14:57:20 RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg 14:57:20 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/05/16-rdf-wg-irc 14:57:22 RRSAgent, make logs world 14:57:22 Zakim has joined #rdf-wg 14:57:24 Zakim, this will be 73394 14:57:24 ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes 14:57:25 Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference 14:57:25 Date: 16 May 2012 14:57:54 SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started 14:58:01 +pfps 14:58:57 zakim, dial ivan-voip 14:58:57 ok, ivan; the call is being made 14:59:00 +Ivan 14:59:03 +??P1 14:59:19 pchampin has joined #rdf-wg 14:59:23 scribenick: pfps 14:59:28 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:59:28 On the phone I see pfps, Ivan, ??P1 14:59:32 scribe: Peter 14:59:33 + +1.707.861.aaaa 14:59:35 zakim, ??P1 is me 14:59:35 +pchampin; got it 14:59:43 Zakim, aaaa is me 14:59:43 +gavinc; got it 14:59:47 Zakim, please let me in. 14:59:47 I don't understand 'please let me in', davidwood 15:00:27 +davidwood 15:00:39 PatH has joined #rdf-wg 15:00:47 + +1.603.897.aabb 15:00:58 Arnaud has joined #rdf-wg 15:01:09 AndyS has joined #rdf-wg 15:01:13 + +31.20.598.aacc 15:01:23 sandro has changed the topic to: RDF Agenda http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.05.16 15:01:26 zakim, +31 is me 15:01:26 +Guus; got it 15:01:28 Souri has joined #rdf-wg 15:01:36 Zakim, who is talking? 15:01:37 +Sandro 15:01:46 gavinc, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pfps (52%), pchampin (35%) 15:01:53 + +1.408.996.aadd 15:02:04 + +1.617.324.aaee 15:02:15 Zakim, aaee is me 15:02:15 +ericP; got it 15:02:35 zakim, aadd is Arnaud 15:02:35 +Arnaud; got it 15:02:40 zakim, who is here? 15:02:40 On the phone I see pfps, Ivan, pchampin, gavinc, davidwood, +1.603.897.aabb, Guus, Sandro, Arnaud, ericP 15:02:44 On IRC I see Souri, AndyS, Arnaud, PatH, pchampin, Zakim, RRSAgent, pfps, Guus, gavinc, mischat, MacTed, danbri, LeeF, NickH, ivan, SteveH, manu1, davidwood, yvesr, manu, trackbot, 15:02:47 ... sandro, ericP 15:02:49 +??P12 15:02:54 zakim, ??P12 is me 15:02:54 +AndyS; got it 15:03:02 zakim, aabb is me 15:03:02 +Souri; got it 15:03:16 zakim, who is here? 15:03:16 On the phone I see pfps, Ivan, pchampin, gavinc, davidwood, Souri, Guus, Sandro, Arnaud, ericP, AndyS 15:03:18 On IRC I see Souri, AndyS, Arnaud, PatH, pchampin, Zakim, RRSAgent, pfps, Guus, gavinc, mischat, MacTed, danbri, LeeF, NickH, ivan, SteveH, manu1, davidwood, yvesr, manu, trackbot, 15:03:18 ... sandro, ericP 15:03:22 Admin 15:03:27 + +1.617.553.aaff 15:03:31 zakim, aaff is me 15:03:31 +LeeF; got it 15:03:46 hi, guus! 15:03:47 +OpenLink_Software 15:03:57 Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me 15:03:58 +MacTed; got it 15:03:59 Zakim, mute me 15:03:59 MacTed should now be muted 15:04:01 PROPOSED: accept the minutes of the 9 May telecon 15:04:06 +1 15:04:10 +1 15:04:13 +1 15:04:15 PatH will be just on IRC until we get past the turtles. 15:04:21 RESOLVED: accept the minutes of the 9 May telecon: 15:04:22 _1 by the way 15:04:31 +1 whoops 15:04:50 Action Items 15:04:50 Sorry, bad ACTION syntax 15:05:02 tbaker has joined #rdf-wg 15:05:09 s/ivan/Pat/ 15:05:10 guus: action 169 done 15:05:10 +??P20 15:05:13 zakim, ??P20 is danbri 15:05:13 +danbri; got it 15:05:27 ivan has left #rdf-wg 15:05:34 ACTION-167? 15:05:36 +??P21 15:05:40 +Tom_Baker (was ??P21) 15:05:43 ivan has joined #rdf-wg 15:05:43 ivan has left #rdf-wg 15:05:52 AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg 15:06:23 ivan has joined #rdf-wg 15:06:33 + +1.443.212.aagg 15:06:40 zakim, aagg is me 15:06:40 +AlexHall; got it 15:06:43 Overcome by events 15:06:49 guus: status of action 167? 15:06:58 gavin: done! 15:07:13 zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg 15:07:20 zakim, code? 15:07:20 the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2 15:07:52 regrets for next week from me, I'll be teaching at eswc summer school 15:07:53 david: we need a new scribe list 15:08:14 + +1.650.265.aahh 15:08:26 guus: need to update on who is attending the call 15:08:40 ACTION david: update scribe list 15:08:40 Created ACTION-171 - Update scribe list [on David Wood - due 2012-05-23]. 15:08:43 zakim, +1.650.265.aahh is me 15:08:43 +zwu2; got it 15:09:09 guus: next meeting is next week 15:09:27 Turtle LC decision 15:09:38 guus: there was some discussion on grammar rules 15:10:22 [

. ] 15:10:36 gavin: issue 19 - allow top-level blank nodes 15:10:37 [

. ]

. 15:11:05 gavin: agreement from a year ago, but the change was apparently lost, now regained 15:11:20 guus: no dissent seen, any discussion now? 15:11:53 What is their scope? Should make this very clear. 15:12:18 Im guessing the document. 15:12:22 gavin: this was resolved quite some time ago, this discussion is just a reminder 15:12:27 OK. 15:12:47 pfps: the scope is just like any other blank node, the graph 15:13:05 @prefix 15:13:07 @prefix . 15:13:09 gavin: null prefix issue 15:13:21 knows 15:13:27 exampleknows 15:13:59 gavin: adding bare words to Turtle is a big change 15:14:00 I'm against barewords in turtle. cygri said he was too 15:14:05 if i say "prefix foo: ." -- is the prefix "foo" or "foo:"? (i.e. is the colon part of the prefix?) 15:14:16 me too (against that is) 15:14:22 i'd say that the key is the empty string instead of NULL 15:14:43 @vocab . 15:14:46 gavin: if this happens, then it should be done in some other way, for example, with a different keyword 15:14:46 gavinc: Maybe use @vocab for this kind of thing 15:15:02 gavin: one reason to do this is to be more like schema.org 15:15:24 guus: most people agree with Gavin 15:15:53 sandro: I was disagreeing, but no longer, and @vocab would be the way to go, if we do go 15:16:04 (or at least seems reasonable.) 15:16:19 gavin: no problem with @vocab as an extension 15:16:32 gavin: nothing in document (yet) 15:16:47 david: how does schema.org fit in? 15:17:08 q+ re microdata/rdfa 15:17:12 gavin: schema.org (actually microformats) treat bare words as attaching to some vocabulary 15:17:25 gavin: discussion with schema.org might result in some change 15:17:33 s/microformats/microdata/ 15:17:34 q+ to talk about "extensions to turtle"/"punting down the road" 15:17:43 dan: schema.org is the only use of microdata 15:17:55 dan: rdfa 1.1 light is very close to schema.org 15:18:21 dan: schema.org may accept rdfa 1.1 light, which may reduce use of microdata 15:18:36 ack danbri 15:18:36 danbri, you wanted to discuss microdata/rdfa 15:18:38 yup, just don't worry too heavily about microdata 15:18:41 guus: it looks as if gavin's decision is fine 15:18:48 (it is what it is; i don't expect it to change a great deal) 15:19:21 sandro: Turtle isn't going to have extensions, so talk about that won't do 15:19:45 gavin: But there is not yet an error conformance for Turtle 15:19:54 (me said that much more softly than it was transcribed!) 15:20:48 gavin: little support for BASE and PREFIX with out @ 15:21:13 gavin: to align with SPARQL we would have to allow any-case 15:21:25 And 'a' 15:21:33 gavin: right now @base has to be all lower case 15:21:47 true and false are also lower case 15:21:49 gavin: In turtle, @prefix is lowercase 15:21:57 david: WG decided to align Turtle and SPARQL where possible 15:22:43 Sandro: but that was about aligning graph parts, so this is only in the spirit of the decision 15:22:52 -zwu2 15:23:27 guus: I would like this to be a feature at risk, but there has to be a feature to remove if so 15:23:36 +zwu2 15:23:47 gavin: do we need a new LC for conformance anyway? 15:24:00 ivan: then we can't do last call 15:24:07 http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-conformance 15:24:14 pfps, say 'naked words' 15:24:27 sandro: procedurally possible, but not a good idea 15:24:42 gavin: no test suite 15:24:56 sandro: don't need a test suite 15:25:01 sandro: it's not appropriate to go to LC planning on a second LC2 15:25:56 gavin: section 9 includes the test suite by reference, so I thought that that was part of the document 15:26:29 sandro: normally conformance is the design, not the test suit 15:26:41 sandro: passing the test suite does not pass conformance 15:27:10 -> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#conformance SPARQL Conformance 15:27:11 well, it may 15:27:29 zakim, who is noisy? 15:27:40 ivan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pfps (50%), Sandro (9%), ericP (78%) 15:28:00 eric: SPARQL has a very short conformance section 15:28:08 sandro: which version? 15:28:20 eric: see above 15:28:39 guus: so we should put something like that in the document 15:28:56 gavin: I can rewrite the conformance section 15:29:56 sandro: turtle test suite is in the wrong place - it needs to be a different directory 15:30:08 +1 to sandro 15:30:31 gavin: the test suite is an accompanying document 15:31:06 sandro: RDF 2004 has a TR test suite, but that isn't current practice 15:31:44 gavin: what about calling it a set of examples? 15:32:09 pfps, that's ericP talking btw ;) 15:32:16 sandro: examples linking to files is good, and this can be in TR space 15:32:21 s/gavin/ericP/ 15:32:52 Yes, Gavin, I see http://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/tests/ .... :-( 15:33:07 eric: test suites are finallized fairly early 15:33:38 ivan: no, they can even grow after REC, just need something frozen for process 15:33:57 guus: can we defer this until later? 15:34:01 sure, we'll be about to go to LC for every 15:34:04 ever 15:34:28 sandro: LC doesn't need all the details of the test suite 15:34:47 gavin: what to do about BASE and PREFIX? 15:35:07 guus: feature at risk, to obviate the need for a second last call 15:35:16 Exactly as SPARQL? 15:35:33 guus: gavin, is this OK by you 15:36:04 gavin: it is partly a matter of readability - doesn't matter for SPARQL 15:36:23 andy: SPARQL update alllows redefining prefixes 15:36:38 gavin: can you see the declarations in long documents? 15:37:30 STRAWPOLL: Add an AT RISK feature to Turtle, which gives SPARQL-like alternatives to @prefix and @base, namely case-insensitive PREFIX and BASE, with no period at the end of those lines. 15:37:48 no period? 15:38:02 andy: SPARQL has no . at end of line 15:38:14 -0.999 15:38:26 david: I want consistency 15:39:05 andy: either SPARQL or Turtle 15:39:19 david: so no @ then no . ?? 15:39:35 sandro: that's as per the straw poll 15:39:51 pReFiX prefix PrEfIx prefix2: @prefix :prefix3 . 15:40:06 guus: that's ugle 15:40:18 david: This would not break any old turtle. 15:40:30 s/ugle/ugly/ 15:41:10 obfuscated turtle contest? 15:41:16 So you can have ONE text you cut/paste in SPARQL *and* TURTLE. 15:41:40 david: only useful for compatability, otherwise useless 15:42:10 gavin: but SPARQL doesn't allow prefixes throughout, which produces a subtle issue 15:43:00 sandro: prefixes in middle is bad practice, but this allows one prefix stuff for both SPARQL and Turtle 15:43:20 guus: time for strawpoll 15:43:23 STRAWPOLL: Add an AT RISK feature to Turtle, which gives SPARQL-like alternatives to @prefix and @base, namely case-insensitive PREFIX and BASE, with no period at the end of those lines. 15:43:27 +1 15:43:29 +1 15:43:38 +0 15:43:44 -0, as I'll be against it later 15:43:44 -0.7 ... I'm a bit more convinced 15:43:48 +1 15:43:54 +0.2 15:43:54 +0 15:43:57 +0 15:44:00 -0 (refrain) 15:44:02 0 15:44:03 +0 15:44:05 0 15:44:07 0 15:44:17 +0 15:44:27 +0 15:44:35 guus: even so, let's do a feature at risk, because it can be removed later 15:44:58 guus: OK, gavin? 15:45:03 gavin: ok, ok, grumble, grumble 15:45:24 gavin: but I'll live 15:45:26 RESOLVED: Add an AT RISK feature to Turtle, which gives SPARQL-like alternatives to @prefix and @base, namely case-insensitive PREFIX and BASE, with no period at the end of those lines. 15:45:44 guus: grammar rule issues? 15:45:53 http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-grammar-grammar 15:46:28 gavin: turtle grammar should be updated 15:46:55 gavin: turtle grammar has been updated to reflect discussions 15:47:04 eric: what about yakker work 15:47:34 gavin: turtle isn't as complex as sparql, so it doesn't need all that 15:47:40 eric: ok 15:48:08 guus: let's delay for a week and schedule a formal decision next week 15:48:13 guus: OK? 15:48:16 q+ to make little grammar comment 15:48:30 Do remove the [*s] numbering style - it will change :-( 15:48:46 gavin: SPARQL form prefixes only without the dot? 15:48:56 guus: yes, that was the proposal 15:49:23 gavin: numbering will go 15:50:05 gavin: hyperlinks might be possible, linking to the name of the production 15:50:30 andy: SPARQL isn't at LC, so there is a slight risk 15:51:13 guus: thanks to the editors 15:51:22 RDF Concepts WD 15:51:44 guus: richard is not here, but there is a list to look at 15:52:02 guus: pending review issues 15:52:04 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012May/0222.html Richard's mail 15:52:31 guus: issue-66 XSD datatype maps 15:52:38 Issue-66? 15:52:38 ISSUE-66 -- Update XSD datatype map with new XSD 1.1 datatypes -- pending review 15:52:38 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/66 15:52:59 guus: no further discussion, to we will close this one 15:53:08 s/to/so/ 15:53:14 ISSUE-86? 15:53:14 ISSUE-86 -- Incompatible definitions of “graph equivalence” between RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics -- pending review 15:53:14 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/86 15:53:38 guus: issue-86, divergent definitions of graph equivalence 15:53:57 guus: no discussion, so this one is closed as well 15:54:01 ISSUE-13? 15:54:01 ISSUE-13 -- Review RDF XML Literals -- pending review 15:54:01 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/13 15:54:25 guus: issue-13, xml literal, had some discussion 15:54:56 mischat has joined #rdf-wg 15:55:22 guus: ivan had some comments 15:55:41 ivan: there was a long discussion 15:55:58 ivan: the end was a clean proposal that is now in Concepts 15:56:29 ivan: this appeared to be acceptable to the WG 15:56:37 +PatH 15:56:41 guus: no discussion, so this issue will be closed 15:56:48 zakim, mute me 15:56:49 PatH should now be muted 15:57:16 ISSUE-63? 15:57:16 ISSUE-63 -- Introduce an HTML5 datatype -- open 15:57:16 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/63 15:57:28 guus: ISSUE-63, HTML datatype 15:57:36 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012May/0222.html 15:57:50 ericP, gavinc -- isn't this wrong? BLANK_NODE_LABEL ::= '_:' PN_CHARS_U | [0-9] ((PN_CHARS | '.')* PN_CHARS)? There should be parens around PN_CHARS_U | [0-9]. 15:58:19 ivan: canonicalization .... 15:58:53 ivan: should there be equality on the value space? yes 15:59:11 ivan: internationalization group is interested here 15:59:24 sandro, sigh, yess... [135s] BLANK_NODE_LABEL ::= '_:' ( PN_CHARS_U | [0-9] ) ((PN_CHARS|'.')* PN_CHARS)? :( 15:59:41 see https://github.com/norcalrdf/pymantic/blob/master/pymantic/scripts/bnf2html 15:59:46 ivan: lexical equality doesn't survive beautification 16:00:16 ivan: my view is that we accept HTML datatypes as optional 16:00:54 PROPSED to accept the resolution to ISSUE 63 as proposed in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012May/0222.html 16:01:15 PROPOSED: to accept the resolution to ISSUE 63 as proposed in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012May/0222.html 16:01:22 +1 16:01:23 +1 16:01:24 guus: discussion? 16:01:32 +0 16:01:39 +1 without canonical mapping 16:01:48 0 16:02:21 PROPOSED: to accept the resolution to ISSUE 63 as proposed in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012May/0222.html but without the definition of the canonical mapping 16:02:28 +1 16:02:29 +0 16:02:31 +1 16:02:33 +0 16:02:36 +0 16:02:38 +1 16:02:39 +1 16:02:40 +1 16:02:41 +1 16:02:46 +0 16:02:50 +1 16:02:55 RESOLVED: to accept the resolution to ISSUE 63 as proposed in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012May/0222.html but without the definition of the canonical mapping 16:03:17 ivan: someone should respond to the I14N WG 16:03:24 belated +1 :) 16:03:36 ACTION ivan: tell I14N WG about HTML 5 resolution 16:03:36 Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - ivan 16:03:36 Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ivan, imikhail) 16:03:46 Gavin, in N-Triple originally (http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-testcases/#ntrip_grammar), EBNF for blank node label was: name ::= [A-Za-z][A-Za-z0-9]* 16:04:54 Souri, yes, blank nodes in N-Triples are not exactly the same as in Test Cases 16:05:38 track me if you can 16:05:45 So, the first character had to be Alpha earlier, but we are now going to allow AlphaNumeric as the first character -- just confirming. 16:06:06 guus: issue 87 16:06:14 Souri, correct. 16:06:21 gavin, have you seen http://railroad.my28msec.com/rr/ui (I discovered it yesterday -- it makes railroad diagrams in SVG from BNF.) 16:06:27 guus: issue 87 check datatypes 16:06:44 +q 16:06:46 Ivan's action is at https://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/172 16:06:51 zakim, unmute me 16:06:51 PatH should no longer be muted 16:06:59 ack sandro 16:06:59 sandro, you wanted to talk about "extensions to turtle"/"punting down the road" and to make little grammar comment 16:07:00 ack sandro 16:07:22 path: comment back from OWL WG? 16:07:40 zakim, mute me 16:07:40 PatH should now be muted 16:07:43 pfps: no substantive comment so we can proceed 16:08:54 PROPOSAL: Close ISSUE-87 without further action as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012May/0221.html 16:09:01 +1 16:09:07 +1 16:09:15 +1 16:09:16 +1 16:09:18 +1 16:09:18 +1 16:09:18 +1 16:09:26 RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-87 without further action as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012May/0221.html 16:09:31 +1 16:09:52 +1 16:10:01 PROPOSAL: Resolve ISSUE-88 by adding xsd:duration to the list of supported XSD datatypes in RDF 1.1 as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012May/0221.html 16:10:22 +0 16:10:31 +1 16:10:33 +1 16:10:37 +1 16:10:37 +1 aligns with