IRC log of css on 2012-04-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:44:07 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #css
15:44:07 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:44:21 [plinss]
zakim, this will be style
15:44:21 [Zakim]
ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 16 minutes
15:44:28 [plinss]
rrsagent, make logs public
15:54:24 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:54:31 [Zakim]
15:54:36 [florianr]
Zakim, I am ??P2
15:54:36 [Zakim]
+florianr; got it
15:54:59 [glazou]
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15:56:28 [Zakim]
15:56:29 [oyvind]
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15:56:36 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P0 is me
15:56:36 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
15:58:23 [smfr]
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15:59:40 [Zakim]
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16:00:17 [Zakim]
16:00:53 [Zakim]
16:00:54 [Zakim]
16:01:03 [arronei]
zakim, microsoft has me
16:01:05 [Zakim]
+arronei; got it
16:01:09 [JohnJansen]
JohnJansen has joined #css
16:01:15 [Zakim]
16:02:23 [tantek]
good morning
16:02:39 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.308.aaaa
16:02:40 [Zakim]
16:02:47 [bradk]
bradk has joined #css
16:02:56 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.275.aabb
16:03:02 [vhardy_]
vhardy_ has joined #css
16:03:04 [bradk]
Zakim, aabb is me
16:03:04 [Zakim]
+bradk; got it
16:03:35 [JohnJansen]
Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
16:03:35 [Zakim]
+JohnJansen; got it
16:03:44 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.832.aacc
16:03:58 [vhardy_]
Zakim, aacc is me
16:03:58 [Zakim]
+vhardy_; got it
16:04:07 [stearns]
Zakim, aaaa is krit
16:04:07 [Zakim]
+krit; got it
16:04:27 [plinss]
zakim, ?P62 is fantasai
16:04:27 [Zakim]
sorry, plinss, I do not recognize a party named '?P62'
16:04:39 [plinss]
zakim, P62 is fantasai
16:04:39 [Zakim]
sorry, plinss, I do not recognize a party named 'P62'
16:04:51 [plinss]
zakim, who is here?
16:04:51 [Zakim]
On the phone I see florianr, plinss, glazou, sylvaing, hober, smfr, stearns, [Microsoft], [Microsoft.a], antonp, krit, ??P62, bradk, vhardy_
16:04:53 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has JohnJansen
16:04:53 [Zakim]
On IRC I see vhardy_, bradk, JohnJansen, arronei, dstorey, antonp, oyvind, glazou, RRSAgent, Zakim, tantek, Ms2ger, ksweeney, florianr, drublic, SimonSapin, kennyluck, logbot,
16:04:53 [Zakim]
... paul___irish, ed, krijnh, Echoes, fantasai, stearns, shepazu, TabAtkins_, hober, Liam, isherman, kojiishi, gsnedders, danielfilho, CSSWG_LogBot, vhardy, sylvaing, plinss,
16:04:57 [Zakim]
... alexmog, shans, pjrm, Hixie, Bert, trackbot
16:05:24 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: fantasai
16:05:41 [fantasai]
Florian: Wanted to add new editors to CSS Device Adaptation
16:05:45 [florianr]
16:05:47 [nimbu]
nimbu has joined #css
16:06:10 [fantasai]
Vincent: We're looking internally to see if someone might be able to join as well
16:06:21 [fantasai]
plinss: Please take time to add agenda topics to Hamburg wiki
16:06:33 [fantasai]
plinss: And some of those there are vague; please add more detail
16:06:49 [fantasai]
plinss: One issue left on margin collapsing?
16:06:50 [smfr]
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16:06:56 [fantasai]
antonp: I'd like to work on other 2.1 issues than that one
16:07:06 [fantasai]
antonp: so let's postpone, and for next week I'll try to prepare some other ones
16:07:10 [fantasai]
plinss: Ok, ping me when it's ready
16:07:14 [alexmog_]
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16:07:38 [alexmog_]
zakim, microsoft has me
16:07:38 [Zakim]
+alexmog_; got it
16:07:45 [fantasai]
Florian: Current editor for CSS Device Adaptation is going on paternity leave, so we're proposing two new editors from Opera myself and ?
16:07:54 [Zakim]
+ +47.21.65.aadd
16:07:55 [Zakim]
16:08:04 [fantasai]
Florian: We also invite people from other vendors to join, help us move this forward
16:08:08 [florianr]
s/?/√ėyvind Stenhaug/
16:08:16 [dstorey]
zakim, ??P80 is me
16:08:16 [Zakim]
+dstorey; got it
16:08:20 [Zakim]
16:08:37 [fantasai]
Vincent: What's the status of this module?
16:08:51 [fantasai]
Florian: Some open issues, and some editorial work
16:08:57 [fantasai]
Florian: Don't think there is a public test suite
16:08:58 [howcome]
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16:09:07 [fantasai]
Sylvain: We have a partial implementation, might provide feedback soon
16:09:18 [fantasai]
Florian: Would be much appreciated
16:09:36 [fantasai]
Florian: Noticed you only implemented part of the spec, want to know if that's because you haven't done it yet or thought better to not implement it.
16:09:41 [fantasai]
Sylvain: Mostly we don't have it yet
16:10:03 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Add new editors from Opera to Device Adaptation
16:10:12 [stearns]
list intro:
16:10:13 [fantasai]
Topic: CSS Regions
16:10:19 [stearns]
ED section:
16:10:35 [fantasai]
stearns: Added new sections to Regions to handle auto-height regions
16:10:52 [fantasai]
stearns: We've been validating this in code in a WebKit branch, making sure what we have there is implementable
16:11:00 [fantasai]
stearns: would like people to take a look and give us some feedback
16:11:05 [fantasai]
stearns: that's all
16:11:33 [fantasai]
howcome: I went through it, and I find it hard to read/understand/comprehend that part
16:11:46 [fantasai]
howcome: It may be right, but I find it hard to review and relate to the regions spec
16:11:57 [fantasai]
howcome: when the #1 concern that I and others have raised is not addressed yet
16:12:07 [fantasai]
howcome: I would have preferred if that hurdle could be passed.
16:12:15 [fantasai]
howcome: Right now, it doesn't seem like this should be something to work on
16:12:31 [fantasai]
stearns: It's definitely something we're working o
16:12:35 [Zakim]
16:12:44 [fantasai]
stearns: what you do with the regions box is not related to how you size it
16:12:53 [fantasai]
stearns: we want the sizing algorithm independent of where the box comes from
16:13:04 [fantasai]
stearns: I agree we need to address box generation
16:13:05 [Zakim]
16:13:12 [fantasai]
stearns: don't know that that issue gates auto-sizing regions
16:13:17 [Katie]
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16:13:18 [glazou]
16:13:34 [ChrisL]
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16:13:38 [fantasai]
howcome: I agree they may be independent, but there's not much motivation to review the spec when this hurdle remains in the way
16:13:50 [sylvaing]
didn't we agree to address this as part of the template work in Paris?
16:13:53 [fantasai]
Vincent: We are working on page templates, syntax for generating regions
16:14:12 [fantasai]
Vincent: We're trying to address the big issues you and others have raised; auto-sizing was one of those issues
16:14:20 [fantasai]
Vincent: We're not ignoring the other issues
16:14:22 [Katie]
zakim, who's on the call?
16:14:22 [Zakim]
On the phone I see florianr, plinss, glazou, sylvaing, hober, smfr, stearns, [Microsoft], [Microsoft.a], antonp, krit, ??P62, bradk, vhardy_, +47.21.65.aadd, dstorey, ??P83,
16:14:25 [Zakim]
... [Microsoft.aa], TabAtkins
16:14:25 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has alexmog_
16:14:29 [Zakim]
16:14:36 [plinss]
ack glazou
16:14:40 [fantasai]
glazou: I reviewed document with a fresh eye
16:14:45 [fantasai]
glazou: I did not find it hard to read or understand
16:14:51 [fantasai]
glazou: I found it pretty easy to read and understand
16:14:59 [fantasai]
glazou: The thing I originally missed, and discovered rereading it
16:15:09 [fantasai]
glazou: Is that generating boxes is completely independent of notion of regions
16:15:16 [Katie]
zakim, [Microsoft.a] is Katie
16:15:16 [Zakim]
+Katie; got it
16:15:18 [fantasai]
glazou: Explanation in Section 7 is needed to explain how regions work
16:15:26 [fantasai]
glazou: could be independent of generation of boxes
16:15:31 [fantasai]
glazou: We might need for other things in CSS
16:15:40 [fantasai]
glazou: Without that, document is not understandable as a whole
16:15:44 [glazou]
Zakim, ack me
16:15:44 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
16:16:14 [arno]
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16:16:29 [fantasai]
antonp: I found it hard to get on the first read through. What could help is if someone maybe posts a summary of what's going on in Section 7, to orient the reader a bit?
16:17:11 [Zakim]
16:17:44 [Zakim]
16:18:00 [fantasai]
stearns: maybe I'll post an outline of the section to the list
16:18:20 [fantasai]
bradk: I thought Section 7 was easy to understand, esp with examples
16:18:31 [fantasai]
bradk: What was hard for me, doesn't have an exact definition of "fragment"
16:18:36 [fantasai]
bradk: There's no terminology section
16:18:45 [fantasai]
bradk: Afraid it might mean different things in different parts of the document
16:18:53 [fantasai]
Vincent: Referencing CSS3 Fragmentation Spec
16:19:06 [fantasai]
stearns: I think I have a task to go through the document and make sure we have all relevant spec links
16:19:13 [fantasai]
stearns: We should have more links to css3-break
16:19:32 [fantasai]
bradk: Fragmentation spec talks about portions that occur between breaking opportunities, right?
16:19:48 [fantasai]
bradk: Seemed like in some parts it meant something different, like portion of element that's within the region box or something like that
16:20:02 [fantasai]
bradk: Want to make sure it's consistent
16:20:22 [fantasai]
Vincent: If you have any places you notice, point us at them
16:21:02 [sylvaing]
16:21:14 [glazou]
sylvaing: and nothing related to animations and margin-collapsing ?-)
16:21:19 [fantasai]
Topic: Animaton-delay
16:21:35 [Zakim]
- +47.21.65.aadd
16:21:39 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Made a fix to clarify ...
16:21:46 [fantasai]
sylvaing: But case that's not covered -- negative animation delays
16:21:59 [glazou]
Zakim, mute me
16:21:59 [Zakim]
glazou should now be muted
16:22:08 [fantasai]
sylvaing: If you have a 2s animation and you have a -1s delay, your animation starts in the middle
16:22:13 [glazou]
Zakim, unmute me
16:22:13 [Zakim]
glazou should no longer be muted
16:22:15 [fantasai]
sylvaing: but if you have -5s animation, what does it mean?
16:22:43 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Implementations agree that if you have repetition of 1, and you have delay greater than duration, nothing happens
16:23:12 [fantasai]
sylvaing: However if you have more, and you ask for a delay, then you might skip repetitions
16:23:49 [fantasai]
Florian: Looks like you didn't test Opera. The behavior we have in Opera, we don't like it
16:24:20 [fantasai]
smfr: Need to define what happens if fill mode is greater than duration
16:24:31 [fantasai]
smfr: do you jump to last keyrame even though you didn't run the animation?
16:25:10 [fantasai]
smfr: For all cases where the animation either never runs or completes instantaneously, we need to decide what fill-mode does
16:25:11 [vhardy_]
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16:25:14 [fantasai]
smfr: Also define whether event fires
16:25:21 [oyvind]
I assume that should say "if you have fill mode and delay is greater than duration"
16:26:05 [oyvind]
or rather "if you have fill mode and negative delay of greater magnitude than duration"
16:26:26 [fantasai]
plinss: Any objections?
16:26:32 [smfr]
fantasai: i don't think it did
16:26:34 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Accept Sylvain's proposal
16:26:43 [fantasai]
smfr, :/
16:26:55 [fantasai]
Topic: Values and Units
16:26:58 [TabAtkins_]
ScribeNick: tantek
16:27:08 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: fantasai
16:27:14 [tantek]
16:27:25 [glazou]
16:27:26 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: Awhile back, resolved to find minimum required ranges
16:27:53 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: we asked arron for those numbers, but he didn't get back to us for awhile, so we made some numbers up
16:28:04 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: yesterday he suggested 2^27-1 for all numeric types
16:28:14 [glazou]
is there a URL for the current topic ?
16:28:19 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: He said it doesn't actually match minimums in IE in all places, but thinks it's reasonable
16:28:32 [fantasai]
Florian: Opera used to have extremely random sizes
16:28:47 [Ms2ger]
16:28:49 [Ms2ger]
glazou, ^
16:29:08 [fantasai]
Florian: We recently changed to use 32-bit, but considering moving to 24-bit representation
16:29:12 [fantasai]
Florian: So we might go back low
16:29:16 [ChrisL]
2^24 -1 then?
16:29:20 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: That still seems like a large limit
16:29:21 [glazou]
thanks Ms2ger
16:29:32 [gsnedders]
ChrisL: Yeah
16:29:34 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: Should be more than needed for anything except z-index
16:30:09 [fantasai]
fantasai: The goal here is to be conservative, so low numbers should be fine
16:30:10 [glazou]
and we may need something expressing MAX_RANGE_VALUE
16:30:31 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: Ok, we'll use 2^24-1; if anyone has another concern bring it up within the week
16:30:44 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: Another issue is repetitions of component values.
16:30:50 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: We picked 30
16:31:03 [fantasai]
Florian: We used to have a limit of 32, but now limited only by memory
16:31:07 [fantasai]
Florian: So we're fine either way
16:31:14 [fantasai]
sylvaing: ???
16:31:16 [bradk]
Wasn't there some talk about making z-index into a float?
16:31:28 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: Any time the grammar has a repetition, e.g. + or *, how many are required
16:31:35 [glazou]
chained lists in memory are so hard to implement ? ;-)
16:31:39 [fantasai]
Florian: I believe IE was limited to 20 in some cases
16:31:50 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: calc(), I think
16:31:57 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: Also have a 30-term min on calc
16:32:19 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: So, we'll put this in, and people can object if it's too high; we'll lower it if necessary
16:32:27 [Zakim]
16:32:31 [glazou]
glazou: good strategy
16:32:34 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: We can even do that in CR, since it won't make anyone invalid that was valid before
16:33:02 [krit]
krit has joined #css
16:33:12 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: 2^24-1 minimum for numeric types, 30-component minimum for repetitions, 30-component minimum for calc(), adjust lower if necessary later
16:33:21 [fantasai]
glazou: Should that be tested?
16:33:33 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: Yes, the whole point is to allow testing
16:34:30 [fantasai]
talk about testing this
16:34:42 [smfr]
16:34:51 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: nother issue
16:34:59 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: Kenny brought up the really fun situation...
16:35:15 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: Right now, when we have attr(), we do early syntax checking if the type and the fallback are appropriate for the place
16:35:22 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: I can give an example, where this is still confusing
16:35:27 [TabAtkins_]
box-shadow: attr(size px, inset) 5px 10px blue;
16:35:47 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: So, in this, whether you interpret the attr() as a pixel size or the 'inset' keyword, but you get completely different meanings out of the two
16:36:05 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: If you have multiple attrs(), you have to do combinatorial checking of possible values
16:36:18 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: We went and restricted it to say that if attr() is the sole value of the property, you can do whatever you want
16:36:43 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: But if you use it as a component value, the fallback has to be the same type as the declared attr type
16:37:04 [fantasai]
fantasai: I'd like to have dbaron check on this before we close
16:37:13 [plinss]
ack smfr
16:37:17 [fantasai]
smfr: Going back to ... sometime ago I proposed some text about roundtripping
16:37:41 [fantasai]
smfr: If you supply value that's too large, it gets truncated, you write it back out it shoudl roundtrip
16:37:52 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: Could add some specific requirements if that's needed
16:37:58 [fantasai]
smfr: ... z-index ...
16:38:10 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: Requirement is that you clamp to the nearest supported value
16:38:18 [fantasai]
smfr: So it clamps and then roundtrips, ok that's fine
16:38:37 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: I don't think we have anything else right now
16:38:47 [fantasai]
fantasai: Stay tuned, we'll have lots of issues to resolve next week!
16:38:52 [fantasai]
Topic: Baselines of Flexbox
16:38:59 [Zakim]
16:39:04 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: The issue was a) we didn't define the baseline of a flexbox
16:39:17 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: The possibilities are either baselin of first-child, or somehow do what tables do (don't remember what they do)
16:39:36 [fantasai]
alexmog_: We came to a conclusion for our implementation
16:39:42 [PhilCupp]
PhilCupp has joined #css
16:39:43 [fantasai]
alexmog_: Baseline of first child is baseline of flexbox
16:39:48 [fantasai]
alexmog_: But we didn't have per-item alignment
16:39:53 [fantasai]
alexmog_: I think what we had then is still ok
16:40:20 [fantasai]
alexmog_: If there are items with baseline-alignment sharing baseline, reasonable for that to be baseline of flexbox. Otherwise take first one
16:41:00 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Baseline of flexbox is baseline of baseline-aligned boxes if any, otherwise take first child
16:41:21 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: Second part is, how do you determine baseline of the first child
16:41:30 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: Proposal is use baseline of first child's display type
16:42:09 [fantasai]
Florian: We'd prefer not to do that, becasue if we consider things in terms of display-inside, display-outside, your display-outside would be something like flexbox-item, so you can't distinguish inline-block and block
16:42:52 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: So in practice, we could use the 2.1 conversion table for this
16:43:08 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: I don't care much either way, but several implementers said using display type makes sense to them
16:44:09 [TabAtkins_]
16:44:30 [fantasai]
fantasai: It's implementable, beacuse we can always look up the computed style, but that doesn't necessarily mean it makes sense
16:45:15 [fantasai]
alexmog_: I think flexbox child would have it's display type, and just have an internal display-outside of flexbox-item
16:45:47 [fantasai]
Florian: In that case, you shouldn't be using display-outside of inline/block to determine different alignments
16:45:55 [fantasai]
alexmog_: That's what I'm saying, inline-block and block should behave the same
16:46:14 [fantasai]
alexmog_: Related issue is that suppose you have flexbox with one item, and that's inline-block or block or table with table cell
16:46:23 [fantasai]
alexmog_: each with different definition of baseline
16:46:38 [fantasai]
alexmog_: no way to make us actually ignore that internal baseline entirely and say that I want the baseline of that box be the bottom of the box
16:46:42 [fantasai]
alexmog_: Or can i?
16:47:07 [fantasai]
fantasai: I think there were some proposals for that. Might be added to Line Layout module
16:47:48 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: Think we can defer that to later
16:48:55 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Use the table for converting display types to block-level types to determine baselines; effectively this is using display-inside
16:49:38 [fantasai]
glazou: Announce that Backgrounds and Borders / Image Values moved to CR
16:49:55 [fantasai]
glazou: missing announcements
16:50:11 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: yeah, fantasai and I were working all day on css3-values
16:50:17 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: will get to that
16:50:18 [TabAtkins_]
16:50:36 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: I think there are less than 6 weeks of work left on Flexbox, so propose to move to LC
16:50:44 [fantasai]
fantasai: no
16:50:52 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: If there are other issues to bring up, appreciate that happening now
16:51:23 [ChrisL]
that is being ready in 6 weeks
16:51:47 [ChrisL]
and there should be no open issues, so its a stable document for reviewers
16:52:28 [fantasai]
fantasai: ...
16:52:58 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: I don't think there are any major issues left.
16:53:32 [fantasai]
ChrisL: If you think you have only one week of work left, then come back in a week and ask for Last Call
16:53:41 [fantasai]
alexmog_: I think we're done, we don't have anything else
16:53:54 [ChrisL]
I agree with fantasai that if there are pending edits, do them first before going to last call
16:54:02 [fantasai]
fantasai: I disagree, and I would like to see the alignment issues addressed before LC
16:54:23 [fantasai]
plinss: I agree with fantasai [...]
16:54:35 [fantasai]
plinss: Major issues / minor issues, whatever.
16:55:08 [fantasai]
plinss: Want to present things for people to review.
16:55:21 [ChrisL]
so defer that issue as out of scope
16:56:22 [sylvaing]
can we just accept/postpone LC?
16:57:02 [fantasai]
16:57:15 [fantasai]
Florian: zero bugs is hard to get to
16:57:25 [fantasai]
Florian: But you shouldn't go to LC with bugs that you aren't willing to defer to next level
16:58:07 [fantasai]
fantasai: If you are making significant changes between LC and CR, you need to do another LC. You're not gaining anything there.
16:58:08 [glazou]
let's collapse the margins of the flex box spec first
16:58:23 [Zakim]
16:58:28 [stearns]
it's not LC, it's -w3c-LC
16:58:29 [fantasai]
Anton: If you've got a bunch of pending edits you haven't made, then it's not really a Last Call, it's another Working Draft
16:59:40 [Zakim]
16:59:42 [fantasai]
glazou: Going to LC is decision of the WG. Decisions of the WG is made base don review of the members. Asking for review before transition request
16:59:45 [fantasai]
is fair
17:00:09 [fantasai]
sylvaing: maybe we should talk about actual issues?
17:00:42 [fantasai]
florian: have a small question, fantasai has said several times that shouldn't go to LC until dbaron reviews.
17:00:48 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: AFAIK dbaron is deferring to dholbert
17:01:37 [fantasai]
plinss: We don't have consensus to go to LC. So work on the issues, and we'll ...
17:01:54 [fantasai]
come back to it later
17:02:25 [fantasai]
sylvaing: There's some issues that require WG discussion, e.g. renaming everything and going to LC are incompatible
17:02:28 [Zakim]
17:02:30 [Zakim]
17:02:34 [fantasai]
antonp: What do I need to review here?
17:02:55 [fantasai]
antonp: Is bugzilla + current editor's draft what's needed to review this thing?
17:03:17 [fantasai]
plinss: Everyone please review
17:03:21 [Zakim]
17:03:27 [Zakim]
17:03:28 [fantasai]
Meeting closed.
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17:09:02 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, antonp, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
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Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
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Attendees were florianr, plinss, glazou, sylvaing, hober, smfr, stearns, arronei, antonp, +1.415.308.aaaa, +1.650.275.aabb, bradk, JohnJansen, +1.415.832.aacc, vhardy_, krit,
17:09:03 [Zakim]
... alexmog_, +47.21.65.aadd, dstorey, [Microsoft], TabAtkins, ChrisL, Katie
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TabAtkins: Announcements posted. Edit if you have anything to add.
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