13:52:02 RRSAgent has joined #eval 13:52:02 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/05/10-eval-irc 13:52:04 RRSAgent, make logs world 13:52:04 Zakim has joined #eval 13:52:06 Zakim, this will be 3825 13:52:06 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes 13:52:07 Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference 13:52:07 Date: 10 May 2012 13:56:31 sds has joined #eval 13:57:15 zakim, who is on the phone? 13:57:15 WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has not yet started, ssirois 13:57:16 On IRC I see ssirois, Zakim, RRSAgent, Kathy, vivienne, Aurelien_levy, shadi, trackbot 13:57:40 zakim, mute me 13:57:40 sorry, ssirois, I don't know what conference this is 13:58:00 i'm on the phone but my connection is a bit buggy 13:58:24 zakim, this is eval 13:58:24 ok, shadi; that matches WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM 13:58:35 zakim, who is on the phone? 13:58:35 On the phone I see Kathy, Don, +1.450.682.aaaa, ??P3, ??P4 13:58:41 Kerstin has joined #eval 13:58:46 did anybody hear me ? 13:58:48 zakim, mute me 13:58:48 sorry, vivienne, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 13:59:19 korn has joined #eval 13:59:19 +Shadi 13:59:26 + +1.720.708.aabb 13:59:31 Sarah_Swierenga has joined #eval 13:59:33 shadi, do you know which connection belongs to Vivienne? 13:59:44 I'm sorry I wasn't able to be here for the last three meetings. I'm tring to catch up on the list. 13:59:51 ack me 14:00:04 zakim, mute me 14:00:04 sorry, Kerstin, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 14:00:06 Liz has joined #eval 14:00:09 zakim, aaaa is Samuel 14:00:09 +Samuel; got it 14:00:14 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:00:14 On the phone I see Kathy, Don, Samuel, ??P3, ??P4, Shadi, +1.720.708.aabb 14:00:14 Detlev has joined #eval 14:00:17 +Sarah_Swierenga 14:00:26 zakim, mute me 14:00:26 sorry, ssirois, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 14:00:28 agarrison has joined #eval 14:00:33 ericvelleman has joined #eval 14:00:45 +Liz 14:00:55 zakim, ??p3 is Vivienne 14:00:56 Running a little late... 14:01:02 + +49.404.318.aacc 14:01:04 +Vivienne; got it 14:01:09 zakim, mute vivienne 14:01:14 Vivienne should now be muted 14:01:24 Zakim, aacc is Detlev 14:01:25 +Detlev; got it 14:01:26 zakim, samuel is me 14:01:26 +ssirois; got it 14:01:35 zakim, mute me 14:01:35 Kathy should now be muted 14:01:35 zakim, mute me 14:01:37 sorry, Kerstin, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 14:01:47 zakim, Vivienne is Kerstin 14:01:48 +Kerstin; got it 14:01:51 Zakim, mute me 14:01:52 Detlev should now be muted 14:01:54 +[Oracle] 14:01:58 zakim, ??p4 is Vivienne 14:01:58 +Vivienne; got it 14:01:58 zakim, mute me 14:02:00 Kerstin was already muted, Kerstin 14:02:04 zakim: +racle is Peter 14:02:10 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:02:10 On the phone I see Kathy (muted), Don, ssirois, Kerstin (muted), Vivienne, Shadi, +1.720.708.aabb, Sarah_Swierenga, Liz, Detlev (muted), [Oracle] 14:02:14 Zakim: +Oracle is Peter 14:02:26 zakim, mute me 14:02:26 ssirois should now be muted 14:02:29 zakim, Oracle is Peter 14:02:29 +Peter; got it 14:02:45 +ericvelleman 14:02:46 maybe i'am +1.720.708.aabb 14:02:52 + +1.720.708.aadd 14:02:55 zakim, unmute me 14:02:55 Kerstin should no longer be muted 14:03:00 zakim, mute me 14:03:00 Kerstin should now be muted 14:03:06 Just joined 14:03:08 zakim, aabb is Aurelien_levy 14:03:09 +Aurelien_levy; got it 14:03:44 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-evaltf/2012Apr/0075.html 14:03:55 +Mike 14:04:12 Mike_Elledge has joined #eval 14:04:16 I've joined but it doesn't show 14:04:32 scribe: agarrison 14:04:43 zakim, mute me 14:04:43 Vivienne should now be muted 14:04:48 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:04:48 On the phone I see Kathy (muted), Don, ssirois (muted), Kerstin (muted), Vivienne (muted), Shadi, Aurelien_levy, Sarah_Swierenga, Liz, Detlev (muted), Peter, ericvelleman, 14:04:51 ... +1.720.708.aadd, Mike 14:05:18 zakim, aadd is agarrison 14:05:18 +agarrison; got it 14:05:26 zakim, mute me 14:05:26 Shadi should now be muted 14:05:31 Eric - Welcome 14:05:40 http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20120510 14:05:48 Topic: Comments Received 14:05:50 +Maureen_Kraft 14:05:56 Public working draft has ended - so looking at 7 public comments 14:06:01 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wcag-em-comments/ 14:06:36 ack me 14:06:58 zakim, mute me 14:06:58 Shadi should now be muted 14:06:58 Eric - Interesting positive comments from the public, all of which will be placed in a document 14:07:22 MoeKraft has joined #eval 14:07:22 Zakim, mute me 14:07:22 Aurelien_levy should now be muted 14:07:30 +1 14:07:30 Eric - we will have a list of comments etc... which can be discussed in the next phone meeting 14:07:30 yes. 14:07:33 +1 14:07:35 +1 14:07:39 i loved that approach last time. 14:07:42 +1 14:07:42 +1 14:07:46 +1 14:07:54 +1 14:08:10 +1 14:08:17 Eric - this document should be ready for Monday 14:08:49 Eric - the next call will focus on the comments 14:08:51 ack me 14:08:53 q+ 14:09:03 q? 14:09:18 Eric - how will the comments affect the draft 14:09:23 zakim, mute me 14:09:23 Shadi should now be muted 14:09:26 richard has joined #eval 14:09:34 Peter - Not available next week 14:10:01 Eric - There will be more opportunity to talk about the comments on an on-going basis 14:10:51 Eric - You could enter any comments in the document, if you are unable to take part in the call 14:10:51 +??P36 14:11:06 q? 14:11:15 q- 14:11:23 Peter - V.Busy 14:11:39 -Kerstin 14:11:53 zakim ??P36 is richard 14:12:20 Eric - Point 3 - new version of editors draft 14:12:26 + +1.703.227.aaee 14:12:31 Eric - walking through changes 14:12:35 Zakim, unmute me 14:12:35 Aurelien_levy should no longer be muted 14:13:15 +??P39 14:13:17 Ryladog has joined #eval 14:13:25 Eric - I made changes to earlier sections based on discussion - the changes have been documented in a email sent to the list 14:13:33 ack me 14:13:36 Sorry for coming late 14:13:50 Zakim, who is talking? 14:13:55 shadi, no, don't think so 14:14:00 Do you have that echo, too? 14:14:01 korn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Shadi (40%), ericvelleman (83%), Peter (9%), Maureen_Kraft (20%), ??P39 (61%) 14:14:08 Zakim P39 is Aurelien_levy 14:14:26 zakim, aaee is Ryladog 14:14:26 +Ryladog; got it 14:14:34 Zakim P39 is Aurelien_levy" 14:14:43 zakim, ??p39 is Aurelien_levy 14:14:43 +Aurelien_levy; got it 14:14:52 There is a feedback loop on the line... 14:15:06 Zakim, mute me 14:15:06 Aurelien_levy should now be muted 14:15:29 maybe everyone should mute themselves? 14:15:33 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:15:33 On the phone I see Kathy (muted), Don, ssirois (muted), Vivienne (muted), Shadi, Aurelien_levy (muted), Sarah_Swierenga, Liz, Detlev (muted), Peter, ericvelleman, agarrison, Mike, 14:15:36 ... Maureen_Kraft, ??P36, Ryladog, Aurelien_levy.a 14:15:51 zakim, drop Aurelien_levy 14:15:51 Aurelien_levy is being disconnected 14:15:52 -Aurelien_levy 14:15:58 p36 is richard 14:16:04 zakim, ??p36 is richard 14:16:04 +richard; got it 14:16:18 zakim, mute richard 14:16:18 richard should now be muted 14:16:24 I've muted locally 14:16:47 +agarrison.a 14:16:47 Who is sitting in the Sydney Opera Hall??? 14:16:59 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:16:59 On the phone I see Kathy (muted), Don, ssirois (muted), Vivienne (muted), Shadi, Sarah_Swierenga, Liz, Detlev (muted), Peter, ericvelleman, agarrison, Mike, Maureen_Kraft, richard 14:17:02 zakim, mute me 14:17:03 ... (muted), Ryladog, Aurelien_levy.a, agarrison.a 14:17:03 sorry, Kerstin, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 14:17:06 there are a few people not muted - Sarah, Liz, Alistair and Mike 14:17:16 Locally muted 14:17:20 Shadi, can we simply mute EVERYONE except Eric? 14:17:24 zakim, mute Ryladog 14:17:24 Ryladog should now be muted 14:17:26 Then folks can unmute when they get into queue? 14:17:46 zakim, mute me 14:17:46 sorry, korn, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 14:17:52 zakim, mute Peter 14:17:52 Peter should now be muted 14:17:55 zakim, unmute me 14:17:55 Ryladog should no longer be muted 14:17:57 mute me 14:18:02 oh! it worked... 14:18:09 much better 14:18:11 but now we don't know who it was! ;) 14:18:14 mute me 14:18:19 Zakim, unmute Peter 14:18:19 Peter should no longer be muted 14:18:24 zakim, mute me 14:18:24 Shadi should now be muted 14:18:28 Zakim, mute me 14:18:28 Liz should now be muted 14:18:30 zakim is not my friend today 14:18:36 Eric - line ok 14:18:41 zakim, mute me 14:18:41 sorry, Kerstin, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 14:18:51 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:18:51 On the phone I see Kathy (muted), Don, ssirois (muted), Vivienne (muted), Shadi (muted), Sarah_Swierenga, Liz (muted), Detlev (muted), Peter, ericvelleman, agarrison, Mike, 14:18:52 q+ 14:18:55 ... Maureen_Kraft, richard (muted), Ryladog, Aurelien_levy.a, agarrison.a 14:18:57 Eric - Added in section 3 - a web application could be a single webpage 14:19:12 Eric - Peter talked about a one page application 14:19:38 Eric - However, a single page could contain many components - so we looked at use cases 14:20:05 Eric - Difficult when looking at a web app to record urls 14:20:12 maybe we also can speak about component 14:20:12 q? 14:20:13 We had to do that recently 14:20:16 zakim, agarrison.a is probably kerstin 14:20:16 +kerstin?; got it 14:20:20 Eric - Difficult to log the urls in a report 14:20:22 q? 14:20:25 q? 14:20:34 Eric - anyone have any ideas how this could be handled 14:20:34 zakim, mute me 14:20:34 kerstin? should now be muted 14:20:36 ack k 14:20:50 Peter - web applications may only be on a single page 14:21:02 q- 14:21:05 Peter - this might sum up the situation a bit better 14:21:30 Eric - Even if there are more than one pages - there still could be a several uses cases 14:21:55 Peter - you would have to describe the things which have been done on each page i.e. each use case followed 14:22:02 q? 14:22:19 q+ 14:22:21 we can described the uses cases and we also can identify the component using xpath or id 14:22:31 Tim has joined #eval 14:22:38 q? 14:22:40 ack me 14:22:43 Eric - How would you record this in a machine readable way 14:23:07 q+ 14:23:16 Zakim, unmute me 14:23:16 Aurelien_levy.a was not muted, Aurelien_levy 14:23:20 Shadi - Peter used the term screen instead of page - maybe this is better to talk about than page 14:23:44 zakim, mute me 14:23:44 Shadi should now be muted 14:23:48 Shadi - note - with a web application we could talk about screen instead of web page 14:23:50 q? 14:24:01 Peter - forgotten comment, but like the idea 14:24:18 q+ 14:24:25 q- 14:24:37 Peter - maybe we would want to consider a more formal definition of screen with respect to web apps 14:24:42 ack richard 14:25:05 q+ 14:25:21 Richard - Not happy with doing evaluation on one or two pages - we should be looking in terms of websites 14:25:51 +Tim_Boland 14:26:31 Eric - but what if the website has three pages which contain several applications 14:26:37 q? 14:27:19 q- 14:27:19 q? 14:27:22 Eric - You could do 1000s of things through these pages - rather than just pages 14:27:44 Zakim,mute me 14:27:44 richard should now be muted 14:27:47 Eric - we could add a definition of screen 14:27:47 q+ 14:27:53 q- 14:28:04 q+ 14:28:05 Eric - do we know if this has been discussed in W3C 14:28:15 Katie - could be under the mobile one section 14:28:31 -Aurelien_levy.a 14:28:44 Peter - using mobile could be difficult - as it could relate to the concept of forms 14:28:58 q- 14:29:07 Peter - the larger concept of 'screen' would be useful 14:29:14 q? 14:29:22 Katie - in the old days the screen was called view port 14:29:22 +??P27 14:29:38 q+ 14:29:41 Eric - send me a link if there is any further information 14:29:43 ack me 14:29:44 q? 14:29:52 it's me again fighting with my connection 14:30:16 q+ 14:30:16 zakim, drop Aurelien_levy 14:30:17 sorry, shadi, I do not see a party named 'Aurelien_levy' 14:30:24 Detlev - Screen may not be the best term, what happens if you have hidden screens etc... could be confusing 14:30:32 zakim, ??p27 is Aurelien_levy 14:30:32 +Aurelien_levy; got it 14:30:37 Detlev - maybe state changes could cover it 14:31:01 Zakim, mute me 14:31:01 Detlev should now be muted 14:31:04 Eric - could be worth considering it - maybe extending the definition of web page 14:31:14 Eric - step 5 a 14:31:30 Eric - Provide additional information about paths 14:31:43 Sorry Eric, where is that? 14:31:45 Eric - how do you describe paths which have been followed. 14:31:49 agarrison 14:31:54 +q 14:32:10 q? 14:32:11 thanks, was not looking properly 14:32:40 I think Deque Fireeyes extension generate some scenario file 14:32:50 Peter - notion of screen raises important questions - what is a screen, accordion, refresh 14:33:06 Bye folks, have to go to another meeting. Ciao/Cheers/a bientot. 14:33:19 -Mike 14:33:27 Peter - bullet at end of 5a - don't think we can define path until we more fully understand other concepts 14:33:33 5a. last bullet makes sense to me 14:33:42 Peter - how important is machine readability 14:33:43 I think my mic is generating the echo so i can't unmute 14:34:01 Eric - machine readable reports allow easy comparisons 14:34:19 q? 14:34:36 q+ 14:34:39 q- 14:34:44 Peter - from my past in software testing - coverage / path testing - could be a large and time consuming thing 14:35:01 q+ 14:35:27 AG: macros can record the steps taken 14:35:38 ...where clicked and where that lead you to 14:35:47 ack me 14:35:53 ack agarrison 14:35:53 q? 14:35:58 Alistair - macros could be recorded to go along with use cases 14:36:30 Mathew - how can we continue to provide machine readable reports without being bond to a product 14:36:45 s/Mathew/Samuel 14:37:12 Samuel - there are products which could do this but it might be tricky 14:37:31 Eric - Remembered that machine readable report is optional 14:37:32 q+ 14:37:56 q- 14:37:59 Eric - This is just looking at a way which would easily create a machine readable report 14:38:23 q+ 14:38:26 zakim, mute me 14:38:26 ssirois should now be muted 14:38:27 Samuel - Wondering if someone from Evaluation and Report Group could comment 14:38:42 Peter - good to hear that this is an optional area 14:38:56 Peter - as things change quickly 14:39:14 Peter - recording macros could be brittle, and not 100% accurate 14:39:18 q- 14:39:31 Peter - we should ensure that this section is optional 14:39:53 one sort of marco command is : http://seleniumhq.org/docs/ 14:39:54 Eric - it would still be good to look at how to do it 14:39:58 ack me 14:40:00 q? 14:40:10 ?+ 14:40:23 ack me 14:40:29 Zakim, mute me 14:40:29 Detlev should now be muted 14:40:44 Shadi - chairs EARL working group 14:41:14 i can take the task of inviting someone from the ERT WG on our next meeting or i can discuss a little with them (since i'm registered to there mailing list) in order to understand how EARL 1.0 Schema could help us. (see http://www.w3.org/TR/EARL10-Schema/) 14:41:20 Shadi - EARL supports a number of ways to record page e.g. xpath, xpointer, exchange between server and client 14:41:31 q+ 14:41:43 Shadi - Peter was saying that it was not 100% accurate 14:41:52 Step 4.d: Archive Web Pages for Reference (Optional) 14:41:59 Shadi - Another important point was archive web pages 14:42:28 Shadi - in the context of an application which show personal information could be tricky 14:42:40 q+ 14:42:49 Shadi - we might not want to record such information 14:42:53 q- 14:43:08 zakim, mute me 14:43:08 Shadi should now be muted 14:43:08 q- 14:43:09 q? 14:43:16 Shadi - we would just have to outline the situation 14:43:16 ack me 14:44:08 q? 14:44:09 zakim, mute me 14:44:09 Vivienne should now be muted 14:44:10 Vivienne - Archiving pages - Needed to record websites - Can you save dynamic pages into blackbox 14:44:19 ack me 14:44:34 Peter - it depends upon the page and site 14:44:38 -Aurelien_levy 14:45:18 +??P27 14:45:29 q+ 14:45:32 Peter - trying to record pages which rely on local code presents a problem 14:45:39 q- 14:45:55 Eric - can we think of a standardised format 14:45:55 Zakim, P27 is Aurelien_levy 14:45:55 sorry, Aurelien_levy, I do not recognize a party named 'P27' 14:45:56 q? 14:46:00 ack me 14:46:12 Zakim, +??P27 is Aurelien_levy 14:46:12 sorry, Aurelien_levy, I do not recognize a party named '+??P27' 14:46:16 Shadi - you can record the DOM at best 14:46:33 q+ 14:46:34 Zakim, ??P27 is Aurelien_levy 14:46:34 +Aurelien_levy; got it 14:46:38 Shadi - DOM plus steps to get to the DOM 14:47:00 Shadi - edge cases 14:47:23 Eric - can we have input from the EARL working group 14:47:46 Shadi - is that 5f optional machine readable reports 14:48:07 Shadi - what do we specifically want to record 14:48:31 Alistair - How does google cache pages? 14:49:07 q? 14:49:21 Eric - will add to 5f - trying to put in information for people who would want to provide machine readable reports 14:49:25 q+ 14:50:01 q- 14:50:03 zakim, mute me 14:50:03 Shadi should now be muted 14:50:08 q? 14:50:23 Alistair - how many applications can read machine readable reports? 14:50:38 q- 14:50:45