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14:35:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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14:35:39 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_XForms
14:35:39 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_XForms()11:00AM scheduled to start in 25 minutes
14:35:40 <trackbot> Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference
14:35:40 <trackbot> Date: 18 April 2012
14:45:02 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012Apr/0034.html
14:45:10 <Steven_> Steven_ has joined #forms
14:45:27 <Steven_> Chair: Steve
14:45:32 <Steven_> Chair: Steven
15:00:06 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has now started
15:00:10 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has ended
15:00:12 <Zakim> Attendees were 
15:01:34 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has now started
15:01:40 <Zakim> +??P16
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15:01:52 <Steven> zakim, I am ??P16
15:01:52 <Zakim> +Steven; got it
15:02:07 <Steven> zakim, Steven also has Nick
15:02:07 <Zakim> +Nick; got it
15:02:17 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:02:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/18-forms-minutes.html Steven
15:03:06 <Steven> s/Chair: Steven/Chair: Steve/
15:03:20 <Steven> s/Chair: Steve/Chair: Steven/g
15:03:27 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:03:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/18-forms-minutes.html Steven
15:03:45 <Zakim> +??P24
15:03:58 <alain> Zakim, ??P24 is alain
15:03:58 <Zakim> +alain; got it
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15:05:05 <Zakim> +John_Boyer
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15:10:20 <nvdbleek> scribe:nick
15:10:26 <nvdbleek> scribenick:nvdbleek
15:10:46 <Steven> Topic: Supporting AVTs in bind and model attributes
15:10:48 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012Apr/0024.html
15:11:18 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: Do we want to support AVTs in bind and model attributes?
15:11:35 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: I think we agreed previously to just call those out as binding exceptions for now.
15:11:41 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: Fine for me
15:13:00 <nvdbleek> ACTION: nick AVTs in bind and model attributes should not support AVTs
15:13:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1892 - AVTs in bind and model attributes should not support AVTs [on Nick Van Den Bleeken - due 2012-04-25].
15:13:03 <Steven> Topic: Acknowledgments
15:13:05 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012Apr/0011.html
15:13:27 <nvdbleek> Steven: What about past members
15:13:54 <nvdbleek> Steven: List everybody who worked on this version and take previous from previous spec
15:14:16 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: Alain and philip aren't listed
15:15:06 <nvdbleek> ACTION: nick we will update the Acknowledgments list in both specs
15:15:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1893 - We will update the Acknowledgments list in both specs [on Nick Van Den Bleeken - due 2012-04-25].
15:16:00 <Steven> Topic: Several updates to XPath Expressions Module
15:16:02 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012Apr/0013.html
15:16:42 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: xf:eval-in-context(), xf:replace() and xf:matches() pre-date the decision to target XPath 2.0 for XForms 2.0. And you don't need those functions if you have an XPath 2.0 engine.
15:16:54 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: We have three possibilities:
15:16:54 <nvdbleek> 1) Add those functions to XForms 2.0 like you have done
15:16:54 <nvdbleek> 2) Don't  add those functions to XForms 2.0 because you don't need them in XPath 2.0
15:16:54 <nvdbleek> 3) Create a separate section were we group all the functions that are no longer needed if you have an XPath 2.0 engine, but are there for 'backwards compatibility'.
15:18:40 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: The expression model support XPath 1.0 
15:20:07 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: eval-in-context() is for XPath 1.0 compatibility 
15:20:52 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: does an XForms engine that uses an xpath 2.0 engine also needs to implement xf:matches and xf:replace 
15:20:57 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XPath_Expressions_Module#The_matches.28.29_Function
15:22:29 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:22:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/18-forms-minutes.html Steven
15:22:43 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: An XForms implementer can just forward the functions to the xpath versions
15:24:27 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: We could add matches and replace to the default namespace to the default function namespace
15:25:32 <ebruchez> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XPath_Expressions_Module#The_XForms_Function_Library
15:26:07 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: in xforms 1.1 you can use is-card-number()
15:26:07 <nvdbleek> in XForms 2.0 this becomes xf:is-card-number() if xpath version is 2.0 in xpath 1.0 they are still in the default namespace
15:26:39 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: An implementation may choose to make these additional function also available in the http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath20/#dt-def-fn-nsXP when the XPath version on the model is not 1.0 if he has a good reason for it (e.g.: Backwards compatibility).
15:27:54 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: Depending on the implementation you may need to prefix functions if you switch to xpath 2.0
15:30:34 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: I propose: For backwards compatibility an implementation may make these additional function also available in the http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath20/#dt-def-fn-nsXP when the XPath version on the model is not 1.0
15:32:01 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: We should take it outside of a note
15:32:32 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: We should change this to should be in default namespace
15:35:12 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: we are taking a big step back when we say the 'should' be in the default namespace  because we don't know what functions would collide in the future. 
15:35:38 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: We should resolve what happens with the clashes
15:38:25 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: when XPath 2.0 is run in XPath 1.0 compatibility mode the functions are in the default namespace 
15:38:34 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: Take it out of note
15:39:09 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: We want to deprecate in the future, what about clashes
15:39:49 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: with clashes we could choose the use the standard XPath functions
15:40:15 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: in case of clash take standard XPath functions
15:40:32 <Steven> +1
15:40:37 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: I would like it to be q mqy
15:40:54 <nvdbleek> s/q mqy/a may/
15:41:06 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: must is to string, may is to weak
15:41:14 <Steven_> s/string/strong/
15:41:28 <Steven_> s/to /too /
15:41:30 <Steven_> s/to /too /
15:41:45 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: some people don't like optional features
15:44:45 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: I'm concerned to current implementations that already support XPath 2.0
15:47:24 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: The problem only occurs when you are switching implementations and they interprete the may differntly  
15:49:56 <nvdbleek> ACTION: nick to move text about backwards compatibility of functions out of note, make it may and deprecated 
15:49:56 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1894 - Move text about backwards compatibility of functions out of note, make it may and deprecated  [on Nick Van Den Bleeken - due 2012-04-25].
15:49:59 <Steven> Topic: Definition of "dependent" and "reference" in Proposed Erratum 14, XForms  
15:50:01 <Steven> 2.0, XPath Expression Module
15:50:03 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012Apr/0016.html
15:50:49 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: We had a lengthy discussion about this in the past
15:51:40 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: I added the text to expression module so it isn't lost
15:52:15 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: In the past we discussed to loosen the definition of reference to let all expressions work without the need of rebuild
15:53:27 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: I was raising the issue the the term reference was used and that the definition was to lax in the calculation algorithm, causing it to create to easy a circular reference
15:54:40 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: basically I tried to fix the problem for copute expressions, and not solve the complete problem with the reference definition 
15:54:57 <Steven_> s/copute/compute
15:55:28 <nvdbleek> Steven: You made the changes, what do we do with them
15:55:36 <nvdbleek> Steven: leave them?
15:57:15 <nvdbleek> Steven: everybody ok with this?
15:57:30 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: I'm re-reading it
15:57:56 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: [explains the changes he made]
15:59:13 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: can you explain briefly explain why you only depend child nodes and not parent node
16:00:37 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: when you have a node with attributes and child content, and the were doing calculations for the attributes and content in separate calculates, in the previous version this resulted in a circular dependency, now this no longer results in a circular dependency
16:01:25 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: what if an expression depends on attributes and text contents of a node
16:01:41 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: maybe the re-write isn't good enough...
16:02:30 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: we did some experiments using projections in Saxon
16:03:05 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: it uses paths for what you are referencing
16:04:27 <John_Boyer> How about something more like "A computed expression references an instance node and uses the character content of that instance node..."
16:04:37 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: if you have b you can depend on the existence of node b or on the atomization of the node n (text content), this resulted in two different dependencies in the projection 
16:05:34 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: that is exactly what the original e-mail stated 
16:07:21 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: should we maybe specify the diference between traversing a node a posed to using the text content 
16:08:02 <John_Boyer> If a computed expression references an instance node and uses its character content (rather than just referencing for navigation), then the computed expression is dependent on that instance node.
16:08:25 <ebruchez> +1
16:08:31 <Steven> +1
16:08:35 <nvdbleek> Steven: sounds good
16:08:38 <alain> +1
16:09:04 <nvdbleek> ACTION: John to update computation dependencies 'f a computed expression references an instance node and uses its character content (rather than just referencing for navigation), then the computed expression is dependent on that instance node.'
16:09:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1895 - Update computation dependencies 'f a computed expression references an instance node and uses its character content (rather than just referencing for navigation), then the computed expression is dependent on that instance node.' [on John Boyer - due 2012-04-25].
16:09:18 <Steven> Topic: Type information
16:09:21 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012Apr/0026.html
16:10:07 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: I haven't investigated it yet
16:10:51 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: pulling types in, changes the way expressions work, for example when a node is of type boolean it is no longer treated as a string but a boolean
16:11:35 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: in XSLT when a schema is attached to the data exressions also behave differently because the types of the nodes are known 
16:12:14 <Steven> s/exress/express/
16:12:31 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: The idea was to use the type information provided by binds, schema and xsi:type in the xpath engine
16:13:12 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: so if shipped is a boolean node it is treated as a boolean in an expression
16:13:35 <Zakim> -alain
16:14:37 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: in XForms we have to take into account what happens when the lexical value isn't conferment to its type (e.g.: xs:date) what should happen to that node (in XForms the instance contains invalid values)  
16:15:17 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: An option is to return a typed value when it is a valid value and an untyped value when it is invalid
16:17:08 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: We have to look to real use-cases to see what the impact is when changing from untyped to typed values
16:18:12 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: it is strange that you need to repeat the type information in your expressions by casting your nodes
16:18:20 <alain> I have been disconnected and now it says that "the conference is restricted"... so I'm just on IRC now...
16:18:25 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:18:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/18-forms-minutes.html Steven
16:19:22 <Steven> Topic: Made xpath error information available as context information for  
16:19:24 <Steven> xforms-compute-exception and xforms-binding-exception
16:19:26 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012Apr/0028.html
16:19:43 <nvdbleek> ACTION: Erik to send a e-mail to Michael Kay about providing type information to the nodes in instances 
16:19:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1896 - Send a e-mail to Michael Kay about providing type information to the nodes in instances  [on Erik Bruchez - due 2012-04-25].
16:20:32 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: I agree 
16:20:33 <Steven> Topic: Serializing XML declaration
16:20:36 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012Apr/0030.html
16:24:18 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: I responded that the format should be a space separated list of qnames specifying how serialization should happen
16:25:30 <nvdbleek> ACTION: John to update text of serialize() and parse() that format is a space separated list of qnames  
16:25:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1897 - Update text of serialize() and parse() that format is a space separated list of qnames   [on John Boyer - due 2012-04-25].
16:25:42 <Zakim> -Steven
16:25:43 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
16:25:43 <Zakim> -ebruchez
16:25:43 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has ended
16:25:43 <Zakim> Attendees were Steven, Nick, alain, John_Boyer, ebruchez
16:25:49 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:25:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/18-forms-minutes.html Steven
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17:46:13 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make minutes
17:46:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/18-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer
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