16:58:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #text
16:58:25 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/10-text-irc
16:58:31 <Judy> zakim, room for 10?
16:58:33 <Zakim> ok, Judy; conference Team_(text)16:58Z scheduled with code 2119 (A11Y) for 60 minutes until 1758Z
16:58:39 <Judy> Chair: Judy
16:59:02 <Zakim> Team_(text)16:58Z has now started
16:59:09 <Zakim> +John_Foliot
16:59:25 <LeifHSilli> LeifHSilli has joined #text
16:59:57 <Judy> Meeting: HTML-A11Y Text Alternatives Sub-Team Meeting
17:00:15 <Judy> agenda+ updates on this week's coordination with HTML WG Co-Chairs
17:00:16 <Judy> agenda+ alt bugs: update on HTML5 in-spec alt guidance bugs--gathering, explaining, rechecking whole doc
17:00:16 <Judy> agenda+ buggy alts: update on checking alt texts in HTML5 spec itself
17:00:16 <Judy> agenda+ issue 204: re-alignment of HTML5 spec text about ARIA with actual ARIA provisions
17:00:16 <Judy> agenda+ issue 30: reminder of longdesc steps following issue 204 resolution 
17:00:16 <Judy> agenda+ issue 203: why a specific CP is needed now regardless of issue 30 dependency
17:00:18 <Judy> agenda+ meta-name generator update
17:00:21 <Judy> agenda+ confirm issue status at http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Accessibility_Change_Proposal_Status 
17:00:22 <Judy> agenda+ other business?
17:00:25 <Judy> agenda+ confirm next meeting; identify next scribe; adjourn
17:01:04 <Zakim> +??P2
17:01:20 <Zakim> +??P3
17:01:41 <janina> zakim, ??P3 is Janina
17:01:41 <Zakim> +Janina; got it
17:02:03 <JF_> JF_ has joined #text
17:02:06 <janina> zakim, ??P2 is Leif
17:02:06 <Zakim> +Leif; got it
17:03:58 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald
17:04:18 <Zakim> +Judy
17:05:47 <David> David has joined #text
17:07:21 <janina> scribe: janina
17:07:29 <janina> zakim, take up item 1
17:07:29 <Zakim> agendum 1. "updates on this week's coordination with HTML WG Co-Chairs" taken up [from Judy]
17:08:48 <janina> jb: Reviewing today's agenda ...
17:09:00 <janina> jb: We met with chairs again ...
17:09:23 <janina> jb: Also want to coordinate with individuals here, Leif, perhaps Laura, if she's able to join at some point
17:09:49 <janina> jb: John, re 204 before John needs to leave ...
17:10:01 <janina> jb: Metaname ...
17:11:15 <janina> jb: Want to be sure to mention that I'm encouraged by our coordination calls with the HTML WG Chairs, I think it's helping us make progress
17:11:52 <janina> jb: Everything still needs to follow the WG Decision Policy, of course, but coordination helps with understanding and expectations
17:12:14 <janina> jb: One topic was I-203 ...
17:14:06 <janina> jb: We discussed I-203, they're trying to be flexible and work with us, but need a "usable" cp asap
17:14:47 <janina> jb: Also discussed I-204 and what they still need on that
17:15:50 <Judy> zakim, who's on the phone?
17:15:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Foliot, Leif, Janina, David_MacDonald, Judy
17:15:50 <janina> jb: At the moment Text Subteam has more issues, with trickier coordinations, but we do seem to make progress everytime we talk
17:15:53 <janina> zakim, next item
17:15:53 <Zakim> agendum 2. "alt bugs: update on HTML5 in-spec alt guidance bugs--gathering, explaining, rechecking whole doc" taken up [from Judy]
17:19:53 <janina> js: Expect to be done with review by this meeting next week
17:20:01 <janina> leif: Will help as I can
17:20:08 <janina> zakim, next item
17:20:08 <Zakim> agendum 3. "buggy alts: update on checking alt texts in HTML5 spec itself" taken up [from Judy]
17:20:28 <janina> js: This is thanks to Leif for identifying images we should check
17:21:46 <janina> leif: Think have found a few I wonder about
17:22:16 <janina> jb: Perhaps we should have someone do this who lives and breathes alt, David?
17:22:18 <janina> dm: Yes
17:22:29 <JF_> +Q
17:23:33 <janina> jf: We also need to make sure we're consistent with Steve's authored Alt doc
17:23:36 <janina> jb: yes
17:24:00 <janina> jb: So, David, you can give feedback and check that we're in sync with the Alt doc?
17:24:04 <janina> dm: Yes
17:24:55 <janina> zakim, next item
17:24:55 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, janina
17:25:01 <janina> ack jf
17:25:01 <Judy> ack jf
17:25:04 <janina> zakim, next item
17:25:04 <Zakim> agendum 4. "issue 204: re-alignment of HTML5 spec text about ARIA with actual ARIA provisions" taken up [from Judy]
17:25:40 <janina> jb: Noting that Rich posted to list yesterday about this, terse but on topic
17:27:29 <janina> js: ARIA believes it has finished rewrite of hidden section in ARIA doc esp UAIG 5.1.2
17:27:43 <JF_> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/204
17:28:49 <janina> jb: Is 204 simply allowing ARIA to point to hidden content?
17:28:55 <janina> js: As I see it, yes
17:29:35 <janina> jb: It's an issue to be concerned about whether HTML is defining ARIA here, but it's not appropriate for a CP to address that
17:31:11 <David> scribe: David
17:32:53 <laura> laura has joined #text
17:33:54 <David> jb: john concerned that one w3c group speaking on another (HTML 5 on WAI ARIA) doesn't need change proposal... 2nd... they didn't get what was being proposed... do a realignment propsal, not a change proposal (we could add to bottom of change proposal, note that it was a change propsoal on another spec, not welcome, not appropriate)by chair of that group
17:34:04 <Zakim> +Laura_Carlson
17:35:19 <David> jb: invites John and Janina to talk about 204... 
17:35:56 <David> jf: willing to concede process question... 
17:38:16 <David> jf: problem here. choice of word hidden... but there is hidden (DOM) and hidden from view, but in DOM... CSS:non WAI AIRA Hidden, and and hidden not in DOM, but there is a way to tuck it out of site (CSS, aria described by in flow, but has usability problems)
17:39:47 <David> LAURA: the spec should have some author guidance if there is ...
17:40:48 <David> jf: nothing in Matts change proposal about the distinction 
17:41:50 <David> janina: I will write a change proposal, will JF pull yours for now
17:42:10 <David> JF:  yes I'll will pull it...
17:42:48 <David> jb: I'll will withdraw mine as soon as you put in yours, concerned about timing
17:42:58 <David> jf: we have until the 18th
17:43:47 <David> janina: a sentence in 7.1 that uses an exampe on Aria Describedby... I'll ask to have that removed... that's the part of the speck that talks about hidden
17:44:34 <David> janina: user agent guide, we got the language right we think, covers everything, please check it...
17:45:51 <David> jf: we need better author guidance
17:46:05 <David> jb: can we move to next item
17:47:36 <David> topic: longdesc... discussion convoluted, complicated, but in the discussions, people are coming up with creative ideas on what it could do
17:48:11 <David> djb: do we pursue these ideas, or do we just stick with one clear direction, and talk about html.next 
17:48:23 <David> s/djb/jb
17:49:12 <JF_> +Q
17:49:34 <David> jb: temptations to extend it, Laura has a new issue request, tying to longdesc dependency... lief had an idea from last week...
17:49:44 <janina> q+
17:49:51 <David> jf: want to add direct relation to 203 video
17:50:07 <laura> q+
17:50:39 <David> jb: 203 was on the table a long time ago...
17:53:07 <David> Janina: great questions, need to work through it, some for native solution, some think aria betr place for that... but we still don't have anything, not longdesc or describedAt, etc... we wasted lots of time, all this effort to put basic minimum back it.
17:53:23 <David> janina, neet to just get Longdesc back
17:53:50 <David> leif, i don't have anything on agenda, i withdrew my proposal
17:54:07 <David> leif, lets just focus on Longdesc on image for now
17:54:43 <laura> I am not proposing postponing Issue-30. I am proposing resolving Issue 30 first.
17:54:48 <laura> 1. It is impossible to expand/modify an attribute if that attribute is obsolete.
17:54:55 <laura> 2. The HTML Chairs caused the delay of reinstating that attribute.
17:55:02 <laura> The HTML Chairs are responsible for the predicament. 
17:55:12 <David> laura: not proposing postponning Longdesc, let's resolve it and then talk about extending longdesc
17:55:19 <David> jb: no time
17:55:45 <David> Laura: not my problem, I didn't make this situation
17:56:52 <David> jb: it's both our problems, but this is a new feature request after 
17:57:00 <JF_> +Q
17:57:22 <David> going into last call...
17:57:37 <David> Laura: I'm ready now. 
17:57:56 <David> jb: a consensus?
17:58:00 <Judy> ack jf
17:58:03 <Judy> ack janina
17:58:07 <Judy> ack leif
17:58:10 <Judy> ack laura
17:58:14 <JF_> +Q
17:58:15 <Judy> q+ jf
17:58:21 <Judy> ack jf
17:59:12 <David> Janina: we have a few things where we are not clear on, such as two longsecs on a media
17:59:22 <laura> bye. gotta go now.
17:59:24 <David> jb: maybe second last call...
17:59:30 <Zakim> -Laura_Carlson
17:59:49 <Judy> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:59:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Foliot, Leif, Janina, David_MacDonald, Judy
18:00:15 <David> jb: door is closed on this phase
18:02:18 <David> jb: while it is not uncommon in other spec to have additional features... it is possible to do a second last call... 1) barn door on new features OR 2)  no features... 
18:03:03 <Judy> ...or 3) various things creeping in from various people
18:04:07 <David> Jb: Longdesc possibilities = would like to use longdesc or described at (it's on question) need to get all requirements....another thing is can we use exisitng longdesc.... but we cannot use for 203, because one isn't enough... how do we technically manage that be able to Summary, 
18:04:36 <David> we could use longdesc on iframes, and summary (tables) 
18:05:06 <David> jb: wasn't longdesc on summary rejected 
18:05:28 <David> janina: yes, but we need post its
18:06:45 <David> jf: because summary attribute was rejected we though longdesc could be used... could be added to a number of things (iframes, tables etc...) on one hnd, need to make sure we have longdesc, but we need to do them both... 
18:06:59 <David> jf: we are boxed in because 30 has been in limbo
18:08:25 <David> q+
18:08:38 <David> ak JF_
18:08:38 <JF_> ack JF
18:11:17 <Judy> q?
18:12:04 <David> jb: let's park the extension of Longdesc
18:12:57 <JF_> ack Leif
18:13:02 <JF_> ack David
18:13:34 <janina> dm: We should certainly address additional use of longdesc if another last call
18:16:02 <David> jb: want to queue up proposal ... can John 203, longdecription of poster of video
18:16:33 <JF_>   * Short name (AccName) for the video  - perhaps @alt, or aria-labelledby
18:16:35 <JF_> or aria-label.
18:16:36 <JF_>   * Long Description (a.k.a. contextual description) for the VIDEO - perhaps
18:16:38 <JF_> @longdesc, or aria-describedby or aria-describedat.
18:16:39 <JF_>   * Long Description (a.k.a. contextual description) for the IMAGE (when
18:16:41 <JF_> specified by @poster) - I have proposed <firstframe> a.k.a. <poster> which
18:16:42 <JF_> was rejected; currently in discussion with the ARIA WG on an aria-poster or
18:16:44 <JF_> aria-background attribute.
18:16:45 <JF_>   * A linking mechanism for the verbatim transcript - I have proposed
18:16:47 <JF_> @transcript and/or <track kind="transcript">.
18:17:30 <janina> q+
18:19:43 <David> Janina: drop 203 transcript can we deffer to HTML.next so the separate poster catch... covered by aria
18:20:22 <David> janina, can we get change proposal with short descp and longdesc, (as outcome of longdesc)
18:20:30 <David> jf: that's a dependency
18:20:46 <David> jf: would like to see alt added to video
18:20:56 <David> janina, what's the recommendation
18:22:21 <David> dm: don't think we should pursue @alt on video
18:22:47 <David> janina: allow longdesc to go on video
18:23:09 <David> janina, but needs dependecy on issue 30
18:23:38 <David> jf: i don't know if that's the right way... 
18:25:16 <David> jf: question is does longdesc belong in HTML 5...  if LD chucked out then 203 
18:25:42 <David> jf: would be chucked out
18:26:47 <Judy> agenda?
18:28:15 <David> jb: another way to phrase it... chairs asking for something straightforward let's give to them
18:29:52 <David> jb: need to place dependency... on 30
18:31:10 <David> jf: concerned that it will look like Laura's proposal to extend longdesc ... concerned chairs will try to deal with this before 30 and say "longdesc is not part of spec so nothing to talk about"
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18:33:15 <David> jb: can't guarantee it wouldn't get screwed up, but as of yesterday, chairs would like to come up with solution, if we don't make this fix to 203 it might get closed...
18:34:22 <David> jb: I have two things  1) rewrite 203, 2) wait for Janina on 204, 
18:34:54 <Zakim> -John_Foliot
18:35:06 <David> jb: can't guarantee  would like to come up with solution, if we don't make this fix to 203 it might get closed...
18:35:37 <Judy> s/jb: can't guarantee it wouldn't get screwed up, but as of yesterday, chairs would like to come up with solution, if we don't make this fix to 203 it might get closed...//
18:35:57 <Judy> zakim, who's here?
18:35:57 <Zakim> On the phone I see Leif, Janina, David_MacDonald, Judy
18:35:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see JF_, David, LeifHSilli, RRSAgent, Zakim, Judy, janina
18:36:22 <Zakim> -Leif
18:36:23 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
18:39:38 <Zakim> -Judy
18:39:44 <Zakim> -Janina
18:39:45 <Zakim> Team_(text)16:58Z has ended
18:39:45 <Zakim> Attendees were John_Foliot, Janina, Leif, David_MacDonald, Judy, Laura_Carlson
18:39:51 <janina> zakim, bye
18:39:51 <Zakim> Zakim has left #text
18:40:03 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
18:40:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/10-text-minutes.html janina
18:41:36 <janina> rrsagent, make log public
18:41:45 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
18:41:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/10-text-minutes.html janina
18:43:24 <Judy> Judy has left #text