16:15:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webapps
16:15:01 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-irc
16:15:07 <ArtB> Chair: Art, Charles
16:15:09 <anne> anne has joined #webapps
16:15:13 <ArtB> Scribe: Josh_Soref
16:15:20 <ArtB> ScribeNick: timeless
16:15:23 <ArtB> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting
16:16:21 <ArtB> Meeting: WebApps WG f2f Meeting
16:16:47 <ArtB> Present: Art_Barstow, Charles_McCathieNevile, Josh_Soref
16:17:11 <shan> shan has joined #webapps
16:17:18 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith has joined #webapps
16:17:54 <dglazkov> dglazkov has joined #webapps
16:18:00 <aklein> aklein has joined #webapps
16:18:07 <dglazkov> Present+ Dimitri_Glazkov
16:18:13 <PaulKinlan> PaulKinlan has joined #webapps
16:18:29 <Arnaud> Present+ Arnaud_Braud
16:18:36 <aklein> Present+ Adam_Klein
16:18:52 <timeless> scribe: timeless 
16:18:52 <shan> Present+ Soonbo_Han
16:19:08 <timeless> present+ Josh_Soref
16:19:12 <ArtB> Present+ Mike_Smith
16:19:31 <timeless> s/scribe: timeless//
16:19:35 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:19:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
16:19:39 <PaulKinlan> Present+ Paul_Kinlan
16:19:43 <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
16:19:43 <Zakim> sorry, timeless, I don't know what conference this is
16:19:44 <Zakim> On IRC I see PaulKinlan, aklein, dglazkov, MikeSmith, shan, anne, RRSAgent, Zakim, ArtB, tantek, Arnaud, plh, dveditz, rogerk, davidb, Dashiva, Lachy, karl, heycam|away, kennyluck,
16:19:44 <Zakim> ... gavin, trackbot, mounir, jgraham, logbot, scottmg, krijnh, decadance, ed, lgombos, rektide, paul___irish, hober, gsnedders, Hixie, timeless, dom
16:20:09 <PaulKinlan> Present+ PaulKinlan
16:20:14 <chaals> chaals has joined #webapps
16:20:44 <chaals> zakim, this is RWC
16:20:44 <Zakim> sorry, chaals, I do not see a conference named 'RWC' in progress or scheduled at this time
16:20:47 <Travis> Travis has joined #webapps
16:20:54 <chaals> zakim, this is web
16:20:54 <Zakim> chaals, I see IA_WebApps(F2F)12:00PM in the schedule but not yet started.  Perhaps you mean "this will be web".
16:21:07 <chaals> zakim, this is IA_Webapps
16:21:07 <Zakim> chaals, I see IA_WebApps(F2F)12:00PM in the schedule but not yet started.  Perhaps you mean "this will be IA_Webapps".
16:21:21 <chaals> zakim, this will be IA_Webapps
16:21:21 <Zakim> ok, chaals; I see IA_WebApps(F2F)12:00PM scheduled to start 21 minutes ago
16:21:57 <Russell_Berkoff> Russell_Berkoff has joined #webapps
16:22:28 <plh> Present+ plh
16:22:30 <Travis> Present+ Travis_Leithead
16:22:30 <MikeSmith> present+ MikeSmith 
16:22:31 <chaals> zakim, who is here?
16:22:31 <Zakim> IA_WebApps(F2F)12:00PM has not yet started, chaals
16:22:32 <Zakim> On IRC I see Russell_Berkoff, Travis, chaals, PaulKinlan, aklein, dglazkov, MikeSmith, shan, anne, RRSAgent, Zakim, ArtB, tantek, Arnaud, plh, dveditz, rogerk, davidb, Dashiva,
16:22:32 <Zakim> ... Lachy, karl, heycam|away, kennyluck, gavin, trackbot, mounir, jgraham, logbot, scottmg, krijnh, decadance, ed, lgombos, rektide, paul___irish, hober, gsnedders, Hixie,
16:22:32 <rniwa> rniwa has joined #webapps
16:22:33 <Zakim> ... timeless, dom
16:22:34 <anne> Present+ anne
16:22:36 <glenn> glenn has joined #webapps
16:22:43 <anne> Present+ odinho
16:22:50 <timeless> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:23:02 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:23:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
16:23:10 <glenn> Present+ glenn
16:23:14 <krisk> krisk has joined #webapps
16:23:27 <tross> tross has joined #webapps
16:23:29 <timeless> Topic: Welcome and Agenda
16:23:53 <rafaelw> rafaelw has joined #webapps
16:24:00 <Russell_Berkoff> Present+ Russell_Berkoff(Samsung)
16:24:16 <rafaelw> Present+ Rafael_Weinstein
16:24:39 <tross> Present+ Tony Ross
16:25:01 <krisk> Present+ Kris Krueger (krisk)
16:25:16 <timeless> ArtB: When you do introductions, please indicate if you are not a WG member
16:25:30 <timeless> plh: as the charter has been reupped, most people are not WG members
16:25:39 <ericu> ericu has joined #webapps
16:25:49 <timeless> chaals: if you were a WG member and haven't reupped, please nag your AC rep
16:25:54 <ericu> Present+ EricU
16:26:00 <timeless> ArtB: Josh_Soref is a fantastic scribe, he works for RIM
16:26:02 <timeless> ... RIM is not a member
16:26:12 <plh> --> http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/42538/status WG participation status
16:26:20 <timeless> ... when you speak for the first time, please introduce yourself
16:26:21 <scheib> scheib has joined #webapps
16:26:39 <timeless> chaals: when Josh_Soref says stop, you have to stop, because you'll be lost otherwise
16:26:45 <scheib> Present+ Vincent_Scheib
16:26:47 <timeless> chaals: I'm chaals, Opera, I'm a chair
16:26:57 <timeless> ArtB: I'm ArtB, from Nokia, I'm a chair
16:27:16 <timeless> PaulKinlan: I'm PaulKinlan from Google, observer
16:27:31 <timeless> ericu: I'm ericu from Google, I'm a member
16:27:39 <timeless> glenn: glenn, Cox, member
16:27:56 <chaals> s/observer/registered as observer, now member/
16:28:09 <timeless> Dan_Druta: Dan Druta, AT&T, member
16:28:31 <timeless> Arnaud: Arnaud Braud, France Telecom
16:28:46 <timeless> Bryan: Bryan Sullivan, AT&T, member
16:28:51 <timeless> s/Telecom/Telecom, member/
16:28:56 <bryan> bryan has joined #webapps
16:29:04 <timeless> Russell_Berkoff: Russell Berkoff, Samsung, Observer
16:29:07 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:29:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
16:29:12 <timeless> aklein: Adam Klein, Google, Observer
16:29:13 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log Public
16:29:23 <timeless> rafaelw: Rafael Weinstein, Google, Observer
16:29:33 <timeless> tross: Tony Ross, Microsoft, Member
16:29:52 <timeless> rniwa: Ryosuke Niwa, Google, Member
16:30:05 <timeless> MikeSmith: Mike Smith, W3C Team, Member
16:30:09 <bryan> present+ Bryan_Sullivan
16:30:10 <rniwa_> rniwa_ has joined #webapps
16:30:10 <timeless> ... the first one to rejoin
16:30:42 <timeless> paulc: Paul Cotton, Microsoft, Chair of HTML WG, your host
16:30:48 <timeless> anne: Anne, Opera, Member
16:31:13 <timeless> ordinho: Odin Horthe Omdal, Opera, Member
16:31:26 <timeless> Travis: Travis Leithead, Microsoft, Member
16:31:34 <DanD> DanD has joined #webapps
16:31:53 <timeless> shan: Soonbo Han, LG Electronics, just joined [and was dropped by recharter]
16:32:02 <timeless> ArtB: there's an Action for someone to bug ACs for rejoins
16:32:10 <chaals> ACTION: chaals to bug AC reps of ex-members to re-join after new charter
16:32:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-643 - Bug AC reps of ex-members to re-join after new charter [on Charles McCathieNevile - due 2012-05-08].
16:32:31 <timeless> magnus: Magnus Olsson, Ericsson, Member (need to rejoin)
16:32:40 <timeless> krisk: Kris K, Microsoft, Member
16:32:45 <magnus> magnus has joined #webapps
16:33:01 <timeless> plh: Philipe Le Hegaret, W3C Team, Microsoft
16:33:14 <timeless> scheib: Vincent Scheib, Google, Member
16:33:26 <plh> s/, Microsoft/, Member/
16:33:27 <timeless> dglazkov: Dimitri Glazkov, Google, Member
16:33:43 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:33:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
16:34:06 <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:34:06 <Zakim> IA_WebApps(F2F)12:00PM has not yet started, MikeSmith
16:34:07 <Zakim> On IRC I see magnus, DanD, rniwa, bryan, scheib, ericu, rafaelw, tross, krisk, glenn, Russell_Berkoff, Travis, chaals, PaulKinlan, aklein, dglazkov, MikeSmith, shan, anne,
16:34:07 <Zakim> ... RRSAgent, Zakim, ArtB, tantek, Arnaud, plh, dveditz, rogerk, davidb, Dashiva, Lachy, karl, heycam|away, kennyluck, gavin, trackbot, mounir, jgraham, logbot, scottmg, krijnh,
16:34:09 <Zakim> ... decadance, ed, lgombos, rektide, paul___irish, hober, gsnedders, Hixie, timeless, dom
16:34:18 <MikeSmith> Zakim, start meeting
16:34:18 <Zakim> I don't understand 'start meeting', MikeSmith
16:34:31 <MikeSmith> Zakim, list
16:34:31 <Zakim> I see Team_(hcls)14:28Z, SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM active
16:34:33 <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are Team_(a11y-bugs)16:00Z, SW_RIF()11:00AM, Team_(aapi)16:03Z, XML_ET-TF()11:00AM, IA_WebApps(F2F)12:00PM
16:34:37 <glenn> Present+ Glenn_Adams (glenn)
16:34:42 <timeless> s/Kris Krueger (krisk)/Kris_Krueger_(krisk)/
16:34:52 <DanD> Present+ Dan_Druta
16:34:55 <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
16:34:57 <timeless> s/Glenn_Adams (glenn)/Glenn_Adams_(glenn)/
16:34:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:35:00 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be DOM3
16:35:00 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
16:35:01 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
16:35:01 <trackbot> Date: 01 May 2012
16:35:04 <magnus> present Magnus_Olsson (magnus)
16:35:05 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:35:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
16:35:11 <timeless> Topic: Agenda
16:35:16 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:35:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
16:35:19 <timeless> ArtB: We always preallocate an item or two
16:35:27 <timeless> ... and then figure out the rest as we meet
16:35:36 <timeless> ... we have a couple of topics
16:35:47 <timeless> ... we had penciled Intents for 1-2pm
16:35:58 <timeless> ... James was going to manage that
16:36:21 <timeless> s/James/James_Hawkins/
16:36:46 <timeless> paulc: The preallocated name badges were to help the secretary
16:36:51 <Travis> Travis has joined #webapps
16:36:52 <magnus> present+ Magnus_Olsson
16:36:52 <timeless> ... just register at the desk
16:36:57 <timeless> ... if you have problems, let me know
16:37:16 <timeless> ArtB: Here is the list of potential topics
16:37:19 <timeless> ... most of them I added
16:37:25 <timeless> ... (in alphabetical order)
16:37:32 <timeless> ... and then dglazkov added components
16:37:39 <timeless> ... and bryan added server sent events
16:37:41 <anne> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting
16:37:49 <anne> ^^ meeting agenda
16:37:52 <MikeSmith> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting
16:37:54 <timeless> ArtB: WebAppsSec has CORS on its agenda for tomorrow morning
16:38:04 <timeless> ... they had allocated half an hour for LC CORS
16:38:11 <Velmont> Velmont has joined #webapps
16:38:16 <MikeSmith> Jonas Sicking has entered the fray
16:38:17 <timeless> ... 9:45-10:15
16:38:29 <timeless> present+ Jonas_Sicking
16:38:42 <timeless> chaals: How many people are interested in CORS?
16:38:50 <timeless> [ Quite a few hands rise ]
16:39:01 <timeless> chaals: does anyone object to bringing them in here?
16:39:05 <timeless> [ No objections ]
16:39:17 <timeless> ACTION ArtB to talk to WebAppsSec about a joint slot
16:39:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-644 - Talk to WebAppsSec about a joint slot [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].
16:39:25 <timeless> s/slot/slot for CORS LC/
16:39:30 <timeless> chaals: Welcome sicking
16:39:57 <timeless> sicking: Jonas_Sicking, I'm the late jonas sicking, Mozilla. Not The Late Jonas Sicking, just late
16:40:10 <timeless> chaals: Any other topics not in the wiki?
16:40:27 <timeless> scheib: I spoke briefly with ArtB 
16:40:36 <timeless> ... I'm the editor of the Pointer Block specification
16:40:40 <timeless> ... i'm new to editing
16:40:47 <timeless> ... it's just been added to the charter
16:40:50 <timeless> q+ chaals 
16:40:58 <dglazkov> s/Pointer Block/Pointer Lock/
16:41:02 <timeless> ArtB: I think it would be useful for new specs that have been added
16:41:13 <timeless> ... that people are starting to implement
16:41:36 <timeless> chaals: I might put looking at the Charter/Schedule/New Specs
16:41:42 <timeless> ... either at the beginning. or at the end
16:41:51 <timeless> ... any preference?
16:42:00 <timeless> anne: it might be good to put them at the beginning
16:42:06 <timeless> bryan: I have a conflict for 11-1
16:42:14 <odinho> (my PC suddenly working after taking it apart and putting it together again)
16:42:14 <timeless> chaals: we won't put push there
16:42:23 <timeless> s/(my PC suddenly working after taking it apart and putting it together again)//
16:42:29 <timeless> chaals: going around the room
16:42:43 <MikeSmith> list of specs is at http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/PubStatus#API_Specifications
16:42:44 <timeless> ... we've got less gaps here (today), than there (tomorrow)
16:42:53 <timeless> dglazkov: Shadow DOM, HTML Templates
16:43:19 <timeless> chaals: I'll put bryan (Push/SMS) to 2:30-3 (today)
16:43:31 <timeless> ... and Web Components for 11:15-12:30 (today)
16:43:51 <timeless> dglazkov: my items is procedural ... gauging temperature
16:43:59 <timeless> chaals: IndexedDB
16:44:13 <timeless> ericu: we have a request from someone from Google who can't be here today
16:44:16 <timeless> ... can it be tomorrow?
16:44:19 <timeless> chaals: Yes we can
16:44:31 <timeless> ArtB: i'd like a slot for Hixie 's 4 CRs
16:44:41 <timeless> ... where we are, can we get someone to fill in the gaps
16:44:48 <timeless> ... how do we manage future work
16:44:48 <sicking> sicking has joined #webapps
16:44:51 <timeless> ... v. getting to rec
16:44:56 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:44:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
16:45:15 <timeless> chaals: "Hixie's hand-me-downs" 11:30-12:30 (tomorrow)
16:45:41 <timeless> Travis: 10 minutes for DOM3 events/DOM4 from that slot?
16:45:46 <timeless> chaals: is that going to be short?
16:45:50 <timeless> anne: we had the longer one last time
16:45:54 <timeless> Travis: it should be short
16:46:00 <timeless> anne: we need 15 minutes for Full Screen
16:46:03 <timeless> ... ArtB mentioned that
16:46:14 <timeless> chaals: the Late Douglass Sheppers
16:46:29 <timeless> chaals: people who have not introduced yourselves
16:46:34 <timeless> ... please introduced yourselves
16:46:45 <ArtB> Present+ Doug_Schepers
16:47:01 <ArtB> Present+ Tantek_Celik
16:47:04 <timeless> shepazu: Doug Schepers, W3C Team Contact, Member
16:47:28 <ArtB> Present+ Ted_OConnor
16:47:32 <tantek> tantek has joined #webapps
16:47:38 <timeless> tantek: Tantek Celik, Mozilla, Observer
16:47:43 <gbillock> gbillock has joined #webapps
16:47:45 <ArtB> Present+ Jonas_Sicking
16:47:57 <timeless> ted: Ted O'Connor, Apple, Member
16:48:07 <timeless> s/Sheppers/Schepers/
16:48:23 <timeless> anne: Is the Stream API that's an extension to XHR going anywhere?
16:48:29 <timeless> ... is the editor here?
16:48:54 <hober> s/ted/hober/
16:49:06 <ArtB> Present+ Greg_Billock
16:49:21 <timeless> gbillock: Greg Billock, Google, Observer
16:49:46 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:49:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
16:50:00 <timeless> s/-->/->/
16:50:09 <timeless> MikeSmith: please put the IME API
16:50:16 <timeless> chaals: i'll try to leave space for breaks
16:50:23 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:50:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
16:50:36 <timeless> chaals: how many people have read the new charter?
16:50:42 <timeless> [ ~5 hands ]
16:50:50 <timeless> chaals: 4 of us were lying
16:51:06 <timeless> shepazu: I don't think chaals read it, and he wrote it
16:51:06 <mattkelly> mattkelly has joined #webapps
16:51:26 <timeless> bryan: the link on the webapps page is to the old charter
16:51:36 <anne> charter: http://www.w3.org/2012/webapps/charter/
16:51:50 <timeless> Josh_Soref: the main webapps page is unusable
16:52:09 <timeless> bryan: the w3c pages don't work well on iPads
16:52:10 <timeless> shepazu: Action bryan to buy me an iPad
16:52:33 <timeless> chaals: Action bryan to buy everyone an iPad
16:52:49 <timeless> bryan: the style sheet is generally bad
16:53:28 <timeless> chaals: who's driving the screen?
16:53:30 <timeless> ArtB: I am
16:53:45 <timeless> [ ArtB projects PubStatus ]
16:54:42 <timeless> Topic: Charter/Pub Status
16:54:44 <MikeSmith> -> http://www.w3.org/2012/webapps/charter/ new WebApps charter
16:54:50 <timeless> ArtB: we have over 700 people subscribed to our list
16:54:58 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:54:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
16:54:59 <timeless> ... of those, only 30-40 people are really active
16:55:12 <timeless> ... i like to keep pub status accurate
16:55:28 <timeless> glenn: I have a comment to shepazu
16:55:29 <plh> -> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting#Agenda_May_1 Agenda for today
16:55:45 <timeless> ... it might be helpful to say XHR subsumes ....
16:55:52 <timeless> shepazu: can we make emmandations?
16:55:55 <timeless> plh: nope
16:55:58 <mattkelly> mattkelly has joined #webapps
16:56:06 <timeless> chaals: CORS
16:56:11 <timeless> ... we'll look at this tomorrow
16:56:30 <timeless> anne: I don't see how it's a plan
16:56:43 <timeless> [ the label for CORS says "LC Period ends 1-May-2012" ]
16:56:50 <timeless> anne: but the statement is accurate
16:56:56 <timeless> ... there have been no comments raised
16:57:03 <timeless> ... there was one "we should design this differently"
16:57:12 <timeless> ... there was a comment about making it more performant on mobiles
16:57:19 <timeless> ... that was related to caching
16:57:34 <timeless> chaals: do you expect a second version
16:57:45 <timeless> anne: if we tinker with caching, then we'd need a second version
16:57:52 <timeless> q?
16:58:13 <timeless> anne: there's also From-Origin (the opposite of CORS)
16:58:18 <DanD> DanD has joined #webapps
16:58:22 <chaals> q-
16:58:24 <timeless> anne: there are long term plans re: merging CORS + fetching
16:58:42 <timeless> shepazu: you should talk about that in the slot
16:59:00 <timeless> chaals: If you're speaking, you need to speak loud and to the center of the room
16:59:05 <timeless> anne: we can't fix all the bugs
16:59:11 <timeless> ArtB: so move to CR?
16:59:17 <timeless> anne: there have been no LC comments
16:59:18 <mattur> mattur has joined #webapps
16:59:26 <timeless> chaals: we expect to move to CR in two weeks?
16:59:34 <timeless> chaals: Clipboard APIs and Events
16:59:54 <timeless> ... holvard stein is not here
16:59:55 <timeless> ... is anyone following that closely enough?
17:00:05 <timeless> [ no ]
17:00:15 <timeless> ArtB: do we know implementation status?
17:00:17 <tantek> One request for the new WebApps charter (starting July 1 2012 presumably) - please switch to using the W3C wiki (instead of webapps wg-only wiki) : http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/
17:00:22 <chaals> s/holvard/halvord/
17:00:26 <timeless> anne: there's implementations
17:00:33 <timeless> ... but they have differences
17:00:45 <MikeSmith> q+ to ask if somebody wants to give update about plans for Quoata API spec
17:00:48 <timeless> rniwa: depending on platforms, there are variations
17:01:11 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #webapps
17:01:14 <timeless> ... there are issues involving determining Same-Origin
17:01:23 <timeless> ... affecting what can/should be stripped
17:01:27 <timeless> ... it might be needed
17:01:33 <timeless> chaals: so that's work in progress
17:01:41 <timeless> anne: there's an attribute for secure usage?
17:01:53 <timeless> chaals: CORS - testing
17:01:58 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #webapps
17:01:59 <timeless> ... and test facilitator, and test suite?
17:02:04 <timeless> odinho: me
17:02:10 <timeless> chaals: what's the status of the test suite?
17:02:15 <timeless> odinho: for the test suite
17:02:22 <timeless> ... i've been reading through the tests that are there
17:02:35 <timeless> ... i've incorporated the things that are missing into Opera's Test Suite
17:02:42 <timeless> ... but i haven't gotten entirely through the WebKit tests
17:02:50 <timeless> chaals: and that hasn't been sent back to the group
17:03:02 <timeless> krisk: tests that are submitted are a wide range
17:03:06 <timeless> ... we should go through them
17:03:18 <timeless> sicking: we have a couple of tests that are pretty big
17:03:25 <timeless> ... but they won't run anywhere else
17:03:30 <timeless> ... would you like us to submit those
17:03:37 <timeless> ... a lot of the tests are expressed as data
17:03:51 <timeless> ... you could write a new wrapper around it
17:03:55 <timeless> odinho: i've looked at it
17:04:07 <timeless> s/else/else (they use "yield")
17:04:17 <timeless> chaals: I'm trying to get a bird's eye view
17:04:30 <timeless> ... summary: odinho is looking at it others are working on it
17:04:40 <timeless> ... is there a test coordinator for Clipboard APIs
17:04:48 <timeless> rniwa: I don't think so
17:04:51 <timeless> ... how would we test it?
17:04:59 <plh> I think it would be good for mozilla to submit what they have, and we figure out in the longer run how to modify them
17:05:04 <timeless> ... it can't be from the web page
17:05:09 <timeless> ... so it has to be manual
17:05:20 <timeless> shepazu: so you define manual tests
17:05:39 <timeless> anne: there's a WATIA framework
17:05:53 <anne> Watir: http://watir.com/
17:05:55 <timeless> chaals: don't sign up to do something if you don't have the bandwidth for it
17:06:01 <timeless> s/WATIA/WATIR/
17:06:15 <timeless> s|Watir: http://watir.com/|-> http://watir.com/ Watir|
17:06:18 <timeless> chaals: DOM4
17:06:22 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:06:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
17:06:33 <timeless> anne: the Plan statement (for DOM4) isn't quite correct
17:06:39 <timeless> ... at some point we'll add new features
17:06:42 <timeless> ... better event registration
17:06:47 <timeless> ... extending ClassList
17:07:03 <timeless> ... varadic? arguments
17:07:15 <timeless> chaals: do we push DOM4 through and start DOM5
17:07:23 <timeless> ... what's the rush to get DOM4 finished
17:07:26 <plh> q+
17:07:38 <timeless> anne: you could push DOM4 through and work on DOM5
17:07:44 <timeless> ack MikeSmith 
17:07:44 <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to ask if somebody wants to give update about plans for Quoata API spec
17:08:05 <timeless> s/Quoata/Quota/
17:08:21 <timeless> ... but we don't have a way to manage forks (maintaining DOM4 and working on DOM5)
17:08:36 <timeless> plh: we can't link to an unstable thing from a spec
17:08:41 <mattkelly> mattkelly has joined #webapps
17:09:05 <timeless> chaals: that discussion is about w3c process
17:09:06 <timeless> ... that
17:09:14 <R_Berkoff> R_Berkoff has joined #webapps
17:09:15 <timeless> s/that/that's out of scope for this WG/
17:09:22 <timeless> anne: i know there are people that want it
17:09:26 <timeless> ... but i have limited bandwidth
17:09:39 <timeless> ... we could publish dom4 now
17:09:45 <timeless> ... it's way better than dom3
17:09:54 <timeless> chaals: Adrian Bateman, Microsoft, Member
17:10:00 <ArtB> Present+ Adrian_Bateman
17:10:00 <timeless> present+ Adrian_Bateman
17:10:06 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:10:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
17:10:23 <timeless> Travis: only the WebPerf WG has requested to link to DOM4
17:10:30 <timeless> plh: a bunch of specs want to
17:10:46 <timeless> rniwa: there's demand to deprecate DOM Mutation events (DOM3)
17:10:59 <timeless> ... i think mozilla is planning to unprefix the replacement
17:11:17 <timeless> chaals: it sounds like it would be good for the chairs to find someone with the bandwidth to branch of DOM4 and stabalize it
17:11:26 <timeless> ... is that someone standing up to volunteer?
17:11:31 <timeless> ... thank you very much Tantek
17:11:48 <timeless> ACTION ArtB to find someone to branch DOM4 and publish
17:11:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-645 - Find someone to branch DOM4 and publish [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].
17:12:12 <timeless> anne: if you make the CR reqs loose, we can do it fairly quickly
17:12:21 <timeless> ArtB: is anyone interested in helping with that task?
17:12:22 <timeless> [ Silence ]
17:12:35 <timeless> chaals: don't worry anne, we'll come back and ask you again
17:12:44 <timeless> ... until you come up with the right answer, which is yes
17:12:58 <timeless> Travis: ArtB, please show PubStatus wiki page
17:13:11 <timeless> [ ArtB captures need to fork DOM4 for stable+publishing ]
17:13:13 <anne> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/PubStatus
17:13:20 <anne> ^^ page on screen
17:13:21 <adrianba> adrianba has joined #webapps
17:13:44 <timeless> s|http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/PubStatus|-> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/PubStatus WebApps Pub Status (on screen)|
17:13:48 <timeless> s/^^ page on screen//
17:14:06 <timeless> Travis: bugzilla database is the prime spot for tracking (DOM3 Events)
17:14:21 <timeless> ... i think we should issue another LCWD
17:14:29 <timeless> chaals: DOM Parsing + Serialization
17:14:37 <timeless> anne: the HTML WG might or might not work on it
17:14:43 <timeless> chaals: it's in our charter
17:14:59 <timeless> paulc: the CfC for HTMLWG:ISSUE-198 closes today
17:15:15 <timeless> anne: in particular, if it closes, it will be forked from the html
17:15:22 <timeless> ... and someone from microsoft will publish it
17:15:36 <timeless> chaals: despite the fact that it's in our charter, we don't know if it will happen in our group
17:15:40 <timeless> ... is that right paulc?
17:15:47 <timeless> ... my sense was that we would do it in our group
17:15:53 <timeless> anne: no, they wanted it in the html wg
17:15:58 <timeless> paulc: i'd have to do the research
17:16:13 <timeless> ... i don't think HTMLWG:issue-198 speaks to where it would be done
17:16:30 <timeless> ACTION chaals to talk to paulc about where Parsing+Serialization work is done
17:16:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-646 - Talk to paulc about where Parsing+Serialization work is done [on Charles McCathieNevile - due 2012-05-08].
17:16:42 <timeless> chaals: Element Traversal is DONE
17:16:52 <timeless> ... File API
17:17:05 <timeless> sicking: the pub status for File API looks right
17:17:12 <timeless> ... we can possibly do it in Q2
17:17:16 <timeless> chaals: do we expect Q3
17:17:22 <timeless> ... let's say we expect it in Q3
17:17:28 <timeless> ... directories and systems
17:17:33 <timeless> ericu: that's all correct
17:17:40 <timeless> chaals: From-Origin Header
17:17:46 <timeless> anne: I don't think there's been much uptake
17:17:49 <timeless> ... drop it, i guess
17:17:57 <timeless> ... i've addressed all the comments
17:18:01 <timeless> ... there haven't been other comments
17:18:11 <timeless> ... I don't think anyone implemented it
17:18:29 <timeless> ... the idea was to prevent people from using CORS in places for which it wasn't quite intended
17:18:35 <timeless> ... but they started doing that anyway
17:18:44 <timeless> chaals: so that has no one to take it forward
17:18:47 <timeless> ... does anyone want it?
17:18:50 <timeless> ... it's up for grabs
17:18:56 <timeless> anne: i'm happy to continue editing it
17:19:07 <timeless> ... but if no one is going to implement it, then there's not much point
17:19:18 <timeless> chaals: let's start a CfC to publish it as a note
17:19:29 <timeless> ... if that doesn't shake anyone out, then park it as a note
17:19:42 <ArtB> ACTION: Art start a CfC to stop work on From-Origin spec
17:19:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-647 - Start a CfC to stop work on From-Origin spec [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].
17:19:43 <timeless> ACTION ArtB to start CfC to publish From-Origin as a note
17:19:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-648 - Start CfC to publish From-Origin as a note [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].
17:20:02 <timeless> bryan: I understand technically what it was intended to do
17:20:07 <timeless> ... and i understand it was a good idea
17:20:18 <timeless> ... but i'd like to understand how CORS stands if we don't have From-Origin
17:20:25 <timeless> chaals: Full Screen
17:20:28 <plh> q+
17:20:31 <timeless> ... do we have a test coordinator?
17:20:34 <timeless> anne: no
17:20:37 <timeless> chaals: ok, so we need one
17:21:01 <timeless> WonSuk: WonSuk Lee, Samsung, Member
17:21:05 <ArtB> Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
17:21:18 <timeless> ack plh 
17:21:37 <timeless> plh: From-Origin is in the WebAppsSec Charter
17:21:40 <adrianba> q+
17:21:42 <timeless> ... so we should talk to them
17:21:52 <timeless> ArtB: i didn't think it was a joint item
17:22:04 <timeless> plh: we can talk to them tomorrow
17:22:31 <timeless> adrianba: Fullscreen...
17:22:34 <timeless> ... is it two specs?
17:22:46 <timeless> ... there's a CSS bit
17:22:53 <timeless> tantek: it will be managed together
17:23:00 <timeless> ArtB: how close is it to somewhere?
17:23:30 <ArtB> ACTION: Art start a CfC to publish a FPWD of Fullscreen spec; coordinate with CSS WG
17:23:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-649 - Start a CfC to publish a FPWD of Fullscreen spec; coordinate with CSS WG [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].
17:23:44 <timeless> chaals: we expect a FPWD this Q
17:23:48 <timeless> ... Gamepad
17:24:00 <timeless> scheib: The Gamepad editor is Scott Brown, from Google
17:24:08 <timeless> ... the draft has been stable for the last little wihle
17:24:12 <timeless> s/wihle/while/
17:24:16 <timeless> ... chrome is behind a flag
17:24:26 <timeless> ... I believe firefox is soon to ship without a flag
17:24:34 <timeless> ... i don't see anything blocking
17:24:40 <timeless> plh: publish as LC?
17:24:46 <timeless> shepazu: FPLC?
17:24:49 <timeless> ... it's kind of funny
17:24:52 <timeless> chaals: you can do that
17:24:55 <timeless> ... full screen might do the same
17:25:02 <ArtB> ACTION: Art start CfC for FPWD + LCWD of Gamepad spec
17:25:02 <trackbot> Created ACTION-650 - Start CfC for FPWD + LCWD of Gamepad spec [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].
17:25:15 <scheib> s/Scott Brown/Scott Graham/
17:25:32 <timeless> shepazu: why don't we have a session to do them
17:25:32 <Wonsuk> Wonsuk has joined #webapps
17:25:38 <timeless> chaals: Indexed DB
17:25:41 <timeless> ... we have a test suite
17:25:44 <timeless> ... it's on the agenda
17:25:48 <timeless> ... anything to say?
17:25:48 <anne> fwiw, Gamepad is not ready for LC
17:25:54 <anne> at least https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/gamepad/raw-file/default/gamepad.html is not
17:26:03 <timeless> sicking: i don't think there's much to do
17:26:06 <timeless> chaals: IME?
17:26:09 <timeless> ... MikeSmith ?
17:26:14 <anne> e.g. GamepadEvent does not inherit from Event at the moment and does not define a constructor
17:26:20 <timeless> MikeSmith: do you need a Test Facilitator?
17:26:24 <timeless> chaals: yes, thanks
17:26:28 <timeless> MikeSmith: i'm happy to do it
17:26:43 <timeless> chaals: we need a FPWD
17:26:57 <ArtB> ACTION: Art start CfC to publish FPWD of IME spec
17:26:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-651 - Start CfC to publish FPWD of IME spec [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].
17:27:09 <timeless> chaals: anyone following Java bindings for WebIDL?
17:27:18 <timeless> anne: i don't know anyone doing it
17:27:22 <timeless> chaals: i used to
17:27:27 <timeless> ... pointer lock?
17:27:29 <anne> s/anne:/travis:/
17:27:36 <timeless> scheib: I'm the editor
17:27:44 <timeless> chaals: do you have a test faciliator?
17:27:49 <timeless> scheib: i don't know
17:27:56 <timeless> chaals: it's someone who commits to getting test
17:28:00 <ArtB> ACTION: Art start CfC for Pointer spec
17:28:00 <timeless> s/test/tests/
17:28:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-652 - Start CfC for Pointer spec [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].
17:28:03 <timeless> ... you can do it yourself
17:28:06 <komoroske> komoroske has joined #webapps
17:28:08 <timeless> scheib: i'll probably do it myself
17:28:12 <timeless> ... i'm not sure of the timeline
17:28:18 <timeless> chaals: Progress Events
17:28:25 <timeless> ... waiting on implementations
17:28:29 <timeless> anne: there's a test suite
17:28:52 <timeless> ... Ms2ger wrote tests that end up testing WebIDL
17:28:57 <timeless> ... which people get wrong
17:29:08 <timeless> ... the test suite doesn't test dispatch
17:29:12 <timeless> ... just the interface
17:29:16 <timeless> chaals: status?
17:29:24 <timeless> anne: when is Opera going to pass the test suite?
17:29:38 <mattkelly> mattkelly has joined #webapps
17:29:41 <timeless> chaals: Quota
17:30:11 <rniwa> kinuko yasuda
17:30:18 <timeless> MikeSmith: I thought Kinuko Yasuda was working on it
17:30:27 <timeless> s/kinuko yasuda//
17:30:40 <timeless> chaals: and that doesn't have a test facilitator
17:30:49 <timeless> ... looks like we need a lot of test facilitators
17:30:54 <timeless> ArtB: yeah, a lot of holes
17:30:57 <timeless> chaals: selectors
17:31:01 <timeless> ... it's waiting on me
17:31:05 <timeless> ... it's waiting on WebIDL
17:31:10 <timeless> ... as WebIDL is going to CR
17:31:16 <timeless> ... I think Selectors can go to PR
17:31:23 <timeless> ... the test facilitator should be me
17:31:30 <timeless> plh: we should have a link to the interop report
17:31:40 <timeless> ... expect an advancement to PR to Q2
17:31:54 <timeless> ... then it blocks again until WebIDL moves forward
17:32:06 <timeless> s/... expect/chaals expect/
17:32:11 <timeless> s/chaals/chaals:/
17:32:23 <timeless> chaals: Server Sent Events
17:32:35 <timeless> ArtB: we published a LC last week
17:32:38 <timeless> ... we have 3 weeks
17:32:43 <timeless> ... i think there was a comment last week
17:32:56 <timeless> glenn: there was a comment about infinite reconnects
17:33:02 <timeless> chaals: we have comments
17:33:09 <timeless> ... i think everyone's had the same issue
17:33:28 <timeless> ArtB: the only tests i know of are Opera's
17:33:31 <timeless> ... can you submit them?
17:33:37 <timeless> odinho: yeah, we can
17:33:57 <timeless> chaals: Shadow DOM
17:34:02 <timeless> dglazkov: been working on spec
17:34:07 <timeless> ... we have a test suite
17:34:15 <timeless> ... dominic has been doing them
17:34:21 <timeless> ... the spec is fairly stable
17:34:29 <timeless> ... i was going to ask about moving it to WD
17:34:36 <timeless> chaals: the procedure for moving to FPWD
17:34:38 <timeless> ... or LC
17:34:53 <timeless> ... is: as an editor, you write to the chairs and say "i think we're ready"
17:35:02 <ArtB> ACTION: Art start a CfC to publish a FPWD of Shadow DOM
17:35:02 <trackbot> Created ACTION-653 - Start a CfC to publish a FPWD of Shadow DOM [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].
17:35:03 <timeless> ... we write to the group asking for CfC
17:35:31 <timeless> ArtB: the thing about FPWD is that it starts a call for IP exclusions
17:35:41 <timeless> ... it's good for the feature set to be defined at a high level
17:35:49 <timeless> ... so the ip guys can look at that
17:35:54 <timeless> dglazkov: we're well past it
17:36:04 <timeless> chaals: in that case, we should [already] have a FPWD
17:36:10 <timeless> ... and we'll do that with you
17:36:15 <timeless> dglazkov: it's on the web site
17:36:20 <timeless> chaals: URL
17:36:24 <timeless> MikeSmith: looking at anne 
17:36:38 <timeless> anne: I'm working on encodings
17:36:42 <dglazkov> s/on the web site/well pas that point/
17:36:44 <timeless> ... adam was editing, then mike
17:36:49 <timeless> s/pas that/past/that/
17:37:01 <timeless> ArtB: there's a warning from adam
17:37:15 <timeless> MikeSmith: we need to look through the tests
17:37:27 <timeless> ... next month we can look at it
17:37:34 <timeless> ... we could publish a FPWD now
17:37:37 <timeless> ... I can put it together
17:37:54 <ArtB> ACTION: Art start a CfC for FPWD of URL spec (Mike to be lead Editor)
17:37:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-654 - Start a CfC for FPWD of URL spec (Mike to be lead Editor) [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].
17:37:58 <timeless> chaals: FPWD needs to lay out what the thing does, which we're at
17:38:02 <timeless> chaals: Screen Orientation
17:38:04 <timeless> ... aka Screen Lock
17:38:07 <timeless> ... view something
17:38:19 <timeless> s/something/orientation/
17:38:29 <MikeSmith> s/Mike to be lead Editor/Mike to not be lead Editor but will help to drive it/g
17:38:35 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:38:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
17:38:52 <timeless> ArtB: Mounir is working on it
17:39:37 <timeless> [ plh, the Frenchman, properly pronounces his name, and asks how there could be a problem pronouncing it ]
17:39:41 <timeless> sicking: i don't know
17:39:57 <Wonsuk> Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
17:39:59 <timeless> ACTION ArtB to follow up with mounir about status of Screen Orientation
17:39:59 <trackbot> Created ACTION-655 - Follow up with mounir about status of Screen Orientation [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].
17:40:05 <timeless> chaals: WebIDL
17:40:21 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:40:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
17:40:34 <timeless> chaals: Travis, look good?
17:40:47 <timeless> Travis: i am the test facilitator, but i haven't faciliateted
17:40:57 <timeless> s/faciliateted/facilitated/
17:41:01 <timeless> chaals: Web Intents
17:41:14 <timeless> gbillock: we probably need a test facilitator
17:41:18 <timeless> ... i'll sign up for that
17:41:24 <timeless> Travis: we need a FPWD
17:41:34 <timeless> gbillock: we'll talk about that this afternoon
17:41:38 <timeless> chaals: Web Messaging
17:41:40 <timeless> ArtB: in CR
17:41:45 <timeless> chaals: as of this morning
17:41:52 <timeless> ... that's PostMessage
17:42:05 <timeless> ArtB: according to caniuse.com, it has the most deployment
17:42:09 <timeless> chaals: but no tests
17:42:29 <timeless> shepazu: i don't think this is the right room to draw them from
17:42:40 <PaulKinl_> PaulKinl_ has joined #webapps
17:42:40 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow find a Test Facilitator for Web Messaging CR
17:42:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-656 - Find a Test Facilitator for Web Messaging CR [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].
17:42:48 <timeless> chaals: Web Sockets
17:42:54 <timeless> ... we need to finish CR/Test suite
17:43:03 <timeless> krisk: MikeSmith helped get a server up
17:43:13 <timeless> ... i think MikeSmith 's going to update one module
17:43:19 <timeless> ... but it seems to be going along pretty well
17:43:24 <timeless> ... tests are pretty complete
17:43:29 <timeless> ArtB: so MikeSmith will update the module
17:43:35 <timeless> chaals: run the Test Suite, ask for PR
17:43:49 <timeless> ArtB: are you aware of implementations that pass everything?
17:43:52 <timeless> krisk: we're pretty close
17:44:04 <timeless> anne: there's a problem in Web Sockets relating to Surrogates
17:44:11 <timeless> anne: the spec requires throwing
17:44:16 <timeless> s/to/to Isolated/
17:44:30 <timeless> ... but preference is to replace
17:44:49 <timeless> ... i don't think it's tested by the test suite
17:45:03 <timeless> glenn: there was discussion on isolated surrogates in public-script-coord
17:45:13 <timeless> anne: it's related, but it's not the same
17:45:15 <timeless> ... and it won't change
17:45:33 <timeless> anne: spec requires throwing
17:45:40 <timeless> ... most want not throwing
17:45:49 <timeless> adrianba: i thought we threw
17:46:02 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:46:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
17:46:30 <timeless> anne: for consistency with XHR which doesn't throw
17:46:40 <timeless> Josh_Soref: and web authors won't expect it to throw
17:46:54 <timeless> krisk: i think we should talk about this in our Hixie specs slot
17:46:57 <timeless> chaals: Web Storage
17:47:38 <timeless> ArtB: i think there's a late DOM4 change
17:47:42 <timeless> ... which blocks Web Storage
17:47:46 <timeless> ... does anyone implement that?
17:47:52 <timeless> krisk: I don't think anyone does yet
17:47:58 <timeless> ... it's definitely blocked on that
17:48:02 <timeless> ArtB: Yikes, 
17:48:11 <timeless> krisk: we should talk about that in the Hixie specs slot
17:48:19 <timeless> chaals: Web Workers
17:48:22 <timeless> ArtB: CR today
17:48:37 <timeless> Travis: someone doing that should work on Web Messaging, since they're intertwined
17:48:45 <timeless> anne: Web Workers has feedback that may require going back to LC
17:48:47 <timeless> chaals: that's right
17:48:53 <timeless> ... into that slot too
17:48:56 <timeless> chaals: XBL2
17:49:07 <timeless> ... anyone love that enough to follow up?
17:49:10 <timeless> ArtB: wait for sicking 
17:49:23 <timeless> chaals: my impression is that it's going to be parked
17:49:31 <timeless> anne: I think smaug is the only person who cares
17:49:41 <timeless> chaals: XHR
17:49:47 <timeless> anne: 2 does'nt existr
17:49:54 <timeless> s/does'nt existr/doesn't exist/
17:50:23 <timeless> anne: I wrote a test suite once
17:50:26 <timeless> ... but no one cared
17:50:39 <timeless> ... i tried to find someone, and odinho ...
17:50:43 <timeless> odinho: i had an intern
17:50:48 <timeless> chaals: making an intern isn't a good idea
17:50:51 <timeless> ... since they disappear
17:51:08 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:51:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
17:51:16 <timeless> chaals: we got a request from Mozilla when we rechartered
17:51:23 <timeless> ... to look at web app packaging
17:51:32 <timeless> ... sort of a JSON version of Widget Packaging
17:51:37 <timeless> ... and we have a potential draft starting point
17:51:46 <timeless> ... do you, tantek, have any further idea on its status?
17:51:51 <timeless> tantek: is this Manifests?
17:51:53 <timeless> chaals: yes
17:51:55 <timeless> shepazu: yes
17:52:02 <timeless> ... and do you know who that is?
17:52:07 <timeless> tantek: i think that was Michael Hanson
17:52:13 <timeless> ... what's the input you are requesting
17:52:18 <timeless> chaals: it's in our charter
17:52:28 <timeless> ... mozilla has a spec and someone supposedly into it
17:52:34 <timeless> ... do they have someone to do the work
17:52:38 <timeless> ... and you can say i don't know
17:52:40 <timeless> tantek: i don't know
17:52:45 <timeless> chaals: the answer is "we don't know"
17:53:06 <timeless> ACTION shepazu to contact dbaron (Mozilla AC), cc tantek 
17:53:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-657 - Contact dbaron (Mozilla AC), cc tantek  [on Doug Schepers - due 2012-05-08].
17:53:14 <timeless> [ Break for 15 minutes ]
17:53:19 <timeless> Topic: Web Components
18:03:37 <komoroske> komoroske has joined #webapps
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18:21:06 <PaulKinlan> PaulKinlan has joined #webapps
18:21:14 <timeless> chaals: sicking wasn't here
18:21:22 <timeless> ... XBL2 should be parked as a WG Note
18:21:33 <timeless> sicking: if things go south, can we bring it back?
18:21:35 <PaulKinl_> PaulKinl_ has joined #webapps
18:21:41 <timeless> chaals: yes, it's in the charter
18:21:50 <timeless> plh: is there a lot of work?
18:21:58 <timeless> shepazu: do we do a CfC?
18:22:02 <krisk> krisk has joined #webapps
18:22:06 <timeless> chaals: I volunteer to update the status of the document
18:22:07 <tross> tross has joined #webapps
18:22:24 <ArtB> ACTION: Barstow start CfC to create a WG Note for XBL2 (and Chaals will do the work)
18:22:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-658 - Start CfC to create a WG Note for XBL2 (and Chaals will do the work) [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].
18:22:43 <timeless> chaals: where are we?
18:22:52 <timeless> dglazkov: lots of work has been done since last TPAC
18:23:01 <timeless> ... the main feedback at TPAC
18:23:08 <timeless> ... was we brought a lot of stuff
18:23:11 <timeless> ... but it was a bag of goods
18:23:21 <timeless> ... rather than a coherent whole
18:23:37 <smaug_> smaug_ has joined #webapps
18:23:37 <timeless> ... we needed a declarative form
18:23:40 <timeless> ... where is the spec
18:23:46 <timeless> ... confinement/isolation
18:23:53 <timeless> ... lightweight/functional
18:24:49 <timeless> ... with the help of shepazu, we got things we needed
18:24:53 <tross_> tross_ has joined #webapps
18:24:59 <timeless> ... it takes more work to get a component in webkit bugzilla
18:25:08 <shepazu> s/help of shepazu/help of ArtB and shepazu/
18:25:43 <shepazu> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/57f8cfc4a7dc/explainer/index.html Web Components Explained
18:25:54 <timeless> s/http/-> http/
18:25:58 <dglazkov> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html
18:26:21 <timeless> s|http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html|-> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html Shadow DOM ED|
18:26:29 <timeless> dglazkov: we talked to a lot of people
18:26:44 <timeless> ... i tried to come up with as solid of a spec as i could
18:26:54 <timeless> ... simultaneously we developed this in WebKit
18:27:04 <ojan> ojan has joined #webapps
18:27:07 <timeless> ... behind a flag, and only available in Developer builds
18:27:13 <timeless> ... i don't want a repeat of WebSQL
18:27:21 <timeless> ... this helped inform ourselves about things
18:27:25 <timeless> ... it helped flush out things
18:27:31 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:27:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
18:27:39 <timeless> ... the basis of the spec was the XBL2 part
18:27:48 <timeless> ... there has been a lot of things added
18:27:55 <timeless> ... a lot of that is precision of shadow dom
18:27:58 <timeless> ... htmly things
18:28:02 <timeless> ... guided by our implementation
18:28:08 <timeless> ... today the spec is in pretty good shape
18:28:11 <timeless> ... we have a small bug list
18:28:20 <dglazkov> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/showdependencytree.cgi?id=14978
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18:28:43 <timeless> s|https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/showdependencytree.cgi?id=14978|-> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/showdependencytree.cgi?id=14978 Shadow DOM Bug Tree|
18:28:57 <timeless> dglazkov: some are small things, "not MUSTy enough"
18:29:12 <timeless> ... there's one (largish) addition we're contemplating
18:29:25 <timeless> ... bug 15818
18:29:38 <timeless> s|s/does'nt existr/doesn't exist/||
18:29:47 <timeless> s|2 does'nt existr|2 doesn't exist|
18:30:09 <timeless> s|s/pas that/past/that/||
18:30:26 <timeless> [ XXX scribe suspects that the scribe script has reached its breaking point ]
18:30:30 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:30:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
18:31:10 <shepazu> q+ to ask about changing styles of local instances (a la SVG <use>)
18:31:38 <timeless> dglazkov: i also worked on the HTML Templates Spec
18:31:47 <timeless> q?
18:31:53 <adrianba> q-
18:32:02 <timeless> ... an idea
18:32:11 <timeless> ... we have the templates element (see the Explainer doc)
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18:32:26 <timeless> ... what makes it "interesting" is that it requires HTML Parser modifications
18:32:34 <timeless> ... I wrote the spec and WebKit modifications
18:32:38 <timeless> ... to see how it was received
18:32:46 <timeless> ... several people voiced Cautious Concern
18:32:51 <timeless> ... Hsivonen and Abarth
18:33:12 <timeless> ... the two parser people whose brain's we picked
18:33:53 <timeless> ... they James Graham from Opera wasn't very happy either
18:34:04 <timeless> ... there's still a need for an extra mode (?)
18:34:19 <timeless> ... the <template> tag has 2 modes
18:34:24 <timeless> ... "declare anything"
18:34:27 <timeless> ... "declare anywhere"
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18:34:52 <timeless> ... we're going to drop "declare anywhere", we don't need it for Web Components
18:35:07 <timeless> ... "declare anything" we're going to keep, since it seems useful
18:35:18 <plh> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
18:35:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html plh
18:35:29 <timeless> Josh_Soref: you're going to drop anywhere, and you're keeping anything?
18:35:32 <timeless> [ Laughter ]
18:35:36 <timeless> dglazkov: right
18:35:44 <timeless> dglazkov: Custom Elements is the next spec in line
18:35:49 <timeless> ... i'm planning to start working on it next week
18:35:59 <timeless> ... i spent the last couple of weeks researching the problem space
18:36:04 <timeless> ... i wrote a poly-fill
18:36:08 <timeless> ... if you have Shadow DOM
18:36:08 <dglazkov> https://github.com/dglazkov/Web-Components-Polyfill
18:36:36 <timeless> s|https://github.com/dglazkov/Web-Components-Polyfill|-> https://github.com/dglazkov/Web-Components-Polyfill Polyfill (using Web Components)|
18:36:51 <timeless> dglazkov: in Custom Elements, one of the new thing is fictional syntax
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18:37:00 <timeless> ... these items aren't controversial
18:37:07 <timeless> ... loading definitions of components
18:37:11 <timeless> ... which is a big issue
18:37:17 <timeless> ... don't want Synchronous
18:37:33 <timeless> ... but Asynchronous has issues: When am I a component/When am I unknown?
18:37:38 <timeless> ... instantiating a Component
18:37:41 <timeless> ... has interesting effects
18:37:48 <timeless> ... maybe i'd like to be able to drop into user script
18:38:01 <timeless> ... but if i'm instantiating from Parser, that maybe isn't a good idea
18:38:08 <timeless> ... more mundane issue
18:38:14 <timeless> ... custom elements are DOM Objects
18:38:19 <timeless> ... with an extended prototype chain
18:38:24 <timeless> ... i don't know how to spec this
18:38:31 <timeless> ... since it creates a dependency on ECMAScript
18:38:34 <timeless> anne: what exactly?
18:38:46 <timeless> dglazkov: Custom Elements extend the Prototype Chain
18:38:49 <plh> partial interface?
18:38:54 <timeless> ... I don't want to create a dependency on ECMAScript
18:39:03 <timeless> anne: why is creating a dependency on ECMAScript a problem?
18:39:13 <timeless> plh: it seems like you're creating a partial interface
18:39:18 <timeless> dglazkov: right, but it's arbitrary
18:39:28 <timeless> anne: you should talk to cameron
18:39:38 <timeless> ... he'll probably say that you have to define it yourself in prose
18:39:42 <timeless> s/cameron/heycam/
18:39:50 <timeless> ... i'll look into it next week, after this session
18:39:57 <timeless> ... another thing, relating to elements
18:40:05 <timeless> ... we came to TPAC with custom tags
18:40:11 <timeless> ... there was much grievance
18:40:23 <timeless> s/custom tags/custom tags: x-slider/
18:40:38 <timeless> ... we switched to use elements
18:40:47 <timeless> ... it's a magical element, you can only set it once
18:41:20 <timeless> ... button is fancy button
18:41:39 <timeless> ... during instantiation, you have to specify it
18:41:44 <timeless> ... eric myer, of myerweb
18:41:45 <dglazkov> http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2012/04/10/element-customization/
18:42:11 <timeless> ... i want to bring it up, i'm feeling very ambivalent
18:42:21 <timeless> ... i'd like to figure out who would be the right person or forum
18:42:25 <timeless> ... i posted to webapps
18:42:29 <timeless> ... and crickets chimed in
18:42:39 <timeless> tantek: isn't this more HTML WG than WebApps WG?
18:42:43 <timeless> dglazkov: that's what i'd like to know
18:43:08 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:43:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
18:43:19 <timeless> shepazu: about inheriting from Button / Slider / Calendar
18:43:27 <timeless> ... there's been talk in the past about having psuedo elements
18:43:32 <timeless> ... say for CSS
18:43:39 <timeless> ... say for the slider's thumb
18:44:14 <timeless> dglazkov: we looked at the css variables spec
18:44:25 <timeless> ... the spec says css variables inherit into shadow dom
18:44:34 <timeless> shepazu: that calls out the need for pseudo elements
18:44:42 <timeless> dglazkov: with css variables, you don't
18:44:49 <timeless> shepazu: i don't understand yet
18:45:07 <dglazkov> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/samples/widget-theming.html
18:46:13 <timeless> dglazkov: i know the MS guys did pseudo elements
18:46:18 <timeless> ... and we have them in WebKit
18:46:21 <timeless> ... and we hate them
18:46:48 <timeless> dglazkov: what browsers use pseudo elements to style bits of things
18:46:53 <timeless> ... i think you use pseudo classes
18:47:23 <timeless> sicking: what do we use to style the placeholder
18:47:26 <timeless> ... or input elements?
18:47:36 <timeless> tantek: it's a psuedo class
18:48:10 <timeless> s/travis:/Travis:/g
18:48:52 <timeless> s/Mike_Smith/MikeSmith/g
18:49:16 <timeless> present+ Paul_Cotton
18:49:31 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:49:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
18:50:31 <timeless> dglazkov: in any declarative paradigm
18:50:39 <timeless> ... if you're saying button, or div is shelf
18:50:45 <timeless> ... you're defining a subclass
18:50:49 <timeless> ... and when you instantiate it
18:50:56 <timeless> ... you don't say, it's a shelf, oh, it's also a div
18:51:10 <timeless> shepazu: could there be another thing other than localname?
18:51:14 <timeless> dglazkov: i don't want to mess with
18:51:34 <timeless> tantek: could you consider defining it as a mixin rather than a subclass?
18:51:38 <timeless> dglazkov: that's decorators
18:51:53 <timeless> tantek: why not have everything be a mixin?
18:52:08 <timeless> dglazkov: when you're dealing with everything as an api
18:52:15 <timeless> ... you want to ensure things are always the same
18:52:29 <shepazu> q?
18:52:31 <timeless> ... you don't want a style recalculation to cause your object to lose its decorator/api?
18:52:36 <timeless> tantek: that's done through css?
18:52:46 <timeless> dglazkov: well, decorators are done through css
18:52:53 <timeless> ... and then there's the moving it out of the tree
18:53:03 <timeless> tantek: well like the class= attribute
18:53:12 <timeless> dglazkov: but then you can have "spooky action at a distance"
18:53:16 <timeless> ... if you change the class name
18:53:22 <timeless> ... what happens to its state?
18:53:28 <timeless> tantek: that invariant could be maintained
18:53:39 <timeless> dglazkov: i think that's possible
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18:53:47 <timeless> ... when the developer of a component
18:53:50 <timeless> ... relies on it to be a button
18:54:01 <timeless> ... if you want to have multiple things as a tree
18:54:08 <timeless> ... that's definitely possible
18:54:15 <timeless> sicking: it introduces complexity
18:54:23 <timeless> ... roughly Multiple Inheritance in C++
18:54:41 <timeless> ... it's very powerful, but very complicated
18:54:50 <timeless> dglazkov: it's just extending a prototype chain
18:54:54 <timeless> ... moving down the chain
18:55:12 <timeless> s/it's/[currently] it's/
18:55:27 <timeless> tantek: it seems like reinventing Java Class Hierarchies
18:55:37 <timeless> dglazkov: it's not reinventing
18:55:46 <timeless> ... just naturalizing JS inheritance into the DOM
18:56:13 <timeless> s/Present+ glenn//
18:56:23 <timeless> shepazu: in SVG we have the USE ELEMENT
18:56:33 <timeless> ... you have a use element, you reference an elemnt
18:56:37 <timeless> s/elemnt/element/
18:56:47 <timeless> ... and you get another instance
18:56:56 <timeless> ... but you can add attributes to the copy
18:57:00 <timeless> ... so you can have a plain star
18:57:07 <timeless> ... and then style one copy to green
18:57:08 <timeless> ... or red
18:57:17 <timeless> ... at TPAC, you said "No"
18:57:25 <timeless> ... is that still the answer?
18:57:34 <timeless> dglazkov: i think having the shadow tree with separate style
18:57:36 <timeless> ... has dragons
18:58:01 <timeless> shepazu: so we could reuse it?
18:58:13 <timeless> dglazkov: you will lose some of the invariants that the SVG spec provides
18:58:18 <timeless> ... but the way Shadow DOM is defined
18:59:14 <timeless> s/Present+ PaulKinlan//
18:59:31 <timeless> shepazu: i think all that SVG needs to keep
18:59:37 <timeless> ... is the way to style each instance separately
18:59:40 <timeless> dglazkov: that's possible today
18:59:49 <timeless> ... SVG uses Shadow DOM in a very limited way
18:59:53 <timeless> ... it doesn't have insertion points
18:59:58 <timeless> ... if you want to extend to that
19:00:02 <timeless> ... it's OMG
19:00:09 <timeless> ArtB: from a procedural perspective
19:00:14 <timeless> ... we agreed to a CfC for Shadow DOM
19:00:20 <timeless> ... what about Template Spec?
19:00:32 <timeless> dglazkov: I think Template Spec, as it is right now, we're going to kill it
19:00:45 <timeless> ... and we'll pursue it in HTML 
19:00:54 <timeless> ... in "Custom Elements"
19:01:02 <timeless> rafaelw: I think that's fine
19:01:10 <timeless> ArtB: so we're not going to publish this
19:01:19 <timeless> dglazkov: we're probably not going to publish it
19:01:32 <timeless> rafaelw: one of the more salient issues of the template element spec
19:01:34 <timeless> ... is two things
19:01:45 <timeless> ... what mechanism creates inertness 
19:01:50 <timeless> ... and where do those elements reside?
19:02:00 <timeless> ... on the ML, there was a propose that they be lifted out
19:02:11 <timeless> ... there was an item about it being objectionable
19:02:17 <timeless> ... if we can sort out that
19:02:27 <timeless> ... i think that's the most useful+controversial part
19:02:37 <timeless> ... if we can get consensus on that, i think we can get progress
19:02:43 <timeless> [ Time Check ]
19:02:53 <timeless> anne: hsivonen, abarth, jgraham are not here
19:03:05 <timeless> anne: hober is here
19:03:28 <timeless> anne: basically you lock out XHTML uses of templates
19:03:50 <timeless> hober: all things being equal, we shouldn't introduce more divergence between HTML and XHTML
19:03:58 <timeless> dglazkov: we have a Mexican Standoff
19:04:03 <timeless> ... between should we hurt XHTML
19:04:05 <ArtB> Present+ Alex_Komoroske
19:04:12 <timeless> ... vs. should we introduce something very non performant
19:04:17 <MikeSmith> cough TAG cough
19:04:39 <timeless> ojan: Ojan, Chrome, Member
19:04:53 <hober> s/Chrome/Google/
19:05:01 <shepazu> Alex Komoroske
19:05:01 <timeless> komoroske: Alex Komoroske, Google, Observer
19:05:22 <timeless> anne: elements inserted based on the template element
19:05:28 <timeless> ... you don't want them to be in
19:05:35 <timeless> ... because they cost resources
19:05:44 <timeless> ... and are exposed by QuerySelectAll/etc
19:05:53 <ArtB> Present+ Ojan_Vafai
19:05:56 <timeless> dglazkov: can we modify the XHTMLParser?
19:06:03 <timeless> anne: I have a draft that tries to modify XHTML parsing
19:06:07 <timeless> ... but it hasn't ...
19:06:13 <timeless> dglazkov: can we CfC dropping XHTML?
19:06:16 <timeless> [ laughter ]
19:06:26 <timeless> s/XHTML/XML/
19:06:38 <timeless> chaals: there's a proposal to make XML a kinder gentler beast
19:06:59 <timeless> anne: there's a big leap for moving things into a detached dom tree
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19:07:04 <timeless> ... it's cool and works for me
19:07:06 <MikeSmith> need a magic namespace
19:07:21 <timeless> ... but i don't think it would fly for others
19:07:33 <timeless> tross_: technically, it's inserted into the tree
19:07:39 <timeless> ... and then removed before anyone looks
19:07:46 <timeless> anne: the people who will care is the TAG
19:08:01 <timeless> ... and they want a document served as HTML or XHTML to behave the same
19:08:34 <timeless> paulc: More specifically, the Director cares
19:08:41 <sicking> q+
19:08:46 <timeless> chaals: changing XML is like changing the W3C Patent Policy
19:08:50 <timeless> ... but it isn't written in Stone
19:08:54 <timeless> ... it's on a wiki somewhere
19:09:06 <MikeSmith> q+ to suggest, for now, note this as a known issue, document the rationale, move on
19:09:08 <timeless> anne: we can say "we want to do this in html"
19:09:08 <shepazu> q-
19:09:14 <timeless> ... we don't think it will work in xml
19:09:26 <timeless> paulc: make a comment on the html wg's document
19:09:30 <timeless> anne: that's done, there's a bug
19:09:39 <timeless> ... but that won't get TAG attention until it ships
19:09:49 <timeless> ojan: no one has an alternative proposal that's technically feasible
19:09:58 <timeless> ... every other proposal has serious technical problems
19:10:06 <timeless> anne: if you don't address hiding from DOM Query
19:10:22 <timeless> ojan: and every future api that might do a network request or live action request
19:10:27 <timeless> ... needs to be template aware
19:10:35 <timeless> anne: in effect everyone needs to be aware
19:10:47 <timeless> shepazu: can we introduce the feature and say "does not work with xml"
19:10:54 <timeless> ... and let them solve it?
19:11:00 <timeless> anne: we already have that, it's called <noscript>
19:11:15 <timeless> dglazkov: we could also say we require an esoteric changes
19:11:25 <timeless> sicking: if i were to do this in Gecko
19:11:29 <timeless> ... i wouldn't touch Expat
19:11:41 <timeless> ... i'd change how the tree constructor handles events from Expat
19:11:49 <timeless> ... i don't think we need to violate XML
19:11:58 <timeless> ... wasn't there a proposal to stick things into <script> tags?
19:12:04 <timeless> dglazkov: there was
19:12:13 <timeless> sicking: although that also doesn't work in XML
19:12:23 <MikeSmith> q-
19:12:30 <timeless> chaals: we can say "hey world, we're going to upset your apple cart/orchard"
19:12:37 <timeless> ... and see if they care
19:12:39 <timeless> MikeSmith: +1
19:12:49 <timeless> anne: you definitely violate the spirit
19:12:51 <sicking> q-
19:12:54 <timeless> chaals: there's no question that it makes a mess
19:13:17 <timeless> tantek: if you're using XML, can't you use XSLT?
19:13:55 <timeless> dglazkov: resolution: we'll try to spec it as "doesn't work in XML"
19:14:03 <timeless> tantek: I don't think it's Apple Specific
19:14:06 <timeless> [ Laughter ]
19:14:38 <timeless> ArtB: dglazkov, have you thought about publishing the Explainer?
19:14:42 <timeless> dglazkov: i thought about it
19:14:50 <timeless> ... but it seems like a sequencing issue
19:15:00 <timeless> chaals: it makes sense to do it
19:15:05 <timeless> dglazkov: i can reformat it
19:15:10 <timeless> ... update it (for Shadow DOM
19:15:13 <timeless> s/DOM/DOM)/
19:15:16 <timeless> ... and then publish
19:15:18 <timeless> shepazu: i can help
19:15:52 <timeless> dglazkov: if you guys have time
19:16:03 <timeless> ... please dig into Shadow DOM and help me eliminate non MUSTy stuff
19:16:09 <timeless> anne: there might be a lot of those things
19:16:17 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish a FPWD of Web Components Explainer (when an ED with TR template is available)
19:16:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-659 - Start a CfC to publish a FPWD of Web Components Explainer (when an ED with TR template is available) [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].
19:16:18 <timeless> dglazkov: I do spend a lot of time staring at the spec
19:16:26 <timeless> ... but it's hard for the person who wrote something to see its faults
19:16:37 <timeless> ... any more questions?
19:16:52 <timeless> chaals: thank you dglazkov 
19:16:55 <timeless> [ Applause ]
19:17:08 <timeless> chaals: let's have an hour for lunch. Resume at 1:30pm
19:17:14 <timeless> Topic: Web Intents
19:17:27 <dglazkov> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html
19:17:44 <timeless> s/Bryan:/bryan:/g
19:20:36 <timeless> s/Present+ Tony Ross/Present+ Tony_Ross/
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20:36:11 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:36:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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20:39:43 <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: Hi, turns out I'm a member
20:39:48 <timeless> ... as of a couple of hours ago
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20:40:02 <timeless> ... we're going to talk about web intents
20:40:06 <timeless> ... i want to give you a demo
20:40:17 <timeless> ... i don't know how much you know about what we're trying to achieve
20:40:39 <timeless> [ We try to get projector projecting ]
20:40:54 <timeless> [ Lights go out ]
20:41:03 <timeless> [ chaals: Nope, that's not the one ]
20:41:57 <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: there are a couple of UCs where it's very hard to build integrations
20:41:59 <timeless> ... with third parties
20:42:07 <timeless> ... the whole point is that even though we have widgets
20:42:13 <timeless> ... there's no way to make integrations
20:42:19 <timeless> ... the biggest common action is Share
20:42:23 <timeless> ... the next is Bookmark
20:42:30 <timeless> ... but things people want to do:
20:42:37 <timeless> ... Edit Documents, Pick resources
20:42:43 <timeless> ... we want to make this easy
20:42:51 <timeless> ... let someone pick something from their cloud storage
20:43:13 <timeless> [ Projector had temporarily done something positive ]
20:43:17 <timeless> [ Projector failed ]
20:43:26 <timeless> [ adrianba: I just pressed random things until it worked ]
20:43:52 <timeless> [ shepazu: that's how they do most things ]
20:43:54 <timeless> [ Laughter ]
20:44:01 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #webapps
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20:44:07 <timeless> [ chaals: alright, do the interpretive dance ]
20:44:26 <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: there are a couple of common actions
20:44:27 <bryan> bryan has joined #webapps
20:44:30 <timeless> ... that we think are core to the web
20:44:33 <timeless> ... users do common things:
20:44:35 <timeless> ... share data
20:44:42 <timeless> ... save physical data to things (like Drop Box)
20:44:51 <timeless> ... they pick data from things (Word Document, Image, Video)
20:45:08 <timeless> ... they could pick from Flickr, Drop Box, YouTube
20:45:20 <timeless> ... one of the things I was going to show (in the demo) was Imagemator
20:45:34 <timeless> ... what we would see on the screen is a big button that says "Choose image"
20:45:50 <timeless> ... the browser knows which services you use
20:46:02 <timeless> ... the demo would let you pick from Picasa
20:46:19 <timeless> ... Picasa doesn't use Intents, but it has a public API which lets you do it
20:46:29 <timeless> ... You can do server to server work
20:46:37 <timeless> ... but we're starting to see purely client side applications
20:46:44 <timeless> ... a lot of their functionality is built on the client
20:46:55 <timeless> ... when you have applications sharing lots of data (Video, ...)
20:47:03 <timeless> ... the data might be local to your network
20:47:08 <timeless> ... or proximate to your network
20:47:17 <timeless> ... we'd like to let these two applications talk directly
20:47:19 <timeless> ... like a bridge
20:47:27 <timeless> ... we have demos that do both
20:47:34 <timeless> ... need a network, or client side resolution
20:47:44 <timeless> ... where we literally process a blob
20:47:52 <timeless> ... the demo itself doesn't do much work
20:47:54 <anne> anne has joined #webapps
20:48:04 <timeless> ... it finds a service that does editing
20:48:09 <smaug_> smaug_ has joined #webapps
20:48:15 <timeless> ... if the browser doesn't have a service for a thing
20:48:37 <timeless> ... the browser can use an indexing service (store, search engine)
20:48:40 <timeless> ... to discover a service
20:48:47 <timeless> ... In the demo, you'd press edit
20:48:52 <timeless> ... you don't have anything installed
20:48:59 <timeless> ... the Chrome Store would be searched
20:49:38 <anne> link to the demo?
20:49:51 <timeless> ... you'd pick Picnik
20:50:18 <timeless> s|anne link to demo?|-> http://demos.webintents.org/ Web Intents Demos|
20:50:25 <timeless> s|link to demo?|-> http://demos.webintents.org/ Web Intents Demos|
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20:51:05 <anne> ah
20:51:14 <dveditz> dveditz has joined #webapps
20:51:15 <timeless> s|ah|-> http://www.imagemator.com/ Imagemator|
20:51:17 <chaals> q+
20:51:27 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:51:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
20:51:28 <timeless> DanD: have you looked into a scenario
20:51:38 <timeless> ... where the application developer wants to choose a certain instance
20:51:48 <timeless> ... say I'm a photo sharing service and I want to choose Picnik
20:51:59 <timeless> ... I want to do it in a way that makes sense
20:52:04 <timeless> ... not to choose a default intent
20:52:07 <Arnaud> Arnaud has joined #webapps
20:52:09 <timeless> ... but a specific case
20:52:17 <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: We've talked about that in the TF
20:52:21 <timeless> ... an "Explicit Intent"
20:52:27 <timeless> ... say you're photoshop.com
20:52:32 <timeless> ... You want to be open to discovery
20:52:46 <timeless> ... however you've got specific integration with
20:52:58 <timeless> DanD: and the user should be able to override in the end?
20:53:10 <timeless> gbillock: explicit intents, it's unclear whether they will be overridable
20:53:20 <timeless> ... explicit intents let web content make the picker
20:53:44 <timeless> ... and letting web developers use Web Intents for internal RPC
20:54:02 <timeless> ... the way that you could bring up a browser guaranteed redress proof UI
20:54:07 <timeless> ... is interesting
20:54:26 <timeless> ... we're hoping with experimentation we'll figure that out
20:54:32 <timeless> chaals: the answer is that it should be overridable
20:54:39 <timeless> shepazu: it should be up to the UA
20:54:45 <timeless> chaals: if you have a local installed application
20:54:49 <timeless> ... it should work
20:54:57 <timeless> ... say you don't want to use photoshop.com
20:55:00 <timeless> ... you want to use photoshop
20:55:08 <timeless> gbillock: that's totally within scope
20:55:19 <timeless> ... we definitely want to be able to build a bridge between web apps and local apps
20:55:27 <timeless> ... for some embedders like OSs
20:55:30 <timeless> ... like Android
20:55:41 <timeless> ... there ought to be a way to create a mapping
20:55:50 <timeless> ... or Windows 8's "Contracts"
20:56:06 <timeless> ... you shouldn't be able to just go from a web app to photoshop
20:56:17 <timeless> ... but also from photoshop to say save to your dropbox
20:56:28 <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: we also want to be able to do picking
20:56:37 <timeless> s/picking/viewing/
20:56:42 <timeless> ... it should be easy to do Open With
20:56:58 <timeless> gbillock: currently the spec is focused on what you do for the Web Page
20:57:05 <timeless> ... there's language to say that this isn't the only way
20:57:11 <timeless> ... saying that there should be a local execution model
20:57:16 <timeless> ... but that's left up to the UA
20:57:25 <timeless> chaals: how do you go with AppCache
20:57:35 <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: we've done a lot of experimentation with AppCache
20:57:42 <timeless> ... we've experimented with RPC/RPH
20:57:58 <timeless> ... it's hard to get things to work with AppCache'd content
20:58:06 <timeless> chaals: because it sucks
20:58:20 <chaals> s/chaals: because it sucks//
20:58:23 <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: most people use a query string with RPH
20:58:34 <ericu> ericu has joined #webapps
20:58:38 <timeless> ... but Intents uses something different, so it could work
20:58:47 <timeless> magnus: you said you could have a UA
20:58:53 <timeless> ... that could download it using a search engine
20:59:01 <timeless> ... what happens while it's being retrieved
20:59:18 <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: the implementation in Chrome
20:59:26 <timeless> ... does the query using the web store (http)
20:59:30 <timeless> ... the API itself is Async
20:59:39 <timeless> ... the UA pops up the picker
20:59:45 <timeless> ... but the page isn't blocked
20:59:52 <timeless> ... if you have no networking
21:00:00 <timeless> ... then there might be no options for the user
21:00:08 <timeless> ... but how that works is up to the UA
21:00:15 <timeless> ... and because it's Async, that shouldn't affect the page
21:00:28 <timeless> gbillock: the idea that a user might be trapped with no options
21:00:38 <timeless> ... is definitely unappealing to developers
21:00:52 <timeless> ... one possibility is to let clients query to see if things are installed
21:00:57 <timeless> ... but that leads to fingerprinting
21:01:01 <timeless> ... that's a weak supercookie
21:01:06 <timeless> ... instead the direciton we're trying to go
21:01:13 <timeless> s/direciton/direction/
21:01:21 <timeless> ... is to let client applications provide fallback suggestions
21:01:28 <timeless> ... that the UA can use if the picker would otherwise be empty
21:01:41 <timeless> ... instead of being empty, you might see DropBox or whatever
21:01:55 <timeless> ... our current experimental implementation uses the chrome web store
21:02:00 <timeless> ... so they have to be installable
21:02:05 <timeless> ... the end state we'd want to get io
21:02:08 <timeless> s/io/to/
21:02:17 <timeless> ... is to have a web for web pages to identify themselves as services
21:02:24 <timeless> ... we've been discussing that in the HTML WG
21:02:28 <timeless> ... do we have an <intent> tag
21:02:32 <timeless> ... or ...
21:02:43 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:02:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
21:02:44 <timeless> ... It looks like Hixie is most favorable to having an <intent> tag
21:02:54 <timeless> ... but combining RPC, RPH, <intent> together
21:02:59 <timeless> ... so they'd look the same for users
21:03:12 <timeless> ... giving us both Imperative and Declarative
21:03:18 <timeless> ... and the same User Facing appearance
21:03:22 <chaals> q?
21:03:27 <timeless> anne: what Hixie said was quite reasonable
21:03:40 <timeless> ... that still doesn't say how you identify an app
21:03:52 <timeless> gbillock: Gmail would say use RPH for mailto:
21:03:58 <timeless> ... and register <intent>
21:04:06 <timeless> anne: on my web page, i have a contact form
21:04:14 <timeless> ... and i have a send me an email link
21:04:40 <gbillock> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/web-intents/raw-file/tip/spec/Overview.html
21:04:52 <timeless> s|http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/web-intents/raw-file/tip/spec/Overview.html|-> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/web-intents/raw-file/tip/spec/Overview.html Web Intents specification|
21:05:01 <timeless> gbillock: if you look at 3.1
21:05:04 <shepazu> q+ to ask about "inlining services" into a page with intents
21:05:15 <timeless> ... there'd be a services parameter
21:05:24 <timeless> gbillock: in chrome
21:05:28 <timeless> ... the picker is a list of optional services
21:05:38 <timeless> ... the top having items the user has used
21:05:46 <timeless> ... possibly it would query the store
21:05:58 <timeless> anne: if the developer provides urls
21:06:03 <timeless> ... what do you show?
21:06:08 <timeless> ... not just the url?
21:06:14 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:06:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
21:06:16 <timeless> gbillock: no, the page title + favicon, probably
21:06:24 <timeless> ... or if we've processed it, something else
21:06:33 <timeless> chaals: I want to go back to overrides
21:06:40 <timeless> ... the UC will come from Accessibility
21:06:46 <mattkelly> mattkelly has joined #webapps
21:07:10 <timeless> ... if you made a request for an Explicit Intent
21:07:39 <timeless> ... it should be possible to pick something else
21:07:46 <timeless> ... if you pass off text, then anything can
21:07:51 <timeless> ... but if you pass word97 documents
21:07:57 <timeless> ... then there are some other things that can handle it
21:08:07 <timeless> shepazu: obviously, if i have something, i can describe it
21:08:16 <timeless> ... is there any other way to give information to the user?
21:08:24 <timeless> gbillock: in the picker itself?
21:08:46 <timeless> ... the client presents the initial messaging to the user
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21:09:15 <timeless> shepazu: is there a way to give a description of the requested action?
21:09:43 <shepazu> s/description/human-readable description/
21:09:50 <timeless> gbillock: the UA has the complete Intent call bundled up
21:09:52 <timeless> ... what the action is
21:09:55 <timeless> ... what the type is
21:09:59 <timeless> ... any extra data
21:10:07 <timeless> ... the UA has to use that
21:10:13 <timeless> ... it can definitely customize itself
21:10:27 <timeless> ... to say "which of these services do you want to use to edit a contact"
21:10:47 <shepazu> q?
21:10:50 <timeless> ... we got a bit of feedback from UI people to provide per action wording
21:10:51 <shepazu> ack chaals 
21:11:27 <timeless> [ We have a projected Cosmos ]
21:11:42 <timeless> Topic: Web Intents Demo
21:11:58 <timeless> gbillock: Selection refers to the picker
21:12:13 <timeless> ... since the UA is in charge of that
21:12:30 <timeless> ... the UA can be arbitrarily sophisticated in terms of coaching the User
21:12:59 <timeless> Topic: Web Intents Demo
21:13:21 <chaals> hi
21:13:29 <timeless> s|hi|-> http://www.imagemator.com/ Imagemator|
21:13:39 <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: this is Imagemator
21:13:46 <timeless> [ Clicks Choose Image ]
21:14:04 <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: these are the user's services
21:14:10 <timeless> ... and these are the store services
21:14:26 <timeless> ... I'll use ... CloudFilePicker.com
21:14:30 <timeless> ... this is Picasa
21:14:39 <timeless> ... it isn't direct, it's via the Picasa API
21:14:56 <timeless> [ Picks a face with two phones pasted ]
21:14:57 <timeless> [ Laughter ]
21:15:05 <timeless> [ Clicks Edit ]
21:15:23 <timeless> ... I'll pick Mememator, i haven't installed it
21:15:34 <timeless> ... this has no server to server logic
21:15:45 <timeless> ... eventually this will work offline
21:16:08 <timeless> ... I'll pick Inspirationmator
21:16:20 <timeless> [ Enters Practice Demos; They work ]
21:16:44 <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: The UA passes the data around
21:16:56 <timeless> glenn: does this pass data around retain tainting?
21:17:02 <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: not in this case
21:17:12 <timeless> ... in here, the canvas isn't tainting
21:17:59 <timeless> ... I want to show two actions "Share blob" and "Share page"
21:18:20 <timeless> ... Web Intents can handle both
21:18:30 <timeless> adrianba: who decides what to be shared?
21:18:47 <timeless> ... in the Windows 8 contracts, we publish different options
21:18:54 <timeless> ... the link, the link with metadata, the html
21:18:58 <timeless> shepazu: like clipboard
21:19:03 <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: like clipboard
21:19:11 <timeless> ... right now, the application invokes one type
21:19:15 <timeless> ... saying i'm invoking the Image
21:19:36 <timeless> ... the link would be the physical image, and not a reference
21:19:42 <timeless> gbillock: there are two strings
21:19:45 <timeless> ... for match making
21:19:49 <timeless> ... the actions and the type
21:19:57 <timeless> ... the actions must match exactly
21:20:12 <timeless> ... and types must match, or if they're mime types must overlap
21:20:16 <smaug_> smaug_ has joined #webapps
21:20:19 <timeless> ... if twitter knows to share Images, Links, or Videos
21:20:26 <timeless> ... then it would register for 3 distinct things
21:20:41 <timeless> ... so you get a footprint over all the things you understand
21:20:48 <timeless> ... that's our theory right now
21:20:57 <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: the client application says it will do one thing
21:21:13 <timeless> ... your application will say it can support three types of data
21:21:27 <timeless> ... we might need to change it so you can offer one of two things as a request
21:21:38 <timeless> adrianba: there's a problem where you have multiple datatypes with precedence
21:21:46 <timeless> ... but it seems that like now the onus is on the user right now
21:21:56 <timeless> ... i know that twitter can take: page link, page link+title
21:22:11 <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: i think the onus is on the Client app to pick sensible types
21:22:30 <timeless> adrianba: as a user of the source app
21:22:48 <timeless> ... i have to know which button to pick to trigger to the destination app i have
21:23:00 <timeless> Paul_Kinlan: right now, our apps have one definitive type/action
21:23:11 <timeless> ... share was kind of interesting
21:23:23 <timeless> ... because very few apps share physical data
21:23:26 <timeless> ... most share data
21:23:37 <timeless> shepazu: i agree with adrianba, share is ambiguous
21:23:41 <timeless> q+ to talk about Share v. Save
21:24:04 <timeless> shepazu: look at facebook
21:24:08 <timeless> ... at one point you only shared a link
21:24:16 <timeless> ... now it also embeds some of the content
21:24:37 <timeless> gbillock: the thing starting the activity is the client
21:24:42 <timeless> ... and the thing performing is the service
21:24:49 <chaals> ack shepazu
21:24:49 <Zakim> shepazu, you wanted to ask about "inlining services" into a page with intents
21:24:56 <timeless> shepazu: i think there will need to be a negotation
21:25:10 <adrianba> q?
21:25:13 <chaals> q+ shepazu
21:25:21 <plh> plh has joined #webapps
21:25:32 <timeless> gbillock: the question of how complicated the handshake should be
21:25:37 <timeless> ... is obviously
21:25:47 <timeless> ... in order for this to work, the ecosystem has to agree
21:26:01 <timeless> ... Facebook/G+ occasionally figure out what you meant
21:26:25 <timeless> ... with that in mind, we've erred on the side of no negotation
21:26:36 <timeless> ... expand what you except 
21:26:53 <timeless> anne: i think for most user how to pick a service will be complicated enough
21:27:05 <timeless> gbillock: we decided to burden the service to enumerate what it supports
21:27:24 <timeless> anne: maybe you should have a way for the client to offer multiple at a time
21:27:33 <timeless> ... and let the service indicate its preferred payload
21:27:52 <timeless> Josh_Soref: this is not "Paste Special"
21:27:55 <timeless> shepazu: the user is stupid
21:27:59 <timeless> anne: the user has better things to do
21:28:06 <timeless> ack me
21:28:06 <Zakim> timeless, you wanted to talk about Share v. Save
21:28:17 <MikeSmith> q?
21:28:25 <chaals> scribe: chaals
21:28:30 <adrianba> q+ to talk about example of sharing a page
21:28:32 <shepazu> s/stupid/stupid (sarcastically)/
21:28:58 <chaals> timeless: I made a trip and tried to sign in. I could print a PDF or follow a link. I would like to decide to send it somewhere.
21:29:19 <chaals> ... you were expecting me to send it via a sharing service, but I want to save it somewhere and then use that to do my sharing.
21:29:32 <chaals> gbillock: You want to be able to translate the intents?
21:29:41 <chaals> timeless: I am saying they are the same thing
21:30:06 <chaals> paulk: I don't have an answer - there are different things that people expect from what they see.
21:30:37 <chaals> ... I don't think we don't want to fire two intents, or people will end up publishing washing lists of services that do everything.
21:31:06 <DanD> q?
21:31:15 <chaals> timeless: fallback is to have trasnlator intents. Doable and I want to make it easy - but I see share and save as the same.
21:31:47 <DanD> q+
21:31:48 <chaals> ... I can print to my device, rather than on paper. It is really a save, but as far as the computer is concerned it is a print.
21:32:20 <chaals> Paulk: Share was a broadcast, save was putting it somewhere. I can see the mental models behind this, but we have to work on this
21:32:42 <chaals> gbillock: The API doesn't spell out the verbs. It is an invocation of delivery leaving things open for usage to coalesce.
21:33:01 <chaals> ... reason common verbs are useful is that they give a way t develop a good expectation to agree on what you are trying to do.
21:33:22 <chaals> ... There are edge cases which are hard to think about - should a kindle support print and share and save?
21:33:28 <timeless> s/way t/way to/
21:33:38 <timeless> q?
21:33:41 <chaals> ... we're waiting to see what happens with usage - what emergent verbs there are.
21:34:01 <timeless> ack shepazu 
21:34:04 <chaals> kamos: we are waiting to get feedback.
21:34:25 <chaals> shepazu: In your demo you open a tab for the events. It might be interesting to be able to load a service inline on a page...
21:34:34 <rniwa> rniwa has joined #webapps
21:35:00 <chaals> paulk: we have two dispositions. All these demos use new tab, for transitory implementation motivations (bugs)
21:35:12 <chaals> ... there is an inline disposition that should be able to do that.
21:35:44 <chaals> ... let's you see the context, it is relatively unspoofable, it is an area we have been wary of.
21:35:54 <chaals> s/unspoo/spoo/
21:36:04 <chaals> ... we weren't confident that we could make it secure.
21:36:28 <chaals> shepazu: can't you have a UI option where the user gets to choose how it appears?
21:36:40 <chaals> ... eg in maps I want to have something within a page.
21:36:48 <chaals> paulk: we want to xplore it but haven't.
21:37:21 <chaals> gbillock: the obstacle is that the service has to provide an iframeable interface, which is subject to attack and we haven't figured out how to solve that yet. 
21:37:27 <tantek> q+ to ask how broad is the scope of intents and cross-application services, e.g. some examples discussed seem similar to OpenDoc/OLE, especially in local client-app to client-app content/service handling.
21:37:39 <chaals> ... we are expecting a proposal from someone so we will see what happens.
21:37:47 <chaals> ack adr
21:37:47 <Zakim> adrianba, you wanted to talk about example of sharing a page
21:38:19 <chaals> adrianba: wanted to give an example from windows. We have contracts, and share contract is one of them. The browser supports the idea of sharing a page. User decides to share a page.
21:38:43 <chaals> ... browser is a client in web intents terms. Can share link, a link+metadata, or HTML snippet.
21:39:10 <timeless> s/paulk:/Paul_Kinlan:/G
21:39:12 <timeless> s/Paulk:/Paul_Kinlan:/G
21:39:18 <chaals> ... when I choose share, windows finds services that supports one of those formats. Twitter app might take links+data, a bookmark does something similar, email might use the full HTML snippet, ...
21:39:29 <timeless> s/paulc:/PaulC:/G
21:39:39 <chaals> ... we allow any service that responds to a type to appear. User doesn't have to think about the options.
21:39:50 <chaals> ... sounds like your model is the service say it can take one of those threee.
21:40:18 <chaals> Paul_Kinlan: We ahve a model where you can share a link. Once we have that we can go fetch more detail, and put it in the metadata pat of the intent.
21:40:29 <timeless> s/Dan_Druta:/DanD:/g
21:40:31 <ArtB> Present+ Yosuke_Funahashi
21:40:39 <chaals> ... you have a link plus extra metadata. Have to think about service applications - they can ignore data, read it if it is there.
21:41:00 <chaals> ... not all clients will share all data. In Android services don't populate metadata consistently.
21:41:16 <timeless> s/Present+ PaulKinlan//
21:41:38 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:41:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
21:41:56 <chaals> ... using name as a URL was based on describing a particular experience. Tell people how you do it, what to populate the data with. Was going to be a lot looser on definition, with people using URL as value for where the information will come from.
21:42:09 <chaals> ... both client and server would choose what they send/receive.
21:42:30 <chaals> adrianba: feels a lot less predictable about what the user is going to receive
21:42:37 <timeless> s|s/Present+ PaulKinlan//||
21:42:38 <chaals> ... what is the URL for, what can I do with that?
21:42:48 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:42:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
21:42:52 <chaals> anne: doesn't the service also register types it accepts? I think you have teh same system.
21:43:15 <chaals> adrianba: if I ublish a url of something with an image, do I mean the page or the image on it?
21:43:24 <chaals> anne: thinki it makes more sense to send both.
21:44:04 <chaals> gbillock: one way to do both is an option we discarded (can reconsider). To integrate with types, we intend that it be possible to match a microdata type with complete schema capability...
21:44:19 <chaals> ... contact might be name+phone, or might have a lot more data there.
21:44:35 <chaals> ... idea is that user has a mental image of the service they are using.
21:44:49 <chaals> ... and so builds expectatoions of what is going to happen.
21:45:11 <chaals> ... There is flexibility in terms of how much payload is available to fill in for the service.
21:45:18 <chaals> ... weakness and strength.
21:45:23 <yosuke> yosuke has joined #webapps
21:45:42 <chaals> ... if your phone accepts a contact with no phone number., that seems wrong
21:45:46 <chaals> q?
21:46:00 <chaals> shepazu: Could you use this across multiple modalities?
21:46:17 <chaals> gbillock: We envisage the user agent being able to do things like use NFC to send stuff...
21:46:55 <chaals> DanD: Who is in control of selecting the directory of services?
21:47:14 <chaals> gbillock: User Agent. Services the user has installed that meet the required intent.
21:47:23 <chaals> DanD: who provides the list of options for what to install?
21:47:35 <shepazu> q+ to ask about a site registering itself as a service
21:47:42 <chaals> ... on mine it is meaningful - it gives me information about where the suggestions are coming from.
21:47:58 <chaals> ... good this is under control of the browser for sense of trust, user needs to know where the browser is going.
21:48:13 <chaals> ... side effect of that control limits discovery of other services which may be an issue.
21:48:25 <chaals> ... (vendor lock-in...)
21:48:39 <chaals> gbillock: Think client will be able to attach suggestions.
21:48:58 <timeless> q+ to note WAI concerns and Portability/Modality concerns
21:49:11 <chaals> DanD: more appropriate for app developer to recommend the directory, rather than having the user search the web. But you have to put the destination for searching into the user experience 
21:49:20 <chaals> zakim, please close the queue
21:49:20 <Zakim> ok, chaals, the speaker queue is closed
21:50:00 <chaals> gbillock: this is a stock UI for inline installs. if there are suggestions from teh client side they show differently. Being able to attribute stuff comprehensibly matters...
21:50:02 <MikeSmith> q?
21:50:08 <MikeSmith> ack DanD 
21:50:13 <timeless> s/teh/the/
21:50:17 <chaals> DanD: deja vu here - this is uddi/wsdl/etc again...
21:50:44 <chaals> ... there were some good developments done there, so looking for the lessons there is a good idea.
21:51:02 <chaals> ack tantek
21:51:02 <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to ask how broad is the scope of intents and cross-application services, e.g. some examples discussed seem similar to OpenDoc/OLE, especially in local client-app
21:51:06 <Zakim> ... to client-app content/service handling.
21:51:45 <chaals> tantek: deoms are awesome. scope is broader than I ahd understood. How broad is the scope intended to be?
21:52:03 <chaals> gbillock: spec is 'how pages invoke intents or get them delivered'
21:52:10 <chaals> ... leaves it up to the browser
21:52:33 <chaals> tantek: web apps, client apps, installed web apps are all in scope?
21:52:35 <timeless> present+ Ryosuke_Niwa
21:53:01 <chaals> ... that page has all the ability of HTML to send data anywhere, on the web or locally.
21:53:16 <chaals> tantek: including native apps?
21:53:32 <chaals> gbillock: in principle yes. we haven't done that yet, but it is in scope.
21:53:48 <timeless> s/ordinho/odinho/
21:54:04 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:54:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
21:54:15 <chaals> kam: scoped to websites, but could do this if there is demand.
21:54:43 <chaals> Paul_Kinlan: DAP is interested in this. We have been focused on webapp interactions. UA can provide a bridge to add native apps.
21:54:51 <chaals> tantek: do you know about opendoc and ola?
21:54:56 <timeless> s/PaulKinlan:/Paul_Kinlan:/g
21:55:05 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:55:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
21:55:08 <chaals> ... systems for applications doing this. Have you looked at that?
21:55:10 <chaals> gbillock: nope.
21:55:20 <chaals> q?
21:55:46 <chaals> ... there is IPR in that area that should be looked at.
21:56:10 <chaals> ... (I know because I did some of it)
21:56:53 <chaals> ack shepazu
21:56:53 <Zakim> shepazu, you wanted to ask about a site registering itself as a service
21:57:37 <chaals> shepazu: I am on flickr, it wants to tell me it can be a picker service. Is there something that lets them put something on their page so I can register it when I go there?
21:57:41 <chaals> gbillock: yep.
21:57:50 <timeless> s/I ahd/I had/
21:57:58 <tantek> for the minutes - s/ola/OLE
21:58:06 <chaals> ... right now we have experimental stuff, but yes we want to be able to do that through declarative syntax for the page.
21:58:08 <timeless> s|for the minutes - s/ola/OLE||
21:58:13 <timeless> s/ola/OLE/
21:58:39 <chaals> shepazu: if i share stuff with twitter, can I make that a default rather than picking every time?
21:58:51 <chaals> gbillock: spec leaves that to user agent, we expect that to be possible.
21:59:14 <chaals> timeless: having something is important to avoid security issues - you don't want a spamming site to get your twitter
21:59:27 <chaals> shepazu: there should be a user involvement to make sure
21:59:31 <chaals> gbillock: there is.
21:59:41 <timeless> ack me
21:59:41 <Zakim> timeless, you wanted to note WAI concerns and Portability/Modality concerns
21:59:41 <chaals> ack time
22:00:12 <ArtB> q+ Web Intents on DAP f2f agenda in July
22:01:05 <chaals> timeless: if the client page is making a request and can force a directry that doesn't work for my device, or have an accessibility requirement for specialist services, or want a different language, 
22:01:19 <chaals> ... the client might not have the right answer for the user.
22:01:30 <chaals> DanD: we already have scripts taht pick stuff...
22:01:43 <chaals> timeless: right, but they are not necessarily useful for a new device.
22:01:45 <timeless> s/taht/that/
22:02:07 <chaals> DanD: agree there may be an incompatibility. Would rather have app eveloper test and verify than have the user agent assume the thing will work.
22:02:21 <timeless> s/eveloper/developer/
22:02:27 <timeless> [ Break until 3:30 ]
22:04:53 <plh> -> https://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=42538 Current group participants
22:12:27 <rogerk> rogerk has joined #webapps
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22:30:27 <glenn> glenn has joined #webapps
22:31:40 <chaals> chaals has joined #webapps
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22:33:02 <timeless> Topic: Push SMS
22:33:15 <timeless> chaals: we have an item in the Charter for Server Sent Events
22:33:18 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #webapps
22:33:24 <timeless> ... the to things people have come up with are Push SMS stuff
22:33:41 <timeless> ... and a notification that can wake up / remotely start an app (web page)
22:33:43 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith has joined #webapps
22:33:47 <timeless> ... i'll hand the floor to bryan
22:34:52 <chaals> [Yosuke Funahashi introduces himself - co-chair of TV/Web IG]
22:35:05 <timeless> yosuke: Yosuke Funahashi
22:35:32 <timeless> s|Funahashi|Funahashi, co-chair of TV/Web IG|
22:35:47 <miketaylr> miketaylr has joined #webapps
22:35:50 <timeless> bryan: I've taken the UCs and broken them into a set of
22:35:52 <ArtB> UCs: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting/Push
22:36:00 <timeless> ... more discrete things which i'll call proto requirements/ideas
22:36:21 <anne> anne has joined #webapps
22:36:21 <timeless> s|UCs: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting/Push|-> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting/Push Push UCs|
22:36:27 <tross> tross has joined #webapps
22:36:36 <timeless> ... there's a link to a w3-ified draft from within OMA
22:36:42 <ArtB> Draft Bryan mentioned: http://ddpsdk.net/tm/w3c/eventsource-push.html
22:36:45 <timeless> ... it doesn't address all of the requirements
22:37:17 <timeless> s|Draft Bryan mentioned: http://ddpsdk.net/tm/w3c/eventsource-push.html|-> http://ddpsdk.net/tm/w3c/eventsource-push.html EventSource Push (Draft)|
22:37:32 <timeless> ... I've built this, and have a demo (which I won't try to show today)
22:37:47 <timeless> ... and there will be a social network demo called "Mobile Social Networking"
22:37:52 <gbillock> gbillock has joined #webapps
22:37:53 <timeless> ... at XXX
22:38:12 <timeless> ... we noticed that XMPP connections burn battery real fast
22:38:28 <timeless> ... I want to get notifications of things that are really asynchronous
22:38:40 <timeless> ... e.g. an auction watcher
22:38:56 <timeless> ... doesn't want to keep an application open
22:39:15 <timeless> ... until recently, you couldn't run a browser in the background on mobile devices
22:39:23 <timeless> ... the next UC is a WebRTC client
22:39:27 <timeless> ... the phone application/dialer
22:39:33 <timeless> ... it doesn't take over the screen until it needs to
22:39:43 <timeless> ... we need some way to register for wake up events
22:39:53 <timeless> ... we were looking for a way that was more seemless
22:40:29 <timeless> ... @ TPAC:WebApps last year
22:40:44 <timeless> ... there was a request that things not be so specific
22:40:55 <timeless> ... my proposal was based on my experience w/ SMS/OMA Push
22:41:12 <timeless> ... but we need to create a mapping between text-eventstream and these other things
22:41:49 <timeless> ... I ran into an issue involving blank lines
22:42:05 <timeless> ... Maybe we end up building on a processing model
22:43:02 <timeless> [ bryan is reading through the Push "Derived Requirements" section ]
22:43:09 <tantek> tantek has joined #webapps
22:44:14 <timeless> bryan: there needs to be a way to provide filters
22:44:24 <chaals> q+ to ask where we go with this now...
22:44:31 <chaals> zakim, open the queue
22:44:31 <Zakim> ok, chaals, the speaker queue is open
22:44:35 <chaals> q+ to ask where we go with this now...
22:44:38 <yosuke> yosuke has joined #webapps
22:44:48 <timeless> ... the ability to deliver information to a web app before it shows a UI
22:45:46 <timeless> ... my draft proposal integrates CORS
22:45:52 <timeless> s/integrates/incorporates/
22:46:00 <timeless> ... to apply the browser security model
22:46:22 <chaals> s/Push SMS/Push notification/
22:46:22 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minues
22:46:22 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft minues', timeless.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
22:46:26 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
22:46:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
22:46:55 <timeless> q?
22:46:59 <timeless> ack chaals 
22:46:59 <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to ask where we go with this now...
22:47:04 <timeless> chaals: when this came into the charter
22:47:13 <timeless> ... i'm not sure if the people who wanted it are here
22:47:18 <timeless> [ sicking raises his hand ]
22:47:23 <timeless> chaals: you have a draft idea of a spec
22:47:32 <timeless> bryan: that may be fairly localized in application
22:47:40 <timeless> chaals: do you have this in web apps space?
22:47:42 <timeless> bryan: not yet
22:47:51 <timeless> chaals: so you're planning to edit this
22:47:57 <timeless> bryan: i could definitely support that
22:48:05 <timeless> ... i'm looking for expert input
22:48:10 <timeless> q?
22:48:13 <sicking> q+
22:48:25 <timeless> chaals: next step is to put it into w3 space
22:48:30 <timeless> ... and put it in the list of work items
22:48:45 <timeless> bryan: i'm hoping to have a conversation on things
22:48:51 <timeless> chaals: sure, but you start with an ED
22:48:54 <timeless> bryan: sure
22:48:58 <timeless> ack sicking 
22:49:03 <timeless> sicking: "We"
22:49:06 <timeless> ... (loosely)
22:49:11 <sicking> http://jbalogh.me/2012/01/30/push-notifications/
22:49:11 <timeless> ... also have a draft proposal
22:49:42 <timeless> sicking: it doesn't cover everything from the proposal
22:49:47 <timeless> ... we could add things
22:50:00 <timeless> ... an application can say "i want to be able to send push notifications to the browser"
22:50:17 <timeless> ... the user agent allows the user to authorize that
22:50:36 <timeless> ... and if authorized, a URL is made available to the application
22:50:58 <timeless> ... and then it can use whichever applicable means to send messages back to the UA/page
22:51:09 <timeless> ... it should be integratable with Apple's push protocol
22:51:20 <timeless> ... currently you can't deliver that message to a particular page
22:51:28 <timeless> ... it shows up on the screen
22:51:40 <timeless> ... but when the user clicks on it, it goes to a certain page
22:51:50 <timeless> ... we could let pages say they don't want things on screen
22:51:58 <timeless> bryan: it sounds like OMAPush
22:52:01 <timeless> ... service indication
22:52:05 <timeless> ... (pre 2000)
22:52:10 <timeless> ... a text message and a url
22:52:15 <timeless> ... that wasn't directed to an application
22:52:23 <timeless> ... We added a way for an application to listen directly
22:52:35 <timeless> ... the key to OMAPush is that it uses Tokenization
22:52:46 <timeless> ... in 4 SMS payloads, you get up to 2k of content
22:52:53 <timeless> ... which isn't achievable without tokenization
22:53:35 <timeless> chaals: so it sounds like we have two sort of half starting points
22:53:39 <timeless> ... going into the same direction
22:53:47 <timeless> ... so the action is to look at them together
22:53:57 <timeless> bryan: i can look at mozilla's draft
22:54:07 <timeless> ... there's interest in integrating Apple's Push Notification
22:54:13 <timeless> ... and C2DM
22:54:16 <timeless> ... (Google's)
22:54:25 <timeless> ... that's where it stands
22:54:40 <timeless> ACTION bryan to look at proposals and start editing
22:54:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-660 - Look at proposals and start editing [on Bryan Sullivan - due 2012-05-08].
22:54:52 <timeless> magnus: the proposal is to extend Server Sent Events
22:54:57 <timeless> ... with event streams
22:55:03 <timeless> ... but you're not limiting to that
22:55:13 <timeless> chaals: we're not limiting to that
22:55:28 <timeless> bryan: it may, but i found hoops, websockets may be better
22:55:34 <timeless> DanD: I'm a member of WebRTC
22:55:38 <timeless> ... this came up as a requirement
22:55:44 <timeless> ... it got escalated to WebApps
22:55:50 <timeless> ... we did some analysis
22:55:56 <tantek> <aside> chaals, follow-up from your question about Application Manifest, we (Mozilla) do have someone working on a spec, and are iterating in public with intent to submit to Web Apps WG for inclusion/publication: http://mozilla.github.com/webapps-spec/  cc:sheapzu,sicking </aside>
22:56:11 <timeless> ... it's nice to have
22:56:23 <timeless> ... but there are emerging technologies which will make it a necessary feature
22:56:28 <chaals> [reply to your aside: Cool. We chairs are waiting for that :) ]
22:56:40 <timeless> bryan: in this draft, you'll see some text examples
22:56:52 <timeless> ... i'll send a link to the github which has a demo
22:57:17 <timeless> Arnaud: is there a speed requirement?
22:57:35 <timeless> bryan: i haven't seen any request for a service delivery deadline
22:57:42 <timeless> ... things tend to happen within a second or two
22:58:06 <timeless> Arnaud: if you use SMS as a bearer 
22:58:11 <timeless> ... it can be slow
22:58:32 <timeless> sicking: Apple's has no promise of delivery at all
22:58:37 <timeless> bryan: it's best effort
22:59:06 <timeless> Topic: File API
22:59:21 <timeless> chaals: where is Mr. Arun?
22:59:31 <timeless> sicking: this is a side project for arun
22:59:36 <krisk> krisk has joined #webapps
23:00:07 <timeless> ... he hasn't been able to work on this for a while
23:00:22 <timeless> ... he did a spurt of editing LC feedback into the spec
23:00:31 <timeless> ... i have to work off memory of the outstanding issues
23:00:40 <timeless> ... the big one is One-Time-Only
23:00:43 <timeless> ... and revoking
23:01:23 <chaals> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=WebAppsWG&component=File%20API&resolution=--- File API bugz
23:01:34 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
23:01:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
23:01:48 <timeless> sicking: I think there was something else
23:01:53 <timeless> adrianba: there was the Close thing
23:02:09 <timeless> sicking: i think Close has the same problem space as Revoke
23:02:48 <timeless> adrianba: how concrete do we have to be
23:02:55 <timeless> ... and how interoperable do we need to be
23:03:14 <timeless> ... in IE we have a behavior where something may be cached in the decoded Image cache
23:03:21 <bryan> bryan has joined #webapps
23:03:26 <timeless> sicking: i suspect we'll want to define those things
23:04:18 <timeless> ... I suspect we'll be done with the File spec
23:04:19 <chaals> q+ to generalise Adrian's question onto tomorrow's agenda
23:04:30 <timeless> ... before we have those cases done for Images
23:04:56 <timeless> ... I suspect that long term we'll want to and require behaviors
23:05:00 <timeless> ack chaals 
23:05:00 <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to generalise Adrian's question onto tomorrow's agenda
23:05:09 <timeless> chaals: can we bake a stable version of the spec
23:05:18 <timeless> ... that gives a useful stable reference
23:05:24 <timeless> ... while we work forward
23:05:27 <timeless> adrianba: there's a difference
23:05:39 <timeless> ... between is it valuable to have specs that are roughly stable and useful
23:05:53 <timeless> ... and there's a part of a spec where there are so many variations based on underlying platforms
23:06:04 <timeless> ... saying for those things maybe we don't have to specify them maybe ever
23:06:12 <timeless> sicking: i suspect we'll want to define this
23:06:27 <timeless> ... i suspect for image cache, we probably have the same issue
23:06:32 <timeless> ... and if you hadn't brought it up
23:06:37 <timeless> ... we may not have tested it
23:06:40 <timeless> adrianba: web developers care
23:06:45 <timeless> ... and they care when it breaks them
23:06:51 <chaals> s/can we bake/I would like to take this point out of this discussion and put on the agenda tomorrow whether we can/
23:06:58 <timeless> ericu: they care if we underspecify it
23:07:07 <timeless> ... and it works in one browser and breaks in other browsers
23:07:19 <timeless> sicking: it'll affect every place that uses urls, and every place that reads out of blobs/files
23:07:28 <timeless> ... there are certain things we should define
23:07:36 <timeless> ... there are going to be lots of things we're going to miss
23:07:46 <timeless> ... some of these things should be specified outside the File API spec
23:07:53 <timeless> ... some i suspect we'll get to eventually
23:07:59 <timeless> shepazu: if there are several contentious issues
23:08:04 <timeless> ... and some that will be tricky to do
23:08:12 <timeless> ... maybe we should bring on an additional editor
23:08:18 <timeless> chaals: this isn't an editor issue
23:08:28 <timeless> sicking: it isn't an issue of the File API spec
23:08:40 <timeless> ... it's up to the other specifications to accept a hand off
23:08:51 <timeless> chaals: should we put out a call for a second editor
23:08:57 <timeless> ericu: oh, we have a second editor
23:09:02 <timeless> [ sicking raises hand ]
23:09:08 <timeless> shepazu: you're just very busy
23:09:20 <timeless> sicking: there's a very small amount of this that will go into the File API
23:09:43 <timeless> ... for One-Load-Only
23:09:52 <timeless> ... do we revoke at first access or at end of microtask
23:09:55 <timeless> ... the other is...
23:10:02 <timeless> ... if you start loading, and then you revoke
23:10:07 <timeless> ... should that load continue
23:10:22 <timeless> ... i think on the second one, i don't think we've gotten feedback from you, Microsoft
23:10:28 <timeless> adrianba: oh, I can give you feedback:
23:10:35 <timeless> ... once we've started, it's very hard to stop
23:10:42 <timeless> sicking: ok, so once a load has started it should finish
23:10:49 <timeless> adrianba: for Close
23:10:55 <timeless> ... if you're doing File Reader on a Blob
23:11:01 <timeless> ... the point of calling Close
23:11:10 <timeless> ... is to say you really want to let go of the resources
23:11:17 <timeless> sicking: i considered them to be the same
23:11:23 <timeless> ... but we can keep them as separate
23:11:39 <timeless> ... we should figure out
23:12:10 <timeless> sicking: the first thing is ArrayBuffer v. ArrayBufferView
23:12:19 <timeless> ... i dislike the topic enough that i haven't followed the discussion
23:12:26 <timeless> Josh_Soref: +1
23:12:34 <timeless> sicking: I suspect that we should be using ArrayBufferView
23:12:41 <timeless> adrianba: we can't do that soon
23:12:50 <timeless> sicking: i'm happy to leave it as an OR
23:13:01 <timeless> adrianba: I agree that it seems like it should be the right thing
23:13:12 <timeless> ... by the time we could change
23:13:19 <timeless> ... ECMA TC39 could progress
23:13:47 <timeless> sicking: I suspect that even if TC39 does something, it'll be called as ArrayBufferView or subclassed as that
23:13:57 <timeless> ... my feeling is we do ArrayBufferView now
23:14:06 <timeless> ... and if something new is added, we can add it later
23:14:15 <timeless> adrianba: do we always know
23:14:20 <timeless> ... when you use these things
23:14:35 <timeless> ... can we reliably feature detect support for these?
23:14:44 <timeless> sicking: the Blob constructor is hard to detect
23:14:54 <timeless> anne: you could just try
23:15:16 <timeless> chaals: you guys drink beer tonight and solve the problems
23:15:27 <timeless> anne: you're going to have the need for feature detection all the time
23:15:32 <timeless> ... it hasn't been a real problem in practice
23:15:43 <timeless> adrianba: i think these are relatively new features that haven't been detected
23:15:50 <timeless> anne: you need browser sniffing anyway
23:15:54 <timeless> adrianba: for incremental things
23:16:07 <timeless> ... for response-type in XHR, that's a good feature detect
23:16:11 <timeless> ... set and retrieve
23:16:22 <timeless> ... some things we're adding will be harder for feature detection
23:16:40 <timeless> ... there's an envelop thing with Must understand
23:16:49 <timeless> ... and things which aren't
23:16:59 <timeless> chaals: I really do mean: have a beer tonight, talk about this
23:17:11 <timeless> PaulC: i'd like a beer too
23:17:17 <timeless> anne: we can discuss it tomorrow
23:17:25 <timeless> ... feature detection is the agenda item
23:17:37 <timeless> ericu: File Writer, Locking
23:17:43 <timeless> ... sicking has a new proposal
23:17:47 <timeless> ... but we need to discuss it on the list
23:17:59 <timeless> [ Break until 4:30 ]
23:31:13 <timeless> Topic: IME
23:32:22 <ArtB> -> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ime-api/raw-file/default/use-cases/Overview.html IME UCs and Requirements
23:33:05 <timeless> MikeSmith: I worked with Kenji and Hironori
23:33:16 <timeless> ... the main cases where IMEs are important are Japan and Chinese
23:33:20 <timeless> s/Chinese/China/
23:33:25 <timeless> ... and to some extent Korea
23:33:28 <timeless> chaals: and Vietnam
23:33:38 <timeless> MikeSmith: since you don't have 10,000 keys on your keyboard
23:33:44 <timeless> ... you type on your keyboard, it goes into a buffer
23:33:49 <timeless> ... and gets converted
23:33:54 <timeless> ... into Kanji
23:34:03 <timeless> ... you don't want an IME to interfere with Games
23:34:07 <timeless> ... or other things
23:34:18 <timeless> ... similar to Screen Orientation/Pointer Lock
23:34:50 <timeless> ... interactively typing and getting suggestions from a web application
23:34:57 <timeless> ... like Google Suggest
23:35:05 <timeless> ... completing against things in a database in real time
23:35:21 <timeless> ... while you're completing against a database, you're potentially also completing against the IME
23:35:47 <timeless> Josh_Soref: most mobile devices also have IMEs for word completion for Latin languages
23:35:56 <timeless> MikeSmith: Interaction
23:36:20 <timeless> ... some people want feature compatibility with other runtimes
23:36:31 <timeless> ... Flash has the ability to interact with the System IME
23:36:40 <timeless> Josh_Soref: System IMEs are BUGGY AND INSECURE
23:36:56 <timeless> MikeSmith: as a game developer you can use this
23:37:15 <timeless> ... some people want to be able to provide a web based IME
23:37:37 <timeless> ... if you want to create a complete branded and consistent UE
23:37:42 <timeless> ... then if your application includes text input
23:37:50 <timeless> ... and you want to control IME behavior in your application
23:38:00 <timeless> ... then you want to be able to brand and style that
23:38:11 <timeless> yosuke: a lot of systems don't have IMEs installed
23:38:17 <timeless> ... and users don't know / can't install them
23:38:26 <timeless> ... so a web site might want to provide that
23:38:48 <timeless> ... installing that may require privileges
23:38:57 <timeless> MikeSmith: i don't know why we didn't put that one
23:39:07 <timeless> Josh_Soref: google provides that for Translate for Hebrew
23:39:25 <timeless> chaals: Yandex does that for Cyrillic
23:39:36 <timeless> MikeSmith: Hixie didn't think this was the right approach
23:39:48 <timeless> tantek: there's an existing CSS property ime-mode
23:39:56 <timeless> ... from IE5/Firefox
23:40:02 <timeless> ... that should address your Games case
23:40:06 <timeless> ... it's in CSS3 UI LC
23:40:06 <chaals> q+ ryosuke
23:40:08 <timeless> ... it's at risk
23:40:16 <timeless> ... there's a simple property there
23:40:22 <timeless> ... if there are UCs that are easy to add to them
23:40:31 <timeless> ... the spec is being locked down
23:40:40 <tantek> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-css3-ui-20120117/#ime-mode
23:40:44 <chaals> q+ anne
23:40:49 <timeless> s/yosuke/ryosuke/
23:40:51 <chaals> ack ry
23:41:11 <timeless> ryosuke: there's no concept of IME on/off
23:41:30 <timeless> ... when you switch languages/layouts
23:41:38 <timeless> ... i don't think this new api addresses that either
23:41:44 <timeless> ... maybe there's a way to include that
23:41:48 <chaals> ack anne
23:41:59 <timeless> anne: given that web pages already make their own UIs
23:42:09 <timeless> ... it'd be helpful if there was an explanation as to why something is needed
23:42:19 <chaals> q+
23:42:29 <timeless> s/ryosuke:/rniwa:/
23:42:38 <ArtB> -> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ime-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.html IME ED
23:42:40 <timeless> chaals: when you implement it, what happens in practice is it doesn't work
23:42:48 <timeless> q?
23:42:49 <rniwa> hober: ?
23:42:57 <timeless> s/hober: ?//
23:43:13 <rniwa> timeless: ah, ok. hober: thanks
23:43:32 <chaals> ack me
23:43:37 <timeless> rniwa: there's some interest in creating SVG editors
23:43:39 <timeless> q+
23:43:59 <timeless> rniwa: you want to be able to type things into the SVG
23:44:10 <timeless> ... and that isn't compatible with Content Editable
23:44:13 <timeless> ack me
23:45:05 <timeless> Josh_Soref: some "system" IMEs are buggy and pushing insecure content into them
23:45:09 <rniwa> heycam: that's nice to know :D
23:45:12 <timeless> ... is just as dangerous as pushing data to font engines
23:45:19 <timeless> ... = nice root exploits
23:45:23 <timeless> Topic: URL
23:45:38 <tantek> perhaps consider an informative reference to CSS3-UI for the 'ime-mode' property
23:45:44 <timeless> s/heycam: that's nice to know :D//
23:45:47 <timeless> MikeSmith: the URL Spec
23:45:49 <ArtB> -> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/url/raw-file/tip/Overview.html URL spec
23:45:56 <timeless> ... the api part
23:46:12 <chaals> i/Topic: URL/Mike: We're about ready for a FPWD, the spec is reasonably advanced. Hopefully some time this month.
23:46:37 <timeless> ... if you're going to expose URL information
23:46:43 <timeless> ... then you want a way to parse them
23:46:57 <timeless> ... the part before this is the algorithm for parsing
23:47:07 <timeless> ... there's a definition of what a URL is
23:47:12 <timeless> ... it isn't defined anywhere
23:47:36 <timeless> ... the first two parts started in the html spec
23:47:45 <timeless> ... but there isn't anything specific
23:48:05 <tantek> I've done some research on what different specs call the different parts of URLs: http://tantek.com/2011/238/b1/many-ways-slice-url-name-pieces
23:48:21 <timeless> Topic: Agenda Bashing
23:48:37 <timeless> chaals: there's a gap for people to wake up
23:48:39 <timeless> ... CORS
23:48:45 <timeless> ... D3E/DOM4
23:48:51 <timeless> ... Testing
23:49:09 <timeless> ... Versions/Stabilize
23:49:29 <timeless> ... -- these points here have dragons
23:49:32 <timeless> ... Feature detection
23:49:43 <timeless> ... -- anne + adrianba 's item
23:49:49 <timeless> ... [ their action was to drink beer ]
23:49:55 <plh> plh has joined #webapps
23:49:58 <timeless> ... Meeting Planning
23:50:10 <timeless> PaulC: when will you do that?
23:50:14 <timeless> ... i'd like to try to be here
23:50:20 <timeless> ... i'd like to have our TPAC plans straight
23:50:26 <timeless> chaals: yes, that being our next meeting
23:50:38 <timeless> ... anything else people want to put in our next meeting?
23:50:45 <Paul_Kinlan> Paul_Kinlan has joined #webapps
23:50:54 <timeless> glenn: where are we drinking beer tonight?
23:50:59 <timeless> chaals: that's later in today's agenda
23:51:31 <timeless> ... 9:45-10:15 CORS w/ WebAppSec
23:52:07 <timeless> ... HTML Stuff
23:52:22 <timeless> ... Index DB
23:52:35 <timeless> ... [ real item ]
23:52:38 <timeless> ... Full screen
23:52:44 <timeless> anne: 10 minutes
23:53:13 <timeless> ArtB: what's HTML?
23:53:25 <timeless> krisk: Hixie specs (Sockets, Workers, ...)
23:53:32 <timeless> chaals: Lunch
23:53:39 <timeless> ... Feature detection/stability
23:54:49 <timeless> ... Testing
23:54:55 <timeless> ... Meetings
23:55:02 <timeless> ... - wrap up + beer
23:56:53 <krisk> Tied House Brewery & Cafe 954 Villa Street Mountain View, CA 94041 (650) 965-2739
23:57:42 <timeless> chaals: thanks all
23:57:45 <timeless> [ Adjourned ]
23:57:51 <timeless> RRSAgent: make minutes
23:57:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html timeless
23:58:02 <timeless> trackbot, end meeting
23:58:02 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
23:58:02 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
23:58:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
23:58:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html trackbot
23:58:11 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
23:58:11 <RRSAgent> I see 11 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-actions.rdf :
23:58:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: chaals to bug AC reps of ex-members to re-join after new charter [1]
23:58:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-irc#T16-32-10
23:58:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Art start a CfC to stop work on From-Origin spec [2]
23:58:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-irc#T17-19-42
23:58:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Art start a CfC to publish a FPWD of Fullscreen spec; coordinate with CSS WG [3]
23:58:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-irc#T17-23-30
23:58:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Art start CfC for FPWD + LCWD of Gamepad spec [4]
23:58:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-irc#T17-25-02
23:58:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Art start CfC to publish FPWD of IME spec [5]
23:58:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-irc#T17-26-57
23:58:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Art start CfC for Pointer spec [6]
23:58:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-irc#T17-28-00
23:58:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Art start a CfC to publish a FPWD of Shadow DOM [7]
23:58:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-irc#T17-35-02
23:58:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Art start a CfC for FPWD of URL spec (Mike to be lead Editor) [8]
23:58:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-irc#T17-37-54
23:58:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow find a Test Facilitator for Web Messaging CR [9]
23:58:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-irc#T17-42-40-1
23:58:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Barstow start CfC to create a WG Note for XBL2 (and Chaals will do the work) [10]
23:58:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-irc#T18-22-24
23:58:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish a FPWD of Web Components Explainer (when an ED with TR template is available) [11]
23:58:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-irc#T19-16-17