IRC log of css on 2012-04-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:24:48 [RRSAgent]
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15:24:48 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/11-css-irc
15:24:52 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
15:24:53 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 36 minutes
15:24:57 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:26:32 [miketaylr]
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15:31:36 [arno]
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15:32:42 [kennyluck]
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15:46:26 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: V&U's not in LC yet, right? Latest draft I see on /TR is a WD.
15:51:07 [arronei]
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15:51:10 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-values/#status
15:51:42 [TabAtkins]
Hurp durp, of course.]
15:51:54 [TabAtkins]
All right, so I need to file Kenny's issues.
15:55:19 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:55:25 [arronei]
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15:55:26 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.324.aaaa
15:55:34 [sylvaing]
Zakim, aaaa is sylvaing
15:55:34 [Zakim]
+sylvaing; got it
15:55:38 [Zakim]
+??P27
15:55:43 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P27 is me
15:55:43 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
15:56:33 [Zakim]
+plinss
15:56:41 [dbaron]
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15:56:55 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
15:57:08 [glenn]
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15:57:53 [glazou]
FWIW, we have the transition conf call for both Backgrounds and Images later today
15:58:03 [sylvaing]
and image values?
15:58:10 [TabAtkins]
Yup. When is it?
15:58:12 [sylvaing]
never mind
15:58:29 [glazou]
CSS Image Values and Replaced Content Module Level 3
15:58:37 [Zakim]
+??P33
15:58:40 [glazou]
6pm UTC
15:58:47 [glenn]
zakim, ??p33 is glenn
15:58:47 [Zakim]
+glenn; got it
15:58:59 [glazou]
so 8pm here
15:59:13 [bradk]
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15:59:54 [Zakim]
+ +1.619.846.aabb
16:00:18 [logbot]
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16:00:23 [plinss]
zakim, aabb is hober
16:00:23 [Zakim]
+hober; got it
16:00:38 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.766.aacc
16:00:50 [Zakim]
+SteveZ
16:00:55 [bradk]
Zakim, aacc is me
16:00:55 [Zakim]
+bradk; got it
16:01:00 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.253.aadd
16:01:11 [TabAtkins]
Zakim, aadd is me
16:01:11 [Zakim]
+TabAtkins; got it
16:01:33 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.a]
16:01:36 [arronei]
zakim, microsoft has me
16:01:36 [Zakim]
+arronei; got it
16:01:39 [SteveZ]
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16:01:43 [antonp]
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16:01:43 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.550.aaee
16:01:49 [stearns]
zakim, aaee is me
16:01:49 [Zakim]
+stearns; got it
16:02:01 [Zakim]
+Molly_Holzschlag
16:02:05 [glazou]
yes
16:02:08 [TabAtkins]
kk
16:02:13 [PhilCupp]
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16:02:15 [logbot]
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16:02:16 [glazou]
duration up to 90mins
16:02:25 [Zakim]
+ +93550aaff
16:02:27 [glazou]
peter and I plan to attend
16:02:33 [antonp]
Zakim, aaff is me
16:02:33 [Zakim]
+antonp; got it
16:02:50 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.832.aagg
16:03:03 [krit]
krit has joined #css
16:03:11 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.aa]
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16:03:23 [Zakim]
+fantasai
16:03:32 [JohnJansen]
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16:03:43 [JohnJansen]
Zakim, microsoft has JohnJansen
16:03:43 [Zakim]
+JohnJansen; got it
16:03:45 [Zakim]
+??P53
16:03:51 [krit]
zakim, who's here?
16:03:51 [Zakim]
On the phone I see sylvaing, glazou, plinss, [Microsoft], glenn, hober, bradk, SteveZ, TabAtkins, [Microsoft.a], stearns, Molly_Holzschlag, antonp, +1.415.832.aagg, [Microsoft.aa],
16:03:54 [Zakim]
... fantasai, ??P53
16:03:55 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has JohnJansen
16:03:58 [Zakim]
On IRC I see JohnJansen, nimbu, krit, logbot, PhilCupp, antonp, SteveZ, arronei, bradk, glenn, dbaron, kennyluck, miketaylr, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, mollydotcom, tantek, kojiishi,
16:04:01 [Zakim]
... ksweeney, myakura, gsnedders, drublic, SimonSapin, leaverou, danielfilho, Liam, krijnh, ed, Echoes, stearns, paul___irish, CSSWG_LogBot, vhardy, sylvaing, plinss, alexmog,
16:04:05 [Zakim]
... shans, macpherson, isherman, shepazu, pjrm, Hixie, hober, fantasai, Bert, TabAtkins, trackbot
16:04:11 [vhardy_]
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16:04:53 [krit]
Zakim, aagg is vhardy
16:04:57 [Zakim]
+Bert
16:05:08 [Zakim]
+vhardy; got it
16:05:10 [glazou]
plinss is chairing today
16:05:44 [krit]
Zakim, vhardy is vhardy_
16:05:44 [Zakim]
+vhardy_; got it
16:06:10 [TabAtkins]
ScribeNick: TabAtkins
16:06:16 [TabAtkins]
plinss: Last minute items?
16:06:27 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Maybe the email about webkit-mask and reflections.
16:06:35 [TabAtkins]
glazou: I just read that Ted will submit a proposal to the WG.
16:06:44 [TabAtkins]
glazou: But maybe we need to discuss what to do about that.
16:06:51 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: I think we did discuss that at some point.
16:07:09 [TabAtkins]
vhardy_: I'd like this to be in the FXTF charter, as this is related to SVG as well.
16:07:11 [Zakim]
+??P4
16:07:16 [kojiishi]
zakim, ??p4 is me
16:07:16 [Zakim]
+kojiishi; got it
16:07:16 [fantasai]
IIRC, we concluded that reflections should be done with filters or some other generic mechanism
16:07:35 [TabAtkins]
plinss: Where will it live and how much priority?
16:07:41 [TabAtkins]
glazou: we don't need to discuss it right now.
16:07:51 [TabAtkins]
plinss: Start with margin-collapsing, then.
16:07:53 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.766.aahh
16:07:55 [TabAtkins]
plinss: Any remaining issues?
16:08:00 [TabAtkins]
antonp: One and a half, yes.
16:08:09 [ChrisL]
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16:08:19 [TabAtkins]
antonp: The one we got halfway through last week...
16:08:24 [TabAtkins]
antonp: Is the bug I'm about to paste.
16:08:30 [antonp]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16049
16:08:50 [TabAtkins]
antonp: This concerned a note in chapter 10 about min-height and max-height.
16:08:58 [TabAtkins]
antonp: It was a confusing note; arron and I came up witha simpler note.
16:09:04 [TabAtkins]
antonp: We just removed most of the ntoe completely.
16:09:05 [Zakim]
+ChrisL
16:09:15 [glazou]
Zakim, mute ChrisL
16:09:15 [Zakim]
ChrisL should now be muted
16:09:18 [smfr]
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16:09:19 [TabAtkins]
antonp: But fantasai wanted to keep some mention of margin-collapsing in that note.
16:09:33 [TabAtkins]
antonp: So she proposed some wording.
16:09:33 [Zakim]
-ChrisL
16:09:34 [glazou]
ChrisL: sorry, your phone was clicking a lot
16:09:45 [glazou]
LOL
16:09:46 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.636.aaii
16:09:50 [fantasai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Apr/0101.html
16:09:54 [TabAtkins]
antonp: So rather than take her exact wording, I thought we could resolve to somethign similar.
16:09:55 [smfr]
Zakim, aaii is me
16:09:55 [Zakim]
+smfr; got it
16:10:15 [Zakim]
+ChrisL
16:10:20 [antonp]
last week fantasai proposed: "for example, margin collapsing is not affected because based on computed values and not used values"
16:10:23 [glazou]
ChrisL: much better
16:10:39 [tantek]
scribe: I am attending via IRC only today.
16:10:44 [TabAtkins]
antonp: The proposal can be found in that bug report.
16:10:58 [TabAtkins]
antonp: Scroll down to the very end of the comments to see the proposal from last week.
16:11:23 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.aaa]
16:11:28 [smfr]
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16:11:28 [TabAtkins]
antonp: I'm fine with adding an extra line along the lines of what fantasai proposed, but I'm not entirely happy about her exact wording.
16:11:28 [dstorey]
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16:11:39 [TabAtkins]
antonp: I agree that a note about margin-collapsing here could be useful
16:12:00 [TabAtkins]
antonp: But if it's needed, it's because the calculation for min/max height need a temporary value of what the computed height is.
16:12:15 [TabAtkins]
antonp: And the idea of the note is that you're *nto* supposed to re-think about margin-collapsing when doing the real height.
16:12:18 [fantasai]
suggest s/affected/recalculated/
16:12:27 [TabAtkins]
antonp: So I'd prefer what I said in note 3.
16:12:48 [Zakim]
+??P19
16:12:53 [TabAtkins]
antonp: So the full proposal is to take the sentence in comment 2 and the sentence in comment 3 and put them together.
16:13:08 [TabAtkins]
antonp: last week we agreed on the comment 2 sentence, but there was some confusion about the comment 3 sentence.
16:13:20 [dstorey]
zakim, ??P19 is me
16:13:20 [Zakim]
+dstorey; got it
16:13:47 [dbaron]
fine with me
16:13:48 [TabAtkins]
plinss: I hear no objections.
16:14:15 [TabAtkins]
RESOLVED: Accept Anton's edit merging the sentences in comment 2 and 3 in the bug report about margin-collapsing.
16:14:29 [Katie]
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16:14:38 [antonp]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16037
16:15:02 [TabAtkins]
antonp: In this case, we've got an auto-height parent with a large min-height.
16:15:07 [TabAtkins]
antonp: And it contains a last-child.
16:15:19 [TabAtkins]
antonp: Should there be collapsing between the margin of the last-child and the margin of the parent?
16:15:27 [TabAtkins]
antonp: We discussed this in Paris and drew some diagrams.
16:15:42 [TabAtkins]
antonp: And we more-or-less agreed that we should do collapsing, even though it seems a bit strange in this case.
16:16:01 [TabAtkins]
antonp: It turns out this bug has a relationship to bug 16036 which we discussed last week.
16:16:16 [TabAtkins]
antonp: In the comments there's some mention of this, and how it influences the wording we need to use to fix 16037.
16:16:25 [TabAtkins]
antonp: The proposal is in comment 5 of the bug report.
16:16:44 [TabAtkins]
antonp: This makes things a bit clearer.
16:16:53 [TabAtkins]
antonp: It splits the conditions into a list, rather than a long complicated sentence.
16:17:10 [TabAtkins]
antonp: In the previous spec it was a complex sentence, but the addition we're making renders it much harder to read.
16:17:29 [TabAtkins]
antonp: So hopefully we're achieve the desired effect, which is to say that margin-collapsing does occur between the last child and the bottom margin of the parent in this case.
16:17:35 [TabAtkins]
antonp: This is currently part of a giant note.
16:17:59 [TabAtkins]
antonp: It was previous normative, but it was recently changed to a note so it could be changed to more readable and comprehensive normative text later.
16:18:34 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: So the change is that you're removing the mention of min-height at the beginning of the sentence, and adding a metnion of it in the third bullet?
16:18:37 [TabAtkins]
antonp: Yes.
16:18:51 [TabAtkins]
antonp: I don't think the current spec is quite wrong, I think it's just overly specific.
16:18:58 [Ms2ger]
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16:19:03 [TabAtkins]
antonp: And because of that, it gives you the impression that you wouldn't collapse in another condition.
16:19:11 [TabAtkins]
antonp: And w'ere saying there can be collapsing in another condition as well.
16:19:27 [TabAtkins]
antonp: Giving very specific conditions can be misleading if there's a more general rule in actuality.
16:20:08 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: Sounds okay to me, though I haven't worked through it in full detail.
16:20:15 [Zakim]
+??P5
16:20:20 [Katie]
Zakim, who's on the call?
16:20:20 [Zakim]
On the phone I see sylvaing, glazou, plinss, [Microsoft], glenn, hober, bradk, SteveZ, TabAtkins, [Microsoft.a], stearns, Molly_Holzschlag, antonp, vhardy_, [Microsoft.aa],
16:20:22 [TabAtkins]
plinss: Can this change behavior in some cases? Do e have testcases?
16:20:23 [Zakim]
... fantasai, ??P53, Bert, kojiishi, dbaron, smfr, ChrisL, [Microsoft.aaa], dstorey, ??P5
16:20:23 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has JohnJansen
16:20:31 [TabAtkins]
antonp: I'm not aware of any specific testcases for this.
16:20:52 [Katie]
[Microsoft.aa] has Katie
16:20:53 [TabAtkins]
antonp: There are testcases around this, but as soon as you get into complex sets of conditions for margin-collapsing, there usually arent' testcases.
16:21:01 [TabAtkins]
antonp: I'm all in favor of adding testcases.
16:21:51 [TabAtkins]
plinss: I'd like to see testcases for this.
16:22:01 [TabAtkins]
antonp: Does that mean you'd like to see a testcase before resolving?
16:22:09 [Katie]
zakim, [Microsoft.aa] is katie
16:22:09 [Zakim]
+katie; got it
16:22:10 [TabAtkins]
plinss: I think so, unless someone really wants to resolve now?
16:22:18 [TabAtkins]
mollydotcom: I think that personally if the language is clear, it's fine.
16:22:40 [TabAtkins]
mollydotcom: It seems that in what Anton described, that's the behavior that people actually want.
16:23:10 [smfr]
TabAtkins++
16:24:01 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: I disagree - margin-collapsing is ridiculously complicated, so we need testcases anyway.
16:24:29 [TabAtkins]
mollydotcom: I just mean that if the language is clear, it's not required that a testcase appears before we accept the note.
16:24:50 [TabAtkins]
RESOLVED: Accept Anton's edit about margin-collapsing of a min-height parent and last-child.
16:25:03 [TabAtkins]
antonp: The other issue in the agenda doesn't seem to have priority. I can postpone.
16:25:10 [TabAtkins]
plinss: Sounds good.
16:25:23 [TabAtkins]
plinss: Next topic - combining justification and white-space:pre.
16:26:11 [dbaron]
ScribeNick: dbaron
16:26:16 [dbaron]
Topic: Combining justification and white-space: pre
16:26:33 [dbaron]
fantasai: I think this is already resolved because of a decision we made about 2.1 -- should already be in the spec.
16:26:39 [dbaron]
TabAtkins: Was it put in the spec more than a month ago?
16:26:53 [dbaron]
fantasai: Says in the section on 'text-align': ... reads from spec...
16:27:24 [dbaron]
TabAtkins: This does work once that is changed from collapsible to non-collapsible, which means this is fine.
16:27:41 [dbaron]
Topic: breaking replaced elements
16:27:44 [dbaron]
ScribeNick: TabAtkins
16:28:09 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: I haven't triaged any css3-break issues yet, and rossen's not on the call, so we shoudl defer this issue until the two of us have had a chance to look at it.
16:28:28 [TabAtkins]
plinss: Vincent, are you okay with deferring?
16:28:30 [TabAtkins]
vhardy_: Yep.
16:28:51 [smfr]
url?
16:28:59 [plinss]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Mar/0445.html
16:29:00 [dbaron]
Topic: Interaction of animation-fill-mode with running/completed animations
16:29:14 [TabAtkins]
plinss: Next, interaction of animation-fill-mode with running/completed animations.
16:29:28 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: What happens if the animation-fill-mode is updated after an animation is started or after it's completed?
16:29:38 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: There's some language about snapshotting the values when an animation starts.
16:29:47 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: I don't like the whole wording about capturing values.
16:29:51 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: So what do we do then?
16:29:58 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: I think this should have an effect either way.
16:30:13 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: You have an animation, it starts at some time, and you can compute ...
16:30:24 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: The things that have an effect at the time the animation starts are duration, delay, and name.
16:30:35 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: So those you'd treat as if they're snapshotted.
16:30:55 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: So if you ahve a 2s delay, and after 1.5s you update it to a 3s delay, what do you do?
16:31:05 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: I think I wrote something about this a year ago, trying to remember.
16:31:07 [Zakim]
-ChrisL
16:31:15 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: The snapshotting is simpler from implementation.
16:31:23 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: But if we dont' do it, we still need something clear and predictable.
16:31:35 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: My memory of what webkit does is that they snapshot some things, but not as much as the spec says.
16:31:53 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: My general issue is that anytime you snapshot, you're exposing more details about when changes occur.
16:32:00 [Zakim]
+ChrisL
16:32:19 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: So if you set an animation and then change a property about animations, whether it affects the animatino or not depends on how you batch style changes.
16:32:45 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: So what do we do instead?
16:33:05 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: I think what I proposed was that you compute a start time for the animation based on when animation-name changes.
16:33:27 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: If someone sets play-state to 'paused', while it's paused it moves that time forward.
16:33:36 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: But otherwise the only thing you snapshot is that start time.
16:33:51 [TabAtkins]
smfr: So you're suggesting that authors can change iteration-count or direction whiel it's running?
16:33:56 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: Yes.
16:34:43 [TabAtkins]
smfr: If you're halfway through a reverse iteration and you suddenly change animatino-direction, it'll jump.
16:35:42 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: So how does this stop detecting style batching? You're still in control of when you apply animatino-name.
16:36:02 [TabAtkins]
smfr: Were you suggesting that duration is snapshotted as well?
16:36:05 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: I dont' thinks o.
16:36:10 [Zakim]
+SteveZ.a
16:36:25 [Zakim]
-SteveZ
16:36:50 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: I think the implication there is that if you're 2s into an animation, and you change duration to 1s, it would automatically end and fire an animationend event.
16:36:56 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: Maybe something like that.
16:37:07 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: I think the snapshotting has its downsides, but it's simple and predictable.
16:37:22 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: That's not what webkit did - it didn't match the snapshotting.
16:37:33 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: Sure, but we coudl consider that to be a bug.
16:37:52 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: Is this better for authors?
16:38:06 [TabAtkins]
smfr: We've had feedback that people want to change animation-duration after the animation ahs started.
16:38:19 [TabAtkins]
vhardy_: I also think it's better to have a live model than a snapshot - this is the SMIL model too.
16:39:51 [TabAtkins]
[discussion about needing testcases]
16:40:34 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: Testing seems to be a red herring - we'll need it anyway. We need to decide between snapshot everything, snapshot some, or snapshot minimum.
16:40:42 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: Current impls dont' quite snapshot everything.
16:40:59 [TabAtkins]
smfr: Delay is interesting if you push it forward past the current time.
16:41:14 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: I think Gecko snapshots delay.
16:41:23 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: We compute a start time, and that involves delay.
16:42:15 [TabAtkins]
plinss: To me, it makes sense to let delay change if the animation hasn't started yet, and disallow it if it hasn't.
16:42:40 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: And if you set the delay back before the current amount of time delayed, start then or start as if it was delayed there the entire time?
16:42:44 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: I think the latter.
16:42:53 [TabAtkins]
plinss: So question is snapshot some, or snapshot minimum?
16:43:04 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: Seems that snapshotting less seems reasonable.
16:43:18 [TabAtkins]
vhardy_: SMIL's lack of snapshotting is convenient and solves some problems.
16:43:31 [TabAtkins]
plinss: Seems reasonable.
16:43:47 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: I think we're agreed not to keep the snapshotting. Maybe some more discussion about precise details.
16:44:33 [TabAtkins]
RESOLVED: Change the animation model to snapshot much less properties. Details of exactly what snapshotting is left TBD.
16:44:54 [plinss]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Mar/0418.html
16:44:56 [TabAtkins]
Topic: mismatched grid-template strings
16:45:33 [TabAtkins]
PhilCupp: I can speak to this.
16:45:41 [TabAtkins]
PhilCupp: What happens when strings are shorter than other?
16:45:55 [TabAtkins]
PhilCupp: We could consider extending the last character until they're equal length.
16:46:02 [TabAtkins]
PhilCupp: But that can create non-rectangular grid cells.
16:46:24 [TabAtkins]
PhilCupp: So I suggest we just pad it with empty cells.
16:46:30 [TabAtkins]
PhilCupp: I think Bert just responded with the same suggestion.
16:46:37 [TabAtkins]
PhilCupp: The second discussion was about non-rectangular regions.
16:46:51 [TabAtkins]
PhilCupp: I think there was agreement that it would be useful, but we don't want to add it to the current level of the spec.
16:47:40 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: I agree with both of these.
16:48:12 [TabAtkins]
antonp: For shorter strings, I'd prefer them to be invalid.
16:48:52 [TabAtkins]
PhilCupp: We could do that too.
16:49:11 [TabAtkins]
antonp: I think it's good to encourage typing out the periods when you want empty cells, to make it more readable.
16:49:24 [vhardy_]
vhardy: agree with antonp
16:49:47 [TabAtkins]
plinss: Then we could in the future decide to make mismatched string lengths pad out the last cell, even if it's a non-rectangular region.
16:50:03 [TabAtkins]
PhilCupp: I'm okay with that.
16:50:20 [TabAtkins]
RESOLVED: Treat both mismatched string lengths and non-rectangular regions as illegal syntax in Grid.
16:50:36 [TabAtkins]
Topic: webkit-mask
16:50:57 [TabAtkins]
glazou: The WG needs to discuss this because of the f2f discussions in paris.
16:51:10 [TabAtkins]
glazou: I spent roughly 20 minutes today looking for sites using this in production. It's spreading fast.
16:51:18 [fantasai]
http://robert.ocallahan.org/2008/06/applying-svg-effects-to-html-content_04.html
16:51:19 [TabAtkins]
glazou: I'd like to avoid the clash we had in Paris for other properties.
16:51:41 [TabAtkins]
glazou: I heard the message from one brwoser vendor that the charis didn't jump on the proeprties implemented by one browser and spreading, so let's do this.
16:51:43 [ChrisL]
q+
16:52:09 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: We had a discussion about these proeprties before, and our conclusion was not to have new properties for masking and reflection, but rather to use the existing SVG properties for this.
16:52:41 [TabAtkins]
ChrisL: Agreed. Looking at this blog post, it seems Maciej didn't like or understand them.
16:52:51 [TabAtkins]
ChrisL: And we can extend this in the future.
16:53:05 [TabAtkins]
ChrisL: Such as using one color channel in an image, or something like that.
16:53:12 [vhardy_]
q+
16:53:21 [TabAtkins]
ChrisL: So using SVG's seems to be a more workable approach and has a longer implementation history.
16:53:51 [TabAtkins]
glazou: There's a trend about webkit-mask today.
16:54:03 [TabAtkins]
ChrisL: But if we do this now, SVG will have to support both of them now.
16:54:09 [TabAtkins]
ack ChrisL
16:54:28 [fantasai]
plinss++
16:54:29 [TabAtkins]
ChrisL: We've had this confusion before, and we'd like to avoid it if possible.
16:54:50 [TabAtkins]
plinss: We do need to address this, but that' snot necessarily by introducing these proeprties per se.
16:54:58 [TabAtkins]
ack vhardy_
16:55:15 [TabAtkins]
vhardy_: Some of the uses I saw was people using masks to fill text with a gradient. Is that what you saw?
16:55:20 [plinss]
ack mollydotcom
16:55:24 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Most of what I saw was masks on images.
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16:55:54 [TabAtkins]
mollydotcom: Once again we see a webkit property proliferating, so I agree with Daniel that we need to address it. Just saying "here's SVG" won't win the day.
16:56:20 [TabAtkins]
mollydotcom: We should sync with SVG, but the demand is already here and needs syntax that people understand (CSS, not SVG).
16:56:28 [glazou]
+1
16:56:33 [glazou]
unfortunately
16:56:50 [vhardy_]
fantasai++
16:56:55 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: The proposal is to take a property that SVG already has and say "you can use it on HTML too".
16:57:21 [smfr]
applying a mask should not require typing angle brackets
16:57:32 [TabAtkins]
mollydotcom: Once the precedent is widely created, how do we turn back?
16:57:35 [fantasai]
instead of inventing a new property that does something that's almost the same as something we have
16:58:04 [smfr]
what is the proposal?
16:58:15 [JohnJansen]
I think this boils down to something being implemented in webkit, but no one brings that to the WG to get it standardized. It would be good to have a process other than "I've heard of this new thing in webkit..." who owns bringing something to the WG?
16:58:16 [glazou]
TabAtkins: the two of you are difficult to listen to :-)
16:58:21 [fantasai]
http://people.mozilla.com/~roc/SVG-CSS-Effects-Draft.html
16:58:35 [TabAtkins]
ChrisL: You don't need to point to SVG. The property lets you point to an image.
16:58:55 [fantasai]
JohnJansen: it was brought to the WG. And the WG decided to go with roc's approach.
16:59:14 [fantasai]
JohnJansen: but nothing happened, so now people are panicking
16:59:29 [dbaron]
and then there's also http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-css3-images-20120112/#element-reference
16:59:40 [dbaron]
which we just decided to remove
16:59:48 [smfr]
dbaron: that's certainly relevant for reflections
16:59:49 [Zakim]
-SteveZ.a
16:59:54 [dbaron]
smfr, yes
17:00:00 [sylvaing]
JohnJansen: yes, this is not a new random thing.
17:00:16 [TabAtkins]
krit: 'mask' actually needs to point to a <mask> element.
17:00:21 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: And that's not cool. :/
17:00:43 [TabAtkins]
ChrisL: We could use the same simplifying technique we used with 'filter' to make it CSS-friendly.
17:00:48 [TabAtkins]
plinss: In general that's okay.
17:00:49 [JohnJansen]
fantasai, sylvaing: I realize that... where is the proposal, though?
17:01:00 [sylvaing]
John: see links posted above
17:01:12 [TabAtkins]
plinss: So could someone propose a clean CSS syntax for this?
17:01:34 [TabAtkins]
hober: I can write up what webkit currently does, but I'm not sure I'm the best person to harmonize with SVG.
17:01:41 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins and vhardy_: We can help.
17:01:45 [Zakim]
-bradk
17:01:53 [fantasai]
dbaron: we didn't decide to remove it, we decided to defer it
17:02:11 [bradk]
sorry. Gots to go.
17:02:26 [TabAtkins]
glazou: And reflections.
17:02:38 [Zakim]
-stearns
17:02:44 [Zakim]
-vhardy_
17:02:45 [glazou]
ok
17:03:03 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: We had something - the element() property - that would have allowed reflections, but we decided to defer it a few weeks ago.
17:03:06 [Zakim]
-ChrisL
17:03:08 [Zakim]
-smfr
17:03:10 [TabAtkins]
s/property/function/
17:03:10 [Zakim]
-glazou
17:03:12 [dbaron]
s/property/value/
17:03:12 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
17:03:13 [Zakim]
-dbaron
17:03:13 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft.a]
17:03:14 [Zakim]
-kojiishi
17:03:14 [Zakim]
-hober
17:03:14 [Zakim]
-sylvaing
17:03:14 [antonp]
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17:03:15 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft.aaa]
17:03:17 [Zakim]
-plinss
17:03:22 [Zakim]
-Molly_Holzschlag
17:03:23 [Zakim]
-fantasai
17:03:25 [Zakim]
-TabAtkins
17:03:27 [Zakim]
-glenn
17:03:29 [Zakim]
-dstorey
17:03:29 [glazou]
plinss: tty in an hour for the other call
17:03:31 [Zakim]
-Bert
17:03:37 [Zakim]
-??P5
17:03:38 [Zakim]
-??P53
17:03:47 [plinss]
glazou: yep
17:03:48 [fantasai]
Bert: I forgot to check in the image for b&b
17:03:52 [fantasai]
Bert: it's done now
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17:04:15 [Zakim]
-katie
17:04:16 [Bert]
Thanks, Elika!
17:04:18 [Zakim]
-antonp
17:04:19 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:04:19 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.206.324.aaaa, sylvaing, glazou, plinss, glenn, +1.619.846.aabb, hober, +1.650.766.aacc, SteveZ, bradk, +1.650.253.aadd, TabAtkins, arronei, +1.206.550.aaee,
17:04:19 [Zakim]
... stearns, Molly_Holzschlag, +93550aaff, antonp, +1.415.832.aagg, [Microsoft], fantasai, JohnJansen, Bert, vhardy_, kojiishi, +1.415.766.aahh, dbaron, ChrisL, +1.408.636.aaii,
17:04:19 [Zakim]
... smfr, dstorey, katie
17:04:30 [Bert]
You regenerated Overview.html as well?
17:04:47 [fantasai]
yep
17:04:48 [fantasai]
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-background/#corner-shaping
17:04:59 [fantasai]
Bert: I also tweaked the note a bit more to make it clearer
17:05:08 [fantasai]
Bert: I roped a friend into reviewing it for me :)
17:05:25 [fantasai]
Bert: Hopefully it's better now
17:07:13 [Bert]
Looks good.
17:08:36 [mollydotcom]
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17:12:37 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: we should hang out sometime soon and go through all the values issues
17:12:44 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: and maybe plot our next conquest
17:13:14 [TabAtkins]
kk
17:13:22 [TabAtkins]
I'm logging some issues now. There are several.
17:13:29 [fantasai]
indeed
17:17:38 [krit1]
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17:26:31 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: Our testsuite for V&U is going to have to involve us using calc() and attr() in *every single location* they can possibly be used in.
17:35:39 [krit]
TabAtkins: espexially for relative values :)
17:36:53 [Ms2ger]
Actually, shouldn't your nick be krid?
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17:43:19 [gsnedders]
TabAtkins: location in the grammar or every possible property?
17:43:36 [TabAtkins]
gsnedders: Every property, as much as we can do.
17:43:52 [TabAtkins]
There are many places in the grammar where it's not allowed.
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18:00:16 [TabAtkins]
Hm, I can't find the email with instructions on what to call for the director.
18:00:25 [TabAtkins]
plinss fantasai ?
18:01:43 [vhardy_]
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18:04:13 [TabAtkins]
Actually, I've found the email that talks about it, and it simply has no information. I have no idea who I'm supposed to call.
18:07:37 [TabAtkins]
plinss: fantasai: ?_?
18:08:14 [plinss]
TabAtkins: sorry, I'm not catching the context of your question
18:08:36 [TabAtkins]
The call with the director is supposed to happen at 6pm GMT today. Which is 8 minutes ago.
18:10:26 [dstorey]
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18:10:49 [TabAtkins]
So... should we be in a conf call right now with TimBL or not?
18:12:57 [plinss]
ah, the images cr transition? we're doing that now, don't think we need you at this point
18:13:11 [TabAtkins]
Oh. I thought editors were needed on the call.
18:13:28 [plinss]
generally not, unless there's something contentious
18:13:51 [TabAtkins]
Okay. glazou reminded me of it, so I wasn't sure.
18:13:53 [TabAtkins]
Carry on then.
18:14:36 [plinss]
it's good if you're on standby in case we need you, but generally the chairs and staff contacts take care of it
18:17:43 [sylvaing]
If you're 8mn late on a TimBL call I'd guess you've probably missed the whole thing...
18:18:07 [sylvaing]
that's like 72 minutes of mere mortal speech
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fantasai: you there?
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