> ed: when do we publish first draft
21:06:07 <krit> heycam: july
21:06:16 <krit> ed: a lot of edits are not in the spec yet
21:06:27 <krit> ed: get the tings into the spec that you assigned for
21:06:31 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Commitments
21:06:38 <krit> heycam: more actual spec edits
21:06:45 <krit> ed: I did some edits
21:06:51 <krit> ed: like text-overflow
21:07:04 <krit> ed: I get throw my actions but did not commit yet
21:07:25 <krit> ed: any updates to discuss?
21:07:55 <krit> cyril: can we have a link to the chapter where the  edits were made?
21:08:01 <krit> ed: on the wiki?
21:08:12 <krit> cyril: yes, a link on the wiki to the change on the spec
21:08:29 <krit> cyril: it could help
21:08:41 <krit> Tav: it could move
21:08:59 <krit> cyril: e.g z-index, where is it?
21:09:06 <krit> Tav: I don't remeber :)
21:09:14 <krit> cyril: found i
21:09:15 <krit> t
21:09:25 <krit> Tav: might be good to have a link
21:09:26 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
21:10:03 <krit> krit: Question, what styling on element definition?
21:10:13 <krit> heycam: have not tried the lrecently one
21:10:30 <krit> Tav: as a proposal, a table seems to be ok
21:10:49 <krit> Tav: problems with table might be semantcis, but that is ok and can be fixed later
21:11:04 <krit> Tav: SVG 1.1 has certain IDs that are used
21:11:20 <krit> Tav: but there seems no trouble to switch to heycam proposal without it
21:11:28 <krit> heycam: yes i think that is ok
21:11:33 <krit> Tav: me too
21:11:34 <ed> s/I get throw my actions but did not commit yet/I went through my actions and am working on some edits, but they are not yet ready to be committed/
21:11:56 <krit> heycam: you are aksing because of edits that you are doing?
21:12:09 <krit> krit: yes, I would like to have a style at the beginning
21:12:16 <krit> heycam: can be changed later easily
21:12:18 <krit> Tav: yes
21:12:26 <cyril> zakim, mute me
21:12:26 <Zakim> cyril should now be muted
21:12:33 <krit> heycam: I finished most of marker stuff
21:12:53 <cyril> zakim, unmute me
21:12:53 <Zakim> cyril should no longer be muted
21:13:25 <krit> heycam: I am not happy about the 2nd part of the marker spec, but it can be discussed on the list
21:13:43 <krit> cyril: I reviewed marker and have a list of changes, send it tomorrow to the list
21:14:14 <krit> Tav: everyone is interessted on it, so it might be better
21:14:26 <krit> heycam: I mean public list or wg list
21:14:33 <krit> s/heycam/	cyril
21:14:39 <heycam> we should use www-svg for technical discussion
21:14:43 <krit> s/heycam/cyril/
21:14:51 <krit> heycam: we should use www-svg
21:15:05 <krit> general agreement to www-svg
21:16:13 <krit> ed: next topic
21:16:22 <krit> topic: seattle/paris F2F
21:16:34 <krit> cyril: I made tests with Alan in Seattle
21:16:49 <krit> cyril: he just used desktop client, we the equipment
21:16:54 <krit> cyril: it worked
21:17:08 <krit> cyril: the adobe equipment could work as well
21:17:25 <krit> cyril: we have to confirm that the meeting are done as discussed
21:17:27 <heycam> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJun/0063.html
21:17:35 <krit> cyril: I think the time slots of cameron are fine
21:18:19 <krit> Tav: will we be able to call in?
21:18:37 <krit> Tav: maybe i can go to seattle with the help of inkscape
21:18:45 <krit> Tav: (small chance)
21:19:00 <krit> cyril: I thought it would be helpful for people from europe
21:19:14 <krit> Tav: yeah, but am not in paris at that time
21:19:20 <krit> ed: I would come
21:19:26 <krit> cyril: jwatt?
21:19:30 <krit> heycam: unlikely
21:19:41 <krit> cyril: who else would come to paris?
21:19:46 <krit> cyril: so far we have 3?
21:20:30 <krit> cyril: Is it worth to have a meeting in paris for just three? rooms are empty anyway
21:20:49 <krit> cyril: we have polycom equ. so we have everything for video conference
21:21:06 <krit> cyril: fine if we are just 3?
21:21:08 <krit> ed: yes
21:21:42 <krit> krit: did all people already assigned so far?
21:21:47 <krit> cyril: 9 so far
21:21:53 <krit> cyril: doug is not
21:23:21 <krit> krit: I'll take car of hotel opertunities for seattle
21:23:41 <krit> heycam: time is good. We can publish WD a couple of days later
21:24:19 <krit> resolve: We go with the proposed time slots, meeting split to Seattle and Paris
21:24:28 <krit> resolution: We go with the proposed time slots, meeting split to Seattle and Paris
21:24:47 <krit> topic: SVG 2 styling
21:25:03 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJun/0057.html
21:25:09 <glenn> glenn has joined #svg
21:26:04 <krit> krit: I just was not happy about the red color on elements
21:26:21 <cyril> zakim, mute me
21:26:21 <Zakim> cyril should now be muted
21:26:32 <krit> krit: continue with smaller and bold text for attributes and elements
21:26:48 <krit> heycam: I am fine if there are solutions that make it better
21:27:48 <krit> heycam: list of quted attribute or element list might look scarry
21:28:08 <krit> krit: do you have an example?
21:28:18 <krit> heycam: try to get an example?
21:28:22 <heycam> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/shapes.html#RectElement -- click the "show" next to "presentation attributes"
21:29:05 <krit> krit: looks ok for me
21:30:23 <krit> krit: quotes are inside of links on attributes and elements, but outside for properties
21:30:35 <krit> heycam: I try to change it and look how it looks liek
21:30:48 <krit> Tav: heycam: but it is good as it is
21:30:59 <heycam> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/pservers.html#MeshGradients has an example of this note
21:31:33 <krit> krit: current style looks great, will we have the same style on WD?
21:31:46 <krit> heycam: yes, with exception of background
21:32:27 <krit> heycam: for WD, do we want to publish it without background colors?
21:32:32 <ed> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/text.html#TextOverflowProcessing
21:32:34 <krit> krit: I think so, yes
21:32:40 <krit> ed: that is fine for me
21:33:34 <krit> ed: yellow background should be reviewable text
21:33:45 <krit> krit: but do we want to have backgrounds on WD at all?
21:34:01 <krit> heycam: might be ok to have different styles for publishing WD
21:34:12 <krit> heycam: we don't want to have annotations either
21:35:37 <krit> krit: property and attributes have different blueish colors
21:35:42 <krit> heycam: yes, planned
21:36:04 <krit> krit: what for presentation attributes, should they be the attribute blue, or property blue?
21:36:23 <krit> heycam: they should have the attribute blue
21:37:33 <heycam> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/attindex.html#PresentationAttributes
21:37:50 <krit> krit: at the moement spec is not talking about presentation attr, but about the property, does this change for current attributes that move to presentation attributes as well?
21:37:58 <krit> heycam: they might later, yes
21:38:11 <krit> ed: next topic
21:38:26 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012May/0100.html
21:38:36 <ed> topic: should we remove glyph-orientation-{horizontal,vertical}?
21:38:37 <krit> topic: Remove glyph orientation vertical and horrizontal
21:38:42 <krit> topic: should we remove glyph-orientation-{horizontal,vertical}?
21:39:37 <krit> heycam: In CSS3 it will be a text orientation property
21:39:48 <krit> heycam: it is not in gecko, but in opera and webkit
21:40:03 <krit> heycam: is it ok to remove it yet?
21:40:31 <krit> heycam: the current writing mode spec has some possibility to use the SVG orientation property
21:40:48 <krit> heycam: so should this spec still have that? is it necessary?
21:41:53 <krit> Tav: we might be the wrong people to ask
21:42:40 <krit> heycam: since CSS has it, do we need it in SVG? Do we want to continue with CSS?
21:43:20 <krit> krit: does CSS has angles for text orientation?
21:43:26 <krit> heycam: 	might be limited
21:43:37 <krit> heycam: but angle on SVG must be a multiple of 90deg
21:43:44 <heycam> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-writing-modes/#text-orientation0
21:44:33 <krit> krit: upside down text is not possible for CSS
21:44:35 <krit> heycam: yes
21:44:55 <Zakim> -cyril
21:45:18 <krit> heycam: not sure about vertical text implementations
21:45:24 <krit> Tav: inkscape has it
21:45:31 <krit> krit: webkit as well
21:45:40 <krit> ed: opera has some support for it
21:46:15 <krit> heycam: Iam aslo happy to keep it in the spec
21:47:07 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/text.html#GlyphOrientationHorizontalProperty
21:47:10 <krit> ??: Is it already deprecated?
21:47:14 <krit> heycam: I think so
21:47:20 <krit> heycam: maybe not
21:47:31 <nikos> s/??/nikos
21:48:05 <krit> heycam: if people are confortale enough we can remove it.
21:48:12 <krit> heycam: or first deprecating?
21:48:46 <krit> Tav: I don't know
21:48:58 <krit> nikos: we need feedback from japan first
21:49:34 <krit> ed: doe we have an action for someone?
21:49:37 <krit> heycam: yes
21:50:03 <krit> action: heycam will look into how removing GlyphOrientationHorizontalProperty would influence the web
21:50:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3299 - Will look into how removing GlyphOrientationHorizontalProperty would influence the web [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-06-07].
21:50:46 <krit> topic: Removing kerning property in favour for font-kerning
21:50:48 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012May/0101.html
21:50:51 <heycam> letter-spacing
21:51:15 <krit> heycam: only webkit implements kerning
21:51:32 <krit> heycam: it gives posibility to override kerning of font
21:51:42 <krit> heycam: and turn off automatical kerning
21:52:19 <krit> heycam: font-kerning can turn on and off automatic kenring\
21:52:48 <krit> heycam: you could get all functionality of kerning with turn off kerning with font-kerining and letter-spacing
21:53:01 <krit> heycam: do we want to remove duplicated behavior?
21:53:05 <krit> ed: I think so
21:54:25 <krit> krit: the quetion is if authors can still rely on specs, if we remove parts that are specified later.
21:55:18 <krit> heycam: if implementations haven't picked up things, we are in a lucky position that we still can change behavior
21:55:58 <krit> ed: on the other hand kerning is more doing letter-spacing, so it is not doing what it suposed to
21:56:40 <krit> heycam: I was able to find 5examples where kerning was used
21:57:57 <krit> krit: is it already deprecated?
21:58:09 <krit> heycam: it is not
21:58:27 <krit> krit: At least we can agree to deprecate it
21:58:45 <krit> heycam: as longer it remains on the spec, as more likely it will be used
21:58:57 <krit> heycam: my preference is to remove it
21:58:58 <Zakim> -Tav
21:59:37 <Zakim> +Tav
22:00:21 <krit> krit: I don't have a strong feeling
22:00:29 <krit> ed: any objections to remove it?
22:00:41 <krit> resolution: remove kerning from spec
22:01:02 <krit> resolution: remove kerning property from SVG spec
22:01:28 <krit> Tav: we should note that it got removed and how to get the same behavior?
22:01:32 <krit> heycam: good idea
22:02:00 <krit> action: heycam remove kerning and mention to use font-kerning and letter-spacing instead
22:02:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3300 - Remove kerning and mention to use font-kerning and letter-spacing instead [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-06-07].
22:02:28 <krit> topic: Should opacity property apply to markers
22:02:52 <krit> krit: does spec disallow it?
22:03:17 <krit> heycam: no
22:03:58 <krit> heycam: question is from implementations point of view
22:04:14 <krit> krit: would be more interessting to have marker and stroke as one piece
22:04:38 <ed> so this is talking about <marker opacity="0.5">...</marker>, right?
22:04:42 <krit> heycam: I know what you mean, could be interessting
22:04:46 <heycam> ed, yes
22:04:59 <krit> Tav: we could use the new keywords
22:05:27 <krit> krit: that wouldn't solve the problem that you see that they are not one piece
22:05:46 <krit> nikos: that is something the nec compositing spec can help with, let me find a link
22:06:32 <krit> krit: the spec does allow opacity on markers, so you are asking for disallowing it explicitly?
22:06:38 <nikos> if they're in a knock-out group it would solve the problem of the stroke and the marker looking like different objects
22:06:45 <nikos> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/rawfile/tip/compositing/index.html
22:06:54 <nikos> section 8.3 I think you were referring to Cam
22:06:55 <krit> heycam: not really. Just wanted to discuss it, was not aware that it is allowed at that point
22:07:58 <krit> nikos: was added by rik, and he propably want to work more on it
22:08:39 <krit> heycam: looks like we can get the behavior that dirk wants
22:08:50 <krit> krit: well, we were asked about it on webkit
22:09:14 <krit> (talks about marker and stroke being one unit)
22:09:17 <thorton> thorton has joined #svg
22:09:24 <krit> ed: sounds reasonable
22:10:53 <heycam> ISSUE: consider allowing stroke and markers to be rendered as one unit wrt opacity
22:10:53 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-2443 - Consider allowing stroke and markers to be rendered as one unit wrt opacity ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2443/edit .
22:11:00 <krit> <g opacity="0.5"><line marker="url()"></g>
22:11:05 <heycam> ISSUE-2443: Maybe the Compositing spec will allow this.
22:11:05 <trackbot> ISSUE-2443 Consider allowing stroke and markers to be rendered as one unit wrt opacity notes added
22:12:04 <krit> ed: next topic?
22:12:20 <krit> topic: Meaning of overflow: auto for SVG elements
22:12:39 <krit> krit: is it about overflow-x/-y
22:12:42 <krit> heycam: related
22:13:25 <krit> heycam: in CSS it means scrollbars if if affects a bigger region
22:14:04 <krit> heycam: in SVG means the same as visible
22:14:49 <krit> heycam: auto means in CSS never paint outside the bix, while in SVG always outside the box
22:15:56 <krit> heycam: proposal: change behavior to CSS described behavior
22:16:23 <krit> heycam: the current behavior of gecko
22:17:13 <krit> ed: might cause more clipping and perf lost on SVG
22:17:24 <krit> heycam: auto is not the default value
22:17:31 <krit> ed: true, hm not sure
22:18:13 <krit> krit: I would agree heycam because of consitence with cSS spec
22:19:02 <krit> ed: I am not sure if the CSS definition even applies to SVG
22:19:09 <krit> heycam: For me it is more about scrolling
22:19:25 <krit> heycam: in HTML content it will clip to the content
22:19:34 <krit> heycam: no scrollbars
22:19:39 <ed> s/applies to SVG/applies to SVG since there's no scrolling in svg/
22:19:51 <krit> heycam: so it is more like hidden invisible
22:20:21 <krit> heycam: overflow: scroll means the same a overflow: hidden in SVG
22:21:11 <krit> ed: I think heycam arguments are good
22:21:52 <ed> I'd agree that auto is more similar to scroll, which in svg is the same as hidden
22:23:15 <krit> heycam: anyone against changing defintion of overflow: auto
22:24:24 <krit> resolution: Accept the proposal of heycam to go the CSS way for overflow: auto
22:25:16 <krit> action: heycam will change behavior to CSS way for overflow: auto
22:25:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3301 - Will change behavior to CSS way for overflow: auto [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-06-07].
22:25:34 <krit> topic: overflow-x/overfllow-y
22:25:35 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012May/0094.html
22:26:02 <krit> heycam: should both apply the same way like for HTML
22:26:13 <krit> heycam: don't see any reason why we shouldn't do that
22:26:28 <krit> krit: think it can be a benefit for authors
22:27:04 <krit> ed: it is not more confusing than having CSS Transforms on box ....
22:27:56 <krit> ed: what is the usecase in SVG?
22:28:03 <krit> krit: different clipping behvairo
22:29:16 <krit> heycam: how is it done on webkit?
22:29:21 <krit> krit: not fully sure
22:29:36 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012May/att-0095/o.svg
22:29:47 <krit> heycam: anyway, implementations are different now
22:29:57 <thorton> thorton has joined #svg
22:31:52 <krit> krit: any conclusion?
22:32:16 <krit> ed: we should at least define what it should do
22:33:30 <krit> ed: would like to see more usecases, but it might make sense
22:34:08 <krit> action: heycam will work on usecases for overflow-x/-y
22:34:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3302 - Will work on usecases for overflow-x/-y [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-06-07].
22:34:27 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
22:34:32 <Zakim> -ed
22:34:41 <Zakim> -nikos
22:34:43 <Zakim> -Tav
22:34:50 <krit> RRSAgent: make minutes
22:34:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-svg-minutes.html krit
22:35:23 <Zakim> -heycam
22:37:59 <Zakim> -krit
22:38:00 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)5:00PM has ended
22:38:00 <Zakim> Attendees were ed, cyril, +1.415.832.aaaa, heycam, nikos, krit, Tav, Doug_Schepers
23:58:37 <heycam> action: cameron to look at non-default alternate style sheet for WD publication that shows coloured backgrounds
23:58:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3303 - Look at non-default alternate style sheet for WD publication that shows coloured backgrounds [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-06-07].