IRC log of ua on 2012-04-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:15:41 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/12-ua-irc
16:15:43 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:15:43 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
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Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
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ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 45 minutes
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Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:15:46 [trackbot]
Date: 12 April 2012
16:15:57 [JAllan]
rrsagent, set logs public
16:16:10 [JAllan]
chair: KellyFord, JimAllan
16:55:51 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
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+[Microsoft]
16:56:04 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
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+Jim_Allan
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Topic: ***closing Guideline 1
17:01:14 [JAllan]
Agenda+ 1.2.1 & 1.2.2 Action-712 Simon
17:01:16 [JAllan]
Agenda+ 1.3.2 editors note (not assigned to anyone) Kim?
17:01:17 [JAllan]
Agenda+ 1.3.3, 1.5.1 needs decision on whether it is done or not (no
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action items)
17:01:20 [JAllan]
Agenda+ 1.7 Action-657 Jeanne (adding Wayne's final proposal ... which
17:01:22 [JAllan]
one, we edited it)
17:01:22 [trackbot]
Sorry, bad ACTION syntax
17:01:23 [JAllan]
Agenda+ 1.8 Action-631 Jeanne (add new wording) Action-662 Jeanne (add
17:01:25 [JAllan]
revised wording)
17:01:26 [JAllan]
Agenda+ 1.10.2 Action-639 Jan (revise for proposal)
17:01:28 [JAllan]
Agenda+ 1.11.1 & 1.11.2 Action-467 Jim (revise for proposal)
17:01:39 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:01:44 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
17:01:47 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [Microsoft], Jim_Allan, Jeanne
17:01:55 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jeanne, Zakim, RRSAgent, JAllan, trackbot
17:02:33 [jeanne]
agenda?
17:02:34 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda?
17:02:53 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
17:02:55 [Zakim]
1. 1.2.1 & 1.2.2 Action-712 Simon [from JAllan]
17:02:58 [Zakim]
2. 1.3.2 editors note (not assigned to anyone) Kim? [from JAllan]
17:02:59 [Zakim]
3. 1.3.3, 1.5.1 needs decision on whether it is done or not (no [from JAllan]
17:03:01 [Zakim]
4. 1.7 Action-657 Jeanne (adding Wayne's final proposal ... which [from JAllan]
17:03:02 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
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5. 1.8 Action-631 Jeanne (add new wording) Action-662 Jeanne (add [from JAllan]
17:03:06 [Zakim]
6. 1.10.2 Action-639 Jan (revise for proposal) [from JAllan]
17:03:07 [Zakim]
7. 1.11.1 & 1.11.2 Action-467 Jim (revise for proposal) [from JAllan]
17:03:36 [Jan]
zakim, code?
17:03:36 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan
17:04:11 [Zakim]
+??P6
17:04:32 [Jan]
zakim, ??P6 is really Jan
17:04:32 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
17:05:55 [kford]
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+Kim_Patch
17:10:52 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
17:10:52 [JAllan]
Kudos to ATAG for it's last Call!
17:11:25 [JAllan]
Kim did a talk yesterday about keyboard shortcuts and voice navigation
17:11:47 [Zakim]
+??P14
17:11:54 [sharper]
zakim, ??P14 is sharper
17:11:54 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
17:14:12 [JAllan]
regrets: greg
17:17:45 [KimPatch]
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zakim, open item 1
17:17:59 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "1.2.1 & 1.2.2 Action-712 Simon" taken up [from JAllan]
17:19:27 [JAllan]
beginning of thread: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0008.html
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discussion of changed wording and levels
17:21:00 [JAllan]
Proposal: Delete 1.2.1 & 1.2.2
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Add:
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1.2.X Provide Available Information: If missing or empty alternative
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content or associations are recognized, the user agent will notify the
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user and provide a mechanism to relate all available metadata to the
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user upon request.
17:22:20 [JAllan]
merge the intents and examples from 1.2.1, 1.2.2
17:23:15 [JAllan]
jr: word "associations", label for form has association. but there are others. associations is not precise enough
17:23:40 [JAllan]
... metadata is too general
17:24:03 [JAllan]
sh: not sure how to do it
17:24:34 [JAllan]
jr: see appendix on Accessibility information, could substitute for meta information.
17:24:58 [JAllan]
... would help scope the information
17:25:49 [JAllan]
jr: would replace associations and metadata with 'accessibility information'
17:26:22 [JAllan]
jr: does UAAG want to use the relative accessibility based on WCAG.
17:27:27 [JAllan]
js: depends on the use case. this SC would be useful with photo sites. if we just to a11y information, we would eliminate all of the photo metadata available
17:27:55 [JAllan]
... reason I liked the 'metadata' term
17:28:06 [JAllan]
jr: another usecase
17:28:50 [JAllan]
... the bigger case is the relationships, form field has visual relation ship but not in code. they need more help discovering those.
17:29:10 [JAllan]
js: that is AI (it is difficult)
17:29:35 [JAllan]
jr: interpage links need to be remediated.
17:30:00 [JAllan]
js: don't want to do this a A. its too hard
17:30:47 [JAllan]
js: simons proposal...don't try to repair, just give me the metadata the user will make some sense out of it.
17:31:01 [JAllan]
kf: how do you cap that.
17:31:43 [JAllan]
... images will have resolution, time, date, geolocation, etc. dozens more. how do we scope it.
17:32:13 [JAllan]
sh: it is useful information, but may be overwhelming, perhaps terse and verbose setting
17:32:24 [JAllan]
kf: what does wcag require.
17:32:53 [JAllan]
ja: alt and longdesc
17:33:19 [JAllan]
kf: how much of the photo image info is retained when converted.
17:33:43 [JAllan]
js: UA provides what it has. and provides it on request
17:34:46 [JAllan]
ja: do UAs already do this?
17:36:12 [JAllan]
sh: the act of displaying the image, must process it and have access to the metadata
17:36:54 [JAllan]
jr: but then there is surfacing it, need UI, structure data.
17:37:12 [JAllan]
sh: yes its not critical, but it is on user request only
17:37:46 [JAllan]
... disagree, it is critical to get as much info as necessary
17:39:28 [JAllan]
ja: reviews discussion
17:39:40 [jeanne]
q+ to propose that "associations" become "accessibility information"
17:39:58 [JAllan]
sh: perhaps 2 sc, one for a11y info level A, and meta info at AA
17:40:26 [JAllan]
js: but a11y info is not there, that's the point.
17:41:12 [JAllan]
js: has proposal
17:41:26 [jeanne]
1.2.X Provide Available Information: If missing or empty alternative content or accessibility information are recognized, the user agent will notify the user and provide a mechanism to relate all available metadata to the user upon request.
17:42:13 [jeanne]
1.2.X Provide Available Information: If missing or empty accessibility information is recognized, the user agent will notify the user and provide a mechanism to relate all available metadata to the user upon request.
17:42:35 [JAllan]
kf: +1
17:42:39 [JAllan]
kim: +1
17:43:41 [JAllan]
jr: empty?? so if an ignored image, the user can still get some info
17:44:44 [JAllan]
sh: what if site is stupid and pastes in imagesorce as alt, then alt is not missing or empty. then UA doesn't have to do anything.
17:45:22 [JAllan]
jr: missing, empty, or improper
17:45:48 [JAllan]
js: how to define improper
17:46:20 [JAllan]
sh: what about eliminate missing or empty, just give metadata
17:47:03 [JAllan]
jr: +1, but bring it back to human language metadata, or something to scope it.
17:47:36 [JAllan]
js: need to bind it to certain element, else its everything on the page.
17:47:53 [JAllan]
sh: also on the focused element
17:48:26 [Jan]
jr: non-text element well defined by WCAG
17:49:11 [JAllan]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-IMPLEMENTING-ATAG20-20120410/#def-Accessibility-Information
17:49:15 [JAllan]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-IMPLEMENTING-ATAG20-20120410/#prompting-types
17:49:57 [JAllan]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0025.html
17:50:26 [JAllan]
scribe: jallan
17:51:01 [Jan]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-ATAG20-20120410/Overview.html#sc_b233
17:51:32 [JAllan]
js: would this apply to keyboard shortcuts
17:52:11 [JAllan]
jr: explains ATAG b233
17:53:12 [JAllan]
this could be a resource for 1.2.x
17:54:30 [JAllan]
sh: what about adding poorly repaired alternative
17:55:42 [JAllan]
js: we don't want repair, we want alternatives
17:56:30 [JAllan]
jr: UA of future could ocr image, use databased images (OBI project from DIAGAM)
17:57:55 [JAllan]
jr: keep 121 and 122, because they can be turned off, and add simons for additional help
17:58:26 [JAllan]
... user access metadata to discover.
17:58:52 [JAllan]
js: don't like, we spent lots of time about not repairing information.
17:59:21 [JAllan]
kf: without repair, how much effort will users go to to get information
17:59:58 [JAllan]
sh: useful repair is so far out, thinks metadata is more important.
18:00:25 [JAllan]
js: we wanted to eliminate stupid repair.
18:00:40 [JAllan]
... good with removing 121 and 122.
18:01:14 [JAllan]
jr: then we must eliminate totally the repair. the entire point is the 'whether or not'.
18:02:18 [JAllan]
js: how to reword to eliminate an sc.
18:02:53 [JAllan]
jr: ATAG has concept...don't repair unless special knowledge, then kick to AT to make obvious repair.
18:03:10 [JAllan]
... that special knowledge is the metadata.
18:03:41 [JAllan]
js: filename is matadata, but we want to eliminate it.
18:04:45 [JAllan]
sh: support wrapping in 1.2.3 repair association. as a AAA
18:05:27 [JAllan]
... put 121 122 and 123 in to 1 sc. and the Metadata (new one is A).
18:05:43 [JAllan]
... other (conflated one) is AAA
18:06:49 [jeanne]
action-712 assign to Jan
18:07:00 [jeanne]
zakim, assign action-712 to Jan
18:07:00 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'assign action-712 to Jan', jeanne
18:07:35 [JAllan]
zakim, close item 1
18:07:35 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, JAllan
18:07:51 [JAllan]
zakim, q?
18:07:51 [Zakim]
I see jeanne on the speaker queue
18:07:57 [JAllan]
ack jeanne
18:07:57 [Zakim]
jeanne, you wanted to propose that "associations" become "accessibility information"
18:08:06 [JAllan]
zakim, close item 1
18:08:06 [Zakim]
agendum 1, 1.2.1 & 1.2.2 Action-712 Simon, closed
18:08:07 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:08:07 [Zakim]
2. 1.3.2 editors note (not assigned to anyone) Kim? [from JAllan]
18:10:04 [jeanne]
Resolved: Remove editor's note from 1.3.2
18:10:10 [JAllan]
zakim, close item 2
18:10:10 [Zakim]
agendum 2, 1.3.2 editors note (not assigned to anyone) Kim?, closed
18:10:11 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:10:11 [Zakim]
3. 1.3.3, 1.5.1 needs decision on whether it is done or not (no [from JAllan]
18:10:35 [JAllan]
zakim, open next
18:10:35 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "1.3.3, 1.5.1 needs decision on whether it is done or not (no" taken up [from JAllan]
18:11:35 [JAllan]
jr: seems like we talked about this recently
18:12:58 [JAllan]
... what is this adding to 1.3.1
18:14:44 [JAllan]
kim: intents are very different
18:15:05 [JAllan]
ja: 131 does not cover scripted elements.
18:15:32 [JAllan]
sh: these are all about visually perceiveable. what about auditory highlighting?
18:18:19 [JAllan]
kim: need to add 'visual highlighting' to 132
18:19:02 [JAllan]
jr: general highlighting is covered in 131
18:19:32 [JAllan]
... we could get prescriptive and add auditory
18:19:47 [JAllan]
ja: what about haptic
18:20:15 [JAllan]
kp: do we have a parallel for what the audio highlighting should be?
18:20:50 [JAllan]
js: perhaps add to UAAG-Next!
18:21:05 [JAllan]
kim: kelly would this be useful
18:21:15 [JAllan]
kf: not sure
18:22:50 [JAllan]
sh: have audio style bold, italic (different audio, voices) what about links selections, etc
18:23:12 [JAllan]
kp: what is the audio equivelent
18:24:32 [jeanne]
How about "If the user agent uses visual, "
18:26:05 [JAllan]
issue: if the user agent has an audio or tactile or xxx display then provide the following highlighting...related to 1.3.1,2,3
18:26:05 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-91 - If the user agent has an audio or tactile or xxx display then provide the following highlighting...related to 1.3.1,2,3 ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/91/edit .
18:28:05 [JAllan]
jr: this is a disconnect between 131 c and 133 a
18:28:36 [JAllan]
... what if we remove 133a and let it focus on scripted input.
18:28:42 [JAllan]
kp: +1
18:28:48 [JAllan]
ja: +1
18:30:19 [JAllan]
jr: should 131 c be enabled input elements
18:33:20 [JAllan]
action: kim to rewrite 133 to eliminate a) and make b the focus of it be b. need some rewording on the (e.g. ) perhaps eliminate.
18:33:20 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-723 - Rewrite 133 to eliminate a) and make b the focus of it be b. need some rewording on the (e.g. ) perhaps eliminate. [on Kimberly Patch - due 2012-04-19].
18:34:19 [JAllan]
jr: every element on a page could have an id, don't want to highlight everything
18:34:30 [JAllan]
ja: javascript blackhole
18:35:56 [Zakim]
-Jan
18:36:31 [JAllan]
ja: how is this related to tabindex=_1
18:37:37 [JAllan]
the onclick or onkeypress are going away.
18:40:35 [JAllan]
ja: should 133 be eliminated. because scripting is becomming more abstract, and only special case of onClick and onKeyPress
18:41:27 [Zakim]
-sharper
18:41:30 [Zakim]
-Kim_Patch
18:41:31 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
18:41:33 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
18:41:37 [Zakim]
-Jim_Allan
18:41:38 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:41:38 [Zakim]
Attendees were [Microsoft], Jim_Allan, Jeanne, Jan, Kim_Patch, sharper
19:24:38 [JAllan]
s/x=_1/x=-1
19:24:46 [JAllan]
rrsagent make minutes
19:24:55 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:24:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/12-ua-minutes.html JAllan
19:25:48 [JAllan]
zakim, [Microsoft] is really KellyFord
19:25:48 [Zakim]
sorry, JAllan, I do not recognize a party named '[Microsoft]'
19:26:04 [JAllan]
zakim, please part
19:26:04 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:26:11 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:26:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/12-ua-minutes.html JAllan
19:26:24 [JAllan]
rrsagent, please part
19:26:24 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/12-ua-actions.rdf :
19:26:24 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: kim to rewrite 133 to eliminate a) and make b the focus of it be b. need some rewording on the (e.g. ) perhaps eliminate. [1]
19:26:24 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/12-ua-irc#T18-33-20