16:04:49 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-wg
16:04:49 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/05/04-html-wg-irc
16:05:04 <timeless> trackbot, start meeting
16:05:06 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:05:06 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-wg
16:05:08 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be html_wg
16:05:08 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start 5 minutes ago
16:05:09 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
16:05:09 <trackbot> Date: 04 May 2012
16:05:32 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:05:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/04-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
16:06:40 <paulc2> zakim, what is the code?
16:06:40 <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), paulc2
16:08:29 <MikeSmith> Zakim, list
16:08:29 <Zakim> I see Team_(multimodal)16:00Z, Team_(DOCS)11:00AM, W3C_DOCS(Branding)12:00PM, XML_SchemaWG()11:00AM active
16:08:31 <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are HTML_WG()12:00PM, Team_(PUBL)12:00PM
16:08:36 <yosuke> yosuke has joined #html-wg
16:08:49 <yosuke> Present+ Yosuke_Funahashi
16:08:58 <timeless> present+ Josh_Soref
16:09:07 <MikeSmith> Zakim, this will be 26631
16:09:07 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, MikeSmith
16:09:15 <janina> janina has joined #html-wg
16:11:13 <magnus> magnus has joined #html-wg
16:11:39 <odinho> present+ Odin_Horthe_Omdal
16:11:44 <adrianba> adrianba has joined #html-wg
16:11:51 <magnus> Present+ Magnus_Olsson
16:11:54 <shan> Present+ Soonbo_Han
16:11:56 <timeless> Zakim, nick timeless is Josh_Soref
16:11:56 <Zakim> sorry, timeless, I do not see a party named 'Josh_Soref'
16:12:01 <ddorwin> ddorwin has joined #html-wg
16:12:06 <joesteele> joesteele has joined #html-wg
16:12:18 <JF> Present+ JF
16:13:14 <johnsim> johnsim has joined #html-wg
16:13:45 <BobLund> BobLund has joined #html-wg
16:13:51 <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
16:13:53 <Zakim> +F2F
16:14:06 <glenn> +Present Glenn_Adams_(glenn)
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16:14:08 <Zakim> +Josh_Soref; got it
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16:14:14 <Zakim> +MikeSmith; got it
16:14:17 <Zakim> + +1.858.677.aaaa
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16:14:18 <Zakim> + +1.858.677.aaaa
16:14:26 <timeless> Zakim, paulc has entered F2F 
16:14:26 <Zakim> +paulc; got it
16:14:30 <timeless> Zakim, JF has entered F2F 
16:14:30 <Zakim> +JF; got it
16:14:39 <timeless> Zakim, janina has entered F2F 
16:14:39 <Zakim> +janina; got it
16:14:43 <timeless> Zakim, bryan has entered F2F 
16:14:43 <Zakim> +bryan; got it
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16:14:48 <Zakim> +sam; got it
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16:14:57 <timeless> Zakim, Arno_ has entered F2F 
16:14:57 <Zakim> +Arno_; got it
16:15:13 <timeless> Zakim, glenn has entered F2F 
16:15:13 <Zakim> +glenn; got it
16:15:13 <Arno_> present+ Arnaud_Braud
16:15:19 <rubys> rubys has joined #html-wg
16:15:20 <paulc> paulc has joined #html-wg
16:15:26 <timeless> Zakim, nick Arno_ is Arnaud_Braud
16:15:26 <Zakim> sorry, timeless, I do not see a party named 'Arnaud_Braud'
16:15:33 <timeless> Zakim, Arno_ is Arnaud_Braud
16:15:33 <Zakim> sorry, timeless, I do not recognize a party named 'Arno_'
16:15:41 <timeless> Zakim, Arno_ has left F2F
16:15:41 <Zakim> -Arno_; got it
16:16:02 <timeless> Zakim, Arnaud_Braud has entered F2F
16:16:02 <Zakim> +Arnaud_Braud; got it
16:16:07 <timeless> Zakim, who is here?
16:16:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see F2F, +1.858.677.aaaa
16:16:09 <Zakim> F2F has Josh_Soref, MikeSmith, paulc, JF, janina, bryan, sam, glenn, Arnaud_Braud
16:16:09 <Zakim> On IRC I see paulc, rubys, Arno_, BobLund, johnsim, joesteele, ddorwin, adrianba, magnus, janina, yosuke, Zakim, RRSAgent, anne, shan, acolwell, JF, hiroki, glenn, icaaq,
16:16:09 <Zakim> ... MikeSmith, plh, shepazu, mattur, davidb, miketaylr, johndrinkwater, Lachy, logbot, jgraham, paulc2, timeless, odinho, gavin, jmb, Philip, arronei, danielfilho, Dashiva,
16:16:14 <Zakim> ... hiro_away, heycam|away, trackbot, krijnh, decadance, ed, Jedi, lgombos, rektide, paul_irish, hober, [tm], gsnedders, pingo, hsivonen, Hixie, inimino, CIA-1
16:16:34 <paulc> presentzajkim, Paul_Cotton has entered F2F
16:16:37 <laura> laura has joined #html-wg
16:16:48 <paulc> zakim, Paul_Cotton has entered F2F
16:16:48 <Zakim> +Paul_Cotton; got it
16:16:49 <timeless> s/presentzajkim, Paul_Cotton has entered F2F//
16:16:58 <timeless> Zakim, paulc has left F2F
16:16:58 <Zakim> -paulc; got it
16:17:05 <timeless> Zakim, nick paulc is Paul_Cotton
16:17:05 <Zakim> sorry, timeless, I do not see a party named 'Paul_Cotton'
16:17:38 <adrianba> Present+ Adrian_Bateman
16:17:53 <frankolivier> frankolivier has joined #html-wg
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16:18:00 <Zakim> sorry, timeless, I do not recognize a party named 'Adrian_Bateman'
16:18:04 <ddorwin> Present+ David_Dorwin
16:18:08 <timeless> Zakim, Adrian_Bateman has entered F2F
16:18:08 <Zakim> +Adrian_Bateman; got it
16:18:31 <Russell_Berkoff> Russell_Berkoff has joined #html-wg
16:18:44 <Russell_Berkoff> Present+ Russell_Berkoff(Samsung)
16:19:04 <timeless> Zakim, Russell_Berkoff has entered F2F
16:19:04 <Zakim> +Russell_Berkoff; got it
16:20:09 <timeless> Zakim, aaaa is Peter_Peterka
16:20:09 <Zakim> +Peter_Peterka; got it
16:20:16 <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
16:20:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see F2F, Peter_Peterka
16:20:17 <Zakim> F2F has Josh_Soref, MikeSmith, JF, janina, bryan, sam, glenn, Arnaud_Braud, Paul_Cotton, Adrian_Bateman, Russell_Berkoff
16:20:40 <timeless> Zakim, Odin_Horthe_Omdal has entered F2F
16:20:40 <Zakim> +Odin_Horthe_Omdal; got it
16:21:09 <timeless> Topic: Introduction
16:21:16 <timeless> paulc: This is the agenda for today
16:21:21 <timeless> ... we lost the whiteboard
16:21:26 <timeless> ... we said we'd do the two media topics
16:21:31 <timeless> ... and a CfC
16:21:39 <timeless> ... after coffee, we'd do charter for V.next
16:21:49 <timeless> ... after lunch is open issues (ISSUE-204) and test suite
16:21:54 <timeless> ... chairs did a discussion last night
16:22:04 <timeless> ... and noted that while we don't have all the proponents of 204
16:22:11 <timeless> ... whether it'd be worth discussing it
16:22:18 <timeless> ... we have one proposal from cynthia
16:22:34 <timeless> ... and one from sicking and "Matthew"
16:22:42 <timeless> ... do we expect cynthia to be here today?
16:22:47 <timeless> janina: we expect her today
16:23:01 <timeless> paulc: we'd need someone to speak to sicking's side of the issue
16:23:08 <timeless> ... i don't know if hober could look at sicking's proposal
16:23:10 <timeless> ... at lunch
16:23:16 <timeless> ... and be an animateur of sicking
16:23:24 <timeless> ... after our successful use of F2F discussion yesterday
16:23:26 <odinho> ISSUE-204?
16:23:26 <trackbot> ISSUE-204 -- Exempt ARIA attributes from the rule that prohibits reference to hidden elements -- open
16:23:26 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/204
16:23:37 <timeless> ... the chairs realized maybe we should tackle ISSUE-204 while we're here
16:23:47 <timeless> ... we're open to discussion of other issues if people want to give us an ISSUE- number
16:23:58 <timeless> ... we can also look at a page sam has that gives us a table
16:24:06 <timeless> ... it might be useful for the WG to actually review that
16:24:15 <timeless> ... these are topics we failed to cover yesterday
16:24:28 <timeless> ... we discussed stabalization and had a bullet item for a CG
16:24:37 <timeless> ... the other was a decision to defer ISSUE-184
16:24:44 <timeless> ... we can do it under "Open Issues"
16:24:57 <timeless> ... my notes indicate we, the chairs, could defer it
16:25:02 <timeless> ... got everything, scribe?
16:25:06 <timeless> [ scribe nods ]
16:25:13 <odinho> ISSUE-184?
16:25:13 <trackbot> ISSUE-184 -- Add a data element -- open
16:25:13 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/184
16:25:16 <timeless> Topic: Media Proposals
16:25:24 <timeless> paulc: which proposal do we want to do first?
16:25:27 <timeless> ... Encrypted
16:25:34 <timeless> ... there was a suggestion to do Media Source first
16:25:42 <timeless> ... do we have someone to walk us through
16:25:46 <Petr> Petr has joined #html-wg
16:26:04 <acolwell> colwell
16:26:06 <timeless> paulc: plh, welcome
16:26:17 <timeless> Zakim, plh has entered F2F
16:26:17 <Zakim> +plh; got it
16:26:26 <timeless> Zakim, Aaron_Colwell has entered F2F
16:26:26 <Zakim> +Aaron_Colwell; got it
16:26:46 <timeless> Zakim, frankolivier has entered F2F
16:26:46 <Zakim> +frankolivier; got it
16:26:55 <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
16:26:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see F2F, Peter_Peterka
16:26:56 <Zakim> F2F has Josh_Soref, MikeSmith, JF, janina, bryan, sam, glenn, Arnaud_Braud, Paul_Cotton, Adrian_Bateman, Russell_Berkoff, Odin_Horthe_Omdal, plh, Aaron_Colwell, frankolivier
16:27:04 <tpod> tpod has joined #html-wg
16:27:07 <timeless> Zakim, anne has entered F2F
16:27:07 <Zakim> +anne; got it
16:27:13 <bryan> bryan has joined #html-wg
16:27:16 <timeless> aaron_colwell: should I project?
16:27:20 <timeless> paulc: yes
16:27:36 <timeless> [ Technical break ]
16:27:46 <acolwell> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html
16:27:49 <timeless> Zakim, hober has entered F2F
16:27:49 <Zakim> +hober; got it
16:27:55 <bryan> present+ Bryan_Sullivan
16:28:02 <Petr> are any presentations available online?
16:28:04 <timeless> s/aaron_colwell:/acolwell:/
16:28:17 <timeless> acolwell: its main purpose is to allow JS to create a presentation
16:28:27 <chaals> chaals has joined #html-wg
16:28:48 <timeless> s|http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html|-> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html Media Source specification|
16:28:55 <timeless> acolwell: the spec is split into parts
16:28:58 <plh> Petr, the document itself is being displayed in the room
16:29:00 <timeless> ... the html media element
16:29:09 <timeless> ... append data to the tag
16:29:15 <timeless> ... examples of supporting different formats
16:29:24 <timeless> ... we have a byte-stream format for WebM and ISO based media format
16:29:34 <timeless> ... and there's a way to add streams of your choice, like ogg
16:29:42 <timeless> ... this picture describes how to think about it
16:29:52 <timeless> ... the media element is a model of
16:30:05 <timeless> [ acolwell points to part of the picture ]
16:30:24 <timeless> acolwell: it introduces the concept of the elemnt
16:30:28 <timeless> s/elemnt/element/
16:30:31 <timeless> ... and a source buffer
16:30:38 <timeless> ... and the Media Engine will pull stuff out of the source buffer
16:30:44 <timeless> ... and this is associated with splicing behavior
16:30:52 <timeless> ... especially for elements close to the current playback time
16:30:54 <Zakim> -Peter_Peterka
16:30:56 <timeless> ... questions?
16:31:00 <timeless> [ None ]
16:31:05 <timeless> acolwell: this is the theoretical model
16:31:11 <timeless> ... to agree on what the media engine looks like
16:31:35 <timeless> ... this covers Splicing
16:31:38 <timeless> ... Media Segments
16:31:44 <timeless> ... to start you give it a media segment
16:31:54 <Wonsuk> Wonsuk has joined #html-wg
16:31:54 <timeless> s/a media/an initialization/
16:31:58 <timeless> ... and then you do appending
16:32:05 <timeless> Zakim, Wonsuk has entered F2F
16:32:05 <Zakim> +Wonsuk; got it
16:32:05 <Wonsuk> Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
16:32:20 <timeless> ... multiple implementations can append over an area
16:32:32 <timeless> ... how does the media engine decide to take that in
16:32:55 <timeless> ... here is how the api looks
16:33:08 <timeless> ... you can use a single source id and use multiplexed
16:33:13 <timeless> ... and then switch on things
16:33:38 <timeless> ... Activating the "media source mode" on the html media element
16:33:45 <timeless> ... currently you assign the mode to the media source elemnt
16:33:48 <timeless> s/elemnt/element/
16:33:53 <timeless> ... and that's what causes it to be active
16:33:57 <timeless> ... there's an open issue on that
16:34:04 <timeless> ... for instance integrating with the <source> tag
16:34:12 <timeless> ... currently the only way to activate this mode is with JS
16:34:19 <timeless> ... there's add/remove-id
16:34:25 <timeless> ... to create/destroy media buffers
16:34:36 <timeless> ... so you can create a new source buffer during the presentation
16:34:52 <timeless> ... the sourceBuffered property allows you to see what the browser is holding
16:35:05 <timeless> ... so a js app can understand what the browser has
16:35:10 <timeless> ... so it can decide what to append next
16:35:32 <timeless> ... currently there's sourceAppend() which takes a Uint8Array (of bytes)
16:35:37 <timeless> ... this is how you get media data in
16:35:42 <timeless> ... sourceAbort() is a way to
16:35:51 <timeless> ... we have Segments, initialization segments, media segments
16:35:56 <timeless> ... if someone requests a seek
16:36:00 <timeless> ... you may want to abort
16:36:14 <timeless> ... and start appending a segment for the new seek point
16:36:27 <timeless> ... sourceEndOfStream() to signal you're done with the presentation
16:36:36 <timeless> ... and provides a way for JS app to signal other types of errors
16:36:47 <timeless> ... Network Errors, Decode Errors, ...
16:37:04 <timeless> joesteele: is the network error
16:37:09 <timeless> ... only an I'm out of data error
16:37:10 <glenn> q+
16:37:33 <timeless> acolwell: the intent is to single the same errors as you would normally
16:37:34 <vimeo_joe> vimeo_joe has joined #html-wg
16:37:42 <timeless> ... so an XHR error could trigger end of stream
16:38:09 <timeless> s/single/signal/
16:38:16 <timeless> ... a common one is to signal network errors/...
16:38:25 <timeless> ... this is a way to route an error code from the JS app running the API
16:38:31 <timeless> ... to the player's hooks for error handling
16:38:38 <timeless> ... sourceState keeps track of state
16:38:46 <timeless> ... SOURCE_CLOSED/...
16:38:58 <timeless> ... when you activate it, it changes to SOURCE_OPEN
16:39:08 <timeless> .. and sourceEndOfStream() switches to SOURCE_ENDED
16:39:14 <timeless> s/.. and/... and/
16:39:29 <timeless> ... and then a seek could switch back to SOURCE_OPEN
16:39:30 <plh> the WebIDL in the spec needs a refresh btw. doesn't match latest WebIDL spec
16:39:39 <timeless> glenn: i noticed you added this to HTMLMediaElement
16:39:48 <timeless> acolwell: implementationwise
16:39:51 <anne> plh: looks like WebKit IDL
16:39:53 <timeless> ... it made side,
16:40:01 <timeless> ... things are closely tied to the <media> element
16:40:07 <timeless> glenn: could you add it to MediaController?
16:40:19 <timeless> acolwell: it'd be kind of confusing, since that's tied to multiple tags
16:40:24 <timeless> ... what would that mean?
16:40:35 <timeless> ... i could understand it if you had it on multiple tags
16:40:42 <timeless> ... think of this as "having a url"
16:40:45 <timeless> ... and JS is the source
16:40:58 <timeless> glenn: for things ...
16:41:08 <timeless> acolwell: there's an open question about making this a separate object
16:41:13 <timeless> ... relating to sourceURL
16:41:14 <dveditz> dveditz has joined #html-wg
16:41:22 <timeless> ... say you attach it to the <media> element
16:41:28 <timeless> ... as with WebRTC
16:41:31 <timeless> ... for this interface
16:41:36 <timeless> ... with a special media-source-url
16:41:40 <timeless> ... i could have on-source-open
16:41:43 <timeless> ... on-source-closed
16:41:46 <timeless> ... on-source-buffered
16:41:59 <timeless> ... i wouldn't need extra stuff to hook this up
16:42:06 <timeless> ... but that's an open item
16:42:15 <timeless> glenn: is a declarative interface wanted?
16:42:22 <timeless> acolwell: i need to define that as an open issue
16:42:33 <timeless> ... you could define this and then non-adaptive as fallback
16:42:37 <timeless> glenn: events...
16:42:41 <timeless> ... i didn't see functions
16:42:43 <adrianba> Events -> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html#event-summary
16:42:45 <timeless> acolwell: they aren't declared here
16:43:01 <timeless> s|Events -> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html#event-summary|-> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html#event-summary Events|
16:43:27 <timeless> acolwell: when I was working on this for Chrome
16:43:30 <timeless> ... yeah i need to add this
16:43:47 <timeless> paulc: do the authors of this proposal have a place tracking open issues?
16:43:48 <timeless> adrianba: not yet
16:43:56 <timeless> ... we talked to MikeSmith about that this morning
16:44:03 <timeless> paulc: having a bugzilla component would be the easiest way
16:44:12 <timeless> adrianba: we have for the other proposal a bugzilla component
16:44:17 <timeless> ... and bugs filed
16:44:26 <timeless> ... today, we have issues highlighted in the document
16:44:35 <timeless> paulc: is your general plan to get a bugzilla component
16:44:43 <timeless> ... and transfer them
16:44:45 <mark> mark has joined #html-wg
16:44:50 <timeless> ... and is what glenn identified a new item?
16:44:52 <timeless> acolwell: yes
16:44:57 <timeless> ... i'll look at the transcript
16:45:08 <MikeSmith> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=HTML%20WG&component=Media%20Source%20Extensions Media Source Extensions bugzilla component
16:45:11 <timeless> Josh_Soref: the transcript is incomplete
16:45:15 <timeless> ... glenn will need to help out
16:45:22 <timeless> paulc: there's a goal of creating components
16:45:24 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:45:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
16:45:28 <timeless> ... and moving things in ASAP
16:45:42 <timeless> ... and the item glenn raised on callbacks would be moved there
16:45:46 <timeless> acolwell: any other questions?
16:45:49 <timeless> [ None ]
16:46:03 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:46:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
16:46:15 <adrianba> Byte Stream Formats -> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html#byte-stream-formats
16:46:18 <timeless> acolwell: Byte Stream formats
16:46:31 <timeless> s|Byte Stream Formats -> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html#byte-stream-formats|-> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html#byte-stream-formats Byte Stream Formats|
16:46:52 <timeless> ... so you can take your format (ISO, WebM, ...) to the bytestream
16:46:56 <timeless> ... and to make it concrete
16:47:07 <timeless> ... we've described how WebM maps to the bytestream
16:47:18 <timeless> ... what elements that could appear in the stream that you can ignore
16:47:32 <timeless> ... certain elements needed in WebM aren't needed in <media>source
16:47:37 <timeless> ... we've done the same thing for ISO
16:47:50 <timeless> ... the intent is to describe stuff enough to implement DASH using MPEG fragment files
16:48:01 <timeless> ... in both cases, the spec isn't saying you should support them
16:48:13 <timeless> ... it's saying "if you do it", "you should do it this way" for interop
16:48:24 <timeless> adrianba: we tried to make the introduction descriptive enough
16:48:31 <timeless> ... so you could walk up with a new media format
16:48:36 <timeless> ... and just make it work
16:48:47 <timeless> ... but at the same time, we wanted to avoid
16:48:51 <timeless> ... for common formats
16:48:58 <timeless> ... that you don't have multiple slightly different versions
16:49:10 <timeless> ... because people just took the description and applied it slightly differently in each impl
16:49:17 <timeless> ... that's why we mixed them together
16:49:38 <timeless> ... the specific examples are (non-)normative / not-required
16:49:49 <timeless> acolwell: the bytestream sort of touches with Encrypted stuff
16:49:55 <tantek> tantek has joined #html-wg
16:50:02 <timeless> ... we need definitions for initialization and intermediate sections
16:50:07 <timeless> ... while they don't depend on eachother
16:50:19 <timeless> ... they need to cover the Encryption use cases
16:50:26 <timeless> ... there's a need for them to interoperate
16:50:33 <timeless> s/each impl/each implementation/
16:50:53 <glenn> q?
16:50:57 <glenn> ack
16:50:58 <adrianba> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html#open-issues Open issues
16:51:01 <glenn> q?
16:51:04 <glenn> ack glenn
16:51:07 <timeless> acolwell: there's a buffer, and there's no limit on how much you can append into the browser
16:51:17 <timeless> s|http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html#open-issues Open issues|-> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html#open-issues Open issues|
16:51:30 <timeless> acolwell: there's discussion about having a callback for when you can append more data
16:51:48 <timeless> ... that's because we hadn't decided how to make certain things asynchronous
16:51:56 <timeless> ... another issue is Splicing behavior
16:52:03 <timeless> ... there might be a limit on Buffer count
16:52:14 <timeless> ... or adding buffers midplayback
16:52:25 <timeless> ... there's a mechanism needed to detect constraints on an implementation
16:52:33 <timeless> ... looking at splicing details
16:52:43 <timeless> ... there may be cases where an implementation can't do the splice immediately
16:52:50 <timeless> ... it might need to wait for a keyframe
16:53:03 <timeless> ... and js may need to do something based on the capabilities of the browser
16:53:09 <timeless> ... maybe we'd use mime type parameters
16:53:15 <timeless> ... we might reuse canPlay()
16:53:28 <timeless> ... another is changing sourceAppend to accept urls with byte-range parameters
16:53:35 <timeless> ... some reasons for this
16:53:49 <timeless> ... to avoid pulling bytes from XHR and then push back in
16:54:02 <timeless> ... saving the browser from copying out into a js context and then back down
16:54:09 <timeless> ... to make things more asynchronous
16:54:14 <timeless> ... and to add progress events
16:54:19 <timeless> ... so you could make switching decisions
16:54:29 <timeless> ... it would be useful in an adaptive streaming scenario
16:54:34 <timeless> ... that's an important area to me
16:54:42 <timeless> ... it would allow us to reduce the JS code that we have
16:54:52 <timeless> ... timestamp offset
16:55:03 <timeless> ... i have a bunch of files and need to insert them at a point in the timeline
16:55:09 <timeless> ... the files have internal timestamps of 0
16:55:20 <timeless> ... but i want to map them to another timeline point (2 minutes)
16:55:31 <timeless> ... so you could dynamically append these things in with adjusted timelines
16:55:37 <timeless> ... we think this is useful for ondemand
16:55:41 <timeless> ... and also in live
16:55:44 <timeless> ... timed text
16:55:50 <timeless> ... the spec only discusses audio/video
16:55:57 <timeless> ... but we want to enable timed text as well
16:56:05 <timeless> ... i don't think it'll be too difficult, but we need to look at it
16:56:10 <timeless> ... WebAudio
16:56:19 <timeless> ... WebRTC's MediaStreams
16:56:29 <timeless> ... we need to have discussions about how these proposals work together
16:56:47 <timeless> ... it would be nice to be able to take stuff from <media>stream and do post processing using WebAudio
16:56:56 <timeless> ... or start with <media>source and map that to WebRTC
16:57:08 <timeless> ... we need to see if things are similar enough to make them work
16:57:10 <timeless> ... Tracks
16:57:15 <timeless> ... how to identify them
16:57:28 <timeless> ... using <media>source with a track
16:57:39 <timeless> ... when data appears, you need to know which source buffer to append it
16:57:46 <timeless> ... there are track properties
16:58:03 <timeless> ... Dash manifests specify "kind of language" and "kind of track"
16:58:09 <timeless> ... and we need a way to bubble that up
16:58:16 <timeless> ... they won't be part of the initial append
16:58:23 <timeless> ... that's it
16:58:38 <timeless> glenn: timed text tracks, are you considering it?
16:58:45 <timeless> acolwell: yes, BobLund brought it up
16:58:47 <timeless> glenn: Timing
16:58:52 <timeless> ... is this a HTML.next feature?
16:58:54 <timeless> acolwell: yes
16:59:00 <timeless> ... definitely HTML.next
16:59:05 <timeless> acolwell: I have a demo
16:59:10 <timeless> [ Local Demo ]
16:59:15 <timeless> acolwell: this is an older api
16:59:30 <timeless> ... what you're seeing here are different bitrates in a dash manifest
16:59:39 <timeless> ... JS is downloading chunks via XHR and appending them
16:59:45 <timeless> ... i
17:00:00 <timeless> s/... i/... i'll simulate congestion/
17:00:14 <timeless> ... now it'll switch
17:00:28 <timeless> ... this isn't just a thought experiment
17:00:32 <timeless> ... we actually have this working
17:00:48 <timeless> ... Chrome is planning on getting the proposed version implemented by the end of the Quarter
17:00:53 <odinho> +q
17:00:55 <timeless> ... it should be in Chrome 21 behind a flag
17:00:59 <timeless> s/+q/q+
17:01:07 <timeless> ... what we're really interested in is AppendURL
17:01:18 <acolwell> http://git.chromium.org/gitweb/?p=webm/webm-dash-javascript.git
17:01:40 <timeless> s|http://git.chromium.org/gitweb/?p=webm/webm-dash-javascript.git|-> http://git.chromium.org/gitweb/?p=webm/webm-dash-javascript.git acolwell's Demo|
17:02:02 <timeless> ... we actually had to interleave the audio and video chunks
17:02:08 <timeless> ... in JavaScript
17:02:13 <timeless> ... which is why source id was created
17:02:20 <timeless> ... so you wouldn't have to do crazy media stream parsing in JS
17:02:33 <acolwell> content creation guide: https://sites.google.com/a/webmproject.org/wiki/adaptive-streaming/instructions-to-playback-a-webm-dash-presentation
17:02:57 <timeless> s|content creation guide: https://sites.google.com/a/webmproject.org/wiki/adaptive-streaming/instructions-to-playback-a-webm-dash-presentation|-> https://sites.google.com/a/webmproject.org/wiki/adaptive-streaming/instructions-to-playback-a-webm-dash-presentation Content creation guide|
17:03:01 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:03:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/04-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
17:03:30 <timeless> acolwell: our goal is to make as much of this as possible Open Source
17:03:38 <timeless> ... the benefit is that people can adapt this and modify this
17:03:42 <timeless> ... to their own CDN ...
17:03:54 <timeless> odinho: I would have filed a bug if there was a bugzilla component
17:04:01 <timeless> ... the API is using Numeric constants
17:04:06 <timeless> ... and that's an anti pattern lately
17:04:12 <timeless> ... WebWorkers don't use constants
17:04:23 <timeless> ... IndexedDB changed to string constants
17:04:31 <timeless> acolwell: are there plans to do that with ready state?
17:04:41 <timeless> ... we did it to match enums in media element
17:04:50 <timeless> odinho: it's hard to change when it's already there
17:05:12 <timeless> Josh_Soref: some readyState properties were moving to strings
17:05:16 <timeless> acolwell: i'm fine with it
17:05:34 <timeless> paulc: is there a spec that you can point to
17:05:48 <timeless> ... that says "these specs are inconsistent, but you should use this pattern"
17:06:00 <timeless> hober: at this point, it's mostly folklore
17:06:10 <timeless> anne: i'm not sure we quite decided
17:06:13 <timeless> ... for consistency
17:06:36 <timeless> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webrtc/2012Jan/0038.html
17:06:55 <timeless> Josh_Soref: WebRTC was looking to move to that
17:07:07 <timeless> acolwell: documenting this intent so people creating new apis would know this
17:07:10 <timeless> ... it would be helpful
17:07:44 <timeless> mark_vickers: we are using a lot of adaptive streaming
17:07:48 <timeless> ... there's this dash spec
17:07:55 <timeless> ... which is good because everyone is moving to it
17:08:00 <timeless> ... but it's early days
17:08:08 <timeless> ... but this is better
17:08:17 <timeless> ... since it makes dash soft
17:08:23 <timeless> ... you can adapt something else
17:08:30 <timeless> ... i think this is the right kind of approach
17:08:35 <timeless> acolwell: the feedback we got
17:08:41 <timeless> ... each deployment was different
17:08:55 <timeless> ... "we have multiple CDNs with different cost
17:09:07 <timeless> ... ... and if we're getting bad perf, we want to switch"
17:09:18 <timeless> paulc: tbl said that he wished vendors would bring things less baked
17:09:23 <timeless> ... on a scale of 0 to 1.0
17:09:31 <timeless> ... is this spec 0.5, 0.6, 0.9?
17:09:35 <timeless> ... you've talked about internal issues
17:09:39 <timeless> ... does this handle the scope you wanted?
17:09:48 <timeless> acolwell: even as we're implementing the source buffer model
17:09:54 <timeless> ... we're running into things about splicing
17:10:00 <timeless> ... there will be issues
17:10:07 <timeless> ... and a number of things will be big
17:10:19 <timeless> adrianba: rather than assuming a single dimensional scale
17:10:26 <timeless> ... i'd say, the proposal as it stands today
17:10:34 <timeless> ... is a good encapsulation of the scope
17:10:44 <timeless> ... with the current proposed api+buffer model + open issues
17:10:51 <timeless> ... represents a good scope of functionality
17:10:57 <timeless> ... thinking back to earlier in the week in WebApps
17:11:02 <timeless> ... a good idea for FPWD
17:11:06 <timeless> ... is to be clear on Scope
17:11:10 <timeless> ... for IP exclusions
17:11:21 <timeless> ... "is this the set of IP i'm going to care about?"
17:11:28 <timeless> ... or "are you going to add/remove things?"
17:11:40 <timeless> ... i wouldn't expect we're going to all of a sudden add a new chapter
17:11:50 <timeless> paulc: you're setting the scope that it's extensible by using JS
17:11:55 <timeless> adrianba: the Use of it is extensible
17:12:06 <timeless> paulc: ... rather than being locked into a format
17:12:23 <timeless> mark: this is sufficient to base a commercial service
17:12:29 <timeless> ... it's very well scoped
17:12:37 <timeless> ... the service could be improved
17:12:46 <timeless> ... you could get better with bandwidth estimation
17:13:11 <timeless> s/you're/as mark_vickers said, you're/
17:13:16 <ddorwin> Encrypted Media Extensions - http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html
17:13:47 <odinho> ack me
17:14:23 <timeless> i/aaron_colwell: should I project/Topic: Media Source Extensions/
17:14:23 <mjs> mjs has joined #html-wg
17:14:31 <timeless> Topic: Encrypted Media Extensions
17:14:38 <timeless> s/Topic: Encrypted Media Extensions//
17:14:44 <timeless> i/Encrypted Media Extensions -/Topic: Encrypted Media Extensions/
17:15:04 <timeless> s|Encrypted Media Extensions - http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html|-> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html Encrypted Media Extensions|
17:15:15 <timeless> ddorwin: David Dowin, Google
17:15:21 <timeless> s/Dowin/Dorwin/
17:15:40 <timeless> ... The goal is to let us have commercial content, that's protected, in the HTML5 video tags
17:15:47 <timeless> ... today most of this is a proprietary stack
17:15:53 <timeless> ... where the entire player is involved
17:16:01 <timeless> ... we'd like to have the entire player with html5
17:16:09 <timeless> ... we're looking for the minimal changes
17:16:15 <timeless> ... to accomplish a wide range of UCs
17:16:18 <timeless> ... on how baked is this
17:16:25 <timeless> ... we spent a lot of time going through the UCs
17:16:29 <timeless> ... there are still Open Questions
17:16:32 <timeless> ... and we filed those
17:16:39 <timeless> ... and there are other things we'd like to consider
17:16:59 <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
17:16:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see F2F
17:17:00 <Zakim> F2F has Josh_Soref, MikeSmith, JF, janina, bryan, sam, glenn, Arnaud_Braud, Paul_Cotton, Adrian_Bateman, Russell_Berkoff, Odin_Horthe_Omdal, plh, Aaron_Colwell, frankolivier, anne,
17:17:00 <Zakim> ... hober, Wonsuk
17:17:13 <timeless> ddorwin: start with the overview picture
17:17:17 <timeless> ... download the media
17:17:20 <timeless> ... playback stack
17:17:24 <timeless> ... oh, the application is in control
17:17:25 <adrianba> -> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html#introduction Overview
17:17:36 <timeless> ... we make no assumptions about the CDM having network access
17:17:49 <timeless> ... when encrypted media is seen, it will fire a needkey event
17:18:01 <timeless> ... and it can use canPlayType() to see what's supported
17:18:03 <timeless> ... application picks one
17:18:11 <timeless> ... calls generateKeyRequest() to the CDM
17:18:23 <timeless> ... we defined a term "CDM", - Content Decryption Model
17:18:28 <timeless> ... to separate what's in the W3C spec
17:18:32 <timeless> ... for the Media element
17:18:43 <timeless> ... to something that's possibly platform/hardware specific
17:18:48 <timeless> ... that's behind the scenes
17:18:55 <timeless> ... essentially a request is forwarded to CDM
17:19:02 <timeless> ... send a request to License Server
17:19:06 <timeless> ... and send a key back down
17:19:10 <timeless> ... application uses addKey()
17:19:17 <timeless> ... you can have multiple keys
17:19:32 <timeless> ... the media stack when it detects an encrypted frame
17:19:37 <timeless> ... can ask CDM to decrypt
17:19:47 <timeless> ... that's just one option
17:19:56 <timeless> ... you could support a Secure Media Pipeline
17:20:00 <timeless> adrianba: the way i think about this
17:20:09 <timeless> ... this diagram already represents the conceptual model
17:20:19 <timeless> ... for how to think about which parts are done by Media Stack and which by CDM
17:20:24 <timeless> ... we've had feedback about this on the list
17:20:37 <timeless> ... we're not saying this api requires exposing the decoded frame to another component
17:20:48 <timeless> ... the implementation of how the frame gets to the frame is an implementation detail
17:20:51 <timeless> chaals: in a real system
17:20:57 <timeless> ... instead of frames going back to the media stack
17:21:07 <timeless> ... the CDM will display the frame without passing it back to the browser
17:21:13 <timeless> ... in the current deployed and likely to be deployed stuff
17:21:19 <timeless> ... it won't be pushed back to the browser
17:21:25 <timeless> mark: there is a class of content
17:21:35 <timeless> ... if the browser wants to push it back
17:21:44 <timeless> mark_vickers: another way to look at that
17:21:53 <timeless> ... is to say that the media stack and the content decryption module
17:21:56 <timeless> ... are abstract
17:22:06 <timeless> ... and some parts are handled separately from the browser
17:22:23 <timeless> chaals: one of the things that could happen
17:22:35 <timeless> ... the requirement is "don't expose an unencrypted frame stream"
17:22:38 <plh> q+
17:22:43 <timeless> ... that causes encrypted the content to not happen
17:22:48 <timeless> ... it's up to the platforms that use this
17:22:53 <timeless> ... that could be handled by the browser
17:22:58 <timeless> ... in some agreement
17:23:05 <timeless> ... where the browser will not expose encrypted frames
17:23:12 <timeless> ... or it could be handled by a plugin
17:23:19 <timeless> mark: the Media Stack and CDM could be combined
17:23:25 <timeless> ... and the browser has two playback engines
17:23:33 <timeless> chaals: what do things do today?
17:23:50 <timeless> s/mark:/acolwell:/
17:24:05 <timeless> ... or in stuff you could ship some time this year
17:24:10 <timeless> ... is it all, the CDM will handle everything?
17:24:18 <timeless> ... is there anything you could deploy that would not match that model?
17:24:23 <timeless> joesteele: for Flash
17:24:26 <timeless> ... where we have access to DRM
17:24:33 <timeless> ... it's essentially where you describe
17:24:38 <timeless> ... part of the media stack is all combined
17:24:48 <timeless> ... we're not using the <media> element, it's an <object> tag
17:24:56 <timeless> ... we're not passing bytes back to the JS layer
17:25:03 <timeless> ... you can't modify the bytes
17:25:07 <timeless> ack plh
17:25:22 <timeless> plh: you wouldn't be able to apply CSS transforms to a video?
17:25:35 <timeless> ddorwin: you should in some cases be able to do a transform
17:25:51 <timeless> ... if it comes back to the browser
17:25:55 <timeless> chaals: that won't arrise
17:26:08 <timeless> ... Opera doesn't think that you should not have content protection
17:26:16 <timeless> ... but we should recognize that the limitation we're having
17:26:24 <timeless> ... you won't have the power of the web
17:26:32 <timeless> ... until frames go up into the browser rendering pipeline
17:26:34 <bryan> q+
17:26:43 <timeless> ... or pass the browser into to the media rendering pipeline
17:26:57 <timeless> mark: there's a class of content where it would be ok to pass the content to the browser
17:27:06 <BobLund> BobLund has joined #html-wg
17:27:09 <timeless> ... there's a class of content where it really needs to be handled in the rendering pipeline
17:27:15 <timeless> ... there are hundreds of thousands
17:27:21 <timeless> ... where there's a media pipeline
17:27:27 <timeless> ... that render pipeline is there
17:27:37 <timeless> ... they don't provide browsers the power to do what browsers can do
17:27:47 <timeless> ... maybe you can pick a region of the screen
17:27:57 <timeless> ... there'd be work to do to enable what you have in html
17:28:07 <timeless> adrianba: two comments
17:28:20 <timeless> ... 1. thinking about whether/how we could apply parts of the web platform
17:28:24 <timeless> ... are good requirements to gather
17:28:30 <timeless> ... so we could feedback it into the discussion
17:28:44 <timeless> ... in IE when we're
17:28:46 <rniwa> rniwa has joined #html-wg
17:28:54 <timeless> ... developing these new graphics capabilities
17:29:02 <timeless> ... we're trying to push them down through the stack
17:29:04 <timeless> ... in IE
17:29:11 <timeless> ... one of the things we're doing is pushing those things
17:29:19 <timeless> ... so we can have a secure graphics pipleine
17:29:24 <timeless> s/pipleine/pipeline/
17:29:33 <timeless> ... where you can push transformations down into the hardware
17:29:44 <timeless> ... so it's possible to do this, without removing large parts of the platform
17:29:54 <timeless> chaals: an issue for a company like opera
17:30:01 <timeless> ... is doing that on Windows platform devices is one thing
17:30:08 <timeless> ... doing that on a pile of different platforms is another
17:30:16 <timeless> ... the situation where Flash is defacto
17:30:25 <timeless> ... is great, until you get to a device where flash doesn't actually work
17:30:28 <timeless> ... that's a trick problem
17:30:35 <timeless> ... knowing the kind of distribution
17:30:39 <timeless> ... being aware of the requirement
17:30:45 <timeless> ... to make this feasible on all platforms
17:30:59 <timeless> ... to handle open-WebM decoder
17:31:02 <timeless> ... on the OLPC
17:31:21 <Zakim> + +1.650.576.aabb
17:31:22 <timeless> ... we have an ogg theora decoder, and it can handle a calculator
17:31:22 <Zakim> - +1.650.576.aabb
17:31:22 <Zakim> + +1.650.576.aabb
17:31:32 <timeless> ...being able to put things on a platform is important
17:31:39 <timeless> s/...being/... being/
17:31:50 <timeless> ... mozilla has wondered if they could implement this in practice
17:31:55 <timeless> ... on the one hand, we're their competition
17:31:59 <timeless> ... and we'd like to eat their lunch
17:32:07 <timeless> ... but it's important to us that mozilla can make this work
17:32:16 <timeless> mark_vickers: i believe and others can tell me if i'm wrong
17:32:22 <timeless> ... there are 3 models for how this can be chunked
17:32:28 <timeless> ... 1. all in browser (CDM in browser)
17:32:38 <timeless> ... 2. software talks to external software API
17:32:44 <Zakim> - +1.650.576.aabb
17:32:46 <timeless> ... 3. browser talks to system api
17:32:55 <timeless> ... there could be combinations of those
17:33:05 <timeless> ... a lot of the discussion is about that api
17:33:16 <timeless> ... there's embedded security on chips
17:33:24 <timeless> ... i think system apis will become more common
17:33:31 <timeless> ... in a sense, it will be outside w3c
17:33:39 <timeless> ... on the other hand, maybe it's a joint effort
17:33:54 <timeless> ... in the same way that HTTP is a joint effort with IETF
17:34:00 <timeless> ... maybe the web could drive those apis
17:34:16 <timeless> ... I think we have all the players, both on the CDM and Browser side at W3C
17:34:25 <timeless> ddorwin: there's opportunity to do this outside the W3C
17:34:35 <timeless> ... the major players are represented and outside
17:34:45 <timeless> ... there may be devices without a secure pipeline
17:34:53 <timeless> paulc: i get really nervous when plh starts to pace
17:35:01 <timeless> ... it's one thing to read someone's body language
17:35:12 <timeless> ... it's another when our Domain Lead starts to walk the floor
17:35:19 <timeless> ... an chaals is up too
17:35:31 <timeless> bryan: I understand the idea of pushing the content to be rendered in a protected box
17:35:36 <timeless> ... how do you integrate
17:35:42 <timeless> ... from UCs i see in the doc
17:35:46 <timeless> ... how do I do captions?
17:35:56 <timeless> ... do i have access to this display box?
17:35:59 <timeless> ... can i overlay it?
17:36:03 <timeless> ... are there limitations?
17:36:09 <timeless> ddorwin: i don't know about in band captions
17:36:16 <timeless> ... certainly for just a tracks file
17:36:23 <timeless> bryan: i'm talking about things
17:36:33 <timeless> ... a UC in Web and TV is i can find captions anywhere
17:36:36 <timeless> ... crowd sourced
17:36:47 <timeless> chaals: we'd expect in any of these scenarios
17:36:54 <timeless> ... that has a composite over screen region
17:37:00 <timeless> ... even in the worst possible scenario
17:37:05 <timeless> ... in terms of losing Transforms
17:37:14 <timeless> ... we expect to always be able to add captions
17:37:21 <timeless> ddorwin: the most basic is 2 layers
17:37:27 <timeless> q?
17:37:31 <timeless> ack bryan 
17:37:34 <timeless> adrianba: that's QoI
17:37:39 <Mark_Vickers> q+
17:37:44 <timeless> ... if you have a media pipeline that doesn't allow composition
17:37:47 <timeless> ... that would be a problem
17:37:52 <timeless> ... most services we see today
17:38:02 <timeless> ... support the basic ability to overlay something onto part of a screen
17:38:05 <timeless> ... which is how you'd do captions
17:38:07 <timeless> ack Mark_Vickers 
17:38:14 <timeless> Mark_Vickers: accessibility access in a standard way
17:38:21 <timeless> ... is the number one goal for why we're interested in this
17:38:31 <timeless> ... we've put a lot of effort into making this api open
17:38:39 <timeless> ... we have a standard api for getting embedded caption data
17:38:43 <timeless> ... and standard controls
17:38:52 <timeless> ... the notion is that these standard things would work
17:38:58 <timeless> ... which they do not through a plugin api
17:39:05 <timeless> ... that's the major driving goal
17:39:15 <timeless> ... we'll have to work through all of these cases
17:39:39 <timeless> ddorwin: there may be platforms of hardware with limitations
17:39:43 <timeless> ... and we may need to work through that
17:39:54 <timeless> mark: this is very much an implementation issue
17:40:00 <timeless> ... we're not proposing to specify restrictions
17:40:07 <timeless> ... as far as the spec is concerned, everything is possible
17:40:22 <timeless> ... similar to how OpenGL works
17:40:30 <timeless> mark: application restrictions
17:40:37 <timeless> ... you might want to expose
17:40:47 <timeless> ... but i don't think we'll know that until we get further along the path
17:41:04 <timeless> bryan: does that mean we won't know it's possible to overlay captions until we have implementations
17:41:06 <timeless> adrianba: no
17:41:16 <timeless> ... we're saying there's no reason why this will be a problem
17:41:22 <timeless> ... the spec is designed to allow that
17:41:29 <timeless> ... we know there are implementations that support overlaying captions
17:41:47 <timeless> ... but we don't know how common it will be for implementers to hit restrictions in devices
17:41:56 <timeless> ... if that's a problem, then we need to look at that
17:42:01 <timeless> ... but we don't know that will be a problem
17:42:10 <timeless> chaals: what makes we confident
17:42:18 <timeless> ... is that TV has crap accessibility
17:42:29 <timeless> ... but they've done this quite well with a lot less
17:42:33 <timeless> ... we need to have requirements
17:42:45 <timeless> ... i wanted to pick back up on Mark_Vickers 's point
17:42:49 <timeless> ... on standardizing apis
17:42:54 <JF> Q+
17:42:56 <timeless> ... i think it's valuable to get that convergence
17:43:10 <timeless> ... so when someone wants come along and build a browser that can play video content
17:43:20 <timeless> ... if a significant amount of video content on the web is protected
17:43:23 <timeless> ... then standardizing that is good
17:43:30 <timeless> ... whether that's entirely in W3C or somewhere else
17:43:33 <Mark_Vickers> q+
17:43:43 <timeless> ... we'd like to ensure it's done w/ W3C well in the loop
17:43:53 <timeless> paulc: chaals, you've said it's possible to do it with someone else
17:43:59 <timeless> ... can you enumerate that other side?
17:44:00 <timeless> chaals: no
17:44:09 <timeless> paulc: that's fine
17:44:16 <timeless> chaals: how do you handle signalling
17:44:20 <timeless> ... you have some thing playing
17:44:27 <timeless> ... the browser Open Media Stack
17:44:32 <timeless> ... and browser with Closed Media Stack
17:44:40 <timeless> ... and running your captions through the Open Media Stack
17:44:44 <timeless> ... you need signalling between the two
17:44:50 <timeless> adrianba: you mean for timelines?
17:44:52 <timeless> chaals: yes
17:45:01 <timeless> adrianba: i think timelines work the same way it does generally for the media stak
17:45:04 <timeless> s/stak/stack/
17:45:19 <timeless> ... an advantage of this approach is you still manipulate an element on the page the same way
17:45:26 <timeless> ... events get fired should be the same
17:45:33 <timeless> chaals: i.e. "yes"
17:45:59 <timeless> ddorwin: there's already cases where hardware is decoding/demuxing
17:46:14 <timeless> JF: you were talking about captions as text overlays
17:46:23 <timeless> ... what about supplemental audio?
17:46:26 <timeless> ... same principal?
17:46:30 <timeless> adrianba: yes,
17:46:37 <timeless> joesteele: along the same lines
17:46:50 <timeless> ... if i wanted to do ad insertion, that should work seemlessly with this proposal?
17:46:52 <odinho> ack JF
17:46:53 <timeless> adrianba: right
17:47:10 <timeless> ... we've tried to ensure that the media-source proposal and media-encryption proposal are orthogonal and compatible
17:47:16 <timeless> ... we've tried to ensure you can control the timeline
17:47:25 <timeless> ... as that data gets processed
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17:47:32 <timeless> ... if it's encrypted, the encrypted part needs to fire
17:47:37 <timeless> ... one of the things we need to think through
17:47:41 <timeless> ... and acolwell mentioned
17:47:43 <timeless> ... around segments
17:47:53 <timeless> ... another is understanding where in the pipeline decryption happens
17:48:01 <timeless> ... is this something decryption from a transport
17:48:06 <timeless> ... or when you're about to render it
17:48:10 <timeless> ... there are nuances there
17:48:20 <timeless> ... and i think implementation experience will help
17:48:30 <timeless> acolwell: Media Source says that
17:48:35 <timeless> ... for Text Tracks
17:48:45 <timeless> ... they're implemented in chrome independent of the pipeline
17:48:52 <timeless> ... using CurrentTime
17:48:57 <timeless> ... as long as you have CurrentTime
17:49:00 <timeless> ... you can do it
17:49:05 <timeless> chaals: you're getting CurrentTime out of the stack
17:49:07 <timeless> ... alright
17:49:16 <timeless> ... glenn 's timeline question, this is slated for HTML4.1?
17:49:23 <timeless> mark: encrypted stuff?
17:49:33 <timeless> ... this is high priority for the media stack in chrome
17:49:41 <timeless> ddorwin: we're working on it in webkit
17:49:51 <timeless> ... we know there are open options
17:49:55 <timeless> ... seeking feedback
17:50:01 <timeless> ... talked to DRM providers
17:50:08 <timeless> ... still lots of opportunity for feedback
17:50:11 <timeless> ... this is the first roun
17:50:15 <timeless> s/roun/round/
17:50:18 <timeless> q?
17:50:26 <Mark_Vickers> q-
17:50:35 <timeless> paulc: i want to watch the clock
17:50:43 <timeless> ... we were planning on a coffee break
17:51:11 <timeless> acolwell: as we progress on this
17:51:23 <timeless> ... DRM providers and Content owners will be motivated to integrate with this
17:51:32 <timeless> ... Content providers will leverage against DRM providers
17:51:37 <timeless> ... we don't have to solve that
17:51:41 <timeless> ... Content wants to be on the web
17:51:49 <timeless> adrianba: a scope comment
17:51:52 <timeless> ... similar to media source
17:51:55 <timeless> ... proposal
17:52:12 <timeless> ... we've collaborated on what we think is a good model for enabling encrypted media in the web platform
17:52:20 <timeless> ... as with the other proposal, we've called out open issues
17:52:28 <timeless> ... i think the scope of the proposal is fairly complete
17:52:41 <timeless> ... and is a good indication of what we think needs to be built
17:52:56 <timeless> ... i wanted to point to Mark_Vickers 's email to the list indicating we'd be open to alternative proposals
17:53:00 <timeless> ... but we think this is a good model
17:53:06 <timeless> mark: as acolwell noted
17:53:11 <timeless> ... as a content provider
17:53:21 <timeless> ... we want it to be available everywhere
17:53:26 <timeless> ... while we can't dictate apis to people
17:53:31 <timeless> ... the incentives are there
17:53:38 <timeless> Mark_Vickers: in the past
17:53:42 <timeless> ... the practice was
17:53:48 <timeless> ... content was made available encrypted
17:53:52 <timeless> ... and paired to a single system
17:53:58 <timeless> ... obviously an issue of leverage
17:54:05 <timeless> ... there's a new model innovated by UltraViolet
17:54:13 <timeless> ... they support multiple decryption models, maybe 6-10
17:54:17 <timeless> ... and the service supports multiple
17:54:21 <timeless> ... the client chooses one
17:54:30 <timeless> ... maybe baked into OS
17:54:38 <timeless> ... or based on costs/models
17:54:50 <timeless> ... and that leaves a bit of burden on providers
17:55:00 <timeless> chaals: i hope so
17:55:09 <timeless> ... having seen these things played out
17:55:17 <timeless> ... "in the best possible world, you're right"
17:55:22 <timeless> ... to Mark_Vickers, mark, yeah
17:55:31 <timeless> ... places where i tend to go, it isn't quite as smooth as that
17:55:36 <timeless> ... there are big lumps in how that plays out
17:55:42 <timeless> ... there are real pressures to make it happen
17:55:45 <timeless> ... what i said before
17:55:54 <timeless> ... it's important this stuff is available on the platforms people have
17:56:05 <timeless> ... multiple mechanism ecosystem is important
17:56:09 <timeless> ... if it doesn't work, 
17:56:20 <timeless> Mark_Vickers: UltraViolet is deployed and proven to work in the field
17:56:34 <timeless> adrianba: as we went through
17:56:46 <timeless> ... we tried to make sure this API supports the common encryption model
17:56:54 <timeless> ... the way negotiation works for key sysem
17:56:58 <timeless> s/sysem/system/
17:57:09 <timeless> ... the 3 places key system touches
17:57:13 <timeless> ... media file supports multiple
17:57:17 <timeless> ... UA supports multiple
17:57:23 <timeless> ... UA+media has choice
17:57:27 <timeless> ... JS can decide
17:57:45 <timeless> ... so web app can build in cost preference
17:58:00 <timeless> johnsim: John Simmons, Microsoft
17:58:08 <timeless> ... commenting on UltraViolet, PlayReady
17:58:25 <timeless> ... UltraViolet's mechanism was developed by PlayReady at Microsoft and proposed by them in 2009
17:58:32 <timeless> ... originally they weren't going down that road
17:58:38 <timeless> ... Microsoft + PlayReady team at MS
17:58:49 <timeless> ... sought a stack that supports interoperable encoding/playback
17:58:54 <timeless> ... speaks to our philosophy
17:58:59 <timeless> ... of not creating vertical stack
17:59:08 <timeless> ... but promoting online video and interoperability
17:59:16 <timeless> ... one of the reasons we're Bullish about participating in this
17:59:23 <timeless> ... it's part of our vision of DRM interoperability
17:59:31 <timeless> ... throughout the stack will enable large growt
17:59:35 <timeless> s/growt/growth/
17:59:40 <timeless> ... to address chaals 's concern
17:59:49 <timeless> ... our vision is the interoperability you're talking about
17:59:56 <timeless> chaals: my vision is World Domination for Opera
18:00:04 <timeless> [ Break ]
18:01:23 <jarek> jarek has joined #html-wg
18:05:02 <hkasanuki> hkasanuki has joined #html-wg
18:15:52 <timeless> paulc: we want to wrap up
18:16:00 <timeless> ... and we need to decide how to reconicile
18:16:05 <timeless> ... any remaining questions
18:16:10 <timeless> s/reconicile/reconcile/
18:16:37 <timeless> janina: what we're hearing is good from the accessibility point of view
18:16:45 <timeless> ... accessibility, ability to overlay
18:16:53 <timeless> ... what were flash points in the past
18:16:56 <timeless> ... sound very workable
18:17:06 <timeless> paulc: i know the TF had high level concerns
18:17:17 <timeless> ... but what you're hearing is very positive
18:17:31 <timeless> janina: XX and YY met at TPAC
18:17:35 <timeless> ... and we're pretty satisfied
18:17:57 <timeless> s/XX and YY/Web and TV IG and Protocols and Formats WG/
18:18:05 <timeless> paulc: and you're a cochair of PF?
18:18:12 <timeless> janina: i'm a cochair of PF
18:18:18 <timeless> Mark_Vickers: I'm a cochair of Web and TV
18:18:22 <timeless> ... as is yosuke 
18:18:34 <timeless> Topic: Encrypted Demo
18:18:54 <timeless> ... what's added are 3 methods and
18:18:59 <timeless> ... we've extended canPlayType
18:19:15 <timeless> ... example code ban be this much
18:19:19 <timeless> s/ban/can/
18:19:21 <adrianba> -> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html#extensions Extension APIs
18:19:29 <timeless> ... fairly simple
18:19:35 <timeless> ... for the demo
18:19:45 <timeless> ... an official Chrome build with flags enabled
18:19:45 <adrianba> -> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html#examples Code Examples
18:19:52 <timeless> ... an extension of what acolwell showed
18:20:01 <timeless> ... you try to play an encrypted video
18:20:06 <timeless> [ Error dialog ]
18:20:12 <timeless> ddorwin: same page
18:20:24 <timeless> ... you can see the track element is working in this demo
18:20:29 <timeless> ... and it's adaptive
18:20:41 <timeless> s/... what's/ddorwin: what's/
18:20:51 <timeless> ... what you missed is key needed
18:20:55 <timeless> ... and key exchange
18:21:33 <timeless> plh: you know you, you don't need encryption to see this video
18:21:35 <timeless> [ Laughter ]
18:21:41 <timeless> ddorwin: yes, it's also using ClearKey
18:22:08 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:22:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/04-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
18:22:30 <timeless> Topic: CfC Create Media Task Force
18:22:59 <mark> mark has joined #html-wg
18:23:27 <rubys> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0007.html
18:23:32 <timeless> paulc: i want to point out, when this was sent out, we only had one of these proposals, the second one we did today
18:23:46 <timeless> ... if people want to work on this, but don't want to disrupt this WG
18:23:51 <timeless> ... maybe we should have a TF
18:23:55 <chaals> [clearKey is a demo DRM that you can look inside...]
18:24:07 <timeless> s|http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0007.html|-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0007.html CfC Create Media Task Force|
18:24:21 <timeless> paulc: since the request came out of Web and TV IG
18:24:29 <timeless> ... we wanted to note they had to join this WG
18:24:37 <timeless> ... there's be a new ML
18:24:54 <timeless> ... while we create a TF, decisions are still made by the WG
18:25:06 <ddorwin> -> http://downloads.webmproject.org/adaptive-encrypted-demo/adaptive/dash-player.html Encrypted Adaptive Demo (from previous topic)
18:25:08 <timeless> ... we'll have facilitators, for Accessibility, that's janina, and MikeSmith 
18:25:22 <timeless> ... an initial point of contact
18:25:30 <timeless> ... report back every 2 weeks
18:25:38 <timeless> ... TF could draft scope, initial work plan
18:25:50 <timeless> ... in this case, Encrypted and probably also media source
18:26:00 <timeless> ... feedback we got
18:26:07 <timeless> ... some people didn't like the direction on Encryption
18:26:13 <timeless> ... and some people didn't like the name
18:26:24 <timeless> ... I chose it for the short email: public-html-media@w3.org
18:26:40 <timeless> ... i think we're in an interesting point in the Timeline of the WG
18:26:50 <timeless> ... maybe we just keep these proposals at the WG level
18:26:57 <chaals> q+
18:26:58 <timeless> ... we have bugzilla components for both
18:27:17 <timeless> ... we could morph Thursday meetings from just status on the HTML5 document
18:27:28 <timeless> ... to having discussions about the Media items at the meetings
18:27:34 <timeless> ... i'm open to other suggestions
18:27:40 <timeless> ... we got pushback on CfC
18:27:50 <timeless> ... chairs view it's in our domain on how to go forward
18:27:54 <timeless> ... looking for feedback
18:27:56 <timeless> ack chaals 
18:28:13 <timeless> chaals: i don't think we need another TV+Web IG within HTML WG
18:28:17 <timeless> ... they've done a good job
18:28:23 <timeless> ... we'd like the work done at the level of the WG
18:28:33 <timeless> ... if we get back to the flame storm when this was first presented
18:28:44 <timeless> ... then a TF is probably an administrative necessity to make it work
18:28:48 <timeless> ... that would be unfortunate
18:29:05 <timeless> ... just because you have most of the people
18:29:14 <timeless> ... for encryption and media stream
18:29:21 <timeless> ... shouldn't be that you put them together in a TF
18:29:28 <timeless> ... that would be administration over sense
18:29:35 <timeless> ... TFs should be scoped on tasks
18:29:48 <timeless> ... just because they interact/interrelate are separate
18:29:59 <timeless> Mark_Vickers: i don't want to limit participation
18:30:08 <timeless> ... everything should be above board and visible
18:30:15 <timeless> ... there are people who may want to get involved
18:30:26 <timeless> ... who have media expertise
18:30:33 <timeless> ... who won't have expertise in HTML
18:30:41 <timeless> ... we'll need a F2F on this subject
18:30:47 <timeless> ... w/o causing an HTML WG F2F
18:30:50 <timeless> ... on media source
18:30:55 <timeless> ... it can go either way
18:31:03 <timeless> ... but again, i think there's some in common
18:31:03 <chaals> q+ to say HTML can hold f2f meetings on specific parts of what it is doing... 
18:31:19 <timeless> ... there will be conversations where we'll be talking about both proposals
18:31:25 <timeless> ... no matter how we go
18:31:31 <timeless> adrianba: i agree with what Mark_Vickers said
18:31:39 <timeless> ... i proposed the TF on a WG call
18:31:48 <timeless> ... after we saw the discussion on the encrypted media proposal
18:31:55 <timeless> ... it appeared some people wanted to not work on it
18:32:02 <timeless> ... there are others who wanted to work on this
18:32:10 <timeless> ... but didn't want to contribute on other areas
18:32:18 <timeless> ... i'm not wedded to a TF/no TF
18:32:25 <timeless> ... i'd like to see the work proceed in the WG
18:32:35 <timeless> ... i'd like people to be able to focus on this area
18:32:47 <timeless> ... we want to make sure there's machinery to have discussion on this
18:32:55 <adrianba> q?
18:32:58 <timeless> paulc: we're looking for input on how to process the encrypted media proposal
18:33:02 <tantek> q?
18:33:04 <timeless> ... and the media stream proposals
18:33:17 <timeless> ... chairs are looking for feedback on how to process these two
18:33:23 <timeless> ... looking for as wide as possible
18:33:42 <timeless> tantek: has anyone suggested a CG instead of a TF?
18:33:47 <timeless> ... to be more nimble
18:33:54 <timeless> paulc: no, they submitted it directly to the HTML WG
18:33:58 <timeless> ack chaals 
18:33:58 <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to say HTML can hold f2f meetings on specific parts of what it is doing...
18:34:07 <timeless> chaals: in webapps, we don't have any formal TFs
18:34:16 <timeless> ... but DOM3 events was done on a separate ML
18:34:23 <timeless> ... with their own Teleconfs
18:34:29 <timeless> ... dedicated to DOM3 events
18:34:31 <timeless> ... weekly
18:34:40 <timeless> ... when the WG wasn't having calls at all
18:34:48 <timeless> ... process is what we create when we behave badly
18:35:06 <timeless> ... if we behave sufficiently nicely without having to create formal process
18:35:08 <timeless> ... it's good
18:35:11 <timeless> paulc: alright
18:35:22 <timeless> ... to be transparent, chairs had dinner last night
18:35:30 <timeless> ... do you want to know what we had or what we talked about?
18:35:32 <timeless> [ Laughter ]
18:35:44 <timeless> paulc: mjs took us to a place that was a favorite dinnertime spot in the Netscape days
18:35:49 <timeless> ... in true browser tradition
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18:35:55 <timeless> ... La Fiesta, we went back to our roots
18:36:01 <timeless> ... chairs agree whole-heartedly
18:36:16 <timeless> ... wanting to change the culture and mode/mood
18:36:25 <timeless> ... and we want to encourage exactly that on those items
18:36:40 <timeless> ... i was going to ask chaals if you had an opinion on a separate ML
18:36:45 <timeless> ... other opinions here?
18:36:50 <timeless> ... a. in WG
18:36:58 <timeless> ... b. in WG w/ separate meetings/F2F
18:37:13 <timeless> ... ironic because Cochairs+plh were talking about more regular F2F meetings
18:37:19 <timeless> ... possibly a meeting between now and TPAC
18:37:39 <timeless> ... plh + paulc: took the suggestion from chaals and myself
18:37:50 <timeless> ... the hoops we had to go through to find meeting space were difficult
18:38:03 <timeless> ... six months in advance is easy, 3 months is quite difficult
18:38:12 <timeless> ... c. separate email list
18:38:17 <timeless> ... d. separate telconf
18:38:22 <timeless> ... we have bugzilla components
18:38:29 <timeless> ... WG members could opt in
18:38:42 <timeless> ... principal: they're WG meetings, anyone from outside
18:38:48 <timeless> ... Josh_Soref is an observer
18:39:10 <timeless> Josh_Soref: I stopped scribing Web and TV because i couldn't call in w/o being a member
18:39:18 <timeless> janina: Mark_Vickers mentioned
18:39:27 <timeless> ... some people would be coming w/ expertise not based on processing markup
18:39:42 <timeless> paulc: chairs always have the scope to bring in experts to bleed ideas/items off
18:39:55 <timeless> ... the place we have to be careful is when people make contributions from a WG perspective
18:39:57 <cyns> cyns has joined #html-wg
18:40:08 <timeless> ... if we have this dialog, we'd want to make sure existing issues, raised points
18:40:13 <timeless> ... if we'd want to invite experts
18:40:19 <timeless> ... on other options of feasibility
18:40:30 <timeless> Mark_Vickers: I wasn't suggesting invited experts/non members
18:40:33 <timeless> ... people should be members
18:40:42 <timeless> ... WG or TF, there should be clear meeting times
18:40:49 <timeless> ... so people with interest in these areas
18:41:11 <timeless> ... could only spend time on this
18:41:17 <timeless> chaals: +1 on "these people should be members"
18:41:28 <timeless> paulc: always useful to have the club decide whether it wants to have guests
18:41:33 <timeless> ... or force people to join the club
18:41:42 <timeless> ... taking silence as affirmation
18:41:47 <timeless> ... we should look to create a ML
18:41:58 <timeless> Mark_Vickers: separate ML
18:42:05 <timeless> JF: as an accessibility TF
18:42:15 <timeless> ... we have a public-html-a11y@
18:42:19 <timeless> ... that's worked for us
18:42:30 <timeless> BobLund: +1
18:42:35 <timeless> joesteele: clarification
18:42:40 <timeless> ... I agree a separate ML
18:42:45 <timeless> ... it would still be public
18:42:46 <chaals> s/+1 on "these/+1 - noting particularly the "these/
18:43:11 <timeless> ... we switched away from prefix: www-*@ to public-*
18:43:18 <timeless> s/... we/paulc: we/
18:43:24 <timeless> anne: "This discussion"
18:43:37 <timeless> paulc: we were talking about Encrypted Media and Media Sources
18:44:08 <timeless> ... and topical F2F meeting
18:44:15 <timeless> ... where we could make progress
18:44:23 <timeless> ... if we tried to schedule a F2F in Aug or Sep
18:44:32 <timeless> ... would people be interested in trying to advance the work
18:44:36 <joesteele> +1
18:44:47 <timeless> chaals: we don't really like the blending of all the media stuff as one thing
18:44:52 <timeless> ... separate audiences
18:44:57 <timeless> ... we can live with separate lists
18:45:02 <timeless> ... we can live with separate meetings
18:45:08 <timeless> ... expect us to join for what we care about
18:45:17 <timeless> ... and leaving things we don't care about ourselves
18:45:20 <timeless> ... and similar for others
18:45:29 <timeless> anne: in particular, streaming seems far less controversial
18:45:41 <timeless> paulc: what do you mean by separate?
18:45:50 <timeless> ... group doesn't seem interested in TF
18:45:55 <timeless> ... do you want 2 new email lists
18:45:58 <timeless> ... or tagged messages
18:46:05 <timeless> chaals: if we behave nicely
18:46:10 <timeless> ... if it's easy to figure out
18:46:21 <timeless> ... so long as that works nicely, that's ok
18:46:33 <timeless> paulc: if we had a F2F
18:46:35 <timeless> ... 2 days
18:46:39 <timeless> ... encrypted on day 1
18:46:43 <timeless> ... sources on day 2
18:46:46 <timeless> ... would that work?
18:46:49 <timeless> chaals: yes
18:46:57 <timeless> paulc: you're asking for work allocation split
18:47:03 <timeless> ... for phone calls, which call for which item
18:47:08 <timeless> chaals: i don't think it was just us
18:47:17 <timeless> tantek: i want to echo what chaals is saying
18:47:25 <timeless> ... i think mozilla is also interested in media source streaming
18:47:35 <timeless> ... and what anne says, that seems fairly uncontroverisal
18:47:49 <timeless> s/uncontroverisal/uncontroversial/
18:48:00 <timeless> ... i'd say media stream source should be a core part of HTML.next
18:48:06 <timeless> ... the other part i don't think we could get consensus on
18:48:12 <timeless> adrianba: I want to support what chaals was asking for
18:48:23 <timeless> ... we want to enable people to participate in the things they're interested in 
18:48:35 <timeless> ... as a general work practice, having that discipline makes life easier for everyone
18:48:47 <timeless> Mark_Vickers: listening to chaals and tantek , i'm more convinced
18:48:54 <timeless> ... of handling the two things differently
18:48:59 <timeless> ... source has been out for about a year
18:49:04 <timeless> ... it's not as much of controversy
18:49:10 <timeless> ... as level of development
18:49:19 <timeless> ... i don't think it needs as much intense meetings
18:49:31 <timeless> ... for encryption, i think we need meetings much sooner
18:49:37 <timeless> ... and another one shortly after
18:49:53 <timeless> ... i think they may need to be handled differently
18:49:58 <timeless> ... i hope we can have this soon
18:50:04 <timeless> acolwell: i agree with adrianba 
18:50:11 <timeless> ... we want to be as inclusive for both proposals
18:50:16 <timeless> ... we, google, want to get this done
18:50:28 <timeless> ... we wanted to keep them separate so we could evolve them separately
18:50:41 <timeless> mark: i don't have an opinion on process
18:50:43 <timeless> ... but decide soon
18:50:56 <timeless> ... what does it mean for something to be a core part of HTML.next?
18:51:06 <timeless> paulc: i put this item on agenda before charter discussion
18:51:19 <timeless> ... chairs and team would like to go down the wiki items and say
18:51:28 <timeless> ... should these things be covered by scope of the charter for the WG
18:51:39 <timeless> mark: if it isn't in the Charter, it isn't worked on the WG?
18:51:45 <timeless> paulc: not without ReChartering
18:51:51 <timeless> ... back to Mark_Vickers about sooner
18:52:14 <timeless> ... the reason i suggested Sep was splitting the difference between now and TPAC
18:52:21 <timeless> ... what about a F2F at the end of june?
18:52:27 <timeless> ... and plh's blood is boiling
18:52:34 <tantek> there really seems to be different constraints, interests, urgency for Media src/streams vs. DRM.
18:52:35 <timeless> ... talking about something for which we don't have a host?
18:52:46 <timeless> ... especially for Europeans who take August off
18:52:53 <timeless> ... where North Americans lose the first week
18:53:00 <timeless> ... of September to vacation
18:53:06 <timeless> ... but I want to make it clear we need a host
18:53:15 <timeless> Mark_Vickers: there are 3 authors to this proposal
18:53:24 <timeless> ... we'd like to be part of a more intense group
18:53:31 <timeless> ... but i don't want to form a more exclusionary group
18:53:39 <timeless> ... i'd like to create more high bandwidth involvement
18:53:43 <timeless> ... but not forced to wait
18:53:55 <timeless> chaals: i understand 2 weeks
18:54:04 <timeless> ... we flew 3 people from Europe to the meeting
18:54:08 <timeless> ... that was expensive
18:54:15 <timeless> ... if you want Soon, we could do Beijing
18:54:22 <timeless> ... or we could do Guteborg
18:54:27 <timeless> ... and we wouldn't object to short notice
18:54:29 <timeless> q+
18:54:38 <timeless> ... but this is W3C
18:54:45 <timeless> ... and part of this is dealing with the world
18:54:55 <timeless> paulc: we're on the west cosat
18:54:58 <timeless> s/cosat/coast/
18:55:03 <timeless> ... we intentionally picked this
18:55:08 <timeless> ... for good attendance
18:55:26 <timeless> ... we're tentatively in Europe Oct 31-Nov 3
18:55:41 <tantek> I think decoupling Media src/streams vs. DRM would benefit *both*, i.e. permit the folks that want to urgently meet quickly on DRM to go ahead and do so in a more agile fashion, and reduce the number of folks to coordinate with for meeting time/place preferences etc.
18:55:50 <timeless> ... for TPAC
18:55:56 <timeless> ... the general model is that Web Apps would meet Mon Tue
18:56:01 <tantek> woohoo - TPAC during Halloween again!
18:56:04 <timeless> ... and HTML would meet Thu Fri
18:56:11 <timeless> ... the pattern since 2009
18:56:18 <timeless> ... Plenary on Wed
18:56:34 <timeless> ... some have W3C process in cache
18:56:43 <timeless> ... usual process in W3C is 8 weeks notice
18:56:47 <timeless> ... that doesn't preclude us
18:56:48 <glenn> glenn has joined #html-wg
18:56:52 <adrianba> -> http://www.w3.org/2012/10/TPAC/ TPAC 2012
18:56:56 <timeless> ... from having separate topical meetings by phone
18:56:58 <timeless> q?
18:57:10 <timeless> ... plh: anything to add about a F2F
18:57:15 <timeless> plh: everything has been said
18:57:26 <timeless> ... would be concern about meeting F2F every two weeks
18:57:34 <timeless> ... a lot of work on participants
18:57:36 <glenn> won't be present at afternoon's session, but cox votes +1 for including Encrypted Media Extension in "core html.next" deliverables
18:57:42 <timeless> ack me
18:57:52 <timeless> Josh_Soref: this meeting painful for me to get to
18:58:44 <timeless> acolwell: trying to schedule F2F now may be premature
18:58:53 <timeless> ... does it make sense to see where it goes before?
18:59:00 <timeless> chaals: Josh_Soref isn't the only person
18:59:05 <timeless> ... there are people not in this room
18:59:13 <timeless> ... for the same reason it was painful for him
18:59:18 <timeless> ... you need to plan with a pile of lead time
18:59:22 <timeless> ... and you'll hit Summer
18:59:27 <timeless> ... two months of misery
18:59:35 <timeless> ... Americans don't work in July
18:59:40 <timeless> ... Europeans don't work in August
18:59:45 <timeless> ... from a practical perspective
18:59:51 <timeless> ... we should figure it out in the next week
19:00:00 <timeless> ... if you want to do it before you get buried in summer
19:00:06 <timeless> paulc: it was strictly getting rooms
19:00:08 <timeless> ... which was the problem
19:00:14 <timeless> ... which is why we had to change dates
19:00:20 <timeless> ... as the person paying the bills
19:00:22 <timeless> ... it isn't cheap
19:00:35 <timeless> ... i even have to pay for security
19:00:49 <timeless> ... it's less expensive doing it here than in a hotel
19:01:08 <timeless> chaals: i can get dirt cheap meeting space in Morocco 
19:01:18 <joesteele> +1 for Morrocco
19:01:22 <timeless> paulc: rubys, do you think we have enough feedback from the WG?
19:01:25 <timeless> rubys: I think so
19:01:26 <MikeSmith> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting
19:01:28 <joesteele> s/Morrocco/Morocco/
19:01:30 <timeless> s/sam:/rubys:/g
19:01:34 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
19:01:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
19:01:46 <timeless> paulc: the rest of you, please corner us 1-on-1
19:01:53 <timeless> ... if anyone wants to host, please let us know directly
19:02:10 <timeless> glenn: presumably this wouldn't be the whole
19:02:26 <timeless> paulc: at least one company indicated a willingness to divide focus
19:02:34 <timeless> ... i wouldn't be surprised if we divided the time
19:02:40 <timeless> ... if we needed a room for at least 30 people
19:02:51 <timeless> ... especially if Mark_Vickers indicated others might get engaged
19:03:06 <timeless> ... Duey - Truman phenomena 
19:03:22 <timeless> glenn: Cox can volunteer meeting space in Atlanta
19:03:42 <timeless> BobLund: CableLabs can offer space in Denver
19:03:52 <timeless> Mark_Vickers: Comcast can offer space in Philadelphia
19:04:05 <timeless> mark: are the chairs saying we're going to work on these two items in ernest?
19:04:12 <timeless> paulc: I'm not hearing dissent at all
19:04:19 <timeless> ... i'd like to agree on the order for after lunch
19:04:21 <joesteele> s/ernest/earnest/
19:04:47 <timeless> ... everyone put up your hands if you'll be hear at 5pm
19:04:52 <kennyluck> kennyluck has joined #html-wg
19:05:11 <timeless> ... raise your hand if you'll be here at 4pm
19:05:17 <timeless> ... raise your hand if you'll be here at 3pm
19:05:25 <timeless> ... looks like we're losing people at lunch
19:05:32 <timeless> ... chaals can scribe
19:05:37 <timeless> ... proposal: we move agenda down
19:05:54 <timeless> ... nice segway doing charter after lunch
19:06:17 <timeless> s/segway/segue/
19:09:55 <timeless> [ Lunch ]
19:10:56 <rubys> rubys has joined #html-wg
19:11:57 <tantek> tantek has joined #html-wg
19:19:27 <jarek> jarek has joined #html-wg
19:29:30 <mjs> mjs has joined #html-wg
19:35:44 <Petr> Petr has joined #html-wg
19:43:11 <JF> JF has joined #html-wg
19:43:15 <timeless> Zakim, BobLund has left F2F
19:43:15 <Zakim> timeless, I was not aware that BobLund was in F2F
19:43:21 <timeless> Zakim, BobLund has entered F2F
19:43:21 <Zakim> +BobLund; got it
19:43:23 <timeless> Zakim, BobLund has left F2F
19:43:23 <Zakim> -BobLund; got it
19:45:47 <Arno_> Arno_ has joined #html-wg
20:05:50 <acolwell> acolwell has joined #html-wg
20:08:32 <timeless> Topic: Charter v.Next
20:08:56 <tantek> tantek has joined #html-wg
20:09:06 <timeless> plh: some of you are lucky enough not to be familiar with how we work
20:09:10 <Wonsuk> Wonsuk has joined #html-wg
20:09:23 <timeless> ... when people look to joining the group
20:09:28 <timeless> ... you're committing to RF agreements
20:09:32 <timeless> ... so you go to the lawyers
20:09:40 <timeless> ... if i put a charter that said "you can do whatever you want"
20:09:43 <tantek_> tantek_ has joined #html-wg
20:09:47 <timeless> ... your lawyers will kill me right away
20:09:52 <rubys> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter
20:09:52 <timeless> ... i put a list of things in the wiki
20:10:05 <timeless> ... of things we could put in the charter
20:10:18 <timeless> ... i'm only interested in In-Scope or Out-Of-Scope for the WG
20:10:27 <timeless> ... it doesn't affect how many Specs
20:10:44 <timeless> ... of course, we try to draw the charter to give freedom for the WG to, e.g. add a new html element
20:10:45 <icaaq> icaaq has joined #html-wg
20:10:59 <timeless> ... this morning we had a discussion on Media Source and Encrypted Media extensions
20:11:04 <timeless> ... and you guys agreed to make a TF
20:11:08 <timeless> No!
20:11:15 <timeless> plh: oh, a ML
20:11:24 <timeless> ... can we assume you're ok with adding that to the charter
20:11:37 <timeless> tantek: is there a methodology for what is in HTML WG v. Web Apps?
20:11:45 <timeless> plh: i don't think there's a clear methodology
20:11:49 <timeless> ... sometimes it's historically
20:11:57 <timeless> s/historically/for historical reasons/
20:12:04 <timeless> tantek: let me put forth a straw proposal
20:12:12 <timeless> ... if something makes sense in a more focused WG
20:12:17 <timeless> ... maybe it can be in that WG
20:12:31 <timeless> plh: I don't think anything in the proposal...
20:12:38 <timeless> ... except for Web Intents
20:12:41 <myakura> myakura has joined #html-wg
20:12:41 <timeless> tantek: sure
20:12:54 <timeless> plh: I know hiro_away wanted to add http+aes/https+aes schemes
20:12:59 <timeless> s/hiro_away/Hixie/
20:13:03 <timeless> ... any objection to that?
20:13:17 <timeless> paulc: you have that under media
20:13:27 <timeless> ddorwin: I think it's generic
20:13:44 <timeless> anne: it was in the proposals for Encrypted Media extensions
20:13:55 <timeless> plh: i didn't hear someone say "we want it out-of-scope"
20:14:01 <timeless> anne: that would seem kind of lame
20:14:03 <timeless> paulc: why?
20:14:21 <timeless> anne: it was a proposal in context for Encrypted Media
20:14:22 <ddorwin> to clarify, it was proposed as an alternative, not "in the proposals"
20:14:24 <timeless> ... so why exclude?
20:14:37 <timeless> plh: then there was MikeSmith 's list
20:14:53 <timeless> ... one of the problems we're having is that we have other WGs extending HTML
20:15:09 <timeless> ... is there anything in that list that we'd rather do in the HTML WG?
20:15:19 <timeless> ... e.g., we rejected the ping= attribute for HTML5
20:15:28 <timeless> ... people should be free to bring it up for .Next
20:15:32 <timeless> ... two things to consider now:
20:15:36 <timeless> ... Web Components
20:15:38 <timeless> ... Web Intents
20:15:42 <timeless> ... they're currently in Web Apps
20:15:59 <timeless> ... at some point, Web Apps, was like "it seems outside our area, more into HTML than into Web Apps"
20:16:07 <timeless> ... should we add Web Components into scope for this WG
20:16:15 <timeless> ... or should we let Web Apps deal with it?
20:16:17 <timeless> q?
20:16:34 <timeless> anne: HTML Parser will most likely change for Web Components
20:16:47 <timeless> ... if you want to keep defining HTML Parser, then you should add Web Components to Scope
20:16:54 <timeless> chaals: The Web Apps charter says that
20:17:11 <timeless> ... ~ a "low barrier process to move stuff from one group to the other"
20:17:28 <timeless> ... the fact that you have to change the parser should be severable from defining Web Components
20:17:35 <timeless> ... HTML WG defines the Parsing
20:17:43 <timeless> ... i'm not sure you need a tight joint deliverable
20:17:51 <timeless> plh: the Parser is already in Scope
20:17:58 <timeless> chaals: we should ensure that the Parser is in Scope
20:18:14 <timeless> anne: Web Components would tie into certain specific elements of the Parser
20:18:26 <timeless> plh: does the deliverable need to be listed in the HTML spec?
20:18:39 <timeless> anne: I, personally, think all HTML elements should be listed in the HTML spec
20:18:47 <timeless> paulc: let's put it in the HTML WG charter
20:18:53 <timeless> anne: it's unclear how we'd organize it
20:19:14 <timeless> plh: i'd like to avoid the HTML WG later saying "let's put it in the HTML spec"
20:19:20 <timeless> ... and someone says "it's not in Charter"
20:19:25 <timeless> chaals: let's put it in the charter
20:19:36 <timeless> mjs: for specific elements
20:19:46 <timeless> ... it might be debatable where things should be developed
20:19:59 <timeless> ... but perhaps we should have a catchall item in charter
20:20:16 <timeless> ... to say anything that involves changes to the parser
20:20:29 <timeless> ... could be in scope either as a joint deliverable or sole deliverable
20:20:39 <timeless> plh: i'm fine with something
20:20:44 <timeless> ... that says elements or attributes
20:21:02 <timeless> paulc: "it's in the scope of the HTML WG to define the syntax of elements and attributes within the HTML elements"
20:21:15 <timeless> mjs: as long as it says "this is a non exhaustive list of items"
20:21:22 <timeless> paulc: "The following is a set of examples"
20:21:30 <timeless> plh: would web intents fall into that?
20:21:37 <timeless> MikeSmith: Web Intents is only one element
20:21:43 <timeless> ... and it wouldn't involve parser changes
20:21:53 <timeless> paulc: who does that require coordination with?
20:22:00 <timeless> Josh_Soref: DAP+WebApps
20:22:17 <MikeSmith> q?
20:22:18 <timeless> paulc: as a general principle, should the charter indicate who is currently working on items?
20:22:20 <timeless> plh: yes
20:22:36 <timeless> paulc: so we should include references to the other group's + deliverables
20:22:43 <timeless> plh: i gather it's the same for the others
20:22:55 <timeless> ... we'd use this catch all sentence as well
20:23:02 <timeless> paulc: this list
20:23:07 <timeless> ... has been accessible for quite some time
20:23:16 <timeless> ... is there any reason we wouldn't include the entire list?
20:23:22 <timeless> tantek: more of a meta comment on the list
20:23:26 <timeless> ... there's an antipattern
20:23:31 <timeless> ... new person comes to web platform
20:23:37 <timeless> ... with new feature, requests new element
20:23:42 <timeless> ... i'd request the opposite
20:23:48 <timeless> ... we should be very conservative
20:24:01 <timeless> paulc: why is that an antipattern
20:24:09 <timeless> tantek: it's what every new person does
20:24:15 <timeless> ... and it's most often the wrong answer
20:24:20 <timeless> ... we have CSS, we have rel= attributes
20:24:29 <timeless> ... there are various other ways to do it
20:24:41 <timeless> ... that Browser devs know to do instead
20:24:47 <timeless> mjs: do we have lists that proposed
20:24:52 <timeless> ... new types/rels?
20:25:04 <timeless> ... are there new attributes?
20:25:13 <timeless> MikeSmith: this list doesn't cover new attribute values/apis
20:25:24 <timeless> mjs: we shouldn't presume they'll be added in the form proposed
20:25:34 <timeless> ... i agree with not wanting to favor new elements
20:25:41 <timeless> ... "here are some examples of elements and features"
20:25:46 <timeless> tantek: i'm for examples
20:25:49 <timeless> ... but not as elements
20:26:00 <timeless> rubys: MikeSmith, "not for new attributes?"
20:26:06 <timeless> MikeSmith: not new attribute _values_
20:26:14 <timeless> plh: I don't think we should put that text
20:26:20 <timeless> ... it would be too descriptive
20:26:27 <timeless> ... i'd be fine with a generic statement from mjs
20:26:35 <MikeSmith> q?
20:26:38 <timeless> mjs: how about a generic statement and a link to a list of examples
20:27:30 <timeless> mjs: tantek: should features include "no elements", or does he object to an "exclusive list of elements"
20:27:35 <timeless> tantek: I'm ok with a list of functionality
20:27:44 <timeless> ... "Web Intents is functionality"
20:27:50 <timeless> ... but <intent> is picking a specific solution
20:27:56 <timeless> mjs: you want a list of Functional Areas
20:28:00 <timeless> ... but not to describe Syntax
20:28:02 <timeless> tantek: right
20:28:08 <timeless> ... Syntax is inappropriate for a charter
20:28:15 <timeless> paulc: i understand the point you're making
20:28:19 <MikeSmith> q?
20:28:24 <timeless> ... the fact that the bad practice that you want to eliminate/avoid
20:28:34 <timeless> ... is that people view the HTML WG as owning the syntax/language
20:28:36 <MikeSmith> q+ to speak
20:28:38 <timeless> ... the charter has to say that
20:28:52 <timeless> ... if someone does want to follow the antipattern of adding the new element
20:28:57 <timeless> ... but they should come to the HTML WG
20:29:08 <timeless> tantek: that if you want a new element, you can come to the HTML WG
20:29:13 <timeless> s/WG/WG?/
20:29:21 <timeless> ... No. I'd rather it not say, and they be confused
20:29:29 <timeless> ... and have them ask, and be told, "no, do something else"
20:29:37 <timeless> mjs: if people are confused, they won't know to whom to ask
20:29:43 <timeless> ... and they'll get the wrong answer
20:29:49 <timeless> ... and they'll decide it's ok to do
20:29:55 <timeless> paulc: mjs stole my next question
20:30:10 <timeless> ... do you want the charter should say "no one else in w3c should be creating new elements in the html language"
20:30:12 <timeless> tantek: no
20:30:22 <MikeSmith> q?
20:30:23 <timeless> cyns: Aria is a good example
20:30:27 <timeless> tantek: +1 to cyns
20:30:35 <timeless> ... even the style attribute
20:30:36 <timeless> ack MikeSmith 
20:30:36 <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to speak
20:30:50 <timeless> MikeSmith: ARIA is a good example of an extension developed outside HTML WG
20:30:52 <paulc> paulc has joined #html-wg
20:30:53 <timeless> ... but which came back
20:30:58 <timeless> ... the idea of extensions being developed
20:31:01 <cyns> cyns has joined #html-wg
20:31:03 <timeless> ... but never being folded back
20:31:13 <timeless> ... i think having new elements being created and not folded back
20:31:14 <mjs> q+
20:31:17 <timeless> ... i don't think that's a good idea
20:31:25 <timeless> ... let me talk about a specific example
20:31:29 <timeless> ... look at <speech> stuff
20:31:33 <timeless> ... there still isn't consensus
20:31:40 <timeless> ... on new features for speech/tts
20:31:46 <timeless> ... that there needs to be markup at all
20:31:52 <timeless> ... i'd argue if there doesn't need to be markup,
20:31:58 <timeless> ... then there's no need to coordinate
20:32:16 <rubys> q+
20:32:22 <timeless> ... "for these features, if new elements/attributes seem to be necessary/desirable
20:32:29 <timeless> ... ... then that work is in scope for the HTML WG"
20:32:35 <timeless> ... i'd further assert, that the group should consider
20:32:44 <timeless> ... whether it should restrict itself more to Markup features
20:32:48 <timeless> ... an example of this is WebGL
20:32:55 <timeless> ... <canvas> work was done before it came to HTML WG
20:33:02 <timeless> ... work continues to be done in HTML WG
20:33:08 <timeless> ... but it could be done somewhere else
20:33:12 <timeless> ... it was done somewhere else
20:33:25 <timeless> ... hypothetically, it could be bound to another element
20:33:34 <timeless> ... there are other APIs under discussion, today and in the future
20:33:45 <timeless> ... where the WG does not necessarily have to do the work on the APIs
20:34:02 <timeless> ... the work could be done ... elsewhere ... in a more efficient way
20:34:09 <timeless> ... WebGL is an existence proof
20:34:17 <timeless> ... there was no coordination with khronos about WebGL
20:34:23 <timeless> ... and it seems to have worked out fairly well
20:34:34 <timeless> Josh_Soref: WebApps should have been more in that coordination
20:34:45 <timeless> MikeSmith: The spec defines HTML as having an implied Namespace
20:34:54 <timeless> ... new elements and attributes
20:35:03 <timeless> ... APIs, if they aren't tied to elements/attributes
20:35:10 <timeless> ... we have interfaces in DOM
20:35:12 <timeless> ... for HTML elements
20:35:20 <timeless> ... and they have to be somewhere
20:35:24 <MikeSmith> q?
20:35:29 <mjs> ack mjs
20:35:31 <timeless> ... but we have things that aren't as tightly bound
20:35:42 <timeless> mjs: it seems like there are two interesting dimensions to the charter
20:35:49 <timeless> ... we should mention both
20:35:54 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:35:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
20:36:02 <timeless> ... one is subject matter areas that the group can work on
20:36:13 <plh> q?
20:36:15 <timeless> ... charters are not totally care on whether they're minimum or maximum scope
20:36:24 <timeless> ... if not working on them, they're considered to have failed
20:36:31 <timeless> ... there's also a technological area of focus
20:36:35 <timeless> ... CSS WG
20:36:48 <timeless> ... most acknowledge that if you want to introduce a new CSS attribute
20:36:58 <timeless> ... you should do it in CSS WG, or in conjunction with CSS WG
20:37:09 <timeless> ... I don't know if the charter says so
20:37:12 <timeless> ... but for HTML
20:37:23 <timeless> ... it should probably say that you should probably talk to the HTML WG
20:37:27 <plh> q+
20:37:34 <timeless> ... if you want an Element, Attribute, Value, or Parser Change
20:37:45 <timeless> ... I think the charter should cover both the low level functional domain
20:37:52 <timeless> ... as well as subject matter areas open to work
20:38:01 <timeless> ... the second for IPR review
20:38:11 <timeless> ... and member companies may not sign off if you don't make reasonably clear
20:38:25 <timeless> ... I agree with tantek 's concern about not predefining the solution for an area
20:38:26 <plh> ack rubys
20:38:35 <timeless> rubys: I agree we can make a stronger statement for parser changes
20:38:45 <timeless> ... new elements/attributes, different people will disagree
20:38:50 <timeless> ... anne made a point about Web Components
20:38:56 <timeless> ... parser changes should get HTML WG involved
20:39:04 <timeless> plh: i don't say parser is in scope of HTML WG
20:39:16 <timeless> ... but i'm uncomfortable about saying "no one else can work on parser"
20:39:26 <timeless> ... we assert rights by coordination
20:39:40 <timeless> rubys: can't you say as a positive statement "This is the group that defines the parser"
20:39:53 <timeless> paulc: and you can put in the Liason section, "This is the group of possible offenders"
20:39:59 <timeless> ... WebApps for Web Components
20:40:05 <timeless> ... PF for ARIA
20:40:15 <timeless> ... etc.
20:40:36 <timeless> ... I agree the upper part of charter should say "we own this backyard, and no one else comes here"
20:40:55 <timeless> plh: Canvas 2D additions
20:41:12 <timeless> ... i'm assuming no one will argue against doing those additions in the WG
20:41:17 <timeless> [ No objections ]
20:41:29 <timeless> plh: MikeSmith, the bugzilla component has other items
20:41:48 <timeless> MikeSmith: the list was proposals that were Markup features
20:42:15 <MikeSmith> eh?
20:42:39 <timeless> paulc: should the charter say
20:42:58 <timeless> ... "items deferred from HTML5 including the following"
20:43:05 <timeless> ... you have more experience than anyone in the room
20:43:12 <timeless> ... i've only listed 9 or 10
20:43:19 <timeless> plh: in general, we try not to list
20:43:38 <timeless> paulc: it's not uncommon to have
20:43:45 <timeless> ... deliverables that are requirements for the next version
20:44:18 <timeless> plh: i'm under the impression the group would like more flexibility
20:44:26 <timeless> paulc: the extremes are "leave the trap door open
20:44:30 <timeless> ... causing IPR pain"
20:44:42 <timeless> ... or you close the trap door, and cause the 
20:45:07 <timeless> ... -- Make the charter vague enough that you fail AC review
20:45:21 <timeless> ... -- Make an interim charter causing the WG to deliver a set of features
20:45:32 <timeless> ... put that out to get feedback and do an explicit revised charter
20:45:52 <timeless> plh: tantek would like to work on a <decompress> element
20:45:58 <timeless> [ Laughter ]
20:46:58 <timeless> chaals: where's the Line element?
20:47:10 <timeless> plh: Fullscreen is being taken care of
20:47:19 <timeless> paulc: does video enhancements
20:47:36 <timeless> ddorwin: next frame is squishy
20:48:01 <adrianba> q?
20:48:04 <adrianba> q+
20:48:11 <timeless> paulc: following mjs's request for a high level
20:48:22 <timeless> ... does this mean "additional forms functionality"?
20:48:34 <timeless> ... or "additional functionality based on existing language constructs"?
20:48:51 <timeless> ... tantek, don't throw your chair at me
20:49:13 <timeless> ... something that says "new elements and attributes", but "extensions to the existing language"
20:49:31 <timeless> plh: looking at the existing charter
20:49:48 <timeless> Josh_Soref: is there anything wrong with the current scope
20:49:58 <timeless> s/scope/scope?/
20:50:14 <anne> "classic HTML" really? 
20:50:19 <timeless> ... there's a thing about workshops
20:50:19 <anne> that text is hilarious
20:50:26 <timeless> plh: in general, we don't do that normally for charters
20:50:31 <timeless> adrianba: I wanted to talk about 2.1
20:50:36 <timeless> ... this has things that are in scope
20:50:43 <timeless> ... it seems like a reasonable compromise
20:51:07 <timeless> ... maybe we can look at the other proposals
20:51:25 <timeless> plh: do you think the media items are within scope for the existing charter?
20:51:31 <timeless> adrianba: I've said before that i believe they are
20:51:37 <timeless> cyns: second bullet from the bottom seems to cover it
20:51:48 <timeless> plh: alright, if it's already in scope, we can already work on it as much as we want
20:51:55 <timeless> paulc: is there anything we want to throw away
20:52:02 <timeless> cyns: probably "evolved from html4"
20:52:10 <timeless> rubys: still a true statement
20:52:22 <timeless> Josh_Soref: do you want to move that thing about meetings?
20:52:29 <timeless> plh: we can move that to another section
20:52:38 <adrianba> q-
20:52:39 <timeless> paulc: there are 7 bullets there
20:52:56 <timeless> > A language evolved from HTML4 for describing the semantics of documents and applications on the World Wide Web. This will be a complete specification, not a delta specification.
20:53:06 <timeless> plh: HTML4 => HTML5
20:53:15 <timeless> ... maybe remove the second sentence
20:53:19 <timeless> ... i'd suggest to remove it
20:53:28 <timeless> mjs: +1
20:53:29 <timeless> adrianba: +1
20:53:31 <timeless> chaals: +1
20:53:34 <timeless> [ General agreement ]
20:53:41 <timeless> > An extensible, serialized form of such a language, using XML.
20:53:51 <timeless> plh: during Web Apps
20:54:02 <timeless> ... the Web Components will only be applicable to one syntax, HTML, not XHTML
20:54:12 <timeless> ... to be allowed to do this thing...
20:54:24 <timeless> paulc: is this particular bullet met and satisfied by the polyglot spec?
20:54:34 <timeless> plh: you need the xhtml syntax to do polyglot
20:54:58 <timeless> paulc: where is xhtml in our deliverables?
20:55:01 <timeless> plh: it's in section 9
20:55:17 <timeless> paulc: polyglot came in
20:55:25 <timeless> ... i'm wondering what words were in the original charter
20:55:31 <timeless> ... other than the director
20:55:44 <timeless> adrianba: > This group will maintain and produce incremental revisions to the HTML specification, which includes the series of specifications previously published as XHTML version 1. Both XML and 'classic HTML' syntaxes will be produced.
20:55:52 <timeless> chaals: what does this commit us to do
20:55:59 <timeless> ... and what does it except?
20:56:03 <timeless> plh: as is the case anyway
20:56:18 <timeless> chaals: here, it's reasonable to assume you can do html5 in xml
20:56:23 <timeless> ... we should make it clearer that you can't
20:56:35 <timeless> plh: that there are differences between the two syntaxes?
20:56:37 <timeless> chaals: yes
20:56:46 <timeless> ... there are semantic and capability differences
20:56:55 <timeless> > A serialized form of such a language using a defined, non-XML syntax compatible with the 'classic HTML' parsers of existing Web browsers.
20:57:00 <timeless> anne: why "classic"
20:57:05 <timeless> adrianba: that's why it's classic
20:57:10 <timeless> cyns: "classic is good"
20:57:20 <timeless> anne: "classic" seems alien
20:57:32 <timeless> chaals: "it sounds better than the moronist/crappy html"
20:57:39 <timeless> anne: or the TAG call it "tag soup"
20:58:00 <timeless> plh: i'm fine with s/'classic HTML'/HTML/
20:58:12 <timeless> paulc: do you get rid of 'existing' if you get rid of 'classic'?
20:58:15 <timeless> cyns: yes
20:58:29 <timeless> paulc: it seems to imply if you had a new browser that came along
20:58:42 <timeless> anne: HTML language with HTML an XHTML syntaxes
20:59:25 <timeless> chaals: it's in this charter, because it was a big shift from what we had
20:59:28 <timeless> ... but now we have it
20:59:40 <timeless> > Document Object Model (DOM) interfaces providing APIs for such a language.
20:59:56 <timeless> Josh_Soref: wasn't there a DOM WG?
20:59:59 <timeless> cyns: there was
21:00:05 <timeless> chaals: Web Apps took over DOM Core
21:00:06 <MikeSmith> "An abstract language for describing documents and applications, with HTML an XHTML syntaxes, and some APIs for interacting with in-memory representations of resources that use this language."
21:00:13 <timeless> ... the rest of DOM are belong to us
21:00:18 <timeless> cyns: there's a piece missing
21:00:30 <timeless> ... about how the UA maps DOM to existing OSs
21:00:49 <timeless> MikeSmith: does that need to be in the HTML WG?
21:00:56 <timeless> cyns: I'm not sure who else would do it
21:00:59 <timeless> ... we have overlap
21:01:06 <timeless> paulc: what's the deliverable
21:01:25 <timeless> cyns: a document mapping how HTML constructs map to Accessibility constructs in a variety of platforms
21:01:50 <plh> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-api-map/raw-file/default/Overview.html
21:02:03 <timeless> paulc: you're saying the high level deliverables don't cover that deliverable
21:02:18 <timeless> s|http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-api-map/raw-file/default/Overview.html|-> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-api-map/raw-file/default/Overview.html HTML to Platform Accessibility APIs Implementation Guide|
21:03:01 <timeless> paulc: a specification mapping HTML elements and attributes to accessibility API Roles
21:03:13 <timeless> ... States and Properties on a variety of platforms
21:03:22 <timeless> ... that would let this document map to that requirement
21:03:29 <timeless> janina: this is important
21:03:36 <timeless> ... because there will be an HTML.next and an ARIA.next
21:03:41 <timeless> cyns: and the platforms are evolving
21:03:47 <timeless> > Forms and common UI widgets such as progress bars, datagrids, menus, and other controls.
21:03:51 <timeless> cyns: we need more of those
21:03:58 <timeless> ... i don't think those are the right ones
21:04:02 <timeless> rubys: the examples should be updated
21:04:32 <kennyluck> kennyluck has joined #html-wg
21:04:37 <timeless> cyns: chaals is bored, he wants a soap opera to watch
21:04:40 <timeless> > APIs for the manipulation of linked media.
21:04:43 <timeless> > Editing APIs and user-driven WYSIWYG editing features.
21:04:48 <timeless> cyns: those still need work
21:05:00 <timeless> paulc: is there anything we want to add?
21:05:14 <timeless> ... in general, are the things we've talked about adequately covered by the evolving bullets we have here?
21:05:19 <timeless> cyns: which bullets covers canvas?
21:05:22 <timeless> plh: interesting point
21:05:27 <timeless> [ Uh ]
21:05:43 <timeless> mjs: Man, I never thought we'd get to have this conversation
21:06:24 <timeless> plh: maybe i should put some wording for the <canvas> element
21:06:35 <timeless> mjs: at some point there was an addition for canvas
21:06:45 <timeless> paulc: was that in a note to AC or in the charter?
21:07:15 <timeless> > Data and canvas are reasonable areas of work for the group. On the one hand, they elaborate areas touched on in HTML4. On the other hand, these elaborations are much deeper than the features of HTML4, but also they form separate subsystems, and these subsystems have strong overlaps with other design areas.
21:07:26 <timeless> plh: so, we should make sure microdata is in scope as well?
21:07:45 <timeless> paulc: update the bullets
21:07:52 <timeless> ... and then reverse engineer the bullets from the deliverables
21:07:55 <timeless> ... Accessibility Document
21:07:58 <timeless> ... Canvas
21:08:28 <timeless> ... Polyglot (covered, but obscurely)
21:08:35 <timeless> MikeSmith: why does Canvas 2d need to be in HTML WG
21:08:38 <timeless> ... where WebGL isn't?
21:08:45 <timeless> ... is it historical?
21:09:00 <timeless> ... assuming it's the right place is maybe not the right assumption
21:09:07 <timeless> plh: do you want to create another?
21:09:21 <timeless> ... anyone want to do it outside the WG?
21:09:27 <timeless> MikeSmith: alright, let's resolve then
21:09:53 <timeless> rubys: if someone actually proposed that
21:09:57 <timeless> ... i think we should consider it
21:10:21 <ddorwin> ddorwin has joined #html-wg
21:10:35 <timeless> paulc: are we done?
21:10:49 <timeless> plh: there was DOM Parsing and Serialization
21:10:55 <timeless> ISSUE-184?
21:10:55 <trackbot> ISSUE-184 -- Add a data element -- open
21:10:55 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/184
21:11:21 <timeless> ISSUE-198?
21:11:21 <trackbot> ISSUE-198 -- Ensure innerHTML and related APIs are subject to the W3C patent policy -- open
21:11:21 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/198
21:11:38 <timeless> rubys: ISSUE-198 failed for lack of an editor
21:11:44 <timeless> ... microsoft identified an editor
21:11:47 <timeless> ... it's now in scope of chairs
21:11:57 <timeless> ... proposal to change
21:12:02 <timeless> ... assumption in W3C
21:12:09 <timeless> ... this came up during web apps charter
21:12:17 <timeless> plh: it's in Web Apps charter atm
21:12:23 <timeless> chaals: that charter has been finished and approved
21:12:31 <timeless> ... does HTML want to fight us for it?
21:12:53 <timeless> paulc: i sent an email to the cochairs
21:13:00 <timeless> ... didn't this material come out of html spec?
21:13:05 <timeless> anne: yes
21:13:23 <timeless> paulc: straw man, doesn't it make sense to do it here, since it's from here?
21:13:32 <timeless> hober: a number of things have been spread out
21:13:37 <timeless> anne: html spec is too big
21:13:43 <timeless> ... and once spun out, it's also wrong
21:13:56 <timeless> mjs: there was an individual from ms who volunteered to do the work
21:14:13 <timeless> ... would he object to do it if it were a webapps deliverable instead of in html?
21:14:20 <timeless> paulc: we'll pass on your question
21:14:27 <timeless> rubys: shouldn't we get the editor's input?
21:14:31 <timeless> paulc: yes
21:14:37 <timeless> ... cochairs should discuss this
21:14:44 <timeless> ... given we have a volunteer to do the work
21:14:54 <timeless> ... and we'll get back to both WGs with a proposed solution
21:14:59 <timeless> plh: it's in scope of Web Apps
21:15:11 <timeless> paulc: that's a likely solution
21:15:45 <anne> (my "too big" was a quote)
21:15:58 <timeless> paulc: plh, on Apr 24
21:16:08 <timeless> ... you sent out a proposal to have a charter
21:16:22 <timeless> ... are you going to take our input today and go directly to AC?
21:16:29 <timeless> plh: no, i'd like to write a charter
21:16:32 <timeless> ... to ask MikeSmith to do it
21:16:37 <timeless> ... and circulate it to the WG
21:16:42 <timeless> paulc: can we have a time table for tha?
21:16:44 <timeless> s/tha/that/
21:16:47 <timeless> plh: MikeSmith ?
21:16:51 <timeless> MikeSmith: next month?
21:16:56 <timeless> chaals: the first or second?
21:17:06 <timeless> MikeSmith: not likely i can do it by the end of this month
21:17:34 <timeless> ACTION MikeSmith to draft revised HTML WG charter for May 31
21:17:34 <trackbot> Created ACTION-212 - Draft revised HTML WG charter for May 31 [on Michael[tm] Smith - due 2012-05-11].
21:17:49 <MikeSmith> action-212 due May 312
21:17:49 <trackbot> ACTION-212 Draft revised HTML WG charter for May 31 due date now May 312
21:17:54 <MikeSmith> action-212 due May 31
21:17:54 <trackbot> ACTION-212 Draft revised HTML WG charter for May 31 due date now May 31
21:18:13 <timeless> paulc: plh, are we done?
21:18:18 <timeless> plh: i believe so
21:18:21 <timeless> [ Time check ]
21:19:35 <bryan> bryan has joined #html-wg
21:20:55 <timeless> [ Short Break ]
21:27:23 <rubys> rubys has joined #html-wg
21:28:12 <timeless> s/Short/Cookie/
21:33:07 <nonge> nonge has joined #html-wg
21:34:45 <timeless> paulc: sometimes the HTML WG doesn't have good notes from meetings
21:34:56 <timeless> ... i suspect this will be an exception
21:35:03 <timeless> ... on behalf of the HTML WG
21:35:15 <timeless> [ paulc presents a bottle of Red Wine to Josh_Soref, scribe ]
21:35:17 <timeless> [ Applause ]
21:35:21 <janina> janina has joined #html-wg
21:35:35 <timeless> Topic: ISSUE-204
21:35:37 <timeless> ISSUE-204?
21:35:37 <trackbot> ISSUE-204 -- Exempt ARIA attributes from the rule that prohibits reference to hidden elements -- open
21:35:37 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/204
21:35:57 <timeless> s/Topic: ISSUE-204/Topic: ISSUE-204 ARIA-Hidden/
21:36:04 <timeless> hober: there have been several proposals
21:36:18 <timeless> ... the major point of disagreement
21:36:22 <timeless> ... is whether or not
21:36:29 <timeless> ... the spec should mandate that the content of the individual
21:36:37 <timeless> ... element should be flattened in the Accessibility tree
21:36:42 <timeless> cyns: as far as i can tell
21:36:46 <timeless> ... the diff is hard to read
21:36:54 <timeless> ... you deleted almost the same things i deleted
21:37:00 <timeless> cyns: the options
21:37:05 <timeless> ... and we can go into which are feasible
21:37:07 <timeless> ... later
21:37:17 <timeless> ... aria-described-by/aria-labeled-by
21:37:25 <timeless> ... you could flatten it and do the name calculation
21:37:28 <timeless> ... which puts a strain
21:37:33 <timeless> ... or you could create a subtree
21:37:37 <timeless> ... out of what it's pointing to
21:37:47 <timeless> mjs: i think the other proposal doesn't specify how to do it
21:37:56 <timeless> ... which leaves it to the Aria implementer's guide
21:38:03 <timeless> hober: which avoids baking in flattening
21:38:11 <timeless> cyns: the reason flattening is called out explicitly
21:38:16 <timeless> ... what happens now for similar calculations
21:38:21 <timeless> ... is it goes into a string field
21:38:24 <timeless> ... with a certain length
21:38:29 <timeless> ... markup stripped out
21:38:39 <timeless> ... if what you point to is a complex marked up tree
21:38:42 <timeless> ... that's problematic
21:38:49 <timeless> ... but sometimes what's in there is text
21:38:52 <timeless> ... and it works well enough
21:38:59 <timeless> ... what i tried to do in my proposal
21:39:04 <timeless> ... is make clear that's how the api works
21:39:09 <timeless> ... and how it fits into the api strucutre
21:39:14 <timeless> s/strucutre/structure
21:39:30 <timeless> ... and make it clear to authors what you want in there
21:39:37 <timeless> mjs: are you saying Aria spec requires it
21:39:41 <timeless> ... or all implementations do it
21:39:48 <timeless> ... or it's fundamentally impossible to do
21:39:52 <timeless> cyns: 1 and 2 yes
21:39:55 <timeless> ... not sure about 3
21:39:59 <timeless> mjs: 3 i know it's false
21:40:02 <timeless> hober: good to know
21:40:23 <timeless> mjs: anything in dom, it's possible to expose with full semantics
21:40:25 <JF> Q+
21:40:29 <timeless> ... it's possible to put into the accessibility tree
21:40:36 <timeless> cyns: it seems like a very
21:40:42 <timeless> ... i agree it's technically possible
21:40:46 <timeless> ... it seems a strange implementation
21:40:59 <timeless> hober: my understanding is that the accessibility tree is based on the content of the render tree
21:41:08 <timeless> ... but we don't create things for elements that aren't displayed
21:41:14 <timeless> cyns: i don't think we do that for native applications
21:41:21 <timeless> ... i don't think we do that for nodes not part of the ui
21:41:26 <timeless> ... it isn't how UIA works
21:41:33 <timeless> ... it seems strange from how ATs
21:41:39 <timeless> ... and how users are used to things
21:41:50 <timeless> ... what we do now with similar constructs is "you may grab text"
21:41:54 <timeless> ... or you may do nothing
21:42:03 <timeless> hober: for us, we may grab text
21:42:08 <timeless> cyns: what does VoiceOver do with that
21:42:15 <timeless> ... is it similiar with that
21:42:21 <timeless> mjs: we don't have anything like that
21:42:26 <timeless> ... but it could work like:
21:42:31 <timeless> ... when you're on an element
21:42:38 <timeless> ... it could work the same way as if it were directly
21:42:49 <timeless> ... whether content was visible to sighted users or not
21:42:59 <timeless> ... often we're faced with content that's offscreen
21:43:18 <timeless> cyns: you have offscreen content?
21:43:26 <timeless> Josh_Soref: "skip to content" is offscreen
21:43:38 <timeless> JF: the more complex the tabable offscreen element is
21:43:45 <timeless> ... if you tab through offscreen elements
21:43:49 <timeless> ... it's a horrible UE
21:43:52 <timeless> s/UE/UX/
21:43:58 <timeless> mjs: when I mean keyboard navigation
21:44:03 <timeless> ... i do not mean tab navigation
21:44:12 <timeless> ... VoiceOver has special navigation
21:44:17 <myakura> myakura has joined #html-wg
21:44:18 <timeless> ... for character by character
21:44:20 <timeless> ... word by word
21:44:23 <timeless> ... etc
21:44:30 <timeless> ... when VoiceOver does this
21:44:44 <timeless> ... it has a box so sighted users can see what the user is hearing
21:44:53 <timeless> ... it's possible to structure stuff so it's visible on screen
21:45:04 <timeless> ... i agree focusable controls may be a separate issue
21:45:11 <timeless> ... tables, rope commands
21:45:15 <timeless> ... may be doable
21:45:27 <timeless> ... i'm not claiming we have it implemented now
21:45:31 <timeless> ... but based on my understanding of what we have
21:45:35 <timeless> ... i'd be sad if we couldn't do this
21:45:47 <cyns> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Correct_Hidden_Attribute_Section_v2
21:46:12 <timeless> s|http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Correct_Hidden_Attribute_Section_v2|-> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Correct_Hidden_Attribute_Section_v2 Correct Hidden Attribute Section v2|
21:46:39 <timeless> > User agents should not create accessible objects in the platform accessibility API tree for elements that have the hidden attribute specified.
21:46:46 <timeless> mjs: what's the justification around SHOULD NOT
21:46:53 <timeless> cyns: I don't know how to create a reasonable UI
21:46:59 <timeless> mjs: for tables
21:47:02 <timeless> ... what's the reason not to?
21:47:09 <timeless> cyns: it doesn't fit with how things work now
21:47:14 <timeless> ... it's a documenting how things work now
21:47:19 <timeless> mjs: documenting is ok
21:47:21 <timeless> ... as a warning
21:47:26 <timeless> ... but a 'should'
21:47:32 <timeless> cyns: it was focusable elements
21:47:46 <timeless> paulc: "SHOULD NOT" means "you shouldn't do it unless you have a good reason"
21:47:52 <timeless> rubys: can you flip it to 
21:47:57 <timeless> ... "Authors should not presume"
21:48:04 <timeless> cyns: maybe we could make it tighter
21:48:11 <timeless> ... I'm not sure how to build the tree in UIA
21:48:21 <timeless> mjs: i'm not sure 
21:48:30 <timeless> ... i could see how it's fair to create a warning to authors
21:48:37 <timeless> ... that requires to be understandable
21:48:44 <timeless> ... users have to understand the scemantics
21:49:01 <timeless> cyns: i think we may want to be more careful with focusable elements
21:49:06 <timeless> hober: if a couple years from now
21:49:11 <timeless> ... they did think of a good way to do it
21:49:14 <timeless> cyns: i could see that
21:49:21 <timeless> ... but i'm worried that people would think that's a good idea
21:49:31 <timeless> ... there's a worry that people spend all their time
21:49:39 <timeless> ... thinking about visual readers
21:49:48 <timeless> ... putting things offscreen as a good thing for accessibility
21:49:52 <timeless> ... is an antipattern
21:49:59 <timeless> mjs: how do you handle offscreen?
21:50:08 <timeless> cyns: keyboard focus goes offscreen
21:50:17 <timeless> ... if i find that on a microsoft site, i try to shop it from shipping
21:50:28 <timeless> mjs: it seems that if a user tabs to something offscreen
21:50:33 <timeless> ... you should temporarily show it
21:50:40 <timeless> ... if a UA can give a better experience
21:50:45 <timeless> ... i think they should be encouraged to try
21:50:54 <timeless> ... i can see the argument for not encouraging authors to try
21:50:59 <timeless> ... while they do not exist
21:51:04 <timeless> cyns: would you be comfortable with a
21:51:12 <timeless> ... "browsers may flatten, they may create a subtree"
21:51:19 <timeless> mjs: by may, that'd be fine
21:51:23 <timeless> cyns: I meant MAY
21:51:34 <timeless> mjs: it seems that should be in the aria-implementers-guide
21:51:44 <timeless> ... it seems weird to be in the html spec
21:51:52 <timeless> cyns: so if we shortened this significantly
21:51:57 <timeless> ... so hidden was exempted from
21:52:08 <timeless> ... aria-described|labeled-by
21:52:13 <timeless> ... from no-render
21:52:28 <timeless> ... and then put the rest of it in aria-implementation-guide
21:52:39 <timeless> hober: if we did that, it would be substantially closer to the other proposal
21:52:45 <timeless> cyns: what do you guys think about that?
21:52:52 <timeless> janina: i'm having trouble understanding hober 
21:53:01 <timeless> chaals: hober said that gets us closer to agreement
21:53:25 <timeless> hober: i think sicking wants us to require the full semantics to the AT
21:53:30 <timeless> s/AT/AT Tree/
21:53:35 <timeless> paulc: is that the second difference?
21:53:41 <timeless> hober: it's the same different
21:53:46 <timeless> s/different/difference/
21:53:53 <timeless> mjs: is that opinion in the change proposal?
21:54:08 <timeless> hober: the change proposals on the table do not capture sicking's desire
21:54:15 <timeless> mjs: probably because that's an ARIA requirement
21:54:27 <timeless> cyns: and no one i've spoken to would support
21:54:39 <timeless> JF: something we've said can't and won't work
21:54:44 <timeless> ... that isn't really feasible
21:54:46 <paulc> Jonas CP: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/AllowAriaReferHidden
21:54:51 <timeless> cyns: looking at the two change proposals
21:55:04 <timeless> ... we could get consensus by moving controversy to a new document
21:55:09 <timeless> JF: that just moves the rub somewhere else
21:55:23 <timeless> ... we need to clearly communicate to content authors the limitation of doing this
21:55:36 <timeless> ... we have no evidence of seeing this behavior from other browsers/OSs
21:55:44 <timeless> ... not saying this to be dismissive
21:55:49 <timeless> ... when content authors are creating content
21:55:57 <timeless> ... it's for all browsers on all platforms
21:56:04 <timeless> ... but without commitment from everyone
21:56:12 <timeless> cyns: or have UIs for how it would work
21:56:14 <timeless> mjs: a proposal
21:56:32 <timeless> ... remove the restriction from html5 on linking to hidden content
21:56:43 <timeless> ... and include a warning that many implementations may give a limited version
21:56:47 <timeless> ... including flattening text
21:57:07 <timeless> ... and the actual hard requirements on what UAs are allowed to do
21:57:17 <timeless> ... would be deferred to the ARIA specification/implementers guide
21:57:26 <timeless> JF: the change proposal that cyns presented
21:57:37 <timeless> ... was a collaboration of the ARIA members
21:57:48 <timeless> ... it'd be unfair to give a definitive answer
21:58:05 <timeless> mjs: acknowledging that different people may have different opinions
21:58:14 <timeless> cyns: i'm having a hard time channeling people
21:58:19 <timeless> ... with whom i don't agree
21:58:27 <timeless> cyns: personally... moving the discussion of flattening
21:58:36 <timeless> ... into ARIA/accessibility implementation guide
21:58:38 <timeless> ... is probably fine
21:58:51 <timeless> ... but when i suggest anything close to that, flame wars errupt
21:58:56 <timeless> janina: i think it would further delay us
21:59:00 <timeless> ... we're already 13 months delayed
21:59:15 <timeless> JF: we're often told, we want to get this guidance into the HTML5 spec
21:59:20 <timeless> ... authors want one point of reference
21:59:33 <timeless> ... so in html5 you'd say "it's ok, but go to aria to make sure it's ok"
21:59:43 <timeless> ... it's kind of like punting it to a document that will have less readership
21:59:53 <timeless> mjs: i'm suggesting the warning to authors would be in the html 5 spec
21:59:55 <timeless> q+ chaals 
22:00:12 <timeless> mjs: and then a bit to the implementers in the other document
22:00:19 <timeless> JF: and that's down to the strength of the warning
22:00:30 <timeless> ... if it's sufficiently foreboding enough
22:00:38 <timeless> ... paulc's SHOULD
22:00:42 <timeless> ... "you really shouldn't"
22:00:49 <timeless> ... there has to be a strong justification
22:00:59 <timeless> ... if we could invoke this is a warning
22:01:07 <timeless> ... or make it a SHOULD NOT
22:01:18 <timeless> ... then i think some of the more problematic responses within the larger group could be addressed
22:01:23 <timeless> q- plh
22:01:26 <timeless> q- JF
22:01:27 <timeless> ack chaals 
22:01:31 <timeless> chaals: how you put it is important
22:01:39 <timeless> ... and how you put it depends on where the platform goes
22:01:50 <mjs> Current warning to authors => "This technique should not be used for longer content that has structured text (e.g., headings, anchors, list markup, table markup, etc.), as accessible name and description calculation [WAI-ARIA] will flatten the referenced elements to plain text, losing interactivity and semantic structure."
22:01:51 <timeless> ... if MS holds a significant share of the platform for users
22:02:03 <timeless> ... then trying to drive them around by misleading authors
22:02:07 <timeless> ... is wrong
22:02:21 <timeless> ... by the same token, i'd expect and hope that ms won't sit with no flattening for 140 years
22:02:30 <timeless> ... a warning that matches a reasonable sense of expectations
22:02:36 <timeless> ... points to the aria documentation
22:02:40 <timeless> ... where it gets defined
22:02:44 <mjs> Proposed warning to authors => "This technique should not be used for longer content that has structured text (e.g., headings, anchors, list markup, table markup, etc.), because the content may be presented only as flattened plaintext. Authors should not assume that full semantics will be preserved."
22:02:49 <timeless> ... and not putting an explicit requirement that you can't do anything better
22:02:55 <mjs> q+
22:02:58 <timeless> ... does put a modicum of pressure on people to upgrade
22:03:07 <timeless> cyns: what i'm hearing is
22:03:11 <timeless> ... removing a UA SHOULD NOT
22:03:23 <timeless> ... and adding an Authors SHOULD NOT
22:03:30 <timeless> mjs: there is an Authors SHOULD NOT
22:03:44 <timeless> ... in cyns's proposal
22:04:09 <timeless> mjs:  "This technique should not be used for longer content that has structured text (e.g., headings, anchors, list markup, table markup, etc.), as accessible name and description calculation [WAI-ARIA] will flatten the referenced elements to plain text, losing interactivity and semantic structure."
22:04:14 <timeless> mjs: I suggested an alternative
22:04:21 <timeless> mjs: "This technique should not be used for longer content that has structured text (e.g., headings, anchors, list markup, table markup, etc.), because the content may be presented only as flattened plaintext. Authors should not assume that full semantics will be preserved."
22:04:36 <timeless> cyns: that seems good
22:04:46 <timeless> ... it seems like we should add something about focusable stuff
22:04:47 <chaals> [+1 to mjs' proposed text as written by mjs above.]
22:04:56 <timeless> janina: that suggests it may be ok in many circumstances
22:05:02 <timeless> ... i don't think you have that much marketshare yet
22:05:07 <timeless> ... i'm disagreeing
22:05:12 <timeless> ... there will be more breakage
22:05:20 <timeless> ... the warning is too weak
22:05:27 <timeless> ... make it stronger, that's fine
22:05:50 <timeless> cyns: did you have a suggestion?
22:05:54 <timeless> paulc: this is the chair
22:06:06 <timeless> ... in sicking's proposal
22:06:11 <timeless> ... he gives as credible evidence
22:06:15 <timeless> ... the position of Apple + Mozilla
22:06:18 <timeless> ... of what Firefox can do
22:06:26 <timeless> ... does the counter proposal discredit that as not sufficient
22:06:29 <timeless> cyns: I quoted that as well
22:06:31 <timeless> ... the quotes
22:06:39 <timeless> ... say "apple doesn't have a strong feeling either way"
22:06:46 <timeless> ... i didn't hear "we plan to do this in 18 months"
22:06:54 <timeless> JF: it's easy to say "browser can solve world peace"
22:07:07 <timeless> mjs: we don't have a strong view on author's conformance
22:07:19 <timeless> ... everyone seems to agree that it's ok to point to hidden content
22:07:31 <timeless> ... the issue is what authors should be aware of when they use the technique
22:07:46 <timeless> ... the original point to which we didn't have strong feelings is no longer a controversy
22:08:03 <chaals> [I still think pointing to hidden text is an anti-pattern, but I'm not dying on that hill]
22:08:24 <timeless> cyns: an Authors SHOULD NOT as a validation warning with appropriate text
22:08:28 <timeless> ... because it doesn't work now
22:08:36 <timeless> ... and no one thinks it will work anytime soon
22:08:48 <timeless> paulc: part of the concern is implementation plans
22:08:54 <timeless> ... if we came down to a survey
22:09:07 <timeless> ... whether cochairs would be comfortable making a decision around that grounds alone
22:09:19 <rubys> q+
22:09:20 <timeless> ... we'd be more comfortable making a decision on caution signs
22:09:27 <timeless> janina: something quantitative would help
22:09:46 <mjs> q-
22:09:48 <timeless> chaals: you can't quantify this against when we might have something in the future
22:09:51 <timeless> q?
22:10:04 <timeless> ack rubys 
22:10:12 <timeless> rubys: we're talking about modifying one or both proposals
22:10:25 <timeless> ... chairs will not craft a mix+match proposal when we go to survey
22:10:33 <timeless> ... cyns, you might expect a very strong objection
22:10:37 <timeless> ... to your proposal
22:10:43 <timeless> cyns: i'm not tied to it
22:11:06 <timeless> rubys: we might pick the other one
22:11:14 <timeless> cyns: i'm comfortable with it
22:11:22 <timeless> ... but others may take convincing
22:11:33 <timeless> paulc: maybe for HTML5 you can get an Authors MUST NOT
22:11:43 <timeless> cyns: it's the UA requirements that people object to
22:11:54 <timeless> ... do you think sicking would be ok with that
22:12:02 <plh> plh has joined #html-wg
22:12:06 <timeless> hober: i'd assume he's less concerned w/ Authoring requirements
22:12:18 <timeless> JF: i hear this as reducing the implementation sticking point
22:12:32 <timeless> cyns: this is machine testable, and a violation
22:12:39 <timeless> JF: it can be author guidance in the spec
22:12:48 <timeless> ... and WAICAG
22:13:00 <timeless> cyns: so, remove the UA requirement
22:13:05 <timeless> ... and add an Author MUST NOT
22:13:27 <timeless> cyns: not machine testable doesn't seem like a good must
22:13:36 <timeless> hober: we have lots of none machine testable
22:13:45 <timeless> mjs: MUST NOT USE v. MUST NOT RELY ON
22:13:53 <timeless> ... you aren't letting Authors
22:13:59 <timeless> cyns: that sounds like a SHOULD NOT
22:14:08 <timeless> janina: I'd be ok with that
22:14:15 <timeless> JF: We'll get there
22:14:19 <timeless> ... it won't be a walk in the park
22:14:30 <timeless> cyns: we can put the stronger text in ARIA
22:14:34 <timeless> JF: and WAICAG
22:14:47 <timeless> ... authors are going to see this as some magic token thing that will make things disappear
22:14:52 <timeless> ... today there are significant problems
22:15:01 <timeless> ... maybe down the road someday, things may get better
22:15:10 <timeless> ... we don't want to restrict browsers from getting better
22:15:17 <timeless> .... the more you can do to make the UX better
22:15:25 <timeless> s/..../.../
22:15:33 <timeless> ... there's been discussion about making things better
22:15:41 <mjs> mjs has joined #html-wg
22:15:42 <timeless> janina: otoh, today, there's an unmet need
22:15:46 <timeless> paulc: actions today?
22:15:55 <timeless> cyns: for me to redraft the details section of the proposal
22:15:58 <timeless> JF: i'll help
22:16:06 <timeless> hober: and i'll try to run it by sicking
22:16:11 <timeless> ... and maybe we'll drop the other proposal
22:16:17 <timeless> paulc: we split 204 off 30
22:16:20 <timeless> ISSUE-30?
22:16:20 <trackbot> ISSUE-30 -- Should HTML 5 include a longdesc attribute for images -- open
22:16:20 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/30
22:16:41 <timeless> paulc: if we get consensus on 204
22:16:46 <timeless> ... it unblocks ISSUE-30
22:16:53 <timeless> ... do we need to make changes to proposals on ISSUE-30
22:17:05 <timeless> cyns: i'm not sure what the proposals are on ISSUE-30
22:17:12 <timeless> ... but this is less rich than this
22:17:22 <timeless> ... since LONGDESC links to a structured document
22:17:30 <JF> q+
22:17:36 <timeless> mjs: the authors of those proposals may want time to redraft those proposals
22:17:44 <timeless> rubys: if sicking's proposal were done
22:17:50 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
22:17:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
22:17:55 <timeless> ... i can see proposals for don't use LONGDESC being enhanced
22:18:15 <timeless> paulc: if we get consensus on cyns 's proposal
22:18:21 <timeless> ... (modified)
22:18:26 <timeless> ... if we don't get consensus
22:18:28 <timeless> ... go to survye
22:18:32 <timeless> s/survye/survey/
22:18:38 <timeless> ... and sicking's is the winner
22:18:43 <timeless> ... then it's possible the 30
22:19:02 <timeless> hober: i don't think cyns's modified is much different from sicking's
22:19:07 <timeless> cyns: sicking's proposal
22:19:19 <timeless> ... suggested a structured hidden thing
22:19:24 <timeless> ... but unicorns
22:19:40 <timeless> paulc: LONGDESC does point to a structured HTML file
22:19:55 <timeless> ... but hidden with aria-described-by for a year would not
22:20:03 <tantek> what if LONGDESC pointed to data URL text/plain?
22:20:06 <mjs> mjs has joined #html-wg
22:20:08 <timeless> JF: the issue with 30 is: no exit strategy
22:20:39 <timeless> cyns: to be fair, impl of longdesc in browsers is spotty today
22:20:48 <timeless> ... a flat string today everywhere
22:20:54 <timeless> ... is better than spotty longdesc today
22:21:04 <timeless> ... what we're talking about here is easier to implement
22:21:15 <timeless> paulc: i heard cyns and JF to do a proposal
22:21:28 <timeless> hober: I'll work with sicking to review the revised proposal
22:21:41 <timeless> paulc: to make a decision of "can you live with the modified proposal"
22:21:51 <timeless> rubys: will sicking be at the CSS WG?
22:22:02 <timeless> hober: no
22:22:09 <timeless> JF: i'd like it done soon
22:23:10 <timeless> ... i can do some drafting
22:23:37 <timeless> ISSUE-184?
22:23:37 <trackbot> ISSUE-184 -- Add a data element -- open
22:23:37 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/184
22:24:22 <timeless> JF: accessibility team will mean Tue+Thu of next week
22:24:29 <timeless> ... cyns and i will work together
22:24:37 <timeless> ... i'll take driver's position
22:24:54 <timeless> ... to tech team before sicking
22:25:14 <timeless> ... by the 15th of may
22:25:34 <timeless> paulc: janina, can judy invite me to the meeting
22:25:52 <timeless> ... hober late next week in your hands
22:27:22 <timeless> ISSUE-203?
22:27:22 <trackbot> ISSUE-203 -- All Media Elements should have the ability to have both short and longer textual descriptions associated to the element -- open
22:27:22 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/203
22:27:34 <timeless> paulc: on behalf of the WG, Josh_Soref, thanks very much
22:27:44 <krisk> krisk has joined #html-wg
22:27:47 <timeless> ... i understand the french wine is much better than the California wine
22:28:08 <timeless> ... we have a meeting next week
22:28:15 <krisk> Testing Status Update -> http://www.w3c-test.org/html/tests/reporting/HTML5_Status_5_4_2012.pdf
22:28:21 <timeless> ... 8am for accessibility, and WG at 9am
22:28:28 <timeless> ... mjs: who's chairing?
22:28:31 <timeless> mjs: i can do another
22:28:45 <timeless> krisk: i can help
22:29:00 <timeless> paulc: thanks everyone
22:29:21 <timeless> ... chairs will have a proposal for media soon
22:29:31 <timeless> ... see many of you at TPAC
22:29:34 <timeless> ... thanks very much
22:29:43 <timeless> janina: thanks to MS for hosting
22:29:48 <timeless> [ Applause ]
22:29:53 <timeless> [ Adjourned ]
22:29:59 <timeless> trackbot, end telcon
22:29:59 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
22:29:59 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been F2F, Josh_Soref, MikeSmith, +1.858.677.aaaa, paulc, JF, janina, bryan, sam, Arno_, glenn, Arnaud_Braud, Paul_Cotton, Adrian_Bateman,
22:30:02 <Zakim> ... Russell_Berkoff, Peter_Peterka, Odin_Horthe_Omdal, plh, Aaron_Colwell, frankolivier, anne, hober, Wonsuk, +1.650.576.aabb, BobLund
22:30:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
22:30:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/04-html-wg-minutes.html trackbot