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15:24:48 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/11-css-irc
15:24:52 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
15:24:53 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 36 minutes
15:24:57 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
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15:46:26 <TabAtkins> fantasai: V&U's not in LC yet, right?  Latest draft I see on /TR is a WD.
15:51:07 <arronei> arronei has joined #css
15:51:10 <fantasai> TabAtkins: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-values/#status
15:51:42 <TabAtkins> Hurp durp, of course.]
15:51:54 <TabAtkins> All right, so I need to file Kenny's issues.
15:55:19 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:55:25 <arronei> arronei has joined #css
15:55:26 <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aaaa
15:55:34 <sylvaing> Zakim, aaaa is sylvaing
15:55:34 <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
15:55:38 <Zakim> +??P27
15:55:43 <glazou> Zakim, ??P27 is me
15:55:43 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
15:56:33 <Zakim> +plinss
15:56:41 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
15:56:55 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
15:57:08 <glenn> glenn has joined #css
15:57:53 <glazou> FWIW, we have the transition conf call for both Backgrounds and Images later today
15:58:03 <sylvaing> and image values?
15:58:10 <TabAtkins> Yup. When is it?
15:58:12 <sylvaing> never mind
15:58:29 <glazou> CSS Image Values and Replaced Content Module Level 3
15:58:37 <Zakim> +??P33
15:58:40 <glazou> 6pm UTC
15:58:47 <glenn> zakim, ??p33 is glenn
15:58:47 <Zakim> +glenn; got it
15:58:59 <glazou> so 8pm here
15:59:13 <bradk> bradk has joined #css
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15:59:54 <Zakim> + +1.619.846.aabb
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16:00:23 <plinss> zakim, aabb is hober
16:00:23 <Zakim> +hober; got it
16:00:38 <Zakim> + +1.650.766.aacc
16:00:50 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:00:55 <bradk> Zakim, aacc is me
16:00:55 <Zakim> +bradk; got it
16:01:00 <Zakim> + +1.650.253.aadd
16:01:11 <TabAtkins> Zakim, aadd is me
16:01:11 <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
16:01:33 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
16:01:36 <arronei> zakim, microsoft has me
16:01:36 <Zakim> +arronei; got it
16:01:39 <SteveZ> SteveZ has joined #css
16:01:43 <antonp> antonp has joined #css
16:01:43 <Zakim> + +1.206.550.aaee
16:01:49 <stearns> zakim, aaee is me
16:01:49 <Zakim> +stearns; got it
16:02:01 <Zakim> +Molly_Holzschlag
16:02:05 <glazou> yes
16:02:08 <TabAtkins> kk
16:02:13 <PhilCupp> PhilCupp has joined #css
16:02:15 <logbot> logbot has joined #css
16:02:16 <glazou> duration up to 90mins
16:02:25 <Zakim> + +93550aaff
16:02:27 <glazou> peter and I plan to attend
16:02:33 <antonp> Zakim, aaff is me
16:02:33 <Zakim> +antonp; got it
16:02:50 <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aagg
16:03:03 <krit> krit has joined #css
16:03:11 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
16:03:14 <nimbu> nimbu has joined #css
16:03:23 <Zakim> +fantasai
16:03:32 <JohnJansen> JohnJansen has joined #css
16:03:43 <JohnJansen> Zakim, microsoft has JohnJansen
16:03:43 <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
16:03:45 <Zakim> +??P53
16:03:51 <krit> zakim, who's here?
16:03:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see sylvaing, glazou, plinss, [Microsoft], glenn, hober, bradk, SteveZ, TabAtkins, [Microsoft.a], stearns, Molly_Holzschlag, antonp, +1.415.832.aagg, [Microsoft.aa],
16:03:54 <Zakim> ... fantasai, ??P53
16:03:55 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has JohnJansen
16:03:58 <Zakim> On IRC I see JohnJansen, nimbu, krit, logbot, PhilCupp, antonp, SteveZ, arronei, bradk, glenn, dbaron, kennyluck, miketaylr, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, mollydotcom, tantek, kojiishi,
16:04:01 <Zakim> ... ksweeney, myakura, gsnedders, drublic, SimonSapin, leaverou, danielfilho, Liam, krijnh, ed, Echoes, stearns, paul___irish, CSSWG_LogBot, vhardy, sylvaing, plinss, alexmog,
16:04:05 <Zakim> ... shans, macpherson, isherman, shepazu, pjrm, Hixie, hober, fantasai, Bert, TabAtkins, trackbot
16:04:11 <vhardy_> vhardy_ has joined #css
16:04:53 <krit> Zakim, aagg is vhardy
16:04:57 <Zakim> +Bert
16:05:08 <Zakim> +vhardy; got it
16:05:10 <glazou> plinss is chairing today
16:05:44 <krit> Zakim, vhardy is vhardy_
16:05:44 <Zakim> +vhardy_; got it
16:06:10 <TabAtkins> ScribeNick: TabAtkins 
16:06:16 <TabAtkins> plinss: Last minute items?
16:06:27 <TabAtkins> glazou: Maybe the email about webkit-mask and reflections.
16:06:35 <TabAtkins> glazou: I just read that Ted will submit a proposal to the WG.
16:06:44 <TabAtkins> glazou: But maybe we need to discuss what to do about that.
16:06:51 <TabAtkins> fantasai: I think we did discuss that at some point.
16:07:09 <TabAtkins> vhardy_: I'd like this to be in the FXTF charter, as this is related to SVG as well.
16:07:11 <Zakim> +??P4
16:07:16 <kojiishi> zakim, ??p4 is me
16:07:16 <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
16:07:16 <fantasai> IIRC, we concluded that reflections should be done with filters or some other generic mechanism
16:07:35 <TabAtkins> plinss: Where will it live and how much priority?
16:07:41 <TabAtkins> glazou: we don't need to discuss it right now.
16:07:51 <TabAtkins> plinss: Start with margin-collapsing, then.
16:07:53 <Zakim> + +1.415.766.aahh
16:07:55 <TabAtkins> plinss: Any remaining issues?
16:08:00 <TabAtkins> antonp: One and a half, yes.
16:08:09 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
16:08:19 <TabAtkins> antonp: The one we got halfway through last week...
16:08:24 <TabAtkins> antonp: Is the bug I'm about to paste.
16:08:30 <antonp> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16049
16:08:50 <TabAtkins> antonp: This concerned a note in chapter 10 about min-height and max-height.
16:08:58 <TabAtkins> antonp: It was a confusing note; arron and I came up witha  simpler note.
16:09:04 <TabAtkins> antonp: We just removed most of the ntoe completely.
16:09:05 <Zakim> +ChrisL
16:09:15 <glazou> Zakim, mute ChrisL 
16:09:15 <Zakim> ChrisL should now be muted
16:09:18 <smfr> smfr has joined #css
16:09:19 <TabAtkins> antonp: But fantasai wanted to keep some mention of margin-collapsing in that note.
16:09:33 <TabAtkins> antonp: So she proposed some wording.
16:09:33 <Zakim> -ChrisL
16:09:34 <glazou> ChrisL: sorry, your phone was clicking a lot
16:09:45 <glazou> LOL
16:09:46 <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aaii
16:09:50 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Apr/0101.html
16:09:54 <TabAtkins> antonp: So rather than take her exact wording, I thought we could resolve to somethign similar.
16:09:55 <smfr> Zakim, aaii is me
16:09:55 <Zakim> +smfr; got it
16:10:15 <Zakim> +ChrisL
16:10:20 <antonp> last week fantasai proposed: "for example, margin collapsing is not affected because             based on computed values and not used values"
16:10:23 <glazou> ChrisL: much better
16:10:39 <tantek> scribe: I am attending via IRC only today.
16:10:44 <TabAtkins> antonp: The proposal can be found in that bug report.
16:10:58 <TabAtkins> antonp: Scroll down to the very end of the comments to see the proposal from last week.
16:11:23 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aaa]
16:11:28 <smfr> smfr has joined #css
16:11:28 <TabAtkins> antonp: I'm fine with adding an extra line along the lines of what fantasai proposed, but I'm not entirely happy about her exact wording.
16:11:28 <dstorey> dstorey has joined #css
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16:11:39 <TabAtkins> antonp: I agree that a note about margin-collapsing here could be useful
16:12:00 <TabAtkins> antonp: But if it's needed, it's because the calculation for min/max height need a temporary value of what the computed height is.
16:12:15 <TabAtkins> antonp: And the idea of the note is that you're *nto* supposed to re-think about margin-collapsing when doing the real height.
16:12:18 <fantasai> suggest s/affected/recalculated/
16:12:27 <TabAtkins> antonp: So I'd prefer what I said in note 3.
16:12:48 <Zakim> +??P19
16:12:53 <TabAtkins> antonp: So the full proposal is to take the sentence in comment 2 and the sentence in comment 3 and put them together.
16:13:08 <TabAtkins> antonp: last week we agreed on the comment 2 sentence, but there was some confusion about the comment 3 sentence.
16:13:20 <dstorey> zakim, ??P19 is me
16:13:20 <Zakim> +dstorey; got it
16:13:47 <dbaron> fine with me
16:13:48 <TabAtkins> plinss: I hear no objections.
16:14:15 <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: Accept Anton's edit merging the sentences in comment 2 and 3 in the bug report about margin-collapsing.
16:14:29 <Katie> Katie has joined #css
16:14:38 <antonp> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16037
16:15:02 <TabAtkins> antonp: In this case, we've got an auto-height parent with a large min-height.
16:15:07 <TabAtkins> antonp: And it contains a last-child.
16:15:19 <TabAtkins> antonp: Should there be collapsing between the margin of the last-child and the margin of the parent?
16:15:27 <TabAtkins> antonp: We discussed this in Paris and drew some diagrams.
16:15:42 <TabAtkins> antonp: And we more-or-less agreed that we should do collapsing, even though it seems a bit strange in this case.
16:16:01 <TabAtkins> antonp: It turns out this bug has a relationship to bug 16036 which we discussed last week.
16:16:16 <TabAtkins> antonp: In the comments there's some mention of this, and how it influences the wording we need to use to fix 16037.
16:16:25 <TabAtkins> antonp: The proposal is in comment 5 of the bug report.
16:16:44 <TabAtkins> antonp: This makes things a bit clearer.
16:16:53 <TabAtkins> antonp: It splits the conditions into a list, rather than a long complicated sentence.
16:17:10 <TabAtkins> antonp: In the previous spec it was a complex sentence, but the addition we're making renders it much harder to read.
16:17:29 <TabAtkins> antonp: So hopefully we're achieve the desired effect, which is to say that margin-collapsing does occur between the last child and the bottom margin of the parent in this case.
16:17:35 <TabAtkins> antonp: This is currently part of a giant note.
16:17:59 <TabAtkins> antonp: It was previous normative, but it was recently changed to a note so it could be changed to more readable and comprehensive normative text later.
16:18:34 <TabAtkins> dbaron: So the change is that you're removing the mention of min-height at the beginning of the sentence, and adding a metnion of it in the third bullet?
16:18:37 <TabAtkins> antonp: Yes.
16:18:51 <TabAtkins> antonp: I don't think the current spec is quite wrong, I think it's just overly specific.
16:18:58 <Ms2ger> Ms2ger has joined #css
16:19:03 <TabAtkins> antonp: And because of that, it gives you the impression that you wouldn't collapse in another condition.
16:19:11 <TabAtkins> antonp: And w'ere saying there can be collapsing in another condition as well.
16:19:27 <TabAtkins> antonp: Giving very specific conditions can be misleading if there's a more general rule in actuality.
16:20:08 <TabAtkins> dbaron: Sounds okay to me, though I haven't worked through it in full detail.
16:20:15 <Zakim> +??P5
16:20:20 <Katie> Zakim, who's on the call?
16:20:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see sylvaing, glazou, plinss, [Microsoft], glenn, hober, bradk, SteveZ, TabAtkins, [Microsoft.a], stearns, Molly_Holzschlag, antonp, vhardy_, [Microsoft.aa],
16:20:22 <TabAtkins> plinss: Can this change behavior in some cases?  Do e have testcases?
16:20:23 <Zakim> ... fantasai, ??P53, Bert, kojiishi, dbaron, smfr, ChrisL, [Microsoft.aaa], dstorey, ??P5
16:20:23 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has JohnJansen
16:20:31 <TabAtkins> antonp: I'm not aware of any specific testcases for this.
16:20:52 <Katie> [Microsoft.aa] has Katie
16:20:53 <TabAtkins> antonp: There are testcases around this, but as soon as you get into complex sets of conditions for margin-collapsing, there usually arent' testcases.
16:21:01 <TabAtkins> antonp: I'm all in favor of adding testcases.
16:21:51 <TabAtkins> plinss: I'd like to see testcases for this.
16:22:01 <TabAtkins> antonp: Does that mean you'd like to see a testcase before resolving?
16:22:09 <Katie> zakim, [Microsoft.aa] is katie
16:22:09 <Zakim> +katie; got it
16:22:10 <TabAtkins> plinss: I think so, unless someone really wants to resolve now?
16:22:18 <TabAtkins> mollydotcom: I think that personally if the language is clear, it's fine.
16:22:40 <TabAtkins> mollydotcom: It seems that in what Anton described, that's the behavior that people actually want.
16:23:10 <smfr> TabAtkins++
16:24:01 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I disagree - margin-collapsing is ridiculously complicated, so we need testcases anyway.
16:24:29 <TabAtkins> mollydotcom: I just mean that if the language is clear, it's not required that a testcase appears before we accept the note.
16:24:50 <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: Accept Anton's edit about margin-collapsing of a min-height parent and last-child.
16:25:03 <TabAtkins> antonp: The other issue in the agenda doesn't seem to have priority.  I can postpone.
16:25:10 <TabAtkins> plinss: Sounds good.
16:25:23 <TabAtkins> plinss: Next topic - combining justification and white-space:pre.
16:26:11 <dbaron> ScribeNick: dbaron
16:26:16 <dbaron> Topic: Combining justification and white-space: pre
16:26:33 <dbaron> fantasai: I think this is already resolved because of a decision we made about 2.1 -- should already be in the spec.
16:26:39 <dbaron> TabAtkins: Was it put in the spec more than a month ago?
16:26:53 <dbaron> fantasai: Says in the section on 'text-align': ... reads from spec...
16:27:24 <dbaron> TabAtkins: This does work once that is changed from collapsible to non-collapsible, which means this is fine.
16:27:41 <dbaron> Topic: breaking replaced elements
16:27:44 <dbaron> ScribeNick: TabAtkins 
16:28:09 <TabAtkins> fantasai: I haven't triaged any css3-break issues yet, and rossen's not on the call, so we shoudl defer this issue until the two of us have had a chance to look at it.
16:28:28 <TabAtkins> plinss: Vincent, are you okay with deferring?
16:28:30 <TabAtkins> vhardy_: Yep.
16:28:51 <smfr> url?
16:28:59 <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Mar/0445.html
16:29:00 <dbaron> Topic: Interaction of animation-fill-mode with running/completed animations
16:29:14 <TabAtkins> plinss: Next, interaction of animation-fill-mode with running/completed animations.
16:29:28 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: What happens if the animation-fill-mode is updated after an animation is started or after it's completed?
16:29:38 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: There's some language about snapshotting the values when an animation starts.
16:29:47 <TabAtkins> dbaron: I don't like the whole wording about capturing values.
16:29:51 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: So what do we do then?
16:29:58 <TabAtkins> dbaron: I think this should have an effect either way.
16:30:13 <TabAtkins> dbaron: You have an animation, it starts at some time, and you can compute ...
16:30:24 <TabAtkins> dbaron: The things that have an effect at the time the animation starts are duration, delay, and name.
16:30:35 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: So those you'd treat as if they're snapshotted.
16:30:55 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: So if you ahve a 2s delay, and after 1.5s you update it to a 3s delay, what do you do?
16:31:05 <TabAtkins> dbaron: I think I wrote something about this a year ago, trying to remember.
16:31:07 <Zakim> -ChrisL
16:31:15 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: The snapshotting is simpler from implementation.
16:31:23 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: But if we dont' do it, we still need something clear and predictable.
16:31:35 <TabAtkins> dbaron: My memory of what webkit does is that they snapshot some things, but not as much as the spec says.
16:31:53 <TabAtkins> dbaron: My general issue is that anytime you snapshot, you're exposing more details about when changes occur.
16:32:00 <Zakim> +ChrisL
16:32:19 <TabAtkins> dbaron: So if you set an animation and then change a property about animations, whether it affects the animatino or not depends on how you batch style changes.
16:32:45 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: So what do we do instead?
16:33:05 <TabAtkins> dbaron: I think what I proposed was that you compute a start time for the animation based on when animation-name changes.
16:33:27 <TabAtkins> dbaron: If someone sets play-state to 'paused', while it's paused it moves that time forward.
16:33:36 <TabAtkins> dbaron: But otherwise the only thing you snapshot is that start time.
16:33:51 <TabAtkins> smfr: So you're suggesting that authors can change iteration-count or direction whiel it's running?
16:33:56 <TabAtkins> dbaron: Yes.
16:34:43 <TabAtkins> smfr: If you're halfway through a reverse iteration and you suddenly change animatino-direction, it'll jump.
16:35:42 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: So how does this stop detecting style batching?  You're still in control of when you apply animatino-name.
16:36:02 <TabAtkins> smfr: Were you suggesting that duration is snapshotted as well?
16:36:05 <TabAtkins> dbaron: I dont' thinks o.
16:36:10 <Zakim> +SteveZ.a
16:36:25 <Zakim> -SteveZ
16:36:50 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I think the implication there is that if you're 2s into an animation, and you change duration to 1s, it would automatically end and fire an animationend event.
16:36:56 <TabAtkins> dbaron: Maybe something like that.
16:37:07 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: I think the snapshotting has its downsides, but it's simple and predictable.
16:37:22 <TabAtkins> dbaron: That's not what webkit did - it didn't match the snapshotting.
16:37:33 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: Sure, but we coudl consider that to be a bug.
16:37:52 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: Is this better for authors?
16:38:06 <TabAtkins> smfr: We've had feedback that people want to change animation-duration after the animation ahs started.
16:38:19 <TabAtkins> vhardy_: I also think it's better to have a live model than a snapshot - this is the SMIL model too.
16:39:51 <TabAtkins> [discussion about needing testcases]
16:40:34 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Testing seems to be a red herring - we'll need it anyway. We need to decide between snapshot everything, snapshot some, or snapshot minimum.
16:40:42 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: Current impls dont' quite snapshot everything.
16:40:59 <TabAtkins> smfr: Delay is interesting if you push it forward past the current time.
16:41:14 <TabAtkins> dbaron: I think Gecko snapshots delay.
16:41:23 <TabAtkins> dbaron: We compute a start time, and that involves delay.
16:42:15 <TabAtkins> plinss: To me, it makes sense to let delay change if the animation hasn't started yet, and disallow it if it hasn't.
16:42:40 <TabAtkins> dbaron: And if you set the delay back before the current amount of time delayed, start then or start as if it was delayed there the entire time?
16:42:44 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I think the latter.
16:42:53 <TabAtkins> plinss: So question is snapshot some, or snapshot minimum?
16:43:04 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: Seems that snapshotting less seems reasonable.
16:43:18 <TabAtkins> vhardy_: SMIL's lack of snapshotting is convenient and solves some problems.
16:43:31 <TabAtkins> plinss: Seems reasonable.
16:43:47 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: I think we're agreed not to keep the snapshotting.  Maybe some more discussion about precise details.
16:44:33 <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: Change the animation model to snapshot much less properties. Details of exactly what snapshotting is left TBD.
16:44:54 <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Mar/0418.html
16:44:56 <TabAtkins> Topic: mismatched grid-template strings
16:45:33 <TabAtkins> PhilCupp: I can speak to this.
16:45:41 <TabAtkins> PhilCupp: What happens when strings are shorter than other?
16:45:55 <TabAtkins> PhilCupp: We could consider extending the last character until they're equal length.
16:46:02 <TabAtkins> PhilCupp: But that can create non-rectangular grid cells.
16:46:24 <TabAtkins> PhilCupp: So I suggest we just pad it with empty cells.
16:46:30 <TabAtkins> PhilCupp: I think Bert just responded with the same suggestion.
16:46:37 <TabAtkins> PhilCupp: The second discussion was about non-rectangular regions.
16:46:51 <TabAtkins> PhilCupp: I think there was agreement that it would be useful, but we don't want to add it to the current level of the spec.
16:47:40 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I agree with both of these.
16:48:12 <TabAtkins> antonp: For shorter strings, I'd prefer them to be invalid.
16:48:52 <TabAtkins> PhilCupp: We could do that too.
16:49:11 <TabAtkins> antonp: I think it's good to encourage typing out the periods when you want empty cells, to make it more readable.
16:49:24 <vhardy_> vhardy: agree with antonp
16:49:47 <TabAtkins> plinss: Then we could in the future decide to make mismatched string lengths pad out the last cell, even if it's a non-rectangular region.
16:50:03 <TabAtkins> PhilCupp: I'm okay with that.
16:50:20 <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: Treat both mismatched string lengths and non-rectangular regions as illegal syntax in Grid.
16:50:36 <TabAtkins> Topic: webkit-mask
16:50:57 <TabAtkins> glazou: The WG needs to discuss this because of the f2f discussions in paris.
16:51:10 <TabAtkins> glazou: I spent roughly 20 minutes today looking for sites using this in production. It's spreading fast.
16:51:18 <fantasai> http://robert.ocallahan.org/2008/06/applying-svg-effects-to-html-content_04.html
16:51:19 <TabAtkins> glazou: I'd like to avoid the clash we had in Paris for other properties.
16:51:41 <TabAtkins> glazou: I heard the message from one brwoser vendor that the charis didn't jump on the proeprties implemented by one browser and spreading, so let's do this.
16:51:43 <ChrisL> q+
16:52:09 <TabAtkins> fantasai: We had a discussion about these proeprties before, and our conclusion was not to have new properties for masking and reflection, but rather to use the existing SVG properties for this.
16:52:41 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Agreed.  Looking at this blog post, it seems Maciej didn't like or understand them.
16:52:51 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: And we can extend this in the future.
16:53:05 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Such as using one color channel in an image, or something like that.
16:53:12 <vhardy_> q+
16:53:21 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: So using SVG's seems to be a more workable approach and has a longer implementation history.
16:53:51 <TabAtkins> glazou: There's a trend about webkit-mask today.
16:54:03 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: But if we do this now, SVG will have to support both of them now.
16:54:09 <TabAtkins> ack ChrisL 
16:54:28 <fantasai> plinss++
16:54:29 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: We've had this confusion before, and we'd like to avoid it if possible.
16:54:50 <TabAtkins> plinss: We do need to address this, but that' snot necessarily by introducing these proeprties per se.
16:54:58 <TabAtkins> ack vhardy_ 
16:55:15 <TabAtkins> vhardy_: Some of the uses I saw was people using masks to fill text with a gradient.  Is that what you saw?
16:55:20 <plinss> ack mollydotcom
16:55:24 <TabAtkins> glazou: Most of what I saw was masks on images.
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16:55:54 <TabAtkins> mollydotcom: Once again we see a webkit property proliferating, so I agree with Daniel that we need to address it.  Just saying "here's SVG" won't win the day.
16:56:20 <TabAtkins> mollydotcom: We should sync with SVG, but the demand is already here and needs syntax that people understand (CSS, not SVG).
16:56:28 <glazou> +1
16:56:33 <glazou> unfortunately
16:56:50 <vhardy_> fantasai++
16:56:55 <TabAtkins> fantasai: The proposal is to take a property that SVG already has and say "you can use it on HTML too".
16:57:21 <smfr> applying a mask should not require typing angle brackets
16:57:32 <TabAtkins> mollydotcom: Once the precedent is widely created, how do we turn back?
16:57:35 <fantasai> instead of inventing a new property that does something that's almost the same as something we have
16:58:04 <smfr> what is the proposal?
16:58:15 <JohnJansen> I think this boils down to something being implemented in webkit, but no one brings that to the WG to get it standardized. It would be good to have a process other than "I've heard of this new thing in webkit..." who owns bringing something to the WG?
16:58:16 <glazou> TabAtkins: the two of you are difficult to listen to :-)
16:58:21 <fantasai> http://people.mozilla.com/~roc/SVG-CSS-Effects-Draft.html
16:58:35 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: You don't need to point to SVG.  The property lets you point to an image.
16:58:55 <fantasai> JohnJansen: it was brought to the WG. And the WG decided to go with roc's approach.
16:59:14 <fantasai> JohnJansen: but nothing happened, so now people are panicking
16:59:29 <dbaron> and then there's also http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-css3-images-20120112/#element-reference
16:59:40 <dbaron> which we just decided to remove
16:59:48 <smfr> dbaron: that's certainly relevant for reflections
16:59:49 <Zakim> -SteveZ.a
16:59:54 <dbaron> smfr, yes
17:00:00 <sylvaing> JohnJansen: yes, this is not a new random thing.
17:00:16 <TabAtkins> krit: 'mask' actually needs to point to a <mask> element.
17:00:21 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: And that's not cool. :/
17:00:43 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: We could use the same simplifying technique we used with 'filter' to make it CSS-friendly.
17:00:48 <TabAtkins> plinss: In general that's okay.
17:00:49 <JohnJansen> fantasai, sylvaing: I realize that... where is the proposal, though?
17:01:00 <sylvaing> John: see links posted above
17:01:12 <TabAtkins> plinss: So could someone propose a clean CSS syntax for this?
17:01:34 <TabAtkins> hober: I can write up what webkit currently does, but I'm not sure I'm the best person to harmonize with SVG.
17:01:41 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins and vhardy_: We can help.
17:01:45 <Zakim> -bradk
17:01:53 <fantasai> dbaron: we didn't decide to remove it, we decided to defer it
17:02:11 <bradk> sorry. Gots to go.
17:02:26 <TabAtkins> glazou: And reflections.
17:02:38 <Zakim> -stearns
17:02:44 <Zakim> -vhardy_
17:02:45 <glazou> ok
17:03:03 <TabAtkins> dbaron: We had something - the element() property - that would have allowed reflections, but we decided to defer it a few weeks ago.
17:03:06 <Zakim> -ChrisL
17:03:08 <Zakim> -smfr
17:03:10 <TabAtkins> s/property/function/
17:03:10 <Zakim> -glazou
17:03:12 <dbaron> s/property/value/
17:03:12 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
17:03:13 <Zakim> -dbaron
17:03:13 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
17:03:14 <Zakim> -kojiishi
17:03:14 <Zakim> -hober
17:03:14 <Zakim> -sylvaing
17:03:14 <antonp> antonp has left #css
17:03:15 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aaa]
17:03:17 <Zakim> -plinss
17:03:22 <Zakim> -Molly_Holzschlag
17:03:23 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:03:25 <Zakim> -TabAtkins
17:03:27 <Zakim> -glenn
17:03:29 <Zakim> -dstorey
17:03:29 <glazou> plinss: tty in an hour for the other call
17:03:31 <Zakim> -Bert
17:03:37 <Zakim> -??P5
17:03:38 <Zakim> -??P53
17:03:47 <plinss> glazou: yep
17:03:48 <fantasai> Bert: I forgot to check in the image for b&b
17:03:52 <fantasai> Bert: it's done now
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17:04:15 <Zakim> -katie
17:04:16 <Bert> Thanks, Elika!
17:04:18 <Zakim> -antonp
17:04:19 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:04:19 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.206.324.aaaa, sylvaing, glazou, plinss, glenn, +1.619.846.aabb, hober, +1.650.766.aacc, SteveZ, bradk, +1.650.253.aadd, TabAtkins, arronei, +1.206.550.aaee,
17:04:19 <Zakim> ... stearns, Molly_Holzschlag, +93550aaff, antonp, +1.415.832.aagg, [Microsoft], fantasai, JohnJansen, Bert, vhardy_, kojiishi, +1.415.766.aahh, dbaron, ChrisL, +1.408.636.aaii,
17:04:19 <Zakim> ... smfr, dstorey, katie
17:04:30 <Bert> You regenerated Overview.html as well?
17:04:47 <fantasai> yep
17:04:48 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-background/#corner-shaping
17:04:59 <fantasai> Bert: I also tweaked the note a bit more to make it clearer
17:05:08 <fantasai> Bert: I roped a friend into reviewing it for me :)
17:05:25 <fantasai> Bert: Hopefully it's better now
17:07:13 <Bert> Looks good.
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17:12:37 <fantasai> TabAtkins: we should hang out sometime soon and go through all the values issues
17:12:44 <fantasai> TabAtkins: and maybe plot our next conquest
17:13:14 <TabAtkins> kk
17:13:22 <TabAtkins> I'm logging some issues now.  There are several.
17:13:29 <fantasai> indeed
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17:26:31 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Our testsuite for V&U is going to have to involve us using calc() and attr() in *every single location* they can possibly be used in.
17:35:39 <krit> TabAtkins: espexially for relative values :)
17:36:53 <Ms2ger> Actually, shouldn't your nick be krid?
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17:43:19 <gsnedders> TabAtkins: location in the grammar or every possible property?
17:43:36 <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Every property, as much as we can do.
17:43:52 <TabAtkins> There are many places in the grammar where it's not allowed.
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18:00:16 <TabAtkins> Hm, I can't find the email with instructions on what to call for the director.
18:00:25 <TabAtkins> plinss fantasai ?
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18:04:13 <TabAtkins> Actually, I've found the email that talks about it, and it simply has no information.  I have no idea who I'm supposed to call.
18:07:37 <TabAtkins> plinss: fantasai: ?_?
18:08:14 <plinss> TabAtkins: sorry, I'm not catching the context of your question
18:08:36 <TabAtkins> The call with the director is supposed to happen at 6pm GMT today.  Which is 8 minutes ago.
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18:10:49 <TabAtkins> So... should we be in a conf call right now with TimBL or not?
18:12:57 <plinss> ah, the images cr transition? we're doing that now, don't think we need you at this point
18:13:11 <TabAtkins> Oh.  I thought editors were needed on the call.
18:13:28 <plinss> generally not, unless there's something contentious 
18:13:51 <TabAtkins> Okay.  glazou reminded me of it, so I wasn't sure.
18:13:53 <TabAtkins> Carry on then.
18:14:36 <plinss> it's good if you're on standby in case we need you, but generally the chairs and staff contacts take care of it
18:17:43 <sylvaing> If you're 8mn late on a TimBL call I'd guess you've probably missed the whole thing...
18:18:07 <sylvaing> that's like 72 minutes of mere mortal speech
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23:01:33 <leaverou> fantasai: you there?
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