13:19:00 RRSAgent has joined #dap 13:19:00 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/05/09-dap-irc 13:19:02 RRSAgent, make logs world 13:19:04 Zakim, this will be DAP 13:19:04 ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 41 minutes 13:19:05 Meeting: Device APIs Working Group Teleconference 13:19:05 Date: 09 May 2012 13:19:27 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2012May/0052.html 13:19:59 Regrets+ Robin_Berjon 13:20:19 Chair: Frederick_Hirsch 13:20:22 Present+ Frederick_Hirsch 13:22:13 mparaz has joined #dap 13:49:45 mparaz has joined #dap 13:50:29 glenn has joined #dap 13:54:05 zakim, code? 13:54:05 the conference code is 3279 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), fjh 13:54:42 Deep has joined #dap 13:55:02 Present+ Deepanshu_Gautam 13:55:10 UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started 13:55:17 +??P3 13:55:22 zakim, ??P3 is me 13:55:22 +fjh; got it 13:55:47 +Josh_Soref 13:56:32 +??P5 13:56:42 Scribe: Josh_Soref 13:56:49 MilanPatel has joined #dap 13:56:51 zakim, mute me 13:56:51 sorry, Deep, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 13:57:02 Zakim, who is on the call? 13:57:02 On the phone I see fjh, Josh_Soref, ??P5 13:57:02 zakim, ??P5 Deep 13:57:03 I don't understand '??P5 Deep', fjh 13:57:08 zakim, ??P5 is Deep 13:57:08 +Deep; got it 13:57:10 dtran has joined #dap 13:57:20 + +91.80.39.99.aaaa 13:57:29 Present+ Dzung_Tran 13:57:32 zakim mute me 13:57:41 s/zakim mute me// 13:57:44 Zakim, mute deep 13:57:44 Deep should now be muted 13:57:46 dsr has joined #dap 13:57:59 RRSAgent, draft minutes 13:57:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/09-dap-minutes.html Josh_Soref 13:58:06 dsr has changed the topic to: back to the future 13:58:12 RRSAgent, draft minutes 13:58:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/09-dap-minutes.html Josh_Soref 13:58:31 Present+ Samarth_D 13:58:42 Jungkee has joined #dap 13:58:44 Zakim, where is +91? 13:58:44 country code 91 is India 13:58:48 Present+ Jungkee_Song 13:58:49 zakim, aaaa is samarth 13:58:49 +samarth; got it 13:58:53 dcheng3 has joined #dap 13:58:56 AnssiK has joined #dap 13:59:46 +milan 14:00:28 zakim, who is here? 14:00:28 On the phone I see fjh, Josh_Soref, Deep (muted), samarth (muted), milan 14:00:30 Cathy has joined #dap 14:00:30 On IRC I see AnssiK, dcheng3, Jungkee, dsr, dtran, MilanPatel, Deep, mparaz, RRSAgent, fjh, samarth, richt, trackbot, mounir, lgombos, rektide, ilkka, Zakim, hiroto_away, 14:00:30 ... Josh_Soref, dom 14:00:39 +??P10 14:00:50 + +33.2.31.26.aabb 14:00:55 +??P11 14:00:57 Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen 14:01:01 zakim, +??P10 is Jungkee 14:01:01 sorry, Jungkee, I do not recognize a party named '+??P10' 14:01:02 zakim, ??P11 is me 14:01:03 +AnssiK; got it 14:01:04 +dtran 14:01:05 + +46.1.07.15.aacc 14:01:14 +Dsr 14:01:15 Zakim, who is on the call? 14:01:15 On the phone I see fjh, Josh_Soref, Deep (muted), samarth (muted), milan, ??P10, +33.2.31.26.aabb (muted), AnssiK, +46.1.07.15.aacc, dtran (muted), Dsr (muted) 14:01:25 zakim, where is +33? 14:01:25 country code 33 is France 14:01:26 Sylvain_lalande has joined #dap 14:01:26 zakim, ??P10 is Jungkee 14:01:29 +Jungkee; got it 14:01:31 Zakim, where is +46? 14:01:34 -Dsr 14:01:36 country code 46 is Sweden 14:01:45 +Dsr 14:01:46 zakim, where is +46? 14:01:52 country code 46 is Sweden 14:02:03 +Cathy 14:02:05 zakim, who is here? 14:02:05 On the phone I see fjh, Josh_Soref, Deep (muted), samarth (muted), milan, Jungkee, +33.2.31.26.aabb (muted), AnssiK, +46.1.07.15.aacc, dtran (muted), Dsr, Cathy 14:02:09 On IRC I see Sylvain_lalande, Cathy, AnssiK, dcheng3, Jungkee, dsr, dtran, MilanPatel, Deep, mparaz, RRSAgent, fjh, samarth, richt, trackbot, mounir, lgombos, rektide, ilkka, 14:02:09 ... Zakim, hiroto_away, Josh_Soref, dom 14:02:12 Present+ Dave 14:02:17 aabb is me 14:02:22 + +49.173.537.aadd 14:02:24 - +49.173.537.aadd 14:02:46 zakim, aacc is niklas 14:02:46 +niklas; got it 14:02:49 + +49.173.537.aaee 14:02:50 nwidell has joined #dap 14:02:54 +bryan 14:02:54 Zakim, aabb is me 14:02:55 +Josh_Soref; got it 14:03:00 Present+ Diana_Cheng 14:03:00 s/aabb is me// 14:03:03 RRSAgent, draft minutes 14:03:03 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/09-dap-minutes.html Josh_Soref 14:03:05 Claes has joined #dap 14:03:07 Present+ Bryan_Sullivan 14:03:10 Present+ Niklas_Widell 14:03:13 zakim, aaee is dcheng3 14:03:13 +dcheng3; got it 14:03:21 s/aabb is me// 14:03:23 RRSAgent, draft minutes 14:03:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/09-dap-minutes.html Josh_Soref 14:03:34 zakim, who is here? 14:03:34 On the phone I see fjh, Josh_Soref, Deep (muted), samarth (muted), milan, Jungkee, Josh_Soref.a (muted), AnssiK, niklas, dtran (muted), Dsr, Cathy, dcheng3, bryan 14:03:38 On IRC I see Claes, nwidell, Sylvain_lalande, Cathy, AnssiK, dcheng3, Jungkee, dsr, dtran, MilanPatel, Deep, mparaz, RRSAgent, fjh, samarth, richt, trackbot, mounir, lgombos, 14:03:38 ... rektide, ilkka, Zakim, hiroto_away, Josh_Soref, dom 14:03:48 Topic: Administrative 14:04:04 CR of Battery API published: http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/CR-battery-status-20120508/ 14:04:04 CR of Vibration API published: http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/CR-vibration-20120508/ 14:04:05 + +46.1.08.00.aaff 14:04:36 Zakim, aaff is Claes 14:04:36 +Claes; got it 14:04:36 Zakim, who is making noise? 14:04:38 -fjh 14:04:48 Josh_Soref, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Josh_Soref (27%) 14:04:50 +Frederick_Hirsch 14:05:03 Present+ Claes_Nilsson 14:05:33 -Frederick_Hirsch 14:05:41 +??P3 14:05:54 zakim, ??P3 is me 14:05:54 +fjh; got it 14:06:12 fjh: thanks AnssiK, mounir 14:06:16 NFC WG chartering : http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2012May/0046.html 14:06:26 zakim, niklas is me 14:06:26 +nwidell; got it 14:06:29 ... that's a message from dsr about NFC WG chartering 14:06:40 Clarke has joined #dap 14:06:43 dsr: darobin and I have been working on System Level APIs charter 14:06:53 ... we hope to have both charters up for review at the same time 14:07:04 ... we need to fill in some dates in them to complete them 14:07:07 system level charter for email, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2012Apr/0053.html 14:07:14 fjh: do you have a deadline for them? 14:07:19 dsr: we'd like to get them done ASAP 14:07:31 fjh: I noticed NFC was mentioned in the System Level API 14:07:34 +??P24 14:07:36 ... i'm not sure that's appropriate 14:07:43 dsr: AC review is a good way to get feedback 14:07:48 zakim, ??P24 is me 14:07:48 +Clarke; got it 14:07:51 DAP Welcome to new members 14:07:51 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2012May/0000.html 14:07:52 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2012May/0040.html 14:07:54 ... [ it can be removed then ] 14:08:09 fjh: if you're new and want to introduce yourself, now is a good time 14:08:19 ... but please also introduce yourselves on the list 14:08:23 zakim, who is here? 14:08:23 On the phone I see Josh_Soref, Deep (muted), samarth (muted), milan, Jungkee, Josh_Soref.a (muted), AnssiK, nwidell, dtran (muted), Dsr, Cathy, dcheng3, bryan, Claes, fjh, Clarke 14:08:27 On IRC I see Clarke, Claes, nwidell, Sylvain_lalande, Cathy, AnssiK, dcheng3, Jungkee, dsr, dtran, MilanPatel, Deep, mparaz, RRSAgent, fjh, samarth, richt, trackbot, mounir, 14:08:27 ... lgombos, rektide, ilkka, Zakim, hiroto_away, Josh_Soref, dom 14:08:28 Zakim, mute me 14:08:29 Josh_Soref should now be muted 14:08:45 Topic: Minutes Approval 14:08:48 Approve minutes from 25 April 14:08:48 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2012Apr/att-0048/minutes-2012-04-25.html 14:08:59 RESOLUTION: minutes from 25 April are approved 14:09:04 Topic: F2F Planning 14:09:10 fjh: we have agreed for July 10-12 14:09:16 ... we have offers from Nokia, Burlington 14:09:16 Next F2F 10-12 July 2012. 14:09:17 Hosting offers (1) Burlington MA US (Nokia), (2) Dusseldorf, Germany (Vodafone) 14:09:31 ... and Vodafone, Dusseldorf, Germany 14:09:38 ... I think we need to decide this week 14:09:48 Josh_Soref: I was hoping we'd have a decision today :) 14:09:50 + +34.91.483.aagg 14:10:20 efullea has joined #dap 14:10:23 XX: being in Europe, I have a preference for Europe 14:10:35 Cathy: I'll note that TPAC is in Europe as well 14:10:44 ... so it might be better to do it in US 14:10:56 fjh: We could do a survey 14:11:01 ... darobin is ok either way 14:11:11 dsr: unless you hear strong objections 14:11:13 ... it's up to you 14:11:21 fjh: proposed resolution to meet in burlington 14:11:27 nwidell: I'd prefer to have it in Europe 14:11:36 ... it's the middle of vacations in Scandinavia 14:11:44 ... so it's easier to get to 14:11:55 fjh: I think it'll be easier for some to get to Burlington 14:12:29 RESOLUTION: F2F meeting July 10-12 in Burlington 14:12:34 fjh: thanks dsr 14:12:36 ... sorry nwidell 14:12:39 ... i understand your concern 14:12:47 Topic: Sensors, Device, Light, Proximity 14:12:53 fjh: AnssiK, i know you put together a draft 14:12:56 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2012May/0041.html 14:12:59 ... i know wonsuk updated his draft 14:13:03 ... talking about proximity 14:13:14 I have updated the Sensor API also 14:13:15 ... i noticed it's essentially the same as XZ 14:13:24 ... your draft seems more detailed than wonsuk 14:13:30 ... i don't understand min/max 14:13:37 ... it seems like it'd be constant for a sensor 14:13:37 q+ 14:13:47 q? 14:13:49 dtran: i was editing sensor api for a while 14:13:59 ... i updated the api to have the same signature as dougt suggested 14:14:05 zakim, who is making noise? 14:14:10 ... min/max are pretty much constant for all sensors 14:14:18 fjh, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: Jungkee (9%), dtran (100%), Claes (9%) 14:14:20 ... i don't know if we could make them separate attributes 14:14:31 Zakim, mute Jungkee 14:14:31 Jungkee should now be muted 14:14:33 Zakim, mute Clarke 14:14:33 Clarke should now be muted 14:14:35 Zakim, mute Claes 14:14:35 Claes should now be muted 14:14:43 ... now you get the same value every time 14:15:24 q+ to ask about differences between doug's and dzung's API 14:15:25 ... min/max are constant 14:15:38 fjh: min/max are constant for a given sensor, which is what i'd expect 14:15:47 ... i noticed that AnssiK supported separate specs 14:15:57 ... it's also easier for testing and moving specs forward 14:16:01 ... to have separate specs 14:16:15 ... packaging concerns as AnssiK mentioned, we can pull out later 14:16:20 ack Anssi 14:16:22 q+ bryan 14:16:38 dtran: the sensor spec says it's optional to implement sensors 14:16:46 ... it's up to a UA to decide what to implement 14:16:52 ... we could rip them out one by one 14:16:52 q+ 14:17:05 ... i just don't like having lots of specs that look all the same 14:17:07 fjh: i understand 14:17:11 ... but having optional tihngs 14:17:15 s/tihngs/things/ 14:17:53 ... getting interop is harder 14:18:02 ... editorial task of one/two docs can be handled later 14:18:10 ... we need to focus on implementations now 14:18:27 q? 14:18:36 AnssiK: i think fjh has said what i waned to say 14:18:51 ... small self contained features/specs progress on REC track better 14:19:17 ... some things that are common to all sensors 14:19:26 ... it's much easier to work on the right design with one sensor first 14:19:31 ... and then progress with others 14:19:43 ... I think security/privacy considerations should be taken seriously for all sensors 14:20:01 bryan has joined #dap 14:20:01 ... if we work on sensors separately, the likely that security/privacy is properly scrutinized increases 14:20:07 s/waned/wanted/ 14:20:11 ... i'm happy to work with others to make it happen properly 14:20:15 present+ Bryan_Sullivan 14:20:30 ... i want to get other implementers interested 14:20:39 ... an all in one spec may scare away implementers 14:20:45 ... i'd like to ask for an opinion 14:20:52 ... all-in-one, or one-by-one 14:20:56 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2012May/0053.html 14:21:00 ... in my mail, i had my arguments 14:21:07 ack bryan 14:21:07 ... it would be better to reply to my mail on the list 14:21:09 ... thanks 14:21:24 bryan: those are all sensible arguments 14:21:33 ... i had concerns in the past with documentation in multiple specs 14:21:35 + +1.781.534.aahh 14:21:39 ... on technical aspect 14:21:46 ... maybe i can send to the list again 14:21:57 ... does the group think it's not necessary to have trigger points/rate of events? 14:22:09 Present+ Laszlo_Gombos 14:22:10 ... that those things will be discovered by the app in a consistent/interoperable way 14:22:21 ... will it not be a burden to discover trigger point/rate of events? 14:22:34 ... is it good enough to have min/max 14:22:42 ... and the other stuff will be figured out over time 14:22:44 zakim, aahh is lgombos 14:22:44 +lgombos; got it 14:22:48 dtran: that's the problem with dougt's proposal 14:23:04 ... i work with sensors every day 14:23:14 ... and you don't get information about trigger points 14:23:24 bryan: i like the simplicity of the current proposal 14:23:32 ... my preference is 14:23:39 ... ultimately, whatever makes it easiest for implementers 14:23:47 ... we need to take into account that intel is an implementer 14:23:52 s/intel/Intel/ 14:24:01 my point is that to progress a spec we need interop on optional features, so having more in the spec makes it harder to progress 14:24:10 ack dsr 14:24:10 dsr, you wanted to ask about differences between doug's and dzung's API 14:24:13 dtran: i'd suggest you bring it up on the ML 14:24:21 ... there's a thread on the HTML5/WhatWG ML 14:24:29 ... i don't know how we can bring it back 14:24:37 fjh: i think bryan said he'd send an email about this 14:24:43 doug's proximity example: http://dougturner.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/device-proximity-sensor/ and dzung's http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw-file/tip/sensor-api/Overview.html, Anssi's http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw-file/tip/proximity/Overview.html 14:24:51 dsr: there were some differences 14:25:01 ... in dougt's proposal, he used window.eventlistener callback 14:25:06 ... dtran 's is different 14:25:13 ... and AnssiK 's is similar to dougt's 14:25:34 AnssiK: I looked at dougt's implementation and spec'd it out 14:25:40 ... i don't have a position at this point 14:25:54 ... i think it's easier to make progress if i write down what dougt implemented 14:26:05 -Josh_Soref.a 14:26:09 ... and then make progress concurrently wit implementations 14:26:15 makes sense to me 14:26:16 Zakim, who is on the call? 14:26:16 On the phone I see Josh_Soref (muted), Deep (muted), samarth (muted), milan, Jungkee (muted), AnssiK, nwidell, dtran, Dsr, Cathy, dcheng3, bryan, Claes (muted), fjh, Clarke 14:26:19 ... (muted), +34.91.483.aagg (muted), lgombos 14:26:55 AnssiK: i don't know about dtran 's proposal 14:27:11 dtran: previously the sensor spec 14:27:27 ... allowed you to set threshold/weight of the sensor 14:27:30 ... to report back to you 14:27:43 ... i also updated my spec to be like dougt's 14:27:48 Dave: Dzung's spec of May 8th uses different design from Doug and Anssi, which do we want to take further? 14:27:54 s/weight/rate/ 14:27:55 ... i see AnssiK also did a separate spec 14:28:04 ... we can have a discussion with dougt 14:28:13 ... and update it to have features that i had 14:28:20 ... i think that would be the approach 14:28:23 q- 14:28:32 ... i have some ideas how to do that 14:28:37 nwidell: another question 14:28:41 ... the whatwg list 14:28:49 ... noted that if you don't have a sensor, or do have a sensor 14:28:58 ... you shouldn't be able to detect if a sensor is present 14:29:03 dtran: that's sensor discovery 14:29:06 s/nwidell/Dsr/ 14:29:21 q+ 14:29:21 ... the WG decided not to have Sensor Discovery for privacy/fingerprint reasons 14:29:28 ... that's why it was ripped out from the old spec 14:29:35 q? 14:29:40 ack AnssiK 14:29:43 ... we had that discussion many months ago 14:30:04 AnssiK: i took a similar design to the Battery status 14:30:13 ... if the implementation can't report something 14:30:17 ... i report a default value 14:30:37 ... i looked at dougt's code 14:30:44 ... and it assumed that it was always available 14:30:52 ... that was something i added on top of dougt's spec to make it more complete 14:30:58 ... it's something we need to flesh out in the group 14:31:03 ... assuming this proposal is taken 14:31:05 q+ To ask about sensor discovery with web intents 14:31:09 ... i don't have a hidden agenda here 14:31:18 ... i just want to make the web kick ass on devices 14:31:31 Present+ Clarke_Stevens 14:31:33 ... i'm happy to work with others, dougt, and dtran, etc. 14:31:37 ack nwidell 14:31:37 nwidell, you wanted to ask about sensor discovery with web intents 14:31:43 ... i just want to move forward and get the work done 14:31:52 nwidell: we discussed discovery a long time ago 14:31:59 ... some wanted JS and some wanted WebIntents 14:32:10 ... i really liked dougt's proposal which is very simple 14:32:24 ... is there a nice way to tie together WebIntents with this DOM Event based sensor events? 14:32:31 ... i haven't really figured that out 14:33:12 ... can what is returned from WebIntents show up as a DOM Event in the caller? 14:33:18 dsr: that's valuable feedback to the WebIntent ML 14:33:34 ... if you have remote-sensors, we'd like to be able to unify them 14:33:35 q+ 14:33:36 interesting how webintents is considering sso/login as well 14:33:42 ack Josh_Soref 14:34:22 Josh_Soref: I don't think WebIntents can generate events 14:34:29 Josh_Soref: could have wrapper to generate DOM event, currently WebIntents does not do on its own 14:34:40 Zakim, unmute Jungkee 14:34:40 Jungkee should no longer be muted 14:34:46 s/Josh_Soref: I don't think WebIntents can generate events// 14:34:49 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw-file/16185b62381d/gallery/index.html 14:34:51 Zakim, mute me 14:34:51 Josh_Soref should now be muted 14:35:04 i/dvcs/Topic: Gallery/ 14:35:13 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2012May/0041.html 14:35:19 Jungkee: I had feedback from A1, A2, and A3 14:35:32 ... the idea is to use WebIntents to locate galleries 14:35:38 ... and access video/audio + metadata 14:35:42 ... using intents callback 14:36:01 fjh: i think there was some concern about Size on the list 14:36:10 Jungkee: yes, i am now writing sample code 14:36:52 ... i can probably share the demo code somewhere 14:37:19 ... XA was discussed in an email thread 14:37:24 ... i'd like to hear more from members here 14:37:34 ... i can now update with more 14:37:44 ... for which way of data delivery 14:38:01 s/XX:/milan:/ 14:38:24 ... service providers can also 14:38:27 ... interact 14:38:28 xx was me 14:38:39 s/xx was me// 14:39:01 fjh: will you send out an email about this with a summary 14:39:05 Jungkee: for sure 14:39:35 fjh: thank you very much 14:39:55 Topic: SLAPI 14:40:00 fjh: i don't think we need to talk about this 14:40:02 Updated draft, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2012May/0003.html 14:40:02 Move to Notification WG - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2012May/0024.html 14:40:03 Topic: Feature Permissions 14:40:10 s/Topic: Feature Permissions// 14:40:19 i/draft/Topic: Feature Permissions/ 14:40:29 fjh: I don't think anything needs to be done 14:40:38 ... lgombos, maybe you can follow up with the Notification WG 14:40:42 Zakim, who is making noise? 14:40:44 q+ 14:40:50 ack AnssiK 14:40:53 Josh_Soref, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: fjh (14%), Jungkee (20%), AnssiK (45%) 14:41:04 Topic: Proximity 14:41:07 Zakim mute Jungkee 14:41:14 Zakim, mute Jungkee 14:41:14 Jungkee should now be muted 14:41:22 s/Zakim mute Jungkee/ 14:41:29