15:03:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
15:03:01 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/05/09-forms-irc
15:03:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:03:03 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #forms
15:03:05 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_XForms
15:03:05 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see IA_XForms()11:00AM already started
15:03:06 <trackbot> Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference
15:03:06 <trackbot> Date: 09 May 2012
15:03:15 <nvdbleek> zakim, code?
15:03:15 <Zakim> the conference code is 93676 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek
15:03:47 <Zakim> +nvdbleek
15:03:57 <nvdbleek> zakim, who is here
15:03:57 <Zakim> nvdbleek, you need to end that query with '?'
15:04:06 <nvdbleek> zakim, who is here?
15:04:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfennell, nvdbleek
15:04:08 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, nvdbleek, alain, pfennell, trackbot
15:05:01 <Zakim> -nvdbleek
15:05:03 <Zakim> +??P28
15:05:27 <alain> Zakim, I am ??P28
15:05:27 <Zakim> +alain; got it
15:05:28 <Zakim> +nvdbleek
15:07:17 <nvdbleek> Chair: Philip
15:07:50 <pfennell> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012May/0001.html
15:08:19 <pfennell> Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference
15:08:46 <pfennell> Regrets: Steven
15:08:55 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
15:09:07 <pfennell> Date: 09 May 2012
15:09:39 <Zakim> +ebruchez
15:11:36 <nvdbleek> scribe:nick
15:11:46 <nvdbleek> scribenick:nvdbleek
15:15:13 <nvdbleek> TOPIC: XForms Users Community Group
15:16:09 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: Leigh was going to start a discussion about Goals and transfer the needed documents to the community 
15:17:40 <pfennell> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2012Apr/0010.html
15:18:15 <nvdbleek> TOPIC: XPath 2.0: on bindings to atomic values and the result of the  
15:18:15 <nvdbleek> element()/attribute() functions
15:18:32 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: we discussed this in a previous call
15:19:05 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: We had one open question about what to do when you bind to a node that doesn't belongs to an instance
15:19:25 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: I will lookup the minutes
15:20:05 <ebruchez> http://www.w3.org/2012/04/04-forms-minutes.html#item04
15:21:36 <ebruchez> <xforms:input ref="element('foo')">
15:21:41 <nvdbleek> pfennell: how can you bind to node that doesn't belongs to an instance?
15:21:59 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: By using for example: <xforms:input ref="element('foo')">
15:22:37 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: There are other possibilities the transform function, the document function
15:22:49 <nvdbleek> alain: event()
15:23:03 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: not sure about the event() 
15:23:57 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: one issue is that the control will loose its value when the binding is re-evaluated
15:24:42 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: A proposal was to make the controls read-only when a control is bound to a node if not in the instance
15:25:13 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: we need to answer what the element() returns, is it a mutable node?
15:25:15 <ebruchez> <xforms:var name="new" value="element('foo')"/>
15:25:19 <alain> response-headers http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#submit-evt-submit-done
15:25:41 <ebruchez> <xforms:setvalue ref="$new" value="42"/>
15:27:26 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: A frequent use case is that the instance doesn't has all elements and attributes, therefore we added the element() and attribute() function
15:28:16 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: for atomic values it is clear that it is read-only because you can't write to it
15:28:53 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: last week we had the discussion to binding to text(), comments() and pi nodes
15:30:45 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: in my proposal the result of element() is in-mutable so the setvalue action wouldn't update it
15:31:17 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: you may want to prepare the tree before inserting
15:32:59 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: I think we need to be careful that we make it interoperable when we allow changing elements that don't belong to the instance 
15:34:37 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: we already have a check for the mutation actions that they aren't read-only (it is just another way of read-onlyness)
15:36:29 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: we are currently creating a lot of transient instances, and if you aren't able to create a mutable sub-tree in an action
15:39:10 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: I think if we make the trees mutable we have to specify carefully to say what happens, otherwise it would be not iterropable between implementations
15:39:47 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: I think we just add a note that you shouldn't bind controls to non-instance-nodes, and that it will behave 'strange'
15:40:53 <nvdbleek> pfennell: how would you be able to add MIPS to nodes that don't belong to an instance
15:41:34 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: The functions are meant to use in actions, when the nodes are inserted in an instance, they become mutable.
15:42:09 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: you won't be able to bind to them
15:44:13 <ebruchez> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XPath_Expressions_Module#The_valid.28.29_Function
15:44:17 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: I'm a bit scared that someone will create a top level variable that uses the element() and in some implementation it won't never be re-evaluated and in other implementations it would be at every refresh
15:44:40 <ebruchez> "If the function is used in a model binding expression the XForms Processor should terminate processing after dispatching the event xforms-binding-exception to the model"
15:45:26 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: We could restrict where the element() is used
15:45:37 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: it may result in an exception
15:46:37 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: It will result in an exception in any binding expressions
15:46:53 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: everywhere outside an action
15:47:49 <pfennell> Sorry about that, I'm back now.
15:47:57 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: what if you are only using it in a transient way inside an expression
15:51:33 <ebruchez> I would be fine if:
15:51:54 <ebruchez> 1. element() and attribute() return mutable nodes
15:52:09 <ebruchez> 2. this implies you can set value/insert/delete
15:52:44 <ebruchez> 3. field of use for the function would be limited to actions (i.e. prevented in bindings etc.), like the valid() function
15:55:09 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: you can declare a variable and use the variable  later in a UI control  
15:55:39 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: using this schema you can use the element() indirectly
15:55:59 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: we could exclude it everywhere outside an action
15:56:11 <nvdbleek> pfennell: what is the scoping of variable
15:57:00 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: in XForms 2.0 it is lexical scoped, in our implementation if you add a variable to a model, you can use the variable if it is in the current model
15:59:24 <nvdbleek> rrsagent, make minutes
15:59:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/09-forms-minutes.html nvdbleek
15:59:25 <nvdbleek> rrsagent, bye
15:59:25 <RRSAgent> I see no action items