13:59:32 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
13:59:32 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/05/29-wcag2ict-irc
13:59:34 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:59:36 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2428
13:59:36 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
13:59:37 <trackbot> Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
13:59:37 <trackbot> Date: 29 May 2012
13:59:48 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wcag2ict-tf/2012May/0012.html
13:59:52 <MichaelC> chair: Andi_Snow-Weaver
13:59:56 <MichaelC> zakim, this is 2428
13:59:56 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM
14:00:32 <Zakim> +Cooper
14:00:40 <Andi> agenda+ Identify Scribe, discussion on what should be in the minutes
14:00:48 <MichaelC> zakim, drop cooper
14:00:48 <Zakim> Cooper is being disconnected
14:00:49 <Zakim> -Cooper
14:01:06 <Andi> agenda+ Participation update -- Judy
14:01:10 <MaryJo> MaryJo has joined #wcag2ict
14:01:15 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
14:01:17 <Andi> agenda+ Finish Discussion on first survey results, starting with 1.4.2.
14:01:17 <Andi> Audio Control <https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/MAY252012/results#xq11>
14:01:30 <Zakim> +Cooper
14:01:32 <Andi> agenda+ Discussion of results of "Comments on SC 1.2.x and 3.3.4" Survey <
14:01:32 <Andi> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/MAY292012/>
14:01:33 <Zakim> +??P13
14:01:38 <MichaelC> zakim, Microsoft is Alex_Li
14:01:44 <Zakim> +Alex_Li; got it
14:01:45 <Andi> agenda+ Confirm next meeting time; action items;
14:01:55 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P13 is Mike_Pluke
14:01:56 <Zakim> +Mike_Pluke; got it
14:02:11 <Zakim> +Mary_Jo_Mueller
14:02:13 <Alex> Alex has joined #wcag2ict
14:02:20 <janina> janina has joined #wcag2ict
14:02:46 <Zakim> +Judy
14:02:55 <Zakim> +??P25
14:03:10 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P25 is Janina_Sajka
14:03:20 <Zakim> +Janina_Sajka; got it
14:04:11 <Andi> zakim, next item
14:04:15 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
14:04:18 <MichaelC> zakim, close item 3
14:04:23 <Zakim> + +1.608.514.aaaa
14:04:29 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Identify Scribe, discussion on what should be in the minutes" taken up [from Andi]
14:04:34 <Zakim> agendum 3, Confirm next meeting time; action items; request next scribe;, closed
14:04:36 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:04:39 <Zakim> 4. Identify Scribe, discussion on what should be in the minutes [from Andi]
14:04:42 <MichaelC> zakim, aaaa is Gregg_Vanderheiden
14:04:46 <Zakim> +Gregg_Vanderheiden; got it
14:05:34 <Andi> zakim, who is on the phone
14:05:34 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', Andi
14:05:56 <Zakim> + +1.202.272.aabb
14:06:03 <Andi> zakim, who's on the phone?
14:06:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see Andi_Snow_Weaver, Al_Hoffman, Kiran_Kaja, Cooper, Alex_Li, Mike_Pluke, Mary_Jo_Mueller, Judy, Janina_Sajka, Gregg_Vanderheiden, +1.202.272.aabb
14:06:17 <MichaelC> zakim, aabb is Bruce_Bailey
14:06:17 <Zakim> +Bruce_Bailey; got it
14:07:08 <Andi> zakim, next item
14:07:08 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Participation update -- Judy" taken up [from Andi]
14:07:18 <bailey> bailey has joined #wcag2ict
14:07:45 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:07:49 <Judy> q+
14:08:15 <Andi> scribe: Andi
14:09:33 <Zakim> + +1.703.622.aacc
14:10:52 <Pierce> Pierce has joined #WCAG2ICT
14:10:56 <Andi> ack gregg
14:11:20 <MichaelC> zakim, aacc is Pierce_Crowell
14:11:21 <Zakim> +Pierce_Crowell; got it
14:12:28 <bailey> q+
14:12:35 <Andi> ack judy
14:13:36 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:13:51 <Judy> q+
14:13:56 <Andi> ack bailey
14:14:05 <Andi> ack gregg
14:14:17 <Andi> q+ greggvanderheiden
14:14:50 <Andi> ack judy
14:15:19 <Judy> q+
14:15:36 <Andi> ack gregg
14:16:47 <Andi> concerns with detailed minutes - what people say is not captured or captured incorrectly, WCAG experience is that this can lead to public criticisms of the individual
14:18:20 <MichaelC> q+
14:18:26 <Andi> ack judy
14:20:11 <Judy> q+
14:20:17 <Andi> ack Michael
14:20:19 <greggvanderheiden> q+\
14:20:25 <greggvanderheiden> +
14:20:33 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:20:34 <Andi> q+ greggvanderheiden
14:20:51 <Andi> ack judy
14:21:11 <Andi> ack \
14:21:14 <Andi> ack gregg
14:21:51 <Andi> people can speak "off the record" and their comments will not be minuted
14:21:52 <MichaelC> q+
14:22:11 <Andi> speakers should watch minutes in IRC and correct things attributed to them if they are not correct
14:22:30 <Andi> need guidelines for what should be minuted
14:23:10 <Andi> some level of detail is necessary for "institutional memory"
14:24:10 <MichaelC> -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/Teleconference_cheat_sheet PFWG's Teleconference Cheat Sheet
14:24:14 <Andi> ack MichaelC
14:24:28 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald
14:25:11 <Judy> zakim, who's on the phone?
14:25:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see Andi_Snow_Weaver, Al_Hoffman, Kiran_Kaja, Cooper, Alex_Li, Mike_Pluke, Mary_Jo_Mueller, Judy, Janina_Sajka, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Bruce_Bailey, Pierce_Crowell,
14:25:14 <bailey> scribe:bailey
14:25:14 <Zakim> ... David_MacDonald
14:25:29 <bailey> scribe: bailey
14:25:52 <bailey> topic:update on participation
14:26:20 <bailey> No new specifics.  There is a public page now.
14:26:21 <MichaelC> -> http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=55145&public=1 Current participants in the TF
14:27:29 <bailey> Some would-be participants still having some problems with access to tools.
14:28:43 <bailey> w3c wai staff processing quickly, just one application in there queue
14:28:56 <bailey> s/ there their /
14:29:20 <bailey> zakim:next item
14:29:34 <bailey> zakim, next item
14:29:34 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Finish Discussion on first survey results, starting with 1.4.2." taken up [from Andi]
14:29:46 <Andi> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/MAY252012/results#xq11
14:30:11 <bailey> 1.4.2 is Audio Control
14:30:41 <bailey> Alex asked about exception from TEITAC report.
14:31:34 <Judy> q+
14:31:35 <bailey> Web is limited medium, does not have emergency broadcast for example
14:31:47 <Andi> ack judy
14:32:31 <bailey> U.S. has VPAC and other works in progress.
14:32:51 <bailey> Judy suggest line is blurring.
14:33:54 <bailey> Gregg suggests that organizations adopting will have exceptions for military use cases.
14:34:08 <bailey> Emergencies should not be such an exception.
14:34:44 <David> q+
14:35:01 <mapluke> q+
14:35:11 <Alex> q+
14:35:16 <bailey> Andi raises question if we should keep running list for regulators.
14:36:21 <janina> q+ to ask about what the problem actually is with stopping audio
14:36:32 <bailey> Issue may be out of scope for TF, but we want to capture sentiment.
14:36:42 <Andi> ack david
14:37:36 <Judy> q+ 
14:37:44 <Andi> ack mapluke
14:37:49 <bailey> David observes that as mater of practicality, WCAG will be neglect in times of crisis anyway.
14:38:11 <Andi> s/neglect/neglected/
14:38:17 <Judy> q+ to note that in any case, the TF is just doing an informative Note, not guidelines.
14:38:17 <Andi> ack alex
14:38:41 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:40:03 <Andi> ack janina
14:40:03 <Zakim> janina, you wanted to ask about what the problem actually is with stopping audio
14:40:30 <bailey> Janina asks what the problem actually is with stopping audio.
14:41:15 <Andi> ack judy
14:41:15 <Zakim> Judy, you wanted to note that in any case, the TF is just doing an informative Note, not guidelines.
14:41:17 <bailey> In emergency, need to control multiple live audio streams could be important.
14:41:18 <Alex> q+
14:41:30 <bailey> Judy notes that the TF is just doing an informative Note, not guidelines.
14:41:33 <Judy> ack Judy
14:42:16 <Andi> ack greggvanderheiden
14:42:53 <bailey> Gregg +1 Janina
14:43:45 <Andi> ack alex
14:44:05 <bailey> Discuss if out-of scope comments will show up with informative note?
14:45:07 <bailey> Alex points out that many emergency audio signals cannot be blocked in practice.
14:45:46 <bailey> Alex want to have observations available to regulators to harvest.
14:46:34 <bailey> Gregg thinks our document is for end-users.
14:48:29 <bailey> Janina and Alex respectfully disagree.
14:48:53 <bailey> Question:  Do we caption out of scope advice?
14:49:30 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:50:15 <mapluke> q+
14:50:29 <bailey> Alex ask if the TF has consensus, do we still say silent on out of scope advice?
14:50:40 <Andi> q+ Al_Hoffman
14:50:46 <bailey> s/ask/asks/
14:51:57 <Andi> ack gregg
14:52:17 <bailey> Gregg suggests that TV analogies may distract us.
14:53:09 <bailey> Scope is "does it apply".
14:53:45 <bailey> Should it apply and exceptions are out of scope.
14:55:19 <bailey> If we discuss problems with applying WCAG in certain situations, we should note them.
14:55:30 <Andi> ack mapluke
14:55:38 <greggvanderheiden> s/does it apply"./ what would it mean to apply it to ict.  "does it apply" or adding any exceptions would be out of scope/
14:56:00 <bailey> Mike concurs with Alex that this discussion would helpful to capture.
14:56:47 <bailey> Allen suggests does it apply as one yes/no question.
14:57:07 <bailey> Allen suggests keeping examples where we can.
14:57:10 <Judy> q+
14:57:16 <Andi> ack al
14:57:43 <bailey> Regulators may be able to get conversation out of the minutes.
14:57:47 <Judy> http://www.w3.org/2012/04/WCAG2ICT-WorkStatement.html#objectives
14:58:04 <bailey> Judy reminds us that techniques per se are out of scope.
14:58:11 <greggvanderheiden> s/If we discuss problems with applying WCAG in certain situations, we should note them./ If we discuss problems with applying WCAG in certain situations, we should note them simply as what applying the SC to ICT would include/
14:59:15 <bailey> Additional techniques can be farmed out to GLWG.
14:59:39 <bailey> Andi reminds us that we are producing an informative document.
14:59:49 <bailey> Exceptions would have to be in a standards.
15:00:14 <Judy> ack ju
15:00:47 <bailey> Andi proposes post-pone till we address terms in non-web context.
15:00:53 <bailey> Leave open.
15:01:25 <David> zakim, who's noisy?
15:01:29 <bailey> Next item 1.4.3 contrast minimum.
15:01:38 <Zakim> David, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Andi_Snow_Weaver (100%), Judy (4%), Bruce_Bailey (8%)
15:02:10 <bailey> Andi points out that some comments have been incorporated into phrasing.
15:02:19 <greggvanderheiden> q+
15:03:04 <bailey> Andi ask since terms are not in normative wording, can we move forward?
15:03:18 <greggvanderheiden> q-
15:04:14 <bailey> No objection, moving forward with next concern raised.
15:04:29 <bailey> Gregg asks us to focus on success criteria.
15:05:36 <bailey> Goal is have as few SC to revisit at end (when we revisit adopting terms to other ICT).
15:05:57 <bailey> s/other ICT/non-web ICT/
15:06:11 <bailey> Issue with definition of large scale text.
15:06:29 <bailey> Loic is not present, so we may have to revisit.
15:07:04 <greggvanderheiden> Bulletin:  Mike just became a member of the task force per the sysbot+ipp
15:07:15 <greggvanderheiden> q+
15:07:40 <bailey> Survey response raises issue with WCAG definition.  Andi notes this is out of scope.
15:08:16 <David> q+ to say WCAG understanding DOC gives 12pt as normal size text... and there for everything is relative to that... 
15:08:47 <bailey> Gregg does not think Loic suggested definition solves the problem Loic is raising.
15:09:13 <Alex> q+
15:09:55 <Andi> ack gregg
15:09:57 <David> q- Gregg basically said what I'd say
15:10:11 <bailey> Gregg points our that WCAG is for the content author.  Content authors will not have control over pixel density or actual rendered size.
15:10:14 <Andi> q+
15:10:20 <David> q- to say Gregg said it...
15:11:14 <mapluke> q+
15:11:41 <bailey> WCAG understanding document describes assumptions regarding nominal size text
15:12:31 <bailey> Alex points out there are other provisions that help with this, e.g. scaling 200%.
15:12:39 <Andi> ack alex
15:13:10 <bailey> Looking at one SC in isolation might look problematic, but as related with other, SC work together, and are not problematic.
15:13:14 <Andi> ack andi
15:13:32 <bailey> Andi raises discussion regarding closed products.
15:13:44 <bailey> Closed can be hardware or software.
15:15:04 <bailey> When the screen size and resolution are known (e.g. kiosks) the information in the definition of large print for 1024x768 15" screen can be used to determine equivalent size.
15:15:08 <Andi> q+
15:15:51 <Alex> q+
15:16:15 <bailey> Gregg also observes that "closed" breaks " grammatically determined" so we may have to revisit separately.
15:16:33 <bailey> s/grammatically/programatically/
15:17:00 <bailey> Regulators treat closed products separately.
15:17:29 <bailey> Gregg suggest revisiting close products later.  Andi concurs.
15:17:49 <bailey> Wiki needs to note area for closed functionality. 
15:17:57 <Andi> ack mapluke
15:18:39 <bailey> Andi does not see particulars for large scale text in WCAG.
15:19:27 <bailey> Mike agree that closed products will impact the applicability of a number of SC.
15:19:35 <bailey> s/agree/agrees/
15:19:54 <Andi> ack andi
15:20:03 <bailey> Gregg agrees that definition of large print is NOT in WCAG glossary.
15:21:07 <bailey> Gregg still thinks this in not a problem for hard.
15:21:17 <bailey> s/hard/hardware/
15:21:55 <bailey> Will table discussion for closed products.
15:22:14 <Judy> s/table/set aside/
15:22:42 <bailey> Will have to come back to this issue.
15:23:10 <bailey> Alex points out that closed functionality is different than closed product.
15:24:34 <bailey> Gregg reminds us that definition of "closed" is "closed to assistive technology".
15:25:31 <bailey> This may not be directly applicable to "large print" since products with "closed functionality" probably still need to provide a large print feature.
15:26:16 <bailey> Alex argues that "closed functionality" may be less relevant than we think.
15:27:06 <bailey> If display is know, assumptions regarding contrast and font size can be made.
15:27:47 <David> q+
15:27:53 <Alex> q-
15:27:55 <bailey> Andi asks that we defer close functionality issues.
15:28:02 <Andi> ack alex
15:28:46 <bailey> David points out that WCAG font sizes are against "default" and non-web products will have their own defaults.
15:29:12 <Andi> ack david
15:29:35 <bailey> Have to assume that default size is a reasonable size.  Other SC also support need for larger fonts.
15:30:10 <bailey> Gregg and Andi agree that we cannot redefine large print.
15:32:16 <bailey> RESOLUTION: accept as proposed with the caveat that we will revisit this once we have closed on the definition of terms that are used in the INTENT text.
15:32:53 <bailey> action to Andi to summarize for Loic.
15:32:53 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - to
15:33:28 <Zakim> -Al_Hoffman
15:33:50 <Zakim> -Gregg_Vanderheiden
15:34:11 <Zakim> -Andi_Snow_Weaver
15:34:13 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
15:34:15 <Zakim> -Janina_Sajka
15:34:15 <Zakim> -Mary_Jo_Mueller
15:34:16 <Zakim> -Cooper
15:34:17 <Zakim> -Mike_Pluke
15:34:18 <janina> janina has left #wcag2ict
15:34:18 <Zakim> -Judy
15:34:18 <Zakim> -Kiran_Kaja
15:34:20 <bailey> Judy thanks Gregg for the words of encouragement, and agrees that we are sorting out multiple overall issues in these earlier meetings.
15:34:20 <Zakim> -Pierce_Crowell
15:34:21 <Zakim> -Alex_Li
15:34:38 <Andi> scribe: Andi
15:34:47 <bailey> thanks andi!
15:35:07 <Zakim> -Bruce_Bailey
15:35:09 <Zakim> WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has ended
15:35:09 <Zakim> Attendees were Andi_Snow_Weaver, Al_Hoffman, Kiran_Kaja, Cooper, Alex_Li, Mike_Pluke, Mary_Jo_Mueller, Judy, Janina_Sajka, +1.608.514.aaaa, Gregg_Vanderheiden, +1.202.272.aabb,
15:35:09 <Zakim> ... Bruce_Bailey, +1.703.622.aacc, Pierce_Crowell, David_MacDonald
15:35:25 <Andi> action: Andi to summarize discussion on large scale text with Loïc
15:35:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2 - Summarize discussion on large scale text with Loïc [on Andi Snow-Weaver - due 2012-06-05].
15:36:05 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
15:36:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/29-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
15:38:52 <bailey> exit
15:38:54 <bailey> bye
15:39:02 <bailey> bailey has left #wcag2ict
15:43:08 <Andi> s/topic:update on participation//
15:43:18 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
15:43:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/29-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
15:44:06 <Andi> s/there their//
16:28:22 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
17:57:51 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
18:00:57 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has left #wcag2ict
18:56:29 <Andi> Andi has joined #wcag2ict
20:35:56 <shadi> shadi has joined #wcag2ict
23:47:46 <Andi> Andi has joined #wcag2ict
23:50:53 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
23:50:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/29-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
23:51:37 <Andi> s/VPAC/VPAAC/
23:51:45 <Andi> s/VPAC/VPAAC/
23:51:48 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
23:51:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/29-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
23:53:35 <Andi> s/Janina and Alex respectfully disagree/Janina and Alex respectfully disagree about the exception for emergency information exception in the TEITAC recommendation/
23:53:52 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
23:53:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/29-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
23:57:26 <Andi> s/Andi points out that some comments have been incorporated into phrasing./Andi points out that some comments are no longer relevant because the section on ICT in general has been removed from the draft./
23:57:31 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
23:57:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/29-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
23:58:18 <Andi> s/Loic/Loïc/
23:58:22 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
23:58:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/29-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi