13:57:04 RRSAgent has joined #xproc 13:57:04 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-irc 13:57:07 Zakim has joined #xproc 13:57:14 zakim, this will be xproc 13:57:14 ok, Norm; I see XML_PMWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes 13:57:22 rrsagent, set logs world-visible 13:57:22 Meeting: XML Processing Model WG 13:57:24 Date: 19 April 2012 13:57:26 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-agenda 13:57:28 Meeting: 213 13:57:30 Chair: Norm 13:57:32 Scribe: Norm 13:57:34 ScribeNick: Norm 13:57:40 Regrets: Cornelia, Jim 13:57:45 Vojtech has joined #xproc 14:01:26 XML_PMWG()10:00AM has now started 14:01:33 +Vojtech 14:01:37 ht has joined #xproc 14:01:51 +Alex_Milows 14:02:03 alexmilowski has joined #xproc 14:02:21 +??P21 14:02:23 zakim, passcode? 14:02:42 the conference code is 97762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Norm 14:03:10 There is nothing to hear as of yet. 14:03:27 +Norm 14:03:38 zakim, who's here? 14:03:54 On the phone I see Vojtech, Alex_Milows, ht, Norm 14:04:00 On IRC I see alexmilowski, ht, Vojtech, Zakim, RRSAgent, Norm, Liam, caribou 14:04:17 +Murray 14:04:23 Present: Vojtech, Alex, Henry, Norm, Murray 14:05:16 Topic: Accept this agenda? 14:05:16 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-agenda 14:05:37 Norm was going to add the zip questions, but in Jim's absence... 14:05:39 Accepted. 14:05:43 Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting? 14:05:43 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/12-minutes 14:05:48 Accepted. 14:05:53 Topic: Next meeting: telcon, 26 April 2012 14:06:09 No regrets heard. 14:06:28 Topic: Review of open action items 14:06:57 No progress reported on any actions #sadpanda 14:07:07 Topic: Review of requirements and use cases 14:07:16 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2012Apr/0024.html 14:07:56 Norm: There's been some email; we could go there or if Murray, there's anything you're looking for... 14:08:08 Murray: I'd like to walk through the use cases and see which, if any, are thought to be incomplete. 14:08:41 Norm; Murray, lead on! 14:09:00 Topic: 5.7 Extracting MathML 14:09:09 Alex: This is the one I'm going to write about, but haven't yet. 14:09:16 ACTION: Alex to write about 5.7, extracting MathML 14:09:49 Topic: 5.12 A Simple Transformation Service 14:10:00 Alex: Depends on what we mean by persistence. 14:10:10 ACTION: Alex to write up a description of persistence for 5.12 14:11:17 Topic: 5.13 Service Request/Response Handling on a Handheld 14:11:39 Alex: That could be interpreted many different ways 14:11:57 Vojtech: We can construct pipelines in the browser and submit them to the server, you could do that on a handheld. 14:12:15 Norm: We could drop it. 14:12:20 Alex: It's underspecified. 14:13:05 Norm: We could satisfy the letter of this req. along the lines Vojtech decided, but it'd take half a day and we could do other things with that half day. Let's drop it. 14:13:08 Alex: I agree. 14:13:13 ACTION: Murray to drop 5.13 14:13:23 Topic: 5.14 Interact with a Web Service 14:13:31 ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.14 14:13:53 Topic: 5.15 Parse and/or serialize RSS 14:14:00 ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.15 14:14:37 Topic: 5.16 XQuery and XSLT 2.0 Collections 14:15:22 Alex: Can we do this in XSLT? 14:15:58 Norm: I think you can. 14:16:10 Alex: I think we'd need to make the "collection" step explicit. 14:16:25 ACTION: Norm to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.16 14:16:40 Topic: 5.17 An AJAX Server 14:16:56 Vojtech: I think 5.17 and 5.12 are the same. 14:17:43 ACTION: Jim to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.17 14:18:16 Topic: 5.18 Dynamic XQuery 14:18:24 ACTION: Norm to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.18 14:18:47 Topic: 5.19 Read/Write Non-XML File 14:18:53 Murray: We don't have a step to read non-XML. 14:19:02 Alex; You did some work in this area, yes? 14:19:12 Vojtech: Yes, but it's not version 1.0 compatible. 14:19:16 Alex: I think that's ok. 14:19:54 Vojtech: I can do this one, I can add a pointer to the paper 14:20:08 Norm: I think this is a clear requirement for XProc V.next 14:20:18 Alex: You could do this today with p:data and using XSLT to parse out the data. 14:20:54 Norm: Yes, I think we should be able to do better in V.next 14:21:20 Murray: I think we should not write ths up then, it's a V.next requirement 14:21:44 ACTION: Vojtech to send a pointer to his XML Prague paper to Murray 14:21:53 Topic: 5.20 Update/Insert Document in a Database 14:22:05 Some discussion of various approaches, EMC & MarkLogic included. 14:22:28 Vojtech: There's nothing special about the pipelines, it's just behind the scenes a connection to a database. 14:22:44 Alex: I thought about this with the MarkLogic steps. There's no reason why they wouldn't work with eXist. 14:22:52 ...It's pretty generic. 14:23:14 ...Would there be value in trying to have a standard way to connect at least to XML databases. 14:23:57 Norm: This sounds to me like a requirement for a new atomic step or set of atomic steps. 14:24:40 Norm: I worry about the details, but we can certainly put a stake in the ground and look at designing atomic steps. 14:25:30 Murray: We should be able to design the steps, whether or not they'd be satisfactory is an open question. 14:26:11 Henry: In the distant past with the Markup Engine, I ended up implementing a very simple gateway to a relational database. It turned out that there were a number of tasks we were exploring where you wanted to be able to look up an atomic item in a relation database. 14:26:34 ...I think that's worth exploring. There are a bunch of existence proofs, whether there's a sweet spot is an open question. 14:26:47 s/relation/relational/ 14:27:02 Topic: 5.21-22 Content-dependent/configuration-dependent transformations 14:27:08 Murray: They seem like they'd be easy. 14:27:21 ACTION: Vojtech to write pipelines to demontrate 5.21 and 5.22 14:27:37 Topic: 5.23 Response to XML-RPC request 14:28:14 Norm: I think this duplicates 5.12 and 5.17 14:28:26 Vojtech: Well, there's some conditionality in here. I can take a look. 14:28:34 ACTION: Vojtech to consider writing a pipeline for 5.23 14:29:28 Topic: 5.24 Database import/ingestion 14:29:44 Norm: Maybe we should combine 5.20 and 5.24 into a more wholistic requirement 14:29:56 Topic: 5.25 Metadata retreival 14:30:00 s/treiv/triev/ 14:30:34 Discussion suggests that this is similar to 5.12, 5.17, etc. 14:31:15 Alex: Maybe we need a more general: pipeline performs query and formats results. 14:31:26 Topic: 5.26 Non-XML doument production 14:31:43 Murray: This is something we can do today. 14:31:47 Alex: Well, sortof. 14:32:10 ...I wonder if we want to combine this with the non-XML input example. 14:33:27 Topic: 5.27 Integerate computational components 14:33:37 ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.28 14:33:40 Topic: 5.28 DSDL 14:34:26 Veronika cries about DSDL 14:36:21 Norm: I think the salient issue here is whether we want to allow multiple numbers of inputs and outputs 14:36:39 Alex: Do we have any other use case that has that feature requirmenet. 14:39:49 ACTION: Norm to write up a description of the split step and the eval step to inform discussion of multiple inputs and outputs 14:41:46 Henry: I doubt that the complexity is worth the functionality, but we'll see. 14:41:59 Topic: 5.29 Large document subtree iteration 14:42:55 Alex: I can write this up. This is a streaming use case. Nothing prevents p:viewport from doing this, but your implementation may not work that way. 14:43:28 ACTION: Alex to write up 5.29 14:44:14 Norm: Isn't 5.30 just an example of 5.29? 14:44:16 Alex: Yes. 14:44:26 Topic: 5.31 Fallback of XSLT processor choice 14:45:25 Vojtech: There are a couple of different ways to interpret this. 14:45:47 Norm expresses concerns about the multiple output document. 14:47:28 Norm: I'm all for writing it up, but let's leave out multiple output documents because it's a side issue 14:48:18 ACTION: Vojtech and Norm to collaborate on writing up 5.31 14:48:58 Topic: 5.32 No fallback for XQuery 14:49:07 Vojtech: The pipeline will fail at runtime not compile time. 14:49:43 Norm: I can see how a long run that failed because of the last step would be annoying. 14:49:56 Alex: But we have step-available, so this is solved. 14:51:07 Norm: I agree. 14:51:18 ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline for 5.32 14:51:52 Topic: Any other business 14:52:14 Murray: I only recently came across the mail that says the aims of this effort is at low-hanging fruit. 14:52:25 ...You can see from this document that I didn't know that. 14:52:43 ...When we're talking about resource management, are we being entirely opportunistic? 14:52:52 ...Or is there room for something like a webdav. 14:54:37 Norm observes that we did the low-hanging fruit thing in order to be done quickly. 14:54:45 Alex: Why can't we just add a requirmenet for webdav? 14:54:57 Norm: I'm all for adding the requirement 14:55:14 Alex: The deeper question of resource management is still an open issue I think. 14:56:06 Norm: On the resource manager, I think we agreed to talk about it but not put it in the critical path. 14:56:13 Alex: where are the use cases? 14:56:27 ACTION: Norm to write a few resource manager use cases 14:56:49 Murray: The other thing is debugging. 14:57:50 ...Who's the champion for debugging? 14:58:48 Norm observes that he'd do it if he had a coupleof years salary in the bank 14:59:06 Alex: Can we engage a tool vendor to help in this area? 14:59:33 Murray: I gotta hope there's more to the story than log messages. 14:59:56 ...I know we can do better. What I'm finding it hard to find in the spec is all the ways I can get information. 15:00:24 Alex: I sort of divided the world into debugging vs. tracing a profiling. Should we address this in the spec? 15:00:32 ACTION: Norm to put "debugging" on the agenda for next week 15:01:35 Henry: I was surprised and impressed that the XQuery implementations got as far as they did. Here's a use case: can you write an XProc processor in XProc? 15:01:37 ...I don't think so. 15:02:22 ...Another way to put it is, is there an "evaluate this step" step? 15:02:25 Norm: Only in extensions. 15:02:35 Adjourned. 15:02:36 -ht 15:02:40 -Vojtech 15:02:46 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:02:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html Norm 15:02:46 -Norm 15:02:48 -Alex_Milows 15:02:52 -Murray 15:02:54 XML_PMWG()10:00AM has ended 15:02:56 Attendees were Vojtech, Alex_Milows, ht, Norm, Murray 16:21:54 Zakim has left #xproc