HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

26 Apr 2012


See also: IRC log


John_Foliot, Janina, Judy, Mike, Cooper, Rich, Cynthia_Shelly
Steve, Laura, David_McDonald
janina, MichaelC, MikeSmith


<trackbot> Date: 26 April 2012

<MikeSmith> scribe: janina

<MikeSmith> oops

issue 204 status

<MikeSmith> scribe: MichaelC

<MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith

janina: we told teh chairs we had a 204 proposal last week
... and we had a ton of further development on that since
... and Cynthia has put that into a proposal, Tuesday early evening
... I wrote to the chairs to say that I think it's ready
... but after that we had some more feedback, primarily for Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis
... and and initiated a 48-hour CfC, which expires tomorrow
... at this point, maybe we should look together at his comments
... and asked if he might be able to be on teh call today, but he demurred
... Laura has said she will retract her CP if we put this forward

judy: my impression from Laura's reply to Ben's comment was that she felt it might be addressable in Cynthia's CP

<janina> Here's Benjamin's objection:

<janina> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Apr/0199.html

JF: one of his principle objections is that it makes it conforming to hide labels using the hidden attribute
... but part of it is, we are just trying to document reality
... the pont of the CP is not to add or extend functionality that does not exist, but to document what does
... there are some pretty heavy restrictions on what you can and can't do

<judy> I think Benjamin's objection is in a later mail: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Apr/0200.html

janina: there are examples in the CP where the CP says just that
... what we are talking about here is not a zero value, but somethign quite small

JF: the first paragraph of that message is his objection


I object to a CP that makes it conforming to hide labels and

short descriptions with @hidden, as I don't believe a persuasive case

has been made that this helps users or authors.


JF: I don't think we are trying to make a persuasive case, but just documenting that it *can* be done

janina: wonderful statement in there is that this can already happen and people are already doing to, but the purpose is defining what the realistic limitations are
... but there are misunderstandings about what goes with it

JF: I asked Ben before to give us the actual quotes from the specs that he says we are contradicting

<janina> mike: See he's clearly saying "it violates the spec," but doesn't tell us where/how

<janina> janina: I'll do that

JF: I want to note that Matthew Turvey also responded and said why don't we just adopt his CP

<janina> jf: Wanted to note that Matt also commented and pointed to a Bugzilla thread

<scribe> scribe: janina

janina: Yes, but that wasn't specifically to the 48-hour call

rich: I've reviewed the I204 and think it's perfectly good

jf: So you don't see any contradictions between the CP and ARIA spec?

rich: No contradictions

jf: Should we do a poll?

judy: Think that's important

Please +1 if you support the Issue-204 CP at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Correct_Hidden_Attribute_Section_v2

<JF> I for one support that Change Proposal


<JF> so +1

<richardschwerdtfe> +1

<judy> +1

issue 203 deadline (Friday)

<JF> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/Issue203

<MikeSmith> janina: John needs help getting the details written

rich: So asking for longdesc not describedat?

jf: A mechanism for short and long text description?
... Mechanisms we have now in HTML 5 are alt and (hopefully) longdesc -- noting the dependency on Issue-30

rich: What does alt do here with images turned off?
... alt pertains to the video file, not the poster, correct?

jf: correct

rich: So alt is rendered with images off?

jf: Correct

rich: Doesn't title get rendered with images off?

jf: Quoting spec ... re a11y

janina: The thing that gets lost in these conversations is that when the video is not running it functions on screen as a static image

rich: Does this CP talk about that? Should it?
... So, if images are turned off, user has contextual info about that video ...
... Important that we don't want that rendered with video running
... Needs to state somehwere that alt goes away when the video is triggered to run

jf: I need technical/editorial assistance to write this correctly

rich: Silvia?

jf: Silvia is adament that a transcript would suffice as a long description
... believe the community would not accept that

janina: definitely not, no question


rich: is there a proposal from Ted? Is there a URI

mike: Don't think anyone knows

rich: We do have some proposals
... also have email of new info on carat etc would like use cases moved from what-wg wiki to the proposal

ARIA Processing

michael: trying to understand other cp issues
... seem to be some misunderstanding but also some difference on approach
... want feedback not by reference, other cp seems to prefer reference

rich: html does define the root ref when svg and mathml are incorporated by ref, but aria doesn't work that way

michael: willing to go back to a reference approach

rich: we don't want to change the spec every time we change aria

micael: also role attribute not defined by aria

rich: need to defer to uaig processing rules

michael: also, ian pushed back on role=list
... only processes the first

rich: there's no basis on how expensive this is, at least at this time
... currently, uaig says first valid role is the one used

<judy> === Summary of Text Alternatives Sub-Team of HTML A11Y TF ===

<judy> http://www.w3.org/2012/04/24-text-minutes.html

<judy> Reviewed CP deadlines and coordination in progress

<judy> Need to resolves priorities between Issue 203 & Issue 199

<judy> Requests from H5 CoChairs for more info on Issue 194: Video transcript

<judy> Review of actual alts in HTML WG specs, David completed review

mike: One more important thing

<judy> Intend to present these as bugs at level of editorial clarifications

<judy> Review of alt guidance in HTML5 spec and SF's doc, David also taking up

text subteam report

<judy> DM & JS having work session on both this Friday

<judy> Issue 204, ARIA hidden, John merging his CP, Laura likely to w/ pending edits

<judy> Issue 31c, Meta generator, draft CP in progress, available for comment shortly

<judy> Issue 203, Media descriptions, John expects to have draft by Thursday

<judy> Issue 194, Video transcripts, Mike will have on agenda this Thursday

<judy> === end of text subteam report ===

judy: also still working on meta generator draft ...

mike: other business for today?


mike: no meeting next week ...
... we have the f2f
... next meeting may 9

<MikeSmith> chair's feedback about JF issue-194 - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0141.html

Summary of Action Items

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/was addressable/might be addressable/
Found Scribe: janina
Inferring ScribeNick: janina
Found Scribe: MichaelC
Found Scribe: MikeSmith
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Scribes: janina, MichaelC, MikeSmith
ScribeNicks: janina, MikeSmith
Default Present: John_Foliot, Janina, Judy, Mike, Cooper, Rich, Cynthia_Shelly
Present: John_Foliot Janina Judy Mike Cooper Rich Cynthia_Shelly
Regrets: Steve Laura David_McDonald
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Apr/0207.html
Found Date: 26 Apr 2012
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-html-a11y-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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