IRC log of xproc on 2012-04-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:57:04 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #xproc
13:57:04 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:57:07 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #xproc
13:57:14 [Norm]
zakim, this will be xproc
13:57:14 [Zakim]
ok, Norm; I see XML_PMWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
13:57:22 [Norm]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
13:57:22 [Norm]
Meeting: XML Processing Model WG
13:57:24 [Norm]
Date: 19 April 2012
13:57:26 [Norm]
13:57:28 [Norm]
Meeting: 213
13:57:30 [Norm]
Chair: Norm
13:57:32 [Norm]
Scribe: Norm
13:57:34 [Norm]
ScribeNick: Norm
13:57:40 [Norm]
Regrets: Cornelia, Jim
13:57:45 [Vojtech]
Vojtech has joined #xproc
14:01:26 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()10:00AM has now started
14:01:33 [Zakim]
14:01:37 [ht]
ht has joined #xproc
14:01:51 [Zakim]
14:02:03 [alexmilowski]
alexmilowski has joined #xproc
14:02:21 [Zakim]
14:02:23 [Norm]
zakim, passcode?
14:02:42 [Zakim]
the conference code is 97762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, Norm
14:03:10 [alexmilowski]
There is nothing to hear as of yet.
14:03:27 [Zakim]
14:03:38 [Norm]
zakim, who's here?
14:03:54 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Vojtech, Alex_Milows, ht, Norm
14:04:00 [Zakim]
On IRC I see alexmilowski, ht, Vojtech, Zakim, RRSAgent, Norm, Liam, caribou
14:04:17 [Zakim]
14:04:23 [Norm]
Present: Vojtech, Alex, Henry, Norm, Murray
14:05:16 [Norm]
Topic: Accept this agenda?
14:05:16 [Norm]
14:05:37 [Norm]
Norm was going to add the zip questions, but in Jim's absence...
14:05:39 [Norm]
14:05:43 [Norm]
Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
14:05:43 [Norm]
14:05:48 [Norm]
14:05:53 [Norm]
Topic: Next meeting: telcon, 26 April 2012
14:06:09 [Norm]
No regrets heard.
14:06:28 [Norm]
Topic: Review of open action items
14:06:57 [Norm]
No progress reported on any actions #sadpanda
14:07:07 [Norm]
Topic: Review of requirements and use cases
14:07:16 [Norm]
14:07:56 [Norm]
Norm: There's been some email; we could go there or if Murray, there's anything you're looking for...
14:08:08 [Norm]
Murray: I'd like to walk through the use cases and see which, if any, are thought to be incomplete.
14:08:41 [Norm]
Norm; Murray, lead on!
14:09:00 [Norm]
Topic: 5.7 Extracting MathML
14:09:09 [Norm]
Alex: This is the one I'm going to write about, but haven't yet.
14:09:16 [Norm]
ACTION: Alex to write about 5.7, extracting MathML
14:09:49 [Norm]
Topic: 5.12 A Simple Transformation Service
14:10:00 [Norm]
Alex: Depends on what we mean by persistence.
14:10:10 [Norm]
ACTION: Alex to write up a description of persistence for 5.12
14:11:17 [Norm]
Topic: 5.13 Service Request/Response Handling on a Handheld
14:11:39 [Norm]
Alex: That could be interpreted many different ways
14:11:57 [Norm]
Vojtech: We can construct pipelines in the browser and submit them to the server, you could do that on a handheld.
14:12:15 [Norm]
Norm: We could drop it.
14:12:20 [Norm]
Alex: It's underspecified.
14:13:05 [Norm]
Norm: We could satisfy the letter of this req. along the lines Vojtech decided, but it'd take half a day and we could do other things with that half day. Let's drop it.
14:13:08 [Norm]
Alex: I agree.
14:13:13 [Norm]
ACTION: Murray to drop 5.13
14:13:23 [Norm]
Topic: 5.14 Interact with a Web Service
14:13:31 [Norm]
ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.14
14:13:53 [Norm]
Topic: 5.15 Parse and/or serialize RSS
14:14:00 [Norm]
ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.15
14:14:37 [Norm]
Topic: 5.16 XQuery and XSLT 2.0 Collections
14:15:22 [Norm]
Alex: Can we do this in XSLT?
14:15:58 [Norm]
Norm: I think you can.
14:16:10 [Norm]
Alex: I think we'd need to make the "collection" step explicit.
14:16:25 [Norm]
ACTION: Norm to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.16
14:16:40 [Norm]
Topic: 5.17 An AJAX Server
14:16:56 [Norm]
Vojtech: I think 5.17 and 5.12 are the same.
14:17:43 [Norm]
ACTION: Jim to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.17
14:18:16 [Norm]
Topic: 5.18 Dynamic XQuery
14:18:24 [Norm]
ACTION: Norm to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.18
14:18:47 [Norm]
Topic: 5.19 Read/Write Non-XML File
14:18:53 [Norm]
Murray: We don't have a step to read non-XML.
14:19:02 [Norm]
Alex; You did some work in this area, yes?
14:19:12 [Norm]
Vojtech: Yes, but it's not version 1.0 compatible.
14:19:16 [Norm]
Alex: I think that's ok.
14:19:54 [Norm]
Vojtech: I can do this one, I can add a pointer to the paper
14:20:08 [Norm]
Norm: I think this is a clear requirement for XProc
14:20:18 [Norm]
Alex: You could do this today with p:data and using XSLT to parse out the data.
14:20:54 [Norm]
Norm: Yes, I think we should be able to do better in
14:21:20 [Norm]
Murray: I think we should not write ths up then, it's a requirement
14:21:44 [Norm]
ACTION: Vojtech to send a pointer to his XML Prague paper to Murray
14:21:53 [Norm]
Topic: 5.20 Update/Insert Document in a Database
14:22:05 [Norm]
Some discussion of various approaches, EMC & MarkLogic included.
14:22:28 [Norm]
Vojtech: There's nothing special about the pipelines, it's just behind the scenes a connection to a database.
14:22:44 [Norm]
Alex: I thought about this with the MarkLogic steps. There's no reason why they wouldn't work with eXist.
14:22:52 [Norm]
...It's pretty generic.
14:23:14 [Norm]
...Would there be value in trying to have a standard way to connect at least to XML databases.
14:23:57 [Norm]
Norm: This sounds to me like a requirement for a new atomic step or set of atomic steps.
14:24:40 [Norm]
Norm: I worry about the details, but we can certainly put a stake in the ground and look at designing atomic steps.
14:25:30 [Norm]
Murray: We should be able to design the steps, whether or not they'd be satisfactory is an open question.
14:26:11 [Norm]
Henry: In the distant past with the Markup Engine, I ended up implementing a very simple gateway to a relational database. It turned out that there were a number of tasks we were exploring where you wanted to be able to look up an atomic item in a relation database.
14:26:34 [Norm]
...I think that's worth exploring. There are a bunch of existence proofs, whether there's a sweet spot is an open question.
14:26:47 [ht]
14:27:02 [Norm]
Topic: 5.21-22 Content-dependent/configuration-dependent transformations
14:27:08 [Norm]
Murray: They seem like they'd be easy.
14:27:21 [Norm]
ACTION: Vojtech to write pipelines to demontrate 5.21 and 5.22
14:27:37 [Norm]
Topic: 5.23 Response to XML-RPC request
14:28:14 [Norm]
Norm: I think this duplicates 5.12 and 5.17
14:28:26 [Norm]
Vojtech: Well, there's some conditionality in here. I can take a look.
14:28:34 [Norm]
ACTION: Vojtech to consider writing a pipeline for 5.23
14:29:28 [Norm]
Topic: 5.24 Database import/ingestion
14:29:44 [Norm]
Norm: Maybe we should combine 5.20 and 5.24 into a more wholistic requirement
14:29:56 [Norm]
Topic: 5.25 Metadata retreival
14:30:00 [Norm]
14:30:34 [Norm]
Discussion suggests that this is similar to 5.12, 5.17, etc.
14:31:15 [Norm]
Alex: Maybe we need a more general: pipeline performs query and formats results.
14:31:26 [Norm]
Topic: 5.26 Non-XML doument production
14:31:43 [Norm]
Murray: This is something we can do today.
14:31:47 [Norm]
Alex: Well, sortof.
14:32:10 [Norm]
...I wonder if we want to combine this with the non-XML input example.
14:33:27 [Norm]
Topic: 5.27 Integerate computational components
14:33:37 [Norm]
ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.28
14:33:40 [Norm]
Topic: 5.28 DSDL
14:34:26 [alexmilowski]
Veronika cries about DSDL
14:36:21 [Norm]
Norm: I think the salient issue here is whether we want to allow multiple numbers of inputs and outputs
14:36:39 [Norm]
Alex: Do we have any other use case that has that feature requirmenet.
14:39:49 [Norm]
ACTION: Norm to write up a description of the split step and the eval step to inform discussion of multiple inputs and outputs
14:41:46 [Norm]
Henry: I doubt that the complexity is worth the functionality, but we'll see.
14:41:59 [Norm]
Topic: 5.29 Large document subtree iteration
14:42:55 [Norm]
Alex: I can write this up. This is a streaming use case. Nothing prevents p:viewport from doing this, but your implementation may not work that way.
14:43:28 [Norm]
ACTION: Alex to write up 5.29
14:44:14 [Norm]
Norm: Isn't 5.30 just an example of 5.29?
14:44:16 [Norm]
Alex: Yes.
14:44:26 [Norm]
Topic: 5.31 Fallback of XSLT processor choice
14:45:25 [Norm]
Vojtech: There are a couple of different ways to interpret this.
14:45:47 [Norm]
Norm expresses concerns about the multiple output document.
14:47:28 [Norm]
Norm: I'm all for writing it up, but let's leave out multiple output documents because it's a side issue
14:48:18 [Norm]
ACTION: Vojtech and Norm to collaborate on writing up 5.31
14:48:58 [Norm]
Topic: 5.32 No fallback for XQuery
14:49:07 [Norm]
Vojtech: The pipeline will fail at runtime not compile time.
14:49:43 [Norm]
Norm: I can see how a long run that failed because of the last step would be annoying.
14:49:56 [Norm]
Alex: But we have step-available, so this is solved.
14:51:07 [Norm]
Norm: I agree.
14:51:18 [Norm]
ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline for 5.32
14:51:52 [Norm]
Topic: Any other business
14:52:14 [Norm]
Murray: I only recently came across the mail that says the aims of this effort is at low-hanging fruit.
14:52:25 [Norm]
...You can see from this document that I didn't know that.
14:52:43 [Norm]
...When we're talking about resource management, are we being entirely opportunistic?
14:52:52 [Norm]
...Or is there room for something like a webdav.
14:54:37 [Norm]
Norm observes that we did the low-hanging fruit thing in order to be done quickly.
14:54:45 [Norm]
Alex: Why can't we just add a requirmenet for webdav?
14:54:57 [Norm]
Norm: I'm all for adding the requirement
14:55:14 [Norm]
Alex: The deeper question of resource management is still an open issue I think.
14:56:06 [Norm]
Norm: On the resource manager, I think we agreed to talk about it but not put it in the critical path.
14:56:13 [Norm]
Alex: where are the use cases?
14:56:27 [Norm]
ACTION: Norm to write a few resource manager use cases
14:56:49 [Norm]
Murray: The other thing is debugging.
14:57:50 [Norm]
...Who's the champion for debugging?
14:58:48 [Norm]
Norm observes that he'd do it if he had a coupleof years salary in the bank
14:59:06 [Norm]
Alex: Can we engage a tool vendor to help in this area?
14:59:33 [Norm]
Murray: I gotta hope there's more to the story than log messages.
14:59:56 [Norm]
...I know we can do better. What I'm finding it hard to find in the spec is all the ways I can get information.
15:00:24 [Norm]
Alex: I sort of divided the world into debugging vs. tracing a profiling. Should we address this in the spec?
15:00:32 [Norm]
ACTION: Norm to put "debugging" on the agenda for next week
15:01:35 [Norm]
Henry: I was surprised and impressed that the XQuery implementations got as far as they did. Here's a use case: can you write an XProc processor in XProc?
15:01:37 [Norm]
...I don't think so.
15:02:22 [Norm]
...Another way to put it is, is there an "evaluate this step" step?
15:02:25 [Norm]
Norm: Only in extensions.
15:02:35 [Norm]
15:02:36 [Zakim]
15:02:40 [Zakim]
15:02:46 [Norm]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:02:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Norm
15:02:46 [Zakim]
15:02:48 [Zakim]
15:02:52 [Zakim]
15:02:54 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()10:00AM has ended
15:02:56 [Zakim]
Attendees were Vojtech, Alex_Milows, ht, Norm, Murray
16:21:54 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #xproc