15:01:24 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
15:01:24 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-html-a11y-irc
15:01:26 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:01:28 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
15:01:28 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 61 minutes ago
15:01:29 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:01:29 <trackbot> Date: 26 April 2012
15:01:38 <judy> judy has joined #html-a11y
15:01:39 <MikeSmith> chair: Mike
15:01:56 <MikeSmith> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Apr/0207.html
15:02:53 <MikeSmith> scribe: janina 
15:03:00 <MikeSmith> oops
15:03:11 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
15:03:19 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:04:37 <MikeSmith> agenda+	issue 204 status
15:04:38 <MikeSmith> agenda+	issue 203 deadline (Friday)
15:04:39 <MikeSmith> agenda+	issue 194
15:04:41 <MikeSmith> agenda+	meta generator deadline
15:04:42 <MikeSmith> agenda+	HTML5 stabilization plan / call for editors
15:04:44 <MikeSmith> agenda+	skip next week's TF call?
15:04:45 <MikeSmith> agenda+	other business
15:04:45 <MikeSmith> agenda+	be done
15:05:04 <judy> zakim, who's here?
15:05:04 <Zakim> I notice WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has restarted
15:05:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Foliot, Janina, Judy, Mike, Cooper
15:05:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see judy, RRSAgent, janina, richardschwerdtfe, JF, MikeSmith, davidb, MichaelC, Zakim, [tm], trackbot
15:05:32 <judy> zakim, actually, you kind of blew it on the "restarting" assessment, but what the heck
15:05:36 <janina> zakim, take up item 9
15:05:38 <Zakim> I don't understand you, judy
15:05:45 <Zakim> agendum 9. "issue 204 status" taken up [from MikeSmith]
15:06:51 <judy> agenda+ Subteam reports
15:07:05 <MikeSmith> scribe: MichaelC 
15:07:09 <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith 
15:07:24 <MikeSmith> janina: we told teh chairs we had a 204 proposal last week
15:07:35 <MikeSmith> ... and we had a ton of further development on that since
15:07:55 <MikeSmith> ... and Cynthia has put that into a proposal, Tuesday early evening
15:08:06 <MikeSmith> ... I wrote to the chairs to say that I think it's ready
15:08:28 <MikeSmith> ... but after that we had some more feedback, primarily for Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis
15:08:55 <MikeSmith> ... and and initiated a 48-hour CfC, which expires tomorrow
15:09:10 <MikeSmith> janina: at this point, maybe we should look together at his comments
15:09:27 <MikeSmith> ... and asked if he might be able to be on teh call today, but he demurred
15:10:12 <MikeSmith> janina: Laura has said she will retract her CP if we put this forward
15:10:45 <MikeSmith> judy: my impression from Laura's reply to Ben's comment was that she felt it was addressable in Cynthia's CP
15:10:48 <janina> Here's Benjamin's objection:
15:10:49 <janina> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Apr/0199.html
15:11:17 <MikeSmith> JF: one of his principle objections is that it makes it conforming to hide labels using the hidden attribute
15:11:30 <MikeSmith> ... but part of it is, we are just trying to document reality
15:11:52 <MikeSmith> ... the pont of the CP is not to add or extend functionality that does not exist, but to document what does
15:12:09 <MikeSmith> ... there are some pretty heavy restrictions on what you can and can't do
15:12:20 <judy> I think Benjamin's objection is in a later mail: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Apr/0200.html
15:12:23 <MikeSmith> janina: there are examples in the CP where the CP says just that
15:12:50 <MikeSmith> ... what we are talking about here is not a zero value, but somethign quite small
15:12:58 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:12:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith
15:13:17 <MikeSmith> JF: the first paragraph of that message is his objection
15:13:29 <MikeSmith> [[
15:13:31 <MikeSmith> I object to a CP that makes it conforming to hide labels and
15:13:31 <MikeSmith> short descriptions with @hidden, as I don't believe a persuasive case
15:13:32 <MikeSmith> has been made that this helps users or authors.
15:13:33 <MikeSmith> ]]
15:13:55 <MikeSmith> JF: I don't think we are trying to make a persuasive case, but just documenting that it *can* be done
15:14:05 <judy> s/was addressable/might be addressable/
15:15:42 <MikeSmith> janina: wonderful statement in there is that this can already happen and people are already doing to, but the purpose is defining what the realistic limitations are
15:15:59 <MikeSmith> ... but there are misunderstandings about what goes with it
15:16:02 <MikeSmith> q?
15:16:55 <MikeSmith> JF: I asked Ben before to give us the actual quotes from the specs that he says we are contradicting
15:18:08 <janina> mike: See he's clearly saying "it violates the spec," but doesn't tell us where/how
15:18:23 <janina> janina: I'll do that
15:19:35 <Zakim> +Rich
15:19:45 <MikeSmith> JF: I want to note that Matthew Turvey also responded and said why don't we just adopt his CP
15:19:48 <janina> jf: Wanted to note that Matt also commented and pointed to a Bugzilla thread
15:19:57 <MikeSmith> scribe: janina 
15:19:59 <janina> janina: Yes, but that wasn't specifically to the 48-hour call
15:20:34 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:20:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith
15:20:53 <janina> rich: I've reviewed the I204 and think it's perfectly good
15:21:14 <janina> jf: So you don't see any contradictions between the CP and ARIA spec?
15:21:18 <janina> rich: No contradictions
15:24:09 <janina> jf: Should we do a poll?
15:24:16 <janina> judy: Think that's important
15:25:09 <janina> Please +1 if you support the Issue-204 CP at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Correct_Hidden_Attribute_Section_v2
15:25:13 <JF> I for one support that Change Proposal
15:25:14 <janina> +1
15:25:18 <JF> so +1
15:26:12 <richardschwerdtfe> +1
15:26:15 <judy> +1
15:26:29 <MikeSmith> Regrets: Steve, Laura, David McDonald
15:28:01 <janina> zakim, take up item 10
15:28:01 <Zakim> agendum 10. "issue 203 deadline (Friday)" taken up [from MikeSmith]
15:28:09 <JF> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/Issue203
15:28:40 <MikeSmith> janina: John needs help getting the details written
15:28:50 <janina> rich: So asking for longdesc not describedat?
15:29:06 <janina> jf: A mechanism for short and long text description?
15:30:19 <janina> jf: Mechanisms we have now in HTML 5 are alt and (hopefully) longdesc -- noting the dependency on Issue-30
15:30:42 <MikeSmith> q?
15:30:44 <janina> rich: What does alt do here with images turned off?
15:31:28 <janina> rich: alt pertains to the video file, not the poster, correct?
15:31:30 <janina> jf: correct
15:31:46 <janina> rich: So alt is rendered with images off?
15:31:52 <janina> jf: Correct
15:32:58 <janina> rich: Doesn't title get rendered with images off?
15:34:14 <janina> jf: Quoting spec ... re a11y
15:35:50 <janina> janina: The thing that gets lost in these conversations is that when the video is not running it functions on screen as a static image
15:36:07 <janina> rich: Does this CP talk about that? Should it?
15:37:08 <janina> rich: So, if images are turned off, user has contextual info about that video ...
15:37:21 <janina> rich: Important that we don't want that rendered with video running
15:38:24 <janina> rich: Needs to state somehwere that alt goes away when the video is triggered to run
15:39:30 <judy> q+
15:40:08 <janina> jf: I need technical/editorial assistance to write this correctly
15:41:02 <MikeSmith> ack judy
15:43:54 <judy> ack ju
15:44:33 <judy> q+
15:44:36 <janina> rich: Silvia?
15:44:38 <MikeSmith> q?
15:44:43 <MikeSmith> ack judy 
15:44:53 <janina> jf: Silvia is adament that a transcript would suffice as a long description
15:45:01 <janina> jf: believe the community would not accept that
15:45:08 <janina> janina: definitely not, no question
15:47:42 <janina> zakim, agenda?
15:47:42 <Zakim> I see 17 items remaining on the agenda:
15:47:44 <Zakim> 1. Issue-204 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Apr/0124.html [from janina]
15:47:44 <Zakim> 2. Issue-199 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0143.html [from janina]
15:47:44 <Zakim> 3. Issue-194 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0141.html [from janina]
15:47:44 <Zakim> 4. Subteam Reports: Bug Triage; Text; ARIA Mappings [from janina]
15:47:44 <Zakim> 5. Other Business [from janina]
15:47:46 <Zakim> 6. Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open [from janina]
15:47:47 <Zakim> 7. Identify Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List [from janina]
15:47:50 <Zakim> 8. be done [from janina]
15:47:52 <Zakim> 9. issue 204 status [from MikeSmith]
15:47:53 <Zakim> 10. issue 203 deadline (Friday) [from MikeSmith]
15:47:55 <Zakim> 11. issue 194 [from MikeSmith]
15:47:57 <Zakim> 12. meta generator deadline [from MikeSmith]
15:48:00 <Zakim> 13. HTML5 stabilization plan / call for editors [from MikeSmith]
15:48:02 <Zakim> 14. skip next week's TF call? [from MikeSmith]
15:48:03 <Zakim> 15. other business [from MikeSmith]
15:48:05 <Zakim> 16. be done [from MikeSmith]
15:48:07 <Zakim> 17. Subteam reports [from judy]
15:48:32 <janina> topic: canvas
15:48:50 <janina> rich: is there a proposal from Ted? Is there a URI
15:48:57 <janina> mike: Don't think anyone knows
15:49:43 <janina> rich: We do have some proposals
15:50:17 <janina> rich: also have email of new info on carat etc would like use cases moved from what-wg wiki to the proposal
15:50:53 <janina> topic: ARIA Processing
15:51:19 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
15:51:28 <janina> michael: trying to understand other cp issues
15:51:41 <janina> michael: seem to be some misunderstanding but also some difference on approach
15:52:23 <janina> michael: want feedback not by reference, other cp seems to prefer reference
15:52:51 <janina> rich: html does define the root ref when svg and mathml are incorporated by ref, but aria doesn't work that way
15:53:21 <janina> michael: willing to go back to a reference approach
15:53:30 <janina> rich: we don't want to change the spec every time we change aria
15:54:38 <janina> micael: also role attribute not defined by aria
15:54:50 <janina> rich: need to defer to uaig processing rules
15:56:07 <janina> michael: also, ian pushed back on role=list
15:56:31 <janina> michael: only processes the first
15:57:19 <janina> rich: there's no basis on how expensive this is, at least at this time
15:58:18 <janina> rich: currently, uaig says first valid role is the one used
15:59:20 <judy> === Summary of Text Alternatives Sub-Team of HTML A11Y TF ===
15:59:20 <judy> http://www.w3.org/2012/04/24-text-minutes.html
15:59:20 <judy> Reviewed CP deadlines and coordination in progress
15:59:20 <judy> Need to resolves priorities between Issue 203 & Issue 199
15:59:21 <judy> Requests from H5 CoChairs for more info on Issue 194: Video transcript
15:59:23 <judy> Review of actual alts in HTML WG specs, David completed review
15:59:23 <janina> mike: One more important thing 
15:59:25 <judy> Intend to present these as bugs at level of editorial clarifications
15:59:27 <judy> Review of alt guidance in HTML5 spec and SF's doc, David also taking up
15:59:28 <janina> topic: text subteam report
15:59:30 <judy> DM & JS having work session on both this Friday
15:59:32 <judy> Issue 204, ARIA hidden, John merging his CP, Laura likely to w/ pending edits
15:59:34 <judy> Issue 31c, Meta generator, draft CP in progress, available for comment shortly
15:59:36 <judy> Issue 203, Media descriptions, John expects to have draft by Thursday
15:59:38 <judy> Issue 194, Video transcripts, Mike will have on agenda this Thursday
15:59:39 <judy> === end of text subteam report ===
16:00:53 <janina> judy: also still working on meta generator draft ...
16:01:22 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
16:01:50 <janina> mike: other business for today?
16:01:53 <janina> [silence]
16:01:59 <Zakim> -Rich
16:01:59 <janina> mike: no meeting next week ...
16:02:05 <janina> mike: we have the f2f
16:02:10 <janina> mike: next meeting may 9
16:02:10 <MikeSmith> chair's feedback about JF issue-194 - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0141.html
16:02:16 <Zakim> -Mike
16:02:19 <Zakim> -Judy
16:02:22 <Zakim> -John_Foliot
16:02:25 <Zakim> -Cooper
16:02:28 <janina> zakim, bye
16:02:28 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were John_Foliot, Janina, Judy, Mike, Cooper, Rich, Cynthia_Shelly
16:02:28 <Zakim> Zakim has left #html-a11y
16:02:43 <janina> rrsagent, make log public
16:02:54 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-html-a11y-minutes.html janina
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