15:52:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-techs-tf
15:52:01 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/30-html-techs-tf-irc
15:52:10 <Joshue108> zakim, this will be 9224
15:52:10 <Zakim> ok, Joshue108; I see WAI_HTML TT()11:30AM scheduled to start 22 minutes ago
15:52:18 <Joshue108> rrsagent, make log world
15:52:37 <Joshue108> meeting: HTML Techniques Task Force
15:52:42 <Joshue108> chair: Joshue
15:53:20 <Joshue108> agenda + Please comment on the new survey for this week  - https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/HTML5_section/
15:53:32 <Joshue108> agenda + Discuss the use of placeholder on INPUTs technique (to be updated by Léonie).
15:53:32 <Joshue108> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/htmltechs-20120409/
15:53:41 <Joshue108> agenda +  Discuss the use of JavaScript Libraries in WCAG.
15:56:04 <Zakim> WAI_HTML TT()11:30AM has now started
15:56:11 <Zakim> +??P0
15:56:16 <Joshue108> zakim, ??P0 is Joshue
15:56:16 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
15:56:20 <Joshue108> zakim, mute me
15:56:20 <Zakim> sorry, Joshue108, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
16:00:49 <Zakim> +Cooper
16:01:18 <adam> adam has joined #html-techs-tf
16:01:36 <Zakim> +??P2
16:01:53 <adam> zakim, ??P2 is adam_solomon
16:01:53 <Zakim> +adam_solomon; got it
16:01:57 <MichaelC> agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/4F97F1FB.6090301@cfit.ie
16:03:07 <Zakim> +??P6
16:03:51 <Loretta> Loretta has joined #html-techs-tf
16:04:13 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P6 is Loretta_Guarino_Reid
16:04:13 <Zakim> +Loretta_Guarino_Reid; got it
16:04:34 <Zakim> +Marc_Johlic
16:08:38 <Loretta> scribe: Loretta
16:08:39 <Joshue108> zakim, take up item 1
16:08:39 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Please comment on the new survey for this week  - https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/HTML5_section/" taken up [from Joshue108]
16:08:51 <Joshue108> scribenick: Loretta
16:09:45 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #html-techs-tf
16:09:46 <Zakim> +Jon_Gunderson
16:10:23 <Loretta> JOC: I cleaned up the wiki page for the combined sections, then split out section and article.
16:11:01 <Loretta> JOC: I will update the techniques to address the current round of comments.
16:11:22 <Loretta> Loretta: have we decided whether to do joint or separate techniques/
16:12:13 <Loretta> JOC: Currently, updting both paths. Currently, I think having separate techniques would be better.
16:12:50 <Loretta> Marc: It is a lot easier to read the individual techniques. Massively long techniques can be overwhelming.
16:13:51 <Tim> Tim has joined #html-techs-tf
16:13:58 <Loretta> JOC: How to demonstrate the relationships between the elements? Maybe use multiple types of mark-up in the examples for one element type.
16:14:11 <Loretta> JOC: Or provide some kind of overview somewhere.
16:14:36 <jongund> jongund has joined #html-techs-tf
16:14:44 <Loretta> Marc: This is one reason I am torn. Maybe an overview with links to the individual techniques?
16:15:05 <Loretta> JOC: Maybe make the overview with no test procedure, etc.
16:15:53 <Loretta> Marc: Maybe an overview describing what they are about, then one sample that contains everything.
16:16:41 <Loretta> Actio: Josh to create a new page using this model.
16:16:56 <Joshue108> s/Actio/Action
16:17:10 <Loretta> Loretta: Michael how could we fit this into the WCAG document structure?
16:18:10 <Loretta> Loretta: Somehow use model of 1 general technique plus one of the following...
16:18:47 <Loretta> Michael: we shouldn't keep ourselves from writing support documents and linking to them. We'll find a place to put the supporting information.
16:19:11 <Loretta> Josh will proceed with this idea.
16:20:10 <Loretta> JG: In the sectino example, I was curious why you use article as the container for the different sections. I thought article would be more atomic.
16:20:50 <Loretta> JOC: THe article element has 2 hats: an article (a large unit) or something that is much smaller and more granular.
16:21:22 <Loretta> JG: ARIA's definition is muchmore of a discrete unit. Do we want to promote article to have 2 different meanings in html5, even if it can?
16:22:09 <Loretta> JOC: There is a lot of confusion in general about how to use these different elements.
16:22:27 <Loretta> JG: We want WCAG to encourage the best use of the elements, rather than the possible use of the elements.
16:22:35 <Zakim> -adam_solomon
16:22:42 <Loretta> JOC: Which definition should we favor?
16:22:49 <Zakim> +??P2
16:22:59 <Loretta> JG: (reading definition from HTML5 spec)
16:23:13 <adam> zakim, ??P2 is adam_solomon
16:23:13 <Zakim> +adam_solomon; got it
16:23:37 <Loretta> JOC: so blog post itself could be an article, but comments can also be (child) articles.
16:24:18 <Loretta> JG: reading the section element: article encouraged when you want other people to repurpose that piece of the content.
16:25:01 <Loretta> JOC: my understanding is that article should be the parent.
16:25:13 <Loretta> JOC: but I could be wrong as well.
16:25:16 <Zakim> +Tim
16:25:35 <Loretta> JG: I agree that we should present these in the best way. How fast and loose should we play with the spec?
16:26:05 <Loretta> Loretta: I worry about spending too much time trying to specify best practice.
16:26:46 <Loretta> JOC: How do we encourage good usage? Do we just take the examples from HTML?
16:26:48 <Joshue108> s/sectino/section
16:27:13 <Loretta> Loretta: this will be most painful when writing the test procedures. Do they require best practice?
16:27:37 <jongund> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_HTML5_article_element
16:29:16 <Loretta> JG: footer example seems odd, with only child that is a section. footer and section are both landmarks. If a landmark only contains one landmark child, it is an extra layer for navigation.
16:29:36 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #html-techs-tf
16:29:36 <Loretta> JOC: footer is a flow element in HTML5. It isn't a landmark, is it?
16:30:17 <Loretta> JG: It final outcome in HTML5 is not clear. There may be a schism between the way things are defined in ARIA and HTML5. footer will be a landmark in HTML5, but not in ARIA.
16:30:44 <Loretta> JG: I already see article being misused even as an ARIA role.
16:31:22 <Loretta> JG: Now we have footer. We don't have footer in ARIA, we have complementary info.
16:32:34 <Loretta> JOC: IN terms of user agent support, footer may be another generic div.
16:33:03 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald
16:33:04 <Loretta> Loretta: concerned about trying to address everything in 1.3.1 technique
16:33:33 <Loretta> JOC: But what should we show in our examples? Maybe I should take the footer stuff out completely.
16:34:03 <Loretta> JOC: If it is a concern that we are generating too many landmarks, maybe we should restructure this?
16:34:35 <David> David has joined #html-techs-tf
16:34:42 <Loretta> JG: I worry about semantic pollution. If everything becomes navigable, it reduces the efficiency of using them. Too much semantics can be a hindrance.
16:35:19 <Loretta> JG: We have the tension between how to use headers and landmarks together. Users may be familiar with headers but not landmarks.
16:35:47 <Loretta> JG: With HTML5's ability to affect the level of headers baeed on the mark-up structure, this may introduce more confusion.
16:35:59 <Loretta> JOC: ANother interesting discussion, maybe not for now.
16:36:41 <Loretta> JG: Looking at the example, the idea is that the footer will include the comments. THis is a typical blog structure. In the second example, we include actual comments.
16:37:02 <Loretta> JOC: The question is whether the usage of the footer is correct? Or should I use div or section?
16:37:11 <Loretta> JOC: The containing element could be a section?
16:38:01 <Loretta> Loretta: Will your proposed restructuring help with this, where we will have an overview and overview example?
16:38:14 <Loretta> JOC: I'd like to get feedback on the appropriate use of footer.
16:39:21 <Loretta> Loretta: Jon, does the versio populated with comments seem better?
16:40:13 <Loretta> JG: ANother question about the use of labels. SHould these sections use aria-labelled by to associate the header with the section?
16:40:27 <Loretta> JG: I'd be happier to use something like that.
16:40:30 <Loretta> JOC: Great idea.
16:41:57 <Loretta> JOC: There is only one section in the current example. THere are a few articles nested .I could add aria-labelledby.
16:44:38 <David> q+
16:44:56 <David> scribe: David
16:45:54 <David> LGR concerned about complexity... tension between simple demonstartion of technique vs... demonstrating a bunch of SC at the same time, and much more complex
16:46:28 <David> Josh: let's do both, a simple example and a more complex one with WAI ARIA
16:47:03 <David> LGR: 1.3.1 say that relationships that are there are explicit
16:47:48 <David> Josh: without labels then it's a failure...
16:48:40 <David> LGR: Really? I wouldn't agree... WAI Labels on Sections is helpful, but not a failure without it...
16:51:14 <Loretta> David: I'm confused why we would add a sectino when there is no UA support? THere is no accessibility currently.
16:51:57 <Loretta> David: we might want a technique on labels. Why include a section technique at all? We only want to include techniques that support accessibility.
16:52:07 <Loretta> JOC: future peoofing.
16:52:45 <Loretta> JOC: Want a working example but also want to demonstrate how things should be used.
16:53:18 <Zakim> -adam_solomon
16:55:33 <Loretta> LOretta: standards of AT support are relaxes for HTML5 techniques so we can proof the spec for missing features or support
16:56:23 <Loretta> David: we should focus on ARIA techniques which are more mature.
16:56:29 <jongund> I have to go to another call, good discusion
16:56:37 <Joshue108> thanks Jon
16:56:37 <Zakim> -Jon_Gunderson
16:56:44 <Zakim> -Joshue
16:57:09 <Zakim> +??P0
16:57:18 <Joshue108> zakim, ??P0 is Joshue
16:57:18 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
16:58:13 <Joshue108> s/peoffing/proofing
16:59:19 <Zakim> -Loretta_Guarino_Reid
16:59:45 <Loretta> I think I just got kicked off...
17:00:06 <David> yup
17:00:38 <Loretta> Anyway, write up a complete, best practice example for the overview document. THen maybe individual techniques can contain some simpler examples, and also refer 
17:01:13 <Loretta> to the complete example as another example, possibly with discussion of how the specific element is being used there
17:01:21 <Loretta> Josh, does that make sense?
17:01:51 <Loretta> (Of course, these things always sound good until we try to apply them. <grin>)
17:02:05 <Joshue108> Yup, thanks Loretta.
17:02:36 <Loretta> Sorry about losing the phone. I don't know what happened. See you in 4 weeks?
17:02:45 <Joshue108> :-)
17:02:56 <Loretta> I'll miss the next 3 Mondays...
17:03:28 <Loretta> Good work!
17:03:30 <Zakim> -Marc_Johlic
17:03:38 <Zakim> -Tim
17:05:30 <Zakim> -Joshue
17:05:31 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
17:05:32 <Zakim> -Cooper
17:05:32 <Zakim> WAI_HTML TT()11:30AM has ended
17:05:32 <Zakim> Attendees were Joshue, Cooper, adam_solomon, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Marc_Johlic, Jon_Gunderson, Tim, David_MacDonald
17:05:47 <Joshue108> rrsagent, make minutes
17:05:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/30-html-techs-tf-minutes.html Joshue108