IRC log of svg on 2012-04-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:59:21 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg
20:59:21 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-svg-irc
20:59:23 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
20:59:23 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #svg
20:59:25 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:59:25 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)5:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
20:59:26 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:59:26 [trackbot]
Date: 19 April 2012
21:00:44 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG(SVG1)5:00PM has now started
21:00:46 [Zakim]
+Doug_Schepers
21:00:50 [Zakim]
+??P12
21:01:04 [Zakim]
+??P14
21:01:18 [krit]
krit has joined #svg
21:01:24 [heycam]
Zakim, ??P14 is me
21:01:24 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
21:01:40 [cabanier]
cabanier has joined #svg
21:02:38 [heycam]
Zakim, who is on the call?
21:02:38 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P12, Doug_Schepers, heycam
21:02:56 [cabanier]
zakim, ??P12 is me
21:02:56 [Zakim]
+cabanier; got it
21:03:01 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
21:03:51 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
21:04:08 [krit]
I try, but I can not call in. The US number doesn't work for me
21:04:18 [heycam]
Zakim, code?
21:04:18 [Zakim]
the conference code is 7841 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), heycam
21:04:20 [jen]
jen has joined #svg
21:04:23 [ChrisL]
ChrisL has joined #svg
21:04:27 [Zakim]
+??P15
21:04:44 [Zakim]
+??P16
21:05:09 [Cyril]
Cyril has joined #svg
21:05:13 [krit]
heycam: I don't:(
21:05:20 [Cyril]
zakim, who is here?
21:05:20 [Zakim]
On the phone I see cabanier, Doug_Schepers, heycam, ??P15, ??P16
21:05:39 [Cyril]
it is working for me via Skype
21:05:49 [Cyril]
zakim, ??P16 is me
21:05:49 [Zakim]
+Cyril; got it
21:05:50 [cabanier]
for me too
21:05:55 [heycam]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJun/0014.html
21:05:58 [heycam]
Chair: Cameron
21:06:05 [Zakim]
+??P17
21:06:23 [Zakim]
+ChrisL
21:06:54 [ChrisL]
zakim, who is noisy?
21:07:04 [Zakim]
ChrisL, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: heycam (63%), Cyril (14%), ??P17 (30%)
21:07:23 [Zakim]
+ +61.2.980.5.aaaa
21:07:30 [ChrisL]
tav, speak for a moment
21:07:49 [ChrisL]
zakim, who is speaking?
21:08:00 [Zakim]
ChrisL, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: heycam (59%)
21:08:35 [heycam]
Scribe: krit
21:08:40 [nikos]
nikos has joined #svg
21:08:49 [krit]
topic: Progress update on SVG 2
21:08:56 [heycam]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Commitments
21:09:14 [krit]
heycam: Want to see the assignments on the wiki
21:09:46 [krit]
heycam: original plan was publish 1st WD at the end of the month
21:10:00 [krit]
heycam: will be sections added we assgined for
21:10:05 [krit]
heycam: + changes
21:10:18 [nikos]
Zakim, who's here
21:10:18 [Zakim]
nikos, you need to end that query with '?'
21:10:22 [nikos]
Zakim, who's here?
21:10:22 [Zakim]
On the phone I see cabanier, Doug_Schepers, heycam, ??P15, Cyril, ??P17, ChrisL, +61.2.980.5.aaaa
21:10:41 [Zakim]
-??P17
21:11:09 [Zakim]
- +61.2.980.5.aaaa
21:11:15 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
21:11:33 [Tav]
zakim, ??P15 is me
21:11:33 [Zakim]
+Tav; got it
21:11:41 [Zakim]
+ +61.2.980.5.aabb
21:11:58 [nikos]
Zakim, it's me
21:11:58 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'it's me', nikos
21:12:08 [Zakim]
+krit
21:12:18 [nikos]
Zakim, +61.2.680.5.aabb is me
21:12:18 [Zakim]
sorry, nikos, I do not recognize a party named '+61.2.680.5.aabb'
21:12:32 [nikos]
Zakim, 61.2.680.5.aabb is me
21:12:32 [Zakim]
sorry, nikos, I do not recognize a party named '61.2.680.5.aabb'
21:12:43 [heycam]
Zakim, +61.2 is nikos
21:12:43 [Zakim]
+nikos; got it
21:13:07 [krit1]
krit1 has joined #svg
21:13:41 [Zakim]
-Tav
21:15:07 [krit]
Cyril: it is a chnage to the planning on the page
21:15:14 [Cyril]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Planning_Page
21:15:40 [krit]
Cyril: all placeholdershould be published by april
21:15:59 [Zakim]
+??P15
21:16:00 [krit]
Cyril: we have to prepare for traveling and so on
21:16:20 [krit]
heycam: we won't publish the WD in april
21:16:29 [Tav]
zakim, ??P15 is me
21:16:29 [Zakim]
+Tav; got it
21:16:29 [krit]
Cyril: what about july? too late?
21:16:37 [krit]
heycam: it depends
21:16:59 [krit]
heycam: published draft even very intial would be goos
21:17:06 [krit]
s/goos/good/
21:17:42 [krit]
heycam: who did not so far, sign up till next week
21:17:50 [krit]
heycam: and add topics into spec
21:18:02 [krit]
shepazu: is playback for audio element? script API?
21:18:14 [krit]
heycam: let me take a look
21:18:37 [heycam]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2069
21:18:42 [krit]
heycam: proposals
21:19:10 [krit]
shepazu: markup properties or attrubutes?
21:19:56 [krit]
shepazu: I m not an audio guy but in the audiio WD. I won't work on it ut am happy to talk with the people there.
21:20:30 [krit]
shepazu: we should coordinate with audio WG
21:20:49 [krit]
heycam: move on
21:20:57 [krit]
shepazu: one more question
21:21:09 [krit]
shepazu: I put a question mark on one of the list items
21:21:19 [krit]
shepazu: In case someone wants to work on it
21:21:48 [krit]
shepazu: just contact on IRC
21:22:41 [krit]
heycam: even with question marks, looks like you are assigned
21:23:15 [krit]
shepazu: will we have a confilct
21:23:16 [krit]
?
21:23:53 [krit]
heycam: was off topic … confilcts on wiki page
21:23:59 [ChrisL]
I was editing (and saving) a bunch during the call
21:24:08 [krit]
heycam: next topic
21:24:39 [krit]
topic: SVG 2 editing process
21:24:47 [krit]
heycam: I came up with a proposal
21:24:55 [krit]
ChrisL: I think it is fine in general
21:25:08 [krit]
ChrisL: we can discuss if some one to objects
21:25:17 [heycam]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Editing_Process
21:25:18 [krit]
shepazu: It changes to resolved
21:28:35 [ChrisL]
q+ to ask about masks
21:28:46 [krit]
heycam: people asgined to a feature go ahead to change the section they are asigned for. Group will check it later
21:29:09 [krit]
s/later/afterwards/
21:30:21 [krit]
ChrisL: is the list is complete? I don't find sths, like mask (alpha, luminance)
21:31:09 [krit]
ChrisL: I'd like to assign for it
21:31:24 [krit]
krit: Vhardy and ed o'connnor want to work on it on FX TF
21:31:34 [krit]
ChrisL: right, but how does it get into SVG 2
21:31:46 [ChrisL]
ok as long as someone is doing it. css wg seems to want this urgently
21:32:59 [heycam]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2401
21:33:01 [Cyril]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#Hit-testing_on_image_alpha
21:33:26 [ChrisL]
cyril that is not the same
21:34:01 [krit]
ChrisL: people say we want what svg does
21:34:07 [krit]
ChrisL: but it does more than we want
21:34:12 [krit]
Cyril: can you explain
21:34:22 [krit]
ChrisL: currently masking use the mask element
21:34:42 [krit]
ChrisL: mask is done by calculating luminance and that gets multiplied with the alpha
21:34:58 [krit]
ChrisL: we may want just have alpha masking
21:35:12 [krit]
ChrisL: don't find resolutions for it
21:35:33 [ChrisL]
action: chris propose an update to masking for luminance and alpha and pointing directly at images
21:35:33 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3256 - Propose an update to masking for luminance and alpha and pointing directly at images [on Chris Lilley - due 2012-04-26].
21:36:09 [krit]
action: ChrisL will look at alpha masking and luminance masking and talk to vhardy
21:36:10 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3257 - Will look at alpha masking and luminance masking and talk to vhardy [on Chris Lilley - due 2012-04-26].
21:36:47 [Cyril]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#Late_Proposed_Requirements
21:37:24 [krit]
Cyril: we should take a look at the late propoesed requirementss
21:38:36 [Zakim]
-krit
21:38:43 [krit]
scribeNick: heycam
21:38:52 [ChrisL]
zakim, pick a victim
21:38:52 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ChrisL
21:39:01 [ChrisL]
scribenick: chrisl
21:39:34 [ChrisL]
Tav: can wee resolve on the requirement for masking
21:39:37 [ChrisL]
(yes)
21:39:53 [ChrisL]
resolution: we will allow masks to use either alpha or luminance or both
21:40:13 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: and pointing direct to images?
21:40:38 [ChrisL]
tav: how would you specify if you want alpha or what
21:40:48 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: the property would do that
21:41:38 [ChrisL]
resolution: : svg will relax restriction on masks pointing to mask element only
21:42:05 [ChrisL]
Cyril: did we resolve on the editing proposal
21:42:28 [ChrisL]
heycam: yas and we already resolved on it earlier apparently
21:42:50 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: prefer to soften the three week paer
21:42:52 [ChrisL]
tav: yes
21:42:57 [ChrisL]
heycam: ok
21:43:17 [ChrisL]
topic: test content guidelines
21:43:47 [Cyril]
rrsagent, pointer
21:43:47 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-svg-irc#T21-43-47
21:43:49 [ChrisL]
heycam: brian was aksing for guidelines so they can succeed or fail in the same way like all green rectangles
21:44:06 [ChrisL]
tav: like red and green but if they all look the same it is confusing
21:44:17 [ChrisL]
... doesnt say what is being tested
21:44:29 [ChrisL]
... dont want a rect that covers the whole thing
21:44:51 [ChrisL]
heycam: if the tests are automated you won't need to look at them
21:45:05 [ChrisL]
Tav: so there is no debugging help
21:45:17 [ChrisL]
Cyril: point is to automate error detection
21:45:56 [ChrisL]
heycam: also easier to make reference images. but with text or paths there can be pixel differences. also easier to determine pass or fail
21:46:25 [ChrisL]
Tav: but for transforms, css or attr version should be te same so no pixel diffferences
21:46:32 [ChrisL]
heycam: ok
21:47:06 [ChrisL]
heycam: some tests might be simple enough you want just a plain rect.
21:47:25 [ChrisL]
Tav: ok for red gren fail/pass unless it is testing colors
21:47:49 [ChrisL]
shepazu: we need to test for red colours for example
21:48:03 [ChrisL]
Tav: we did that on the last test suite
21:48:35 [ChrisL]
shepazu: good to have tests that can be automatically detected
21:48:51 [ChrisL]
Cyril: yes bt we do not need green flood fill for that
21:48:59 [ChrisL]
Tav: subtract the ref images
21:49:06 [ChrisL]
shepazu: ok
21:49:39 [ChrisL]
heycam: for animation, brian suggests tests where the final state is at one second so there is a snapshot to compare to the ref
21:50:00 [ChrisL]
heycam: script can sett the time to that point
21:50:45 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: for path animations you need multiple snapshots surely
21:51:13 [ChrisL]
heycam: we agreed to add snapshot time so we could use that to annotate the test
21:52:03 [ChrisL]
Cyril: gpac has a way to generate an xml which logs the snapshot time and you can have key events and when it replays, the snapshots are generated at the marked times
21:52:45 [ChrisL]
Cyril: want it sampled every time there is a change. the author knows the critical times
21:53:00 [ChrisL]
heycam: yes it is really a feature of the test itself
21:53:14 [ChrisL]
heycam: avoid tests with many simultaneous animations
21:53:32 [ChrisL]
tav: examples of animation reftests?
21:53:36 [ChrisL]
heycam: not yet
21:53:49 [ChrisL]
Cyril: can send an example
21:53:57 [Tav]
http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/CSS/Transforms/transforms-basic-001.html
21:54:03 [ChrisL]
action: cyril to send examples of gpac animation testing
21:54:03 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3258 - Send examples of gpac animation testing [on Cyril Concolato - due 2012-04-26].
21:54:29 [ChrisL]
heycam: like that excample, tav
21:54:37 [ChrisL]
tav: no browser passes yet
21:55:27 [ChrisL]
heycam: ok so aiming for a single green or red rect is not good, but if it is a simple pass/fail result then go for the rect
21:56:11 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: sometimes you can loose track if all the tests look the same
21:56:35 [ChrisL]
(general agreement)
21:57:04 [ChrisL]
heycam; does someone have an action to set up the test structure
21:57:20 [ChrisL]
tav: i set it up like css. each contributor has a submit directory
21:57:37 [ChrisL]
... once apprved they get moved
21:57:50 [ChrisL]
... the structure to run through the reftests is not done
21:58:10 [ChrisL]
heycam; wonder how easy t is to handle animation tests
21:58:28 [ChrisL]
tav: we talked with peter Linss who said it was possible. we need an example
22:00:26 [Zakim]
-ChrisL
22:00:29 [heycam]
ScribeNick: heycam
22:02:30 [heycam]
heycam: would be good to have these test guidelines on a wiki page
22:02:44 [heycam]
Tav: we also have the test template that I worked on
22:03:02 [heycam]
… we resolved on having a link to a copyright license, waiting on chris for that
22:04:10 [heycam]
ACTION: Cameron to create a test guideline page, mentioning rectangles and linking to template file
22:04:10 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3259 - Create a test guideline page, mentioning rectangles and linking to template file [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-04-26].
22:04:25 [heycam]
Topic: F2Fs
22:05:45 [heycam]
Tav: I will probably be going to SVG Open
22:06:02 [heycam]
heycam: I am not sure whether we want to meet at both SVG Open and TPAC
22:06:21 [Zakim]
+ChrisL
22:06:29 [ChrisL]
scribenick: ChrisL
22:08:35 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: (describes how to set up the css harness)
22:09:10 [ChrisL]
tav: can easily make a script that extracts that
22:09:50 [heycam]
ACTION: Tav to work with Chris to get test suite manifest scripts working
22:09:51 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3260 - Work with Chris to get test suite manifest scripts working [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2012-04-26].
22:09:55 [krit]
krit has joined #svg
22:10:05 [ChrisL]
action: tav work with chris to create the test manifest
22:10:05 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3261 - Work with chris to create the test manifest [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2012-04-26].
22:10:08 [Tav]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2/Testing_Requirements
22:10:20 [ChrisL]
tav: chris we still lack the copyright link
22:10:30 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: oh yes had forgotten about that
22:10:41 [ChrisL]
topic: f2f
22:11:08 [ChrisL]
heycam: lets not have 5 meetings
22:11:38 [ChrisL]
Cyril: is the seattle one necessary
22:12:47 [ChrisL]
shepazu; 5 is a lot
22:13:10 [ChrisL]
Cyril: how about a seattle-paris videoconferenced meeting?
22:13:30 [ChrisL]
Tav: its 9 hours difference. doable
22:13:51 [ChrisL]
Cyril: might have some videoconf. polycom thing.
22:14:08 [ChrisL]
cabanier: yes we have that too
22:14:17 [ChrisL]
Cyril: will not be able to make seattle
22:15:37 [ChrisL]
shepazu: maybe microsoft has facilities that would host this
22:15:47 [ChrisL]
jen: yeah we could look into that
22:16:25 [ChrisL]
25-27 july
22:16:41 [ChrisL]
cabanier: adone is hosting but no issue if microsoft hosts
22:16:56 [ChrisL]
Cyril; can tell you in a couple of weeks in paristech can host
22:17:41 [ChrisL]
ChrisL; a split paris-seattle would be good for me
22:18:43 [ChrisL]
ChrisL; would prefer to meet at svgopen rather thn tpac if we have to choose
22:18:55 [ChrisL]
shepazu; who is going to tpac anyway
22:18:59 [ChrisL]
(4 or 5)
22:19:13 [ChrisL]
shepazu: so maybe a short mostly-liaison meeting at tpac
22:19:52 [ChrisL]
heycam: ok so tell tpac that we only need one day?
22:20:31 [ChrisL]
resolved: one day liaison meeting at tpac
22:21:21 [ChrisL]
resolved: split seattle/paris ftf in july if feasible
22:22:20 [ChrisL]
resolved: meet at svgopen/graphicalweb in zurich, main meet rather than tpac
22:23:04 [ChrisL]
heycam: three meetings 2 months apart
22:23:16 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: but fits in well with svg2 editing push
22:23:49 [ChrisL]
topic: review of path related cancas additions
22:23:51 [heycam]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0192.html
22:25:03 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: dmitry had a nice proposal with a path-like syntax for animations
22:25:50 [ChrisL]
heycam: relevat for the improved dom work
22:26:24 [ChrisL]
... as for feedback to html, my comments in the mail are that its is generally ok
22:26:40 [ChrisL]
... but how the object relates to our pathseglist which is yucky
22:27:20 [ChrisL]
cabanier: idea is that people share knowledge between using canvas and svg
22:28:19 [ChrisL]
heycam; pathseglist can't assign a new object, need to either replace all items or set upa whole new path data stream
22:29:11 [ChrisL]
... so for dom improvement, we should improve path and that informs how we relate to the html canvas path api. need to lok at our improvements before deciding that
22:29:32 [ChrisL]
... use of svgmatrix, functions for path to stroke or svg text on path are all fine as is
22:29:52 [ChrisL]
shepazu: any other path based operations
22:30:13 [ChrisL]
heycam; can't get path data out. can only paint it. its opaque
22:30:55 [ChrisL]
shepazu: want an api that gives you vector effects like stuff
22:31:29 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: yes we said we would add that on vector effects
22:32:42 [ChrisL]
ChrisL; are the opaque path objects a problem here or not/ they can be manipulated, just not inspected
22:33:04 [ChrisL]
heycam; might be a simplification or might be a way to avoid exposing it to script
22:33:19 [ChrisL]
cabanier: gives more freedo on internal storage
22:33:52 [ChrisL]
... often you just want the result
22:34:17 [ChrisL]
shepazu: can you do it with text and thus capture the text
22:34:21 [ChrisL]
heycam: yes
22:34:40 [ChrisL]
... we wanted to capture tet as outlines
22:34:46 [ChrisL]
s/tet/text/
22:35:06 [ChrisL]
shepazu: so are these in the svg2 requirements
22:35:12 [ChrisL]
heycam: dont think
22:36:13 [ChrisL]
resolution: we will have a vector effects api to get reesulting paths (ned to discuss normalisation)
22:37:11 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: easier to implement if the generated paths are not standardised, onkly the shape they make
22:37:25 [ChrisL]
heycam: danger of a small, deep rathole
22:37:44 [ChrisL]
heycam: so for review comments
22:37:56 [ChrisL]
(general agreement with hecam's suggestions)
22:38:16 [ChrisL]
zakim, list attendees
22:38:16 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Doug_Schepers, heycam, cabanier, [Microsoft], Cyril, ChrisL, +61.2.980.5.aaaa, Tav, +61.2.980.5.aabb, krit, nikos
22:38:21 [ChrisL]
chair: heycam
22:38:22 [Zakim]
-cabanier
22:38:24 [heycam]
ACTION: Cameron to mail HTML WG with path API comments
22:38:24 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3262 - Mail HTML WG with path API comments [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-04-26].
22:38:24 [Zakim]
-ChrisL
22:38:26 [Zakim]
-Doug_Schepers
22:38:28 [Zakim]
-Cyril
22:38:29 [Zakim]
-heycam
22:38:29 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
22:38:34 [Zakim]
-Tav
22:38:34 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make minutes
22:38:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-svg-minutes.html ChrisL
22:38:36 [Zakim]
-nikos
22:38:37 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG(SVG1)5:00PM has ended
22:38:37 [Zakim]
Attendees were Doug_Schepers, heycam, cabanier, [Microsoft], Cyril, ChrisL, +61.2.980.5.aaaa, Tav, +61.2.980.5.aabb, krit, nikos
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