14:59:32 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y 14:59:32 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-html-a11y-irc 14:59:34 RRSAgent, make logs world 14:59:34 Zakim has joined #html-a11y 14:59:36 Zakim, this will be 2119 14:59:36 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 59 minutes ago 14:59:37 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 14:59:37 Date: 31 May 2012 15:00:18 JF has joined #html-a11y 15:00:59 Meeting: HTML-A11Y Task Force Teleconference 15:00:59 Chair: Janina_Sajka 15:00:59 agenda+ Issue-204 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012May/0165.html 15:01:02 agenda+ Issue-201 & 205 Status http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012May/0164.html 15:01:05 agenda+ Issue-199 Updated http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ARIA_Processing 15:01:08 agenda+ Issue-194Consensus Call http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012May/0158.html 15:01:11 agenda+ Issue-31C Status 15:01:14 agenda+ Subteam Reports: Bug Triage; Text; ARIA Mappings 15:01:16 agenda+ Other Business 15:01:19 agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open 15:01:21 agenda+ Identify Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List 15:01:24 agenda+ be done 15:02:00 zakim, who's on the phone? 15:02:07 WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has not yet started, janina 15:02:20 paulc has joined #html-a11y 15:02:23 zakim, this will be 2119 15:02:23 On IRC I see JF, Zakim, RRSAgent, janina, richardschwerdtfe, MikeSmith, davidb, MichaelC, trackbot, [tm] 15:02:59 ok, janina; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 62 minutes ago 15:03:49 +[Microsoft] 15:03:51 zakim, ??P50 is Janina_Sajka 15:04:21 +Janina_Sajka; got it 15:04:42 Zakim, call Mike 15:05:07 ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made 15:05:08 +Mike 15:05:22 zakim, ??P50 is Janina 15:05:24 I already had ??P50 as Janina_Sajka, JF 15:05:29 +Judy 15:05:45 scribe: Rich 15:06:15 meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Meeting 15:06:25 chair: janina 15:06:33 scribeNick: richardschwerdtfe 15:06:43 meeting: make log member 15:06:53 Topic: Issue 204 15:07:05 janina: has anyone been able to look at Steve's test page 15:07:14 janina: there are two competing change proposals 15:07:48 janina: The Ted/Jonas proposal regarding RFC 2119 15:08:09 q? 15:08:13 janina: I don't want to embarrass anyone 15:09:14 Judy: I don't think it is an embarrassment issue it is an information sharing issue. 15:09:45 Judy: I think it is a simple matter of information sharing or reminding. Yes, we had proposed that but that is not possible in this situation as we believed as well. 15:09:56 Judy: We had asked him to use the same consistency 15:09:57 Q+ 15:10:44 JF: In the current change proposal that emerged from the F2F that authors should not be using hidden elements that used RFC 2119 language. 15:11:26 JF: Although we have RFC 2119 in the change proposal it puts the onus on the author in terms of RFC SHOULD but there is MAY language pertaining to the browser 15:11:37 JF: Jonas is half right and we are half right 15:12:12 JF: We want to make sure this referencing hidden content is right. There is a strong feeling that they don't want to link to external content 15:12:27 s/RFC SHOULD but/RFC SHOULD NOT but 15:12:49 janina: the issue was making RFC 2119 comments regarding ARIA markup and how it should be used 15:13:01 janina: are we being inconsistent there John? 15:13:16 JF: I don't think so. I could live with MAY 15:13:52 JF: Insisting that authors should or must is problematic. 15:14:00 q? 15:14:05 ack jf 15:14:08 JF: Cynthia's response was that MUST was not acceptable 15:14:19 JF: Cynthia would discuss SHOULD 15:14:53 janina: they are looking on SHOULD or MUST language 15:15:03 janina: we are not supportive of that 15:15:13 JF: I am not optimistic of a single proposal 15:16:30 q+ 15:16:31 Judy: my understanding of the discussion is that since the effort to use that language in one place has been strongly objected by the chairs and that Sam has a follow up item on that 15:16:55 paulc: That follow up item is dependent on something Janina had to do 15:17:08 Judy: Janina did that last night 15:17:24 paulc: I must have missed it 15:17:45 Janina: to post a link 15:17:47 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012May/0165.html 15:18:12 meeting: makelog member 15:18:25 meeting: makelog public 15:18:45 paulc: neither Sam nor I are on the email 15:19:01 scribe: JF 15:19:24 JS: Asking Rich about Issue 205 15:19:59 PC: Question about whether Spec should give guidance on and if authors should use text-editing 15:20:22 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/205 15:20:29 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012May/0164.html 15:20:37 The people I’ve found so far who deal with SLAs are Lowell Jenks, David Mills, Rudy Gil and Jeff James 15:21:01 s/The people I’ve found so far who deal with SLAs are Lowell Jenks, David Mills, Rudy Gil and Jeff James/ 15:21:27 RS: recall that Frank Oliver suggested not to do this 15:21:38 CP: yes, he authored the zero-change proposal 15:22:01 RS: slightly confused, as Frank also worked on the initial proposal months ago 15:22:02 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-205-objection-poll/ 15:22:30 Straw Poll closes end of business Next Thursday 15:23:37 RS: what is confusing is that there is a CP that we will be voting on -introducing real world use-cases now 15:23:52 now we have a second CP 15:24:41 JS: we shouldn't dwell on history, the question is what to do today 15:24:46 -Judy 15:25:00 RS: I've been asked to resubmit the CP with real world use-cases 15:25:10 PC: believe you are confusing this with a different issue 15:25:40 Chairs reviewed this before going forward - we may be wrong but believe that there are 2 CPs 15:25:44 +Judy 15:26:12 if there is some confusion then this is unfortunate 15:26:33 RS: why do we have two issues that are essentially the same issue? 15:26:46 this does not make sense 15:26:51 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Feb/0142.html 15:27:31 PC: this is a recent note, taken from the status page. If you follow from there you will see what happened 15:28:44 RS: so Frank is suggesting that there are 2 points, text (??) and text editing 15:29:28 RS: so it has been broken out into 2 things. Franks justification is that this is too hard. 15:29:37 PC: this is what the survey is for 15:29:53 RS: Thought that author guidance was not to be inserted into the Spec 15:30:07 are we adding author guidance or not? 15:30:09 Q+ 15:30:34 PC: waiting to wee what WG members have to say on that topic (add or not add author guidance) 15:31:10 RS: we have a CP that addresses the text-editing problem - group will vote to include or not include 15:31:48 JS: we need to wrap this up for no 15:32:03 -Judy 15:32:04 +Judy 15:32:09 if I understand correctly is that we have the tools, but some are still asking that we say 'don't do it" 15:32:15 RS: based on what 15:32:23 q? 15:32:39 ack p 15:32:44 ack paulc 15:33:19 JB: sounds like Rich has found a process problem between 2 CPs - sounds like a bunch of tangled history 15:33:46 suggestion is to rather then dwell on that but focus on the point that Rich is drawing 15:33:51 +Cynthia_Shelly 15:34:03 if there is a linkage, which I think i am hearing, we should perhaps work on this off-line 15:34:32 RS: don't think we should be having a straw poll before the first issue is resolved 15:35:08 q? 15:35:14 ack jf 15:35:34 Judy has joined #html-a11y 15:35:51 JF: just want to point out that there is author guidance included in our CP for Issue 204 15:36:16 JS: there are some places where we want to remove author guidance, and others where we want to see it included 15:36:48 RS: Chairs should have resolved the technical issue first; makes no sense to include an API, then turn around and say don't use it 15:37:22 JB: suggest we take this off-line for now 15:37:34 we have a week to review this and work forward 15:38:14 JS: can't deal with this today - point is the heads up that it is on our plate 15:38:16 moving on 15:38:33 Topic: Issue 199 15:38:43 janina: we have a redrafted proposal 15:39:02 scribe: richardschwerdtfe 15:39:12 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ARIA_Processing 15:39:55 michael: I copied his style. Taking the ARIA value type. 15:41:45 michael: I said they are valid on all elements but that there are restrictions and implied host language elements where the roles apply 15:42:17 michael: we don't want to copy and duplicate errors. It does require us to follow a couple of links to see the full implementation model. 15:42:25 q+ 15:42:47 janina: I believe we have all issues from the face to face addressed in this draft. 15:42:59 Judy: What if we don't get a response to the draft? 15:43:33 Judy: We have a number of things waiting on Ted that have received no response 15:44:10 (Ted did make some commitments at the F2F on these topics) 15:44:12 -[Microsoft] 15:44:28 I am having auditory problems. And just dropped off phone call. 15:44:48 +[Microsoft] 15:45:10 zakim, [Microsoft] is Paul Cotton 15:45:10 I don't understand '[Microsoft] is Paul Cotton', JF 15:45:26 zakim, Microsoft is Paul_Cotton 15:45:26 +Paul_Cotton; got it 15:45:30 Michael: we should have time to review it. 15:46:34 Michael: I am hoping he will have little objections 15:46:39 agenda? 15:46:42 Topic: 194 15:46:49 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012May/0158.html 15:46:51 janina: this is video transcript 15:46:58 rrsagent, make minutes world 15:46:58 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes world', Judy. Try /msg RRSAgent help 15:47:08 rssagent, make log world 15:47:11 Q+ 15:47:23 rrsagent, make log world 15:47:29 rrsagent, make minutes 15:47:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-html-a11y-minutes.html Judy 15:47:49 janina: I do see that Ted has offered a change proposal based on his IDREF 15:47:57 q? 15:47:58 ack ju 15:48:01 ack ju 15:48:05 ack jf 15:48:34 JF: I have not fully read Ted's proposal. What I can see here is that from an accessibility perspective Ted's proposal would satisfy 15:48:45 JF: The transcript attribute would be acceptable 15:49:38 q? 15:50:03 JF: It boils down to Ted and Silivia's proposal would be whether Silvia's proposal is to create a transcript element "landmark" is acceptable 15:50:41 http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-194 15:50:43 Paul: I don't think we have anything on record that actually says what you might be about to infer 15:51:27 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/Issue194 15:51:32 Paul: if you look there you will notice that the confusing situation with the new attribute proposal. 15:51:47 Paul: That is the new attribute 15:52:17 Paul: I am trying to determine what this group's position on the previous proposal 15:52:35 New proposal for element: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ISSUE-194/TranscriptElement 15:52:39 JF: there is a change proposal that Silvia worked on with Charles, myself, and janina 15:52:51 JF: if you go to the bottom there are 5 other change proposals in play 15:53:38 JF: I will be withdrawing @transcript. The earlier proposal created by Silva and Ted should be removed but I am not sure 15:53:58 Paul: I may have to peel these off one at a time 15:54:17 Paul: I need to know if Silvia is withdrawing her proposal for issue 194. 15:54:27 Paul: I am asking about the no change and am targeting at Ted. 15:55:03 Paul: Ted - now that you have a new proposal are you removing the no change proposal. Which are the survivors? 15:55:19 rrsagent, make minutes 15:55:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-html-a11y-minutes.html Judy 15:55:27 janina: taking John's point and mine 15:56:01 janina: our accessibility requirements are addressed either way but there may be one which we prefer. Can we move toward a resolution on that? 15:56:24 q? 15:56:27 JF: on first blush I like the one we worked on earlier with the element 15:56:48 JF: Silvlia still wants to address Ben's concerns 15:57:24 JF: if we can address his concerns we will have a stronger proposal 15:57:33 Rich: did the transcript track proposal die? 15:57:36 JF: yes 15:57:43 janina: it had to do with rendering issues 15:57:51 q? 15:57:51 JF: we should wait on SIlvia 15:58:09 JF: we are not in a rush to do anything 15:58:33 zakim, who's on the phone? 15:58:33 On the phone I see JF, Rich, Janina_Sajka, Cooper, Mike, Judy, Cynthia_Shelly, Paul_Cotton 15:58:51 Paul: John You could work on your argument for the transcript element now that you have seen Ted's proposal 15:59:56 JF: both proposals use IDREF and Ted said you could use a div for the transcript but Silvia recommends a transcript element 16:00:08 JF: I will try to connect with Silvia later on today 16:00:13 Leaving now for the WG meeting., I am chairing. 16:00:19 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:00:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-html-a11y-minutes.html richardschwerdtfe 16:00:32 -Paul_Cotton 16:00:43 zakim, close item 1 16:00:43 agendum 1, Issue-204 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012May/0165.html, closed 16:00:45 I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 16:00:45 2. Issue-201 & 205 Status http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012May/0164.html [from janina] 16:00:51 janina: Hopefully we will have a stable and improved version of 194 by next week 16:01:02 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:01:02 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-html-a11y-minutes.html richardschwerdtfe 16:01:13 zakim, close item 2 16:01:13 agendum 2, Issue-201 & 205 Status http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012May/0164.html, closed 16:01:15 I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 16:01:15 3. Issue-199 Updated http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ARIA_Processing [from janina] 16:01:28 zakim, close item 3 16:01:28 agendum 3, Issue-199 Updated http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ARIA_Processing, closed 16:01:31 janina: we can defer other activity 16:01:31 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 16:01:31 4. Issue-194Consensus Call http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012May/0158.html [from janina] 16:01:36 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:01:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-html-a11y-minutes.html richardschwerdtfe 16:02:06 -Mike 16:02:25 -JF 16:02:29 -Cooper 16:02:39 agenda? 16:02:54 zakim, takeup next 16:03:01 I don't understand 'takeup next', richardschwerdtfe 16:03:17 -Judy 16:03:24 zakim, close item 4 16:03:27 agendum 4, Issue-194Consensus Call http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012May/0158.html, closed 16:03:29 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 16:03:32 5. Issue-31C Status [from janina] 16:03:42 zakim, next item 16:03:42 agendum 5. "Issue-31C Status" taken up [from janina] 16:03:50 zakim, close this item 16:03:50 agendum 5 closed 16:03:51 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 16:03:51 6. Subteam Reports: Bug Triage; Text; ARIA Mappings [from janina] 16:03:51 -Cynthia_Shelly 16:03:56 zakim, next item 16:03:56 agendum 6. "Subteam Reports: Bug Triage; Text; ARIA Mappings" taken up [from janina] 16:04:01 zakim, close this item 16:04:01 agendum 6 closed 16:04:02 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 16:04:02 7. Other Business [from janina] 16:04:03 zakim, next item 16:04:04 agendum 7. "Other Business" taken up [from janina] 16:04:06 zakim, next item 16:04:06 agendum 7 was just opened, janina 16:04:14 zakim, close this item 16:04:14 agendum 7 closed 16:04:15 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 16:04:15 8. Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open [from janina] 16:04:20 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:04:20 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-html-a11y-minutes.html richardschwerdtfe 16:04:34 -Rich 16:04:36 -Janina_Sajka 16:04:38 WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has ended 16:04:38 Attendees were JF, Rich, Cooper, Janina_Sajka, Mike, Judy, Cynthia_Shelly, Paul_Cotton 16:04:44 janina has left #html-a11y 16:42:30 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y