IRC log of eval on 2012-04-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:24:51 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #eval
12:24:51 [RRSAgent]
logging to
12:24:53 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
12:24:53 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #eval
12:24:55 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 3825
12:24:55 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
12:24:56 [trackbot]
Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference
12:24:57 [trackbot]
Date: 12 April 2012
12:25:13 [shadi]
chair: Eric
12:25:25 [shadi]
zakim, whis will be eval
12:25:25 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'whis will be eval', shadi
12:25:39 [shadi]
zakim, whis will be 3825
12:25:39 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'whis will be 3825', shadi
12:25:52 [shadi]
zakim, this will be eval
12:25:52 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, shadi
13:08:39 [Moe]
Moe has joined #eval
13:49:20 [MartijnHoutepen]
MartijnHoutepen has joined #eval
13:49:50 [MartijnHoutepen]
trackbot, start meeting
13:49:53 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:49:55 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 3825
13:49:55 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
13:49:56 [trackbot]
Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference
13:49:56 [trackbot]
Date: 12 April 2012
13:51:22 [Kathy]
Kathy has joined #eval
13:51:25 [Detlev]
Detlev has joined #eval
13:52:28 [Detlev]
Just present via IRC, intermittentlu...
13:52:43 [Zakim]
WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has now started
13:52:52 [Zakim]
+ +31.30.239.aaaa
13:53:08 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, aaaa is me
13:53:08 [Zakim]
+MartijnHoutepen; got it
13:54:55 [Zakim]
+ +1.978.443.aabb
13:55:37 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, aabb is Kathy
13:55:37 [Zakim]
+Kathy; got it
13:55:59 [Detlev]
Not many folks around today...
13:56:26 [MartijnHoutepen]
No, not yet
13:56:41 [Detlev]
I'm in a meeting, can't call in, will just follow via IRC
13:56:58 [MartijnHoutepen]
13:57:38 [Zakim]
+ +1.520.271.aacc
13:58:04 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, aacc is Don
13:58:04 [Zakim]
+Don; got it
13:59:13 [korn]
korn has joined #eval
13:59:41 [Liz]
Liz has joined #eval
14:00:20 [Zakim]
+ +1.301.975.aadd
14:00:41 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, aadd is Liz
14:00:41 [Zakim]
+Liz; got it
14:00:56 [Zakim]
+ +31.30.239.aaee
14:01:28 [Zakim]
14:01:51 [ericvelleman]
ericvelleman has joined #eval
14:02:02 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, aaee is ericvelleman
14:02:02 [Zakim]
+ericvelleman; got it
14:02:08 [Zakim]
+ +1.978.562.aaff
14:02:13 [Sarah_Swierenga]
Sarah_Swierenga has joined #eval
14:02:36 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, [Oracle] is korn
14:02:36 [Zakim]
+korn; got it
14:02:49 [Zakim]
+ +1.517.432.aagg
14:02:49 [Moe]
Moe has joined #eval
14:03:07 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, aaff is Moe
14:03:07 [Zakim]
+Moe; got it
14:03:41 [MartijnHoutepen]
14:04:10 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, agenda?
14:04:10 [Zakim]
I see nothing on the agenda
14:04:44 [Mike_Elledge]
Mike_Elledge has joined #eval
14:04:45 [Kathy]
Eric: New editor version available
14:04:58 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, agenda+ New comments
14:04:58 [Zakim]
agendum 1 added
14:05:13 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, agenda+ Next editor draft
14:05:13 [Zakim]
agendum 2 added
14:05:22 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, agenda+ other
14:05:22 [Zakim]
agendum 3 added
14:05:31 [Kathy]
Eric: There is still only two comments on the mailing list. If you are on social media, please point people to the document
14:05:32 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, take up next
14:05:32 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "New comments" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
14:05:36 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, take up next
14:05:36 [Zakim]
agendum 1 was just opened, MartijnHoutepen
14:05:47 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, close agendum 1
14:05:47 [Zakim]
agendum 1, New comments, closed
14:05:48 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:05:48 [Zakim]
2. Next editor draft [from MartijnHoutepen]
14:05:52 [Zakim]
+ +1.517.353.aahh
14:06:13 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, mute me
14:06:13 [Zakim]
MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
14:06:19 [Kathy]
Eric: Here is the new version: Eric will work on the use cases section and will include items from this meeting
14:06:25 [Kathy]
zakim, mute me
14:06:25 [Zakim]
Kathy should now be muted
14:06:27 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, aahh is Mike
14:06:27 [Zakim]
+Mike; got it
14:07:00 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, aagg is Sarah_Swierenga
14:07:00 [Zakim]
+Sarah_Swierenga; got it
14:07:15 [Kathy]
Eric: Step 4 - tried to keep the text as short as possible. Requirements has been added
14:08:39 [Kathy]
Peter: Requirement 4c Does the accessibility supported techniques is that connected to tools used in 4a
14:09:32 [Kathy]
Eric: It is all connected to previous sections including step 2 & 3 and 4.
14:10:08 [Zakim]
14:10:46 [kerstin]
kerstin has joined #eval
14:10:56 [Kathy]
Peter: Wondering if there should be a reference in 4c to the tools used
14:11:02 [kerstin]
zakim, mute me
14:11:02 [Zakim]
sorry, kerstin, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:11:06 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, ??P28 is Kerstin
14:11:06 [Zakim]
+Kerstin; got it
14:11:14 [kerstin]
zakim, mute me
14:11:14 [Zakim]
Kerstin should now be muted
14:11:26 [Kathy]
Eric: recording the tools allows others to reproduce the results
14:11:27 [kerstin]
thanks Martijn
14:11:35 [MartijnHoutepen]
no problem
14:12:39 [Kathy]
Peter: Should we give people more guideance on the tools used
14:13:48 [Kathy]
Eric: The tools include browsers, assistive technology and other plugins. This would be defined in 1d. In step 2, you include pages
14:14:24 [Mike_Elledge]
14:14:38 [Kathy]
Peter: the editor note should be included in the text (4d)
14:14:43 [ericvelleman]
14:14:51 [Kathy]
Eric: will add this
14:16:09 [Kathy]
Mike: We should not telling people what tools they should use for evaluation but tools used should be recorded. It is covered under WCAG 2.0
14:16:42 [Kathy]
Eric: we should record what was used, this is in step 4e
14:17:15 [Kathy]
Eric: it is up to the evaluator to decide what tools they will use
14:17:37 [ericvelleman]
14:17:56 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, q- Mike
14:17:56 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
14:18:12 [Kathy]
Eric: Is anything missing from these steps
14:18:30 [ericvelleman]
14:18:36 [korn]
14:19:03 [MartijnHoutepen]
ack korn
14:19:32 [Kathy]
Peter: Archiving section - web application may need a lot more information. You cannot archive URLS. Order of entry and data entered is important
14:19:54 [Kathy]
Peter: More information will need to be recorded - what they did and what happened
14:20:06 [Kathy]
Eric: This is 4d
14:20:15 [ericvelleman]
14:21:22 [Mike_Elledge]
14:21:27 [Kathy]
Eric - Can you get screen shots?
14:21:53 [Kathy]
Peter - Good idea but it may not be possible in all situations. Should not be required
14:22:12 [ericvelleman]
14:22:19 [Kathy]
Eric - How much description should we have?
14:22:42 [Kathy]
Peter: Not much more, just a bit more about steps
14:23:28 [Kathy]
Mike: It will depend on what you are evaluation and client expectations. May be just a list of pages checked. If there is complicated steps then it will vary
14:23:32 [Sarah_Swierenga]
14:23:52 [Kathy]
Eric: Let's go back to 4a
14:24:11 [Kathy]
Eric: Will work in the details from the mailing list in 4a
14:24:19 [ericvelleman]
14:24:33 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, q- Mike
14:24:33 [Zakim]
I see Sarah_Swierenga on the speaker queue
14:24:38 [MartijnHoutepen]
ack Sarah
14:25:12 [Kathy]
Sarah: Do we need screen shots from all browsers and conditions?
14:25:41 [korn]
14:25:55 [Moe]
14:26:23 [Kathy]
Eric: This is optional. Not sure what is the minimal information needed for recording
14:26:25 [MartijnHoutepen]
ack korn
14:26:25 [ericvelleman]
14:26:47 [Tim]
Tim has joined #eval
14:27:44 [Kathy]
Peter: In 1d we tell users to select the minimum set of web browsers and assistive technology. We may want to say as selected in rather than defined in
14:28:07 [Kathy]
Moe: Caution the use of screenshots. Low vision users find these difficult
14:28:31 [Sarah_Swierenga]
14:28:33 [ericvelleman]
14:28:39 [MartijnHoutepen]
ack moe
14:28:44 [Kathy]
Eric: We should have more than just screen shots and maybe we should have steps so that screen shot is complementary
14:28:56 [MartijnHoutepen]
ack Sarah
14:29:01 [ericvelleman]
14:29:33 [Kathy]
Sarah: screen shots should be supplemental. Really need the steps and what you entered
14:29:56 [Kathy]
Sarah: To what extend does this need to be replicable
14:30:04 [Zakim]
14:30:09 [Kathy]
Eric: The results shoudl be comparable
14:30:24 [Kathy]
Eric: so it is what is needed to accomplish this goal
14:30:28 [ericvelleman]
14:31:01 [Kathy]
ack me
14:31:21 [Kathy]
Peter: Not likely
14:31:56 [Kathy]
Eric: We need to include this in section 4
14:32:19 [Sarah_Swierenga]
- not likely - and if archiving is optional, then it wouldn't be possible to replicate at all.
14:32:40 [ericvelleman]
14:32:42 [Kathy]
Eric: what is needed to make it replicable
14:33:13 [Kathy]
14:33:29 [kerstin]
don't have any idea about what "Check pages from the sample using the specified sets or sources of techniques" exactly means
14:34:53 [MartijnHoutepen]
ack kathy
14:36:09 [Mike_Elledge]
14:37:43 [Kathy]
Mike: matter of degree, people will be reluctant to list the protocol followed
14:38:35 [Kathy]
Mike: how explicit does this need to be. Some of this is subjective
14:39:18 [MartijnHoutepen]
14:39:23 [MartijnHoutepen]
q- Mike
14:39:25 [Kathy]
Eric: started defining a flow chart but there are so many possibities. Hard to define
14:39:39 [Sarah_Swierenga]
14:39:53 [ericvelleman]
14:39:55 [MartijnHoutepen]
ack me
14:40:31 [Kathy]
Martijn: if need to be replicable you would need to record all the details
14:41:00 [MartijnHoutepen]
ack Sarah
14:41:58 [Kathy]
Sarah: If it is optional then it will be ignored by most evaluators. All about how to do a WCAG 2.0 evaluation. This is time consuming plus gives other the inside view of how to do the work
14:42:04 [ericvelleman]
14:42:34 [Kathy]
Eric: Not convinced that we should not have more details
14:42:56 [Kathy]
Eric: what about saying we need to review the complete process
14:43:09 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, mute me
14:43:09 [Zakim]
MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
14:43:24 [Mike_Elledge]
Scribe's perogative? :^)
14:44:50 [Kathy]
Kathy: could give some options for approaches
14:44:52 [ericvelleman]
14:45:15 [Sarah_Swierenga]
14:45:19 [Kathy]
Eric: should we give people more detail on how to use WCAG 2.0
14:45:35 [Kathy]
Tim: are there principles of auditing
14:45:42 [ericvelleman]
14:46:06 [Kathy]
Eric: Can we come up with an ideal set of steps
14:46:39 [Kathy]
Sarah: this may be the place where we can talk about automated tools, keyboard only etc.
14:47:04 [Kathy]
Eric: Depends on context and use cases defined
14:47:19 [ericvelleman]
14:47:20 [kerstin]
14:47:23 [Kathy]
Eric: we need high-level principles
14:47:29 [MartijnHoutepen]
q- Sarah
14:47:39 [kerstin]
zakim, unmute me
14:47:39 [Zakim]
Kerstin should no longer be muted
14:47:45 [MartijnHoutepen]
ack Kerstin
14:48:34 [Kathy]
Kerstin: This is important. Some items better to check later
14:48:52 [kerstin]
zakim, mute me
14:48:52 [Zakim]
Kerstin should now be muted
14:49:04 [Kathy]
Eric: this is why maybe having a step by step approach. Some items can be easier to do later
14:49:09 [kerstin]
zakim, unmute me
14:49:09 [Zakim]
Kerstin should no longer be muted
14:49:23 [Kathy]
Kerstin: we should try to define it
14:49:29 [kerstin]
zakim, mute me
14:49:29 [Zakim]
Kerstin should now be muted
14:49:33 [Kathy]
Eric: I will try to add this
14:49:53 [Kathy]
Eric: send examples through the list
14:50:24 [Kathy]
Eric: will start working on Step 5 - by Monday will have text in the section
14:50:43 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, take up next
14:50:43 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Next editor draft" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
14:50:45 [Kathy]
Eric: Any other issues?
14:50:55 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, close agendum 2
14:50:55 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Next editor draft, closed
14:50:56 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
14:50:56 [Zakim]
3. other [from MartijnHoutepen]
14:51:15 [kerstin]
14:51:17 [MartijnHoutepen]
ack me
14:51:18 [Zakim]
14:51:18 [Zakim]
14:51:20 [Zakim]
14:51:20 [Mike_Elledge]
14:51:21 [Zakim]
14:51:22 [Sarah_Swierenga]
14:51:26 [Zakim]
14:51:31 [Zakim]
14:51:33 [Zakim]
14:51:35 [Zakim]
14:51:46 [MartijnHoutepen]
trackbot, end meeting
14:51:46 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
14:51:46 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been +31.30.239.aaaa, MartijnHoutepen, +1.978.443.aabb, Kathy, +1.520.271.aacc, Don, +1.301.975.aadd, Liz, +31.30.239.aaee, ericvelleman,
14:51:50 [Zakim]
... +1.978.562.aaff, korn, +1.517.432.aagg, Moe, +1.517.353.aahh, Mike, Sarah_Swierenga, Kerstin, Tim_Boland
14:51:50 [Zakim]
14:51:54 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:51:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
14:51:55 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
14:51:55 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items