IRC log of ua on 2012-04-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:26:51 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:26:51 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-ua-irc
16:26:53 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:26:53 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
16:26:55 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:26:55 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 34 minutes
16:26:56 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:26:56 [trackbot]
Date: 19 April 2012
16:27:16 [JAllan]
rrsagent, set logs public
16:30:53 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Face to Face Logistics
16:30:55 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Scope of UAAG 2.0
16:30:56 [JAllan]
Agenda+ 1.2.1 and 1.2.2 – Action 712 on JAN http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0034.html
16:30:58 [JAllan]
Agenda+ 1.3.2 editors note, needs visual highlighting added (Kim?)
16:31:00 [JAllan]
Agenda+ 1.3.3, 1.5.1 needs decision on whether it is done or not - Action item 723 on Kim
16:31:01 [JAllan]
Agenda+ 1.7 Action-657 Jeanne (adding Wayne's final proposal ... which one, we edited it)
16:31:03 [JAllan]
Agenda+ 1.8 Action-631 Jeanne (add new wording) Action-662 Jeanne (add revised wording)
16:31:04 [JAllan]
Agenda+ 1.10.2 Action-639 Jan (revise for proposal)
16:31:06 [JAllan]
Agenda+ 1.11.1 & 1.11.2 Action-467 Jim (revise for proposal)
16:31:07 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Review any other proposals sent to list
16:31:09 [JAllan]
regrets: Kelly, wayne
16:47:59 [JAllan_]
JAllan_ has joined #ua
16:56:13 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
16:59:01 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
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+Jeanne
16:59:49 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
16:59:50 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
16:59:50 [Zakim]
Attendees were Jeanne
17:00:15 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:00:20 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
17:00:29 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:00:48 [Zakim]
+Greg_Lowney
17:01:17 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
17:01:26 [Jan]
zakim, code?
17:01:26 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan
17:02:22 [Zakim]
+??P1
17:02:38 [Jan]
zakim, ??P1 is really Jan
17:02:38 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
17:07:30 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda?
17:07:30 [Zakim]
I see 10 items remaining on the agenda:
17:07:31 [Zakim]
1. Face to Face Logistics [from JAllan]
17:07:31 [Zakim]
2. Scope of UAAG 2.0 [from JAllan]
17:07:31 [Zakim]
3. 1.2.1 and 1.2.2 – Action 712 on JAN http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0034.html [from JAllan]
17:07:31 [Zakim]
4. 1.3.2 editors note, needs visual highlighting added (Kim?) [from JAllan]
17:07:32 [Zakim]
5. 1.3.3, 1.5.1 needs decision on whether it is done or not - Action item 723 on Kim [from JAllan]
17:07:34 [Zakim]
6. 1.7 Action-657 Jeanne (adding Wayne's final proposal ... which one, we edited it) [from JAllan]
17:07:36 [Zakim]
7. 1.8 Action-631 Jeanne (add new wording) Action-662 Jeanne (add revised wording) [from JAllan]
17:07:38 [Zakim]
8. 1.10.2 Action-639 Jan (revise for proposal) [from JAllan]
17:07:40 [Zakim]
9. 1.11.1 & 1.11.2 Action-467 Jim (revise for proposal) [from JAllan]
17:07:41 [Zakim]
10. Review any other proposals sent to list [from JAllan]
17:07:47 [JAllan]
zakim, open item 1
17:07:47 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Face to Face Logistics" taken up [from JAllan]
17:09:24 [Zakim]
+Kim_Patch
17:11:57 [JAllan]
Hotel Allandale
17:11:58 [JAllan]
7685 Northcross Drive, Austin, TX 7875
17:12:00 [JAllan]
512-452-9391
17:12:01 [JAllan]
use group name TSBVI-UAAG
17:13:37 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
17:14:36 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
17:15:02 [JAllan]
$139.00 suite hotel
17:15:23 [JAllan]
zakim, close item 1
17:15:23 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Face to Face Logistics, closed
17:15:24 [Zakim]
I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:15:24 [Zakim]
2. Scope of UAAG 2.0 [from JAllan]
17:15:36 [JAllan]
zakim, open item 2
17:15:36 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Scope of UAAG 2.0" taken up [from JAllan]
17:15:41 [jeanne]
anyone looking for support in attending F2F contact jeanne this week.
17:16:50 [JAllan]
strategies for finishing the document (levels, sub documents, etc.)
17:17:29 [JAllan]
id the scope of features, stop adding SC, anything thing new goes into UAAG next.
17:17:52 [JAllan]
create a wiki to capture ideas
17:19:56 [JAllan]
Jeanne will look at ways to manage this information.
17:20:22 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to set up tracker document for UAAG.next issues and the syntax to add it to trackbot.
17:20:22 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-724 - Set up tracker document for UAAG.next issues and the syntax to add it to trackbot. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2012-04-26].
17:20:58 [JAllan]
all will have responsibility to call any SC a UAAG.next item
17:21:08 [JAllan]
zakim, close item 2
17:21:08 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Scope of UAAG 2.0, closed
17:21:10 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:21:10 [Zakim]
3. 1.2.1 and 1.2.2 – Action 712 on JAN http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0034.html [from JAllan]
17:21:37 [JAllan]
zakim, open next
17:21:37 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "1.2.1 and 1.2.2 – Action 712 on JAN http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0034.html" taken up [from JAllan]
17:21:53 [JAllan]
action-712
17:23:20 [JAllan]
back and forth. ATAG has 'let the UA repair missing information'.
17:24:03 [Jan]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2012/ED-UAAG20-20120411/#gl-missing-alt
17:24:19 [JAllan]
proposal:
17:25:06 [JAllan]
1.2.1 Support Repair by Assistive Technologies: If text alternatives for non-text content are missing or empty then both of the following are true: (Level A)
17:25:07 [JAllan]
(a) the user agent does not attempt to repair the text alternatives with text values that would also be available to assistive technologies.
17:25:09 [JAllan]
(b) the user agent makes metadata related to the non-text content available through the platform accessibility architecture.
17:25:10 [JAllan]
Note: Examples of text values that are also available to user agents, and should be avoided, include the filename, the file format, and generic phrases (e.g. "image").
17:25:12 [JAllan]
Ed. See http://www.w3.org/TR/ATAG20/#sc_b233
17:25:13 [JAllan]
Ed. This leaves open UAs generating captions for instance.
17:25:29 [JAllan]
1.2.2 Repair Missing Structure: The user can specify whether or not the user agent should attempt to predict the following relationships from author-specified presentation attributes (i.e. position and appearance): (Level AAA)
17:25:31 [JAllan]
(a) Labels
17:25:32 [JAllan]
(b) Headers
17:27:28 [JAllan]
headers = H1-6, TH
17:27:57 [Jan]
(b) Headers (i.e. heading markup, table headers)
17:28:29 [JAllan]
gl: 1.2.2 UA predict. what should it do once predicted?
17:28:45 [JAllan]
jr: it is repair, so it should do something.
17:29:33 [JAllan]
... UA already do lots of repair, fixing nesting, unclosed, non-valid, poorly formed documents.
17:29:42 [JAllan]
... this is a AAA
17:30:17 [JAllan]
gl: if it sees bold characters with : then it would be an inline heading 5
17:30:26 [JAllan]
jr: yes, user can specify
17:30:34 [JAllan]
gl: sounds reasonable
17:31:34 [jeanne]
insert code with improved semantics
17:32:24 [Jan]
1.2.2 Repair Missing Structure: The user can specify whether or not the user agent should attempt to adjust the structural markup from author-specified presentation attributes (i.e. position and appearance): (Level AAA)
17:33:34 [Jan]
1.2.2 Repair Missing Structure: The user can specify whether or not the user agent should attempt to insert the following types of structural markup on the basis of author-specified presentation attributes (i.e. position and appearance): (Level AAA)
17:34:04 [JAllan]
gl: will need intent and examples.
17:34:25 [JAllan]
... are there other examples that should fall into this category
17:34:51 [JAllan]
... image with text beneath it, UA creates a caption
17:35:13 [JAllan]
jr: image caption doesn't seem to fall in this.
17:36:27 [JAllan]
jr: paragraphs with *, this would be all things that trigger an accessibility flag.
17:36:58 [JAllan]
gl: note in the intent...UAs are encouraged to repair more.
17:37:33 [JAllan]
jr: don't want to get too far afield
17:38:48 [Jan]
Action JR: Write IER for the new "1.2.2 Repair Missing Structure"
17:38:48 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-725 - Write IER for the new "1.2.2 Repair Missing Structure" [on Jan Richards - due 2012-04-26].
17:38:57 [JAllan]
Resolution: add 1.2.2 Repair Missing Structure: The user can specify whether or not the user agent should attempt to insert the following types of structural markup on the basis of author-specified presentation attributes (i.e. position and appearance): (Level AAA)
17:38:59 [JAllan]
(a) Labels
17:39:00 [JAllan]
(b) Headers (i.e. heading markup, table headers)
17:39:22 [JAllan]
gl: question about 1.2.1
17:39:54 [JAllan]
does this prohibit the UA from showing the filename.
17:40:18 [JAllan]
jr: it would be prohibited from moving the file name to the @alt
17:40:33 [JAllan]
... it would be up to AT to present to the user
17:40:48 [JAllan]
... this would not change the DOM
17:41:32 [JAllan]
gl: want the UA to be able present information to the user
17:42:09 [JAllan]
... if images off, and no @alt, then UA could provide filename.
17:42:41 [JAllan]
gl: unsure about (b) the user agent makes metadata related to the non-text content available through the platform accessibility architecture.
17:42:53 [JAllan]
jr: questions also. this is from Simon.
17:43:15 [JAllan]
... this is information that is embedded within the media.
17:43:55 [JAllan]
gl: this info is not in the DOM or html attributes. only exists in attributes within the image.
17:45:16 [JAllan]
gl: if there is no standard field in A11y API to provide this information.
17:47:18 [JAllan]
jr: perhaps just say programmatic ally available and let the UA AT negotiate
17:47:51 [Jan]
(b) the user agent makes metadata related to the non-text content available programmatically (and not via fields reserved for text alternatives).
17:48:14 [JAllan]
gl: want to leave out platform a!!y architecture.
17:48:18 [jeanne]
+1
17:48:25 [JAllan]
+1
17:49:05 [Greg]
So UA would comply if it exposes exactly one piece of metadata, and it can be useless one?
17:49:40 [JAllan]
jr: it could. it is a low bar. use the IER to explain more.
17:50:50 [JAllan]
scribe: jallan
17:51:15 [JAllan]
jr: we are offloading image processing to the AT. so they would have to process all images.
17:51:56 [JAllan]
1.2.1 Support Repair by Assistive Technologies: If text alternatives for non-text content are missing or empty then both of the following are true: (Level A)
17:51:57 [JAllan]
(a) the user agent does not attempt to repair the text alternatives with text values that would also be available to assistive technologies.
17:51:59 [JAllan]
(b) the user agent makes metadata related to the non-text content available programmatically (and not via fields reserved for text alternatives).
17:52:14 [Greg]
I also think the wording should clarify that "metadata" does not mean *all* metadata, which would be impossible using platform accessibility API.
17:53:05 [Greg]
Although that would probably be phrased "*the* metadata" or "*all* metadata".
17:53:12 [JAllan]
ja: ***flag*** for call out when publishing the draft
17:55:23 [JAllan]
resolution: 1.2.1 Support Repair by Assistive Technologies: If text alternatives for non-text content are missing or empty then both of the following are true: (Level A)
17:55:25 [JAllan]
(a) the user agent does not attempt to repair the text alternatives with text values that would also be available to assistive technologies.
17:55:26 [JAllan]
(b) the user agent makes metadata related to the non-text content available programmatically (and not via fields reserved for text alternatives).
17:55:36 [JAllan]
all: discussion of metadata
17:55:54 [Jan]
Action JR: Write IER for the new "1.2.1 Support Repair by Assistive Technologies"
17:55:54 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-726 - Write IER for the new "1.2.1 Support Repair by Assistive Technologies" [on Jan Richards - due 2012-04-26].
17:56:09 [JAllan]
ja: this would be a good extension, to pull out all metadata related to an images
17:58:40 [JAllan]
close Action-712
17:58:40 [trackbot]
ACTION-712 Write an SC to substitute for 1.2.1 and 1.2.2 that gives the user the ability to request the meta data available for an object, closed
17:59:48 [JAllan]
zakim, close item 3
17:59:48 [Zakim]
agendum 3, 1.2.1 and 1.2.2 – Action 712 on JAN http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0034.html, closed
17:59:50 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:59:50 [Zakim]
4. 1.3.2 editors note, needs visual highlighting added (Kim?) [from JAllan]
18:00:04 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda"
18:00:04 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'agenda"', JAllan
18:00:09 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda?
18:00:09 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
18:00:11 [Zakim]
4. 1.3.2 editors note, needs visual highlighting added (Kim?) [from JAllan]
18:00:11 [Zakim]
5. 1.3.3, 1.5.1 needs decision on whether it is done or not - Action item 723 on Kim [from JAllan]
18:00:11 [Zakim]
6. 1.7 Action-657 Jeanne (adding Wayne's final proposal ... which one, we edited it) [from JAllan]
18:00:11 [Zakim]
7. 1.8 Action-631 Jeanne (add new wording) Action-662 Jeanne (add revised wording) [from JAllan]
18:00:11 [Zakim]
8. 1.10.2 Action-639 Jan (revise for proposal) [from JAllan]
18:00:14 [Zakim]
9. 1.11.1 & 1.11.2 Action-467 Jim (revise for proposal) [from JAllan]
18:00:14 [Zakim]
10. Review any other proposals sent to list [from JAllan]
18:02:40 [JAllan]
item 6 may already be done.
18:03:39 [JAllan]
For UAWG Action-690 proposals for Zooming 1.8.x http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0027.html
18:06:36 [Jan]
1.8.3 Resize Viewport: The user can make viewports resizable, within the limits of the display, overriding any values specified by the author. (Level A) ## DONE TPAC
18:08:13 [JAllan]
topic: Action-690
18:08:20 [JAllan]
1.8.X: Zoom: The user can rescale content within graphical viewports such that (Level A):
18:08:21 [JAllan]
(a) Lower rescale bound: The lower rescale bound is at least 10% or at least one dimension of the content can fit into the viewport without scrollbars. For text content, the language's text directionality will determine the dimension (e.g., horizontally oriented text should be rescaled such that horizontal scrollbars are not required).
18:08:23 [JAllan]
(b) Upper rescale bound: At least 1000%.
18:09:27 [JAllan]
jr: you can make text smaller down to 10% of size or until one scroll bar not required.
18:10:28 [JAllan]
gl: user should be able to scale between 10 and 1000%, or beable to fit with in the hor. or vert. bound of the viewport
18:10:36 [JAllan]
... need example
18:11:03 [JAllan]
jr: making text really small, its about getting a view of the layout.
18:11:57 [JAllan]
...a word document, only want to scroll vertically.
18:12:52 [JAllan]
gl: you have a long document, huge 25 feet wide, have to do 10% or 1 %
18:13:09 [JAllan]
jr: this is an 'or' so 10%
18:13:39 [JAllan]
... there may be formats where they know the bounding limits of the document.
18:14:03 [JAllan]
gl: I understand the concept, but the wording seems complicated.
18:14:45 [JAllan]
jr: only want to scale in 1 dimension, and background image comes into play.
18:15:07 [JAllan]
gl: does any UA do 10 to 1000?
18:15:18 [JAllan]
jr: word does 10 to 500
18:16:13 [JAllan]
gl: how do you calculate, no current UI for specific numbers
18:17:00 [JAllan]
ja: Opera has a numerical scale
18:17:08 [Greg]
Is there any real world example where all the reading direction thing would matter? Or in reality would this just be 10-1000%?
18:17:43 [Greg]
That is, a case where a UA would know the maximum width of a given file format and thus hard-code to it?
18:17:44 [JAllan]
ja: WCAG only has to 200%, are we extending it
18:18:31 [Greg]
I guess I lean towards the simpler 10-1000% unless we can come up with an example where the more complex case would apply.
18:19:27 [JAllan]
jr and js and ja don't think 200% is big enought.
18:19:42 [JAllan]
s/enought/enough
18:19:59 [Greg]
And is providing 1000% useful if the UA doesn't provide any UI to get that magnification other than pressing a Zoom command 700 times?
18:20:13 [JAllan]
jr: 10% or scale until only 1 scroll bar is required
18:20:56 [JAllan]
...it the UA know the dimension of the object you are looking at, you can shrink to 10% or its height or width fit in the viewport
18:22:03 [Greg]
Maybe a simpler way of saying it would be something along the lines of (a) if the file format can handle differing sizes, then 10-1000%, or (b) if the size is fixed, small enough to fit in the viewport for one dimension...
18:22:31 [JAllan]
jr: ok
18:23:46 [JAllan]
jan to rewrite 1.8.x
18:23:50 [Jan]
JR will take 690 again...working with Greg's wording
18:23:59 [JAllan]
topic: 1.8.y
18:24:02 [JAllan]
1.8.Y: Reflowing Zoom: The user can request that when content within a graphical viewport is rescaled, reflowable content is reflowed such that one dimension of the content can fit into the viewport without scrollbars (e.g., horizontally oriented text should be rescaled such that horizontal scrollbars are not required). (Level AA)
18:24:04 [JAllan]
Note: Limits to reflow include multi-media objects, words without spaces, and where the author prohibits wrapping.
18:25:13 [JAllan]
ja: should just be 'media objects'
18:25:32 [JAllan]
gl: note defines non-reflowable content
18:26:39 [Jan]
Note: Exceptions to reflowable content include media objects, words without spaces, and where the author prohibits wrapping.
18:27:59 [JAllan]
gl: questions limits of non-breaking content
18:28:15 [JAllan]
... don't want to be prescriptive
18:29:15 [JAllan]
jr: put in the examples, of non-breaking content. row of xxxxxx, etc, long URL, should be up to the UA how to break long text
18:29:53 [JAllan]
... how far does this go? flash content
18:30:23 [Greg]
User should have ability to force wrapping overriding author settings that prohibit wrapping. Yes, some things may break, just like they may break when colors are overridden, but the user should be allowed to try.
18:31:05 [JAllan]
ja: canvas is a non-reflowable object.
18:32:31 [JAllan]
gl: user should be allowed to override nowrap (by author)
18:32:48 [Greg]
Distinction between cases where the barrier to wrapping is technological (e.g. canvas, image, audio) vs. author preference (e.g. nowrap).
18:33:43 [Greg]
I'd handle that in definition of reflowable content?
18:33:50 [JAllan]
jr: layout engines have own rules, and may nativelively prohibit reflow.
18:35:00 [Greg]
Distinction between cases where the barrier to wrapping is technological (e.g. canvas, image, audio) vs. author preference (e.g. text with nowrap or pre), vs. things like long words with no spaces which might be left up to user agent/user?
18:35:30 [JAllan]
need a defintioon of reflow
18:36:13 [Greg]
Basically, horizontal scrolling (in horizontal languages) is an accessibility problem, and all things should address how the user can avoid that problem.
18:37:50 [JAllan]
s/defintioon/definition
18:38:55 [JAllan]
gr will work on definition of relowable. gr mentions e-pub has this concept may have a def.
18:39:20 [JAllan]
s/relowable/reflowable
18:41:02 [Zakim]
-Kim_Patch
18:41:03 [Zakim]
-Jan
18:41:05 [Zakim]
-Greg_Lowney
18:41:05 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
18:41:07 [Zakim]
-Jim_Allan
18:41:07 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:41:07 [Zakim]
Attendees were Jim_Allan, Jeanne, Greg_Lowney, Jan, Kim_Patch
18:41:12 [JAllan]
rrsagent make minutes
18:41:18 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:41:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:42:27 [JAllan]
chair: JimAllan, KellyFord
18:42:32 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:42:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:42:58 [JAllan]
rrsagent, please part
18:42:58 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-ua-actions.rdf :
18:42:58 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to set up tracker document for UAAG.next issues and the syntax to add it to trackbot. [1]
18:42:58 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-ua-irc#T17-20-22
18:42:58 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JR to Write IER for the new "1.2.2 Repair Missing Structure" [2]
18:42:58 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-ua-irc#T17-38-48
18:42:58 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JR to Write IER for the new "1.2.1 Support Repair by Assistive Technologies" [3]
18:42:58 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-ua-irc#T17-55-54
18:43:07 [JAllan]
zakim, please part
18:43:07 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua