16:15:41 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:15:41 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/12-ua-irc
16:15:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:15:43 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ua
16:15:45 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:15:45 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 45 minutes
16:15:46 <trackbot> Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:15:46 <trackbot> Date: 12 April 2012
16:15:57 <JAllan> rrsagent, set logs public
16:16:10 <JAllan> chair: KellyFord, JimAllan
16:55:51 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:55:57 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:56:04 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #ua
16:59:44 <Zakim> +Jim_Allan
17:01:13 <JAllan> Topic: ***closing Guideline 1
17:01:14 <JAllan> Agenda+ 1.2.1 & 1.2.2  Action-712 Simon
17:01:16 <JAllan> Agenda+ 1.3.2 editors note (not assigned to anyone) Kim?
17:01:17 <JAllan> Agenda+ 1.3.3, 1.5.1  needs decision on whether it is done or not (no
17:01:19 <JAllan> action items)
17:01:20 <JAllan> Agenda+ 1.7 Action-657 Jeanne (adding Wayne's final proposal ... which
17:01:22 <JAllan> one, we edited it)
17:01:22 <trackbot> Sorry, bad ACTION syntax
17:01:23 <JAllan> Agenda+ 1.8 Action-631 Jeanne (add new wording) Action-662 Jeanne (add
17:01:25 <JAllan> revised wording)
17:01:26 <JAllan> Agenda+ 1.10.2 Action-639 Jan (revise for proposal)
17:01:28 <JAllan> Agenda+ 1.11.1 & 1.11.2 Action-467 Jim (revise for proposal)
17:01:39 <Zakim> +Jeanne
17:01:44 <jeanne> zakim, who is here?
17:01:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Microsoft], Jim_Allan, Jeanne
17:01:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see jeanne, Zakim, RRSAgent, JAllan, trackbot
17:02:33 <jeanne> agenda?
17:02:34 <JAllan> zakim, agenda?
17:02:53 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
17:02:55 <Zakim> 1. 1.2.1 & 1.2.2  Action-712 Simon [from JAllan]
17:02:58 <Zakim> 2. 1.3.2 editors note (not assigned to anyone) Kim? [from JAllan]
17:02:59 <Zakim> 3. 1.3.3, 1.5.1  needs decision on whether it is done or not (no [from JAllan]
17:03:01 <Zakim> 4. 1.7 Action-657 Jeanne (adding Wayne's final proposal ... which [from JAllan]
17:03:02 <Jan> Jan has joined #ua
17:03:03 <Zakim> 5. 1.8 Action-631 Jeanne (add new wording) Action-662 Jeanne (add [from JAllan]
17:03:06 <Zakim> 6. 1.10.2 Action-639 Jan (revise for proposal) [from JAllan]
17:03:07 <Zakim> 7. 1.11.1 & 1.11.2 Action-467 Jim (revise for proposal) [from JAllan]
17:03:36 <Jan> zakim, code?
17:03:36 <Zakim> the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan
17:04:11 <Zakim> +??P6
17:04:32 <Jan> zakim, ??P6 is really Jan
17:04:32 <Zakim> +Jan; got it
17:05:55 <kford> kford has joined #ua
17:10:09 <Zakim> +Kim_Patch
17:10:52 <sharper> sharper has joined #ua
17:10:52 <JAllan> Kudos to ATAG for it's last Call!
17:11:25 <JAllan> Kim did a talk yesterday about keyboard shortcuts and voice navigation
17:11:47 <Zakim> +??P14
17:11:54 <sharper> zakim, ??P14 is sharper
17:11:54 <Zakim> +sharper; got it
17:14:12 <JAllan> regrets: greg
17:17:45 <KimPatch> KimPatch has joined #ua
17:17:59 <JAllan> zakim, open item 1
17:17:59 <Zakim> agendum 1. "1.2.1 & 1.2.2  Action-712 Simon" taken up [from JAllan]
17:19:27 <JAllan> beginning of thread: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0008.html
17:20:10 <JAllan> discussion of changed wording and levels
17:21:00 <JAllan> Proposal: Delete 1.2.1 & 1.2.2
17:21:02 <JAllan> Add:
17:21:03 <JAllan> 1.2.X Provide Available Information: If missing or empty alternative
17:21:05 <JAllan> content or associations are recognized, the user agent will notify the
17:21:06 <JAllan> user and provide a mechanism to relate all available metadata to the
17:21:08 <JAllan> user upon request. 
17:22:20 <JAllan> merge the intents and examples from 1.2.1, 1.2.2
17:23:15 <JAllan> jr: word "associations", label for form has association. but there are others. associations is not precise enough
17:23:40 <JAllan> ... metadata is too general 
17:24:03 <JAllan> sh: not sure how to do it
17:24:34 <JAllan> jr: see appendix on Accessibility information, could substitute for meta information.
17:24:58 <JAllan> ... would help scope the information
17:25:49 <JAllan> jr: would replace associations and metadata with 'accessibility information'
17:26:22 <JAllan> jr: does UAAG want to use the relative accessibility based on WCAG.
17:27:27 <JAllan> js: depends on the use case. this SC would be useful with photo sites. if we just to a11y information, we would eliminate all of the photo metadata available
17:27:55 <JAllan> ... reason I liked the 'metadata' term
17:28:06 <JAllan> jr: another usecase
17:28:50 <JAllan> ... the bigger case is the relationships, form field has visual relation ship but not in code. they need more help discovering those.
17:29:10 <JAllan> js: that is AI (it is difficult)
17:29:35 <JAllan> jr: interpage links  need to be remediated. 
17:30:00 <JAllan> js: don't want to do this a A. its too hard
17:30:47 <JAllan> js: simons proposal...don't try to repair, just give me the metadata the user will make some sense out of it.
17:31:01 <JAllan> kf: how do you cap that.
17:31:43 <JAllan> ... images will have resolution, time, date, geolocation, etc. dozens more. how do we scope it.
17:32:13 <JAllan> sh: it is useful information, but may be overwhelming, perhaps terse and verbose setting
17:32:24 <JAllan> kf: what does wcag require.
17:32:53 <JAllan> ja: alt and longdesc
17:33:19 <JAllan> kf: how much of the photo image info is retained when converted.
17:33:43 <JAllan> js: UA provides what it has. and provides it on request
17:34:46 <JAllan> ja: do UAs already do this?
17:36:12 <JAllan> sh: the act of displaying the image, must process it and have access to the metadata
17:36:54 <JAllan> jr: but then there is surfacing it, need UI, structure data.
17:37:12 <JAllan> sh: yes its not critical, but it is on user request only
17:37:46 <JAllan> ... disagree, it is critical to get as much info as necessary
17:39:28 <JAllan> ja: reviews discussion
17:39:40 <jeanne> q+ to propose that "associations" become "accessibility information"
17:39:58 <JAllan> sh: perhaps 2 sc, one for a11y info level A, and meta info at AA
17:40:26 <JAllan> js: but a11y info is not there, that's the point.
17:41:12 <JAllan> js: has proposal
17:41:26 <jeanne>  1.2.X Provide Available Information: If missing or empty alternative content or accessibility information are recognized, the user agent will notify the user and provide a mechanism to relate all available metadata to the user upon request. 
17:42:13 <jeanne> 1.2.X Provide Available Information: If missing or empty accessibility information is recognized, the user agent will notify the user and provide a mechanism to relate all available metadata to the user upon request. 
17:42:35 <JAllan> kf: +1
17:42:39 <JAllan> kim: +1
17:43:41 <JAllan> jr: empty?? so if an ignored image, the user can still get some info
17:44:44 <JAllan> sh: what if site is stupid and pastes in imagesorce as alt, then alt is not missing or empty. then UA doesn't have to do anything.
17:45:22 <JAllan> jr: missing, empty, or improper
17:45:48 <JAllan> js: how to define improper
17:46:20 <JAllan> sh: what about eliminate missing or empty, just give metadata
17:47:03 <JAllan> jr: +1, but bring it back to human language metadata, or something to scope it.
17:47:36 <JAllan> js: need to bind it to certain element, else its everything on the page.
17:47:53 <JAllan> sh: also on the focused element
17:48:26 <Jan> jr: non-text element well defined by WCAG
17:49:11 <JAllan> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-IMPLEMENTING-ATAG20-20120410/#def-Accessibility-Information
17:49:15 <JAllan> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-IMPLEMENTING-ATAG20-20120410/#prompting-types
17:49:57 <JAllan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0025.html
17:50:26 <JAllan> scribe: jallan
17:51:01 <Jan> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-ATAG20-20120410/Overview.html#sc_b233
17:51:32 <JAllan> js: would this apply to keyboard shortcuts
17:52:11 <JAllan> jr: explains ATAG b233
17:53:12 <JAllan> this could be a resource for 1.2.x
17:54:30 <JAllan> sh: what about adding poorly repaired alternative
17:55:42 <JAllan> js: we don't want repair, we want alternatives
17:56:30 <JAllan> jr: UA of future could ocr image, use databased images (OBI project from DIAGAM)
17:57:55 <JAllan> jr: keep 121 and 122, because they can be turned off, and add simons for additional help 
17:58:26 <JAllan> ... user access metadata to discover.
17:58:52 <JAllan> js: don't like, we spent lots of time about not repairing information.
17:59:21 <JAllan> kf: without repair, how much effort will users go to to get information
17:59:58 <JAllan> sh: useful repair is so far out, thinks metadata is more important.
18:00:25 <JAllan> js: we wanted to eliminate stupid repair.
18:00:40 <JAllan> ... good with removing 121 and 122.
18:01:14 <JAllan> jr: then we must eliminate totally the repair. the entire point is the 'whether or not'.
18:02:18 <JAllan> js: how to reword to eliminate an sc.
18:02:53 <JAllan> jr: ATAG has concept...don't repair unless special knowledge, then kick to AT to make obvious repair.
18:03:10 <JAllan> ... that special knowledge is the metadata.
18:03:41 <JAllan> js: filename is matadata, but we want to eliminate it.
18:04:45 <JAllan> sh: support wrapping in 1.2.3 repair association. as a AAA
18:05:27 <JAllan> ... put 121 122 and 123 in to 1 sc. and the Metadata (new one is A).
18:05:43 <JAllan> ... other (conflated one) is AAA
18:06:49 <jeanne> action-712 assign to Jan
18:07:00 <jeanne> zakim, assign action-712 to Jan
18:07:00 <Zakim> I don't understand 'assign action-712 to Jan', jeanne
18:07:35 <JAllan> zakim, close item 1
18:07:35 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, JAllan
18:07:51 <JAllan> zakim, q?
18:07:51 <Zakim> I see jeanne on the speaker queue
18:07:57 <JAllan> ack jeanne
18:07:57 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to propose that "associations" become "accessibility information"
18:08:06 <JAllan> zakim, close item 1
18:08:06 <Zakim> agendum 1, 1.2.1 & 1.2.2  Action-712 Simon, closed
18:08:07 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:08:07 <Zakim> 2. 1.3.2 editors note (not assigned to anyone) Kim? [from JAllan]
18:10:04 <jeanne> Resolved: Remove editor's note from 1.3.2
18:10:10 <JAllan> zakim, close item 2
18:10:10 <Zakim> agendum 2, 1.3.2 editors note (not assigned to anyone) Kim?, closed
18:10:11 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:10:11 <Zakim> 3. 1.3.3, 1.5.1  needs decision on whether it is done or not (no [from JAllan]
18:10:35 <JAllan> zakim, open next
18:10:35 <Zakim> agendum 3. "1.3.3, 1.5.1  needs decision on whether it is done or not (no" taken up [from JAllan]
18:11:35 <JAllan> jr: seems like we talked about this recently
18:12:58 <JAllan> ... what is this adding to 1.3.1
18:14:44 <JAllan> kim: intents are very different
18:15:05 <JAllan> ja: 131 does not cover scripted elements.
18:15:32 <JAllan> sh: these are all about visually perceiveable. what about auditory highlighting?
18:18:19 <JAllan> kim: need to add 'visual highlighting' to 132
18:19:02 <JAllan> jr: general highlighting is covered in 131
18:19:32 <JAllan> ... we could get prescriptive and add auditory
18:19:47 <JAllan> ja: what about haptic
18:20:15 <JAllan> kp: do we have a parallel for what the audio highlighting should be?
18:20:50 <JAllan> js: perhaps add to UAAG-Next!
18:21:05 <JAllan> kim: kelly would this be useful
18:21:15 <JAllan> kf: not sure
18:22:50 <JAllan> sh: have audio style bold, italic (different audio, voices) what about links selections, etc
18:23:12 <JAllan> kp: what is the audio equivelent
18:24:32 <jeanne> How about "If the user agent uses visual, "
18:26:05 <JAllan> issue: if the user agent has an audio or tactile or xxx display then provide the following highlighting...related to 1.3.1,2,3
18:26:05 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-91 - If the user agent has an audio or tactile or xxx display then provide the following highlighting...related to 1.3.1,2,3 ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/91/edit .
18:28:05 <JAllan> jr: this is a disconnect between 131 c and 133 a
18:28:36 <JAllan> ... what if we remove 133a and let it focus on scripted input.
18:28:42 <JAllan> kp: +1
18:28:48 <JAllan> ja: +1
18:30:19 <JAllan> jr: should 131 c be enabled input elements
18:33:20 <JAllan> action: kim to rewrite 133 to eliminate a) and make b the focus of it be b. need some rewording on the (e.g. ) perhaps eliminate.
18:33:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-723 - Rewrite 133 to eliminate a) and make b the focus of it be b. need some rewording on the (e.g. ) perhaps eliminate. [on Kimberly Patch - due 2012-04-19].
18:34:19 <JAllan> jr: every element on a page could have an id, don't want to highlight everything
18:34:30 <JAllan> ja: javascript blackhole
18:35:56 <Zakim> -Jan
18:36:31 <JAllan> ja: how is this related to tabindex=_1
18:37:37 <JAllan> the onclick or onkeypress are going away.
18:40:35 <JAllan> ja: should 133 be eliminated. because scripting is becomming more abstract, and only special case of onClick and onKeyPress 
18:41:27 <Zakim> -sharper
18:41:30 <Zakim> -Kim_Patch
18:41:31 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
18:41:33 <Zakim> -Jeanne
18:41:37 <Zakim> -Jim_Allan
18:41:38 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:41:38 <Zakim> Attendees were [Microsoft], Jim_Allan, Jeanne, Jan, Kim_Patch, sharper
19:24:38 <JAllan> s/x=_1/x=-1
19:24:46 <JAllan> rrsagent make minutes
19:24:55 <JAllan> rrsagent, make minutes
19:24:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/12-ua-minutes.html JAllan
19:25:48 <JAllan> zakim, [Microsoft] is really KellyFord
19:25:48 <Zakim> sorry, JAllan, I do not recognize a party named '[Microsoft]'
19:26:04 <JAllan> zakim, please part
19:26:04 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ua
19:26:11 <JAllan> rrsagent, make minutes
19:26:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/12-ua-minutes.html JAllan
19:26:24 <JAllan> rrsagent, please part
19:26:24 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/12-ua-actions.rdf :
19:26:24 <RRSAgent> ACTION: kim to rewrite 133 to eliminate a) and make b the focus of it be b. need some rewording on the (e.g. ) perhaps eliminate. [1]
19:26:24 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/12-ua-irc#T18-33-20