21:26:59 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #media
21:26:59 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/05/10-media-irc
21:27:23 <janina> zakim, room for 10?
21:27:25 <Zakim> ok, janina; conference Team_(media)21:27Z scheduled with code 2119 (A11Y) for 60 minutes until 2227Z
21:27:43 <JF> ah, cool, we can use a11y?
21:27:52 <janina> Looks like!
21:27:53 <JF> as in a11y# ?
21:28:02 <JF> dialing in now...
21:28:12 <Zakim> Team_(media)21:27Z has now started
21:28:18 <janina> Waiting for you!
21:28:19 <Zakim> +??P1
21:28:29 <janina> zakim, ??P1 is Janina
21:28:29 <Zakim> +Janina; got it
21:28:54 <Zakim> +John_Foliot
21:29:23 <JF> zakim, John_Foliot is JF
21:29:23 <Zakim> +JF; got it
21:30:46 <janina> zakim, this will be 2119
21:30:46 <Zakim> ok, janina; I see Team_(media)21:27Z scheduled to start 3 minutes ago
21:31:03 <janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y teleconference
21:31:03 <janina> Chair:  John_Foliot
21:31:03 <janina> Scribe: Janina_Sajka
21:31:03 <janina> agenda: this
21:31:03 <janina> agenda+ Time Tracks, Transcripts, and Issue-194
21:31:05 <janina> agenda+ Other Business?
21:31:08 <janina> agenda+ be done
21:33:20 <chaals> chaals has joined #media
21:33:51 <janina>  Chaas, are you dialing in? We're on Zakim 2119#
21:33:57 <chaals> thanks.
21:34:02 <chaals> I joined to find out.
21:34:22 <chaals> zakim, who is here?
21:34:22 <Zakim> I notice Team_(media)21:27Z has restarted
21:34:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see Janina, JF
21:34:23 <Zakim> On IRC I see chaals, RRSAgent, Zakim, JF, janina
21:34:55 <janina> There's a new CP on the floor, though!
21:35:16 <JF> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/Issue194_SP
21:35:26 <JF> just in case @chhals hasn't seen it
21:35:41 <janina> Of course, if Silvia doesn't wake up and grab some coffee, this may b a short meeting after all!
21:35:42 <JF> s/@chhals/chaals/
21:37:20 <silvia> silvia has joined #media
21:37:28 <silvia> Hi everyone
21:37:35 <silvia> sorry, I just found the channel
21:37:36 <janina> Hi, Silvia, code is 2119#
21:37:39 <JF> dial in code is a11y#
21:37:52 <janina> Or you can SIP 002119@voip.w3.org
21:38:14 <silvia> phone number?
21:38:27 <janina> U.S. +1.617.761.6200
21:38:53 <Zakim> +??P3
21:39:01 <chaals> zakim, ??P3 is me
21:39:01 <Zakim> +chaals; got it
21:39:08 <silvia> thanks
21:39:49 <Zakim> + +61.2.801.2.aaaa
21:39:57 <silvia> zakim, aaaa is me
21:39:57 <Zakim> +silvia; got it
21:41:43 <silvia> zakim, who is here?
21:41:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see Janina, JF, chaals, silvia
21:41:44 <Zakim> On IRC I see silvia, chaals, RRSAgent, Zakim, JF, janina
21:41:58 <janina> scribe: janina
21:42:08 <janina> zakim, take up item 1
21:42:08 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Time Tracks, Transcripts, and Issue-194" taken up [from janina]
21:42:34 <janina> jf: Background from the F2F just concluded
21:42:45 <janina> jf: Discussion with Ted started over dinner
21:42:57 <janina> jf: I thanked him for his research paper
21:43:16 <janina> sp: I helped him a bit with that
21:43:21 <janina> sp: He wrote it all up
21:43:26 <janina> jf: So thanks also to you!
21:43:46 <janina> sp: I'm still of the mind that we haven't thought it all through sufficiently yet
21:44:11 <janina> jf: That's also the critical thing for me. We shouldn't be deferring this to .next
21:44:43 <janina> jf: Not so concerned whether we get it over first LC or second LC, but we need it in this spec
21:45:13 <janina> sp: I'm most fussed over getting it right and not so much as whether it's this rev or .next
21:45:35 <janina> chls: I'd take a middle path, we need to go the right direction ...
21:46:38 <JF> JS: the more I have been thinking about this, less worried about the mechanism and more about user-accomodation perspective
21:46:56 <JF> becoming concerned about a unified presentation of options to the end user... button creep
21:47:41 <JF> if we don't have a mechanism that allows for reliable grouping, we could end up with too many controls in the UI
21:47:44 <chaals> q+
21:48:00 <janina> scribe: janina
21:48:00 <JF> ach ch
21:48:15 <janina> chls: I'm worked about having a reasonable uniform mechanism
21:48:40 <janina> chls: If we do for real come to a button creep problem, we'll have to deal with it
21:48:48 <janina> chls: But we probably won't get it right the first time
21:49:06 <janina> chls: The authoring complexity is my concern with the point-to link
21:49:22 <janina> chls: Strikes me much of this discussion is a proxy for longdesc
21:50:07 <janina> chls: The cable participants thought there was something else that was a hidden agenda when we talked about this during the F2F, which kept them out of the discussion
21:50:26 <janina> chls: I heard that in a side conversation
21:50:41 <JF> +1 to the perception that the initial discussion at the F2F was an @longdesc proxy discussion
21:51:22 <janina> chls: There won't be that many really full presentations--except large movie sites, government,
21:51:26 <janina> janina: Also education
21:51:28 <JF> Q+
21:51:33 <JF> ack chaals
21:51:35 <janina> sp: Which proposal are you referring to?
21:52:11 <janina> chls: As I read SP's current proposal, it seems what Ted was actioned to write at the F2F
21:52:43 <janina> jf: I would echo that as well
21:53:06 <janina> jf: The proposal that Ted was actioned to write would have an idref pointing to a uri
21:53:22 <chaals> s/As I read SP's current proposal, it seems what Ted was actioned to write at the F2F/The design pattern of pointing to a link external to the video element, as opposed to something inside it/
21:53:41 <janina> jf: As we discussed this more and more, many of us, especially a11y, came to like the tracks proposal best
21:53:48 <janina> jf: seemed simple and self-contained
21:53:59 <janina> sp: Superficially it's clearly that attractive
21:54:31 <janina> sp: Because it can be any format, pdf, odf, docx, daisy, it's more like a longdesc
21:54:38 <janina> sp: Is supposed to be a defined format
21:55:00 <janina> sp: Files that we want renedered on page, as well as those that we might buttons for, etc
21:55:19 <janina> sp: this makes my mind explode as to how to author, how to develop the implementation, etc
21:55:39 <janina> sp: There's no extra screen region to refer to outside the video element
21:55:52 <janina> sp: That's why i became so unhappy when I saw this
21:56:26 <janina> sp: So I backed off to basics ...
21:56:44 <janina> sp: The transcript doesn't require the video, you can consume it on browsers that can't render video/audio
21:56:55 <janina> sp: That's how I came up with the element outside the video element
21:57:25 <janina> sp: How we render, how we do the ui, we still need to work it all out
21:57:54 <janina> jf: My concern is still the copy and paste part
21:58:00 <janina> sp: but that's not how people embed videos
21:58:44 <janina> jf: Tip of the hat to youtube for figuring out a good way to do that
21:58:51 <janina> jf: But will that be the only model?
21:59:07 <janina> jf: Just concerned that the authoring pattern be very clear
22:00:13 <janina> sp: I appreciate the concern, but as a well developer, when I copy functionality to another page, I simply make sure I get it all
22:00:51 <janina> sp: All the sites I've seen that publish video provide a way, either iframe or a code segment that is selected and copied
22:01:04 <janina> sp: even now it includes more than the video element, title for instance
22:01:13 <JF> ack JF
22:01:17 <JF> Q+
22:01:30 <janina> q?
22:01:37 <JF> ack chaals
22:01:38 <janina> ack c
22:02:20 <janina> chls: ... looking at the tracks proposal
22:02:37 <silvia> q+
22:02:42 <janina> chls: Not sure how transcript in tracks, with 0 time ... how is that handled
22:03:32 <janina> chls: rendering into video space is probably not such a big issue, because people who can't see the video won't care about rendered video
22:03:46 <janina> chls: also not so concerned about linking -- we know how to handle links
22:04:14 <janina> chls: do exactly what Opera did with longdesc -- that does seem to work
22:04:29 <janina> chls: Our experience is that it works tolerably well
22:05:44 <janina> sp: At least in webvtt at the moment, we require start and end, so if it's only 0 it will sit there in a single queue
22:05:56 <janina> sp: js will have to do something with it--no rendering implied
22:06:25 <janina> sp: But then we restrict ourselves to transcript either in webvtt or ttml, but not the other file formats
22:06:40 <janina> q+ to ask is that bad? why not make that restriction?
22:07:40 <janina> sp: It doesn't give us rendering, what do we expect the web browser to do with it?
22:08:00 <JF> +1 to overt restrictions on trnscript file formats
22:08:15 <janina> chls: Agree that it restricts us and makes a mess because a lot of docs won't be available in that format
22:08:58 <janina> chls: we have the kind attrib to define what to do
22:08:58 <JF> <foobar kind="transcript">
22:09:24 <janina> chls: It could link out to a doc, pdf, etc
22:10:47 <janina> jf: Also a web developer--how I pay my bills--and work with a building full of other developers
22:11:05 <janina> chls: These still do silly things, hence my concern. We need to make the right thing simple and clear
22:11:23 <janina> jf: That's why I'm looking at the authoring pattern, not so much the underlying mechanism
22:12:29 <janina> sp: How then is the transcript rendered when it's inside the video element?
22:12:43 <janina> jf: via js, i suppose?
22:13:28 <janina> jf: Will work one way on my phone and differently on my laptop
22:13:54 <JF> ack JF
22:14:33 <janina> sp: video element, if we put stuff in there, affects a defined region of the screen.
22:15:02 <janina> sp: In recent years people have been backing off from too many buttons inside video
22:15:34 <janina> sp: what seems to be of issue is that we're only talking, so far, of one way of dealing with transcripts, whereas there are two other ways as well
22:16:02 <janina> sp: We have the not on screen but programatically discoverable transcript ...
22:17:05 <janina> sp: everything inside video is passed away by the browser--it's not in the dom
22:17:39 <JF> <video id=v1 src=video.mp4></video>
22:17:41 <JF> <p>Lorum Ipsum X 15 paragraphs</p>
22:17:42 <JF> <transcript for=v1 id=t1>
22:17:44 <JF>  <a href=transcript.html>Transcript for the video</a>
22:17:45 <JF> </transcript>
22:18:43 <janina> sp: we have all the techniques we need for associating transcript and video, even when it's not inside the element
22:19:46 <janina> jf: still concerned about the association between video and transcript when it's outside the element
22:20:01 <janina> sp: same for labels
22:20:11 <janina> sp: it's only that it makes sense for them to be next to each other
22:21:05 <janina> chls: I'm not so sure that the hidden discussion from i204 is unrelated to this
22:21:23 <janina> chls: we seem to be building something fragile -- when dealing with hiding stuff
22:23:09 <janina> chls: relying on a link to content that's somewhere else is the fragile part that's still problematic -- longdesc like
22:24:01 <janina> cls: people are still shipping display=none and 1pcsl gifs with alt, etc
22:24:02 <JF> Q?
22:24:34 <silvia> q-
22:24:45 <JF> s/pcsl/pixel/
22:24:58 <silvia> q+
22:25:08 <janina> chls: to my certain knowledge, WAI has been working on solving this for 15 years
22:25:09 <JF> Q+
22:25:43 <janina> chls: not yet convinced that any particular approach proposed is more or less fragile than another
22:26:24 <Zakim> -silvia
22:26:31 <janina> We'll wait for you!
22:27:44 <janina> rrsagent, make log public
22:27:51 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
22:27:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/10-media-minutes.html janina
22:28:30 <chaals> s/not yet convinced that any particular approach proposed is more or less fragile than another/I think that an approach which relies on techniques to make hidden text accessible is a very fragile one/
22:28:57 <janina> Silvia, from Zakim?
22:29:42 <silvia> yes - it's restricted
22:29:59 <silvia> call center is restricted at this time
22:30:10 <chaals> call center?
22:30:18 <chaals> not conference?
22:30:22 <silvia> the pass code is not valid
22:30:30 <chaals> i.e. is zakim telling you this?
22:30:32 <chaals> aha
22:31:53 <Zakim> -chaals
22:31:58 <Zakim> -JF
22:31:59 <janina> Silvia, use 26631#
22:32:04 <silvia> pk
22:32:07 <Zakim> -Janina
22:32:08 <Zakim> Team_(media)21:27Z has ended
22:32:08 <Zakim> Attendees were Janina, JF, chaals, +61.2.801.2.aaaa, silvia
22:32:34 <chaals> zakim, this is Team_cha
22:32:34 <Zakim> sorry, chaals, I do not see a conference named 'Team_cha' in progress or scheduled at this time
22:32:42 <chaals> zakim, this is Team_(cha
22:32:42 <Zakim> ok, chaals; that matches Team_(chaals)22:30Z
22:32:49 <chaals> zakim, who is here?
22:32:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P0, JF
22:32:50 <Zakim> On IRC I see silvia, chaals, RRSAgent, Zakim, JF, janina
22:32:56 <chaals> zakim, ??p0 is me
22:32:56 <Zakim> +chaals; got it
22:33:10 <Zakim> +silvia
22:33:21 <Zakim> +??P3
22:33:28 <silvia> zakim, who is here?
22:33:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see chaals, JF, silvia, ??P3
22:33:29 <chaals> zakim, ??p3 is janina
22:33:29 <Zakim> On IRC I see silvia, chaals, RRSAgent, Zakim, JF, janina
22:33:29 <Zakim> +janina; got it
22:33:30 <janina> zkim, ??P3 is Janina
22:34:23 <janina> sp: q about fragility? why if in video element? don't we have the same problem however we do it?
22:34:50 <janina> chls: in the elemtn we rely on browsers not doing stupid things
22:35:01 <janina> chls: outside, we rely on authors not doing stupid things
22:35:21 <janina> chls: experience suggests that even a million authors doing things right, there will be still others doing it wrong
22:35:31 <janina> sp: we still want rendering on the page, no?
22:35:38 <janina> [agreement in the room]
22:38:14 <janina> jf: I suspect we're thinking the link to transcript would be displayed as a control
22:38:42 <chaals> s/things right, there will be still others doing it/this right, there will still be masses of authors doing this/
22:39:30 <janina> jf: Citing experience with dlink which has not been successful
22:39:42 <janina> sp: are we repeating dlink?
22:39:56 <janina> jf: it seems so
22:40:03 <chaals> s/are we/why are we/
22:40:19 <chaals> s/it seems so/that is what relying on a text link is doing/
22:42:55 <janina> [process discussion on next steps in view that this was to be done May 11 according to F2F]
22:47:18 <janina> jf: any reason transcript element can't be child of video?
22:47:31 <janina> sp: yes, because it restricts us to the screen space assigned to video
22:47:45 <janina> sp: my approach gives us anothr view port
22:48:55 <JF> Q?
22:49:03 <janina> chls: agree with concern on rendering model
22:49:24 <janina> chls: one use case video not even rendered
22:50:00 <janina> janina: pointing out that the no video use case isn't just disability use case
22:50:13 <janina> chls: side by side still sensible rendering
22:50:20 <janina> chls; if has timing, no problem
22:51:11 <janina> chls: still not convinced that it's too hard to mix this in and that it requires external definition
22:51:34 <janina> chls: e.g. pasting a word doc into an iframe rendered side by side with the video
22:53:10 <janina> chls: of course it's more readable if read without the timing ml
22:53:18 <janina> chls: but harder to render in sync
22:53:58 <JF> Q+
22:55:04 <janina> sp; we should handle all types of transcripts in a uniform manner
22:55:07 <janina> q+
22:55:33 <janina> jf: don't think we're that far apart
22:55:38 <janina> janina +1 to not so far apart
22:56:03 <janina> jf: still fighting to preserve simple and clear author experience
22:57:16 <chaals> sp: my concern is that you wouldn't be able to render the transcript in parallel with the video
22:57:48 <chaals> q+
22:57:57 <janina> sp: my proposal is similar to the signed translation being in a separate video and the video description in a separate audio element
22:58:26 <JF> ack JF
22:59:29 <chaals> jf: use case is to save the transcript, and read later.
23:02:33 <Zakim> -chaals
23:04:01 <chaals> [I agree that it should be possible to render side-by-side. I don't see how any of the proposals get away from "the web developer has to make that feasible" (on the basis that browsers getting into hcking the display of pages is a pretty fragile way to work)]
23:04:57 <chaals> [I am concerned about the issue of whether the transcript data should be inside or outside, but I may be convinced that having it outside is workable (I would have to "evolve my position" to get there...)]
23:05:28 <silvia> we're considering another call tomorrow same time
23:05:35 <silvia> does that work for you?
23:05:50 <JF> chaals, we are going to try and reconvene at the same time tomorrow
23:06:08 <chaals> [I am really concerned about building on top of a bit of page content, because I believe that is repeating the D-link experiment. People *will* try to hide the text (which means you lose any benefit over the original longdesc approach), and will get it wrong...]
23:06:33 <silvia> I'll think this through for tomorrow...
23:07:32 <chaals> I'll try for tomorrow.
23:08:02 <chaals> [I am not that fussed about the colour of the bike shed. There are many ways to make a colour scheme consistent in my bike shed]
23:08:47 <chaals> [Oh. I mean that there are multiple ways to get consistency while tossing around attribute/element, special name or re-use something, ...]
23:08:54 <Zakim> -janina
23:08:56 <Zakim> -silvia
23:08:58 <janina> zakim, bye
23:08:58 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were JF, silvia, chaals, janina
23:08:58 <Zakim> Zakim has left #media
23:09:08 <janina> rrsagent make minutes
23:10:51 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
23:10:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/10-media-minutes.html janina