IRC log of eval on 2012-04-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:48:49 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #eval
13:48:49 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:48:51 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:48:51 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #eval
13:48:53 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 3825
13:48:53 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
13:48:54 [trackbot]
Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference
13:48:54 [trackbot]
Date: 05 April 2012
13:53:24 [Detlev]
Detlev has joined #eval
13:54:51 [Kathy]
Kathy has joined #eval
13:55:48 [Zakim]
WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has now started
13:55:55 [Zakim]
+ +1.978.443.aaaa
13:56:17 [vivienne]
vivienne has joined #eval
13:56:21 [Zakim]
+ +31.30.239.aabb
13:56:28 [Kathy]
zakim, aaaa is Kathy
13:56:28 [Zakim]
+Kathy; got it
13:56:30 [Zakim]
13:56:45 [MartijnHoutepen]
MartijnHoutepen has joined #eval
13:57:01 [shadi]
zakim, aabb is Martijn
13:57:01 [Zakim]
+Martijn; got it
13:57:34 [Zakim]
13:57:38 [vivienne]
zakim, P11 is me
13:57:38 [Zakim]
sorry, vivienne, I do not recognize a party named 'P11'
13:57:48 [vivienne]
zakim, ??P11 is me
13:57:48 [Zakim]
+vivienne; got it
13:58:38 [shadi]
zakim, pick a victim
13:58:45 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Martijn
13:58:48 [ericvelleman]
ericvelleman has joined #eval
13:59:13 [Zakim]
+ +1.520.271.aacc
13:59:30 [shadi]
zakim, aacc is Don
13:59:37 [Zakim]
+Don; got it
13:59:53 [Zakim]
+ +31.30.239.aadd
13:59:56 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, mute me
14:00:00 [Zakim]
sorry, MartijnHoutepen, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:00:15 [shadi]
zakim, aadd is Eric
14:00:15 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, Martijn is really MartijnHoutepen
14:00:24 [Zakim]
+Eric; got it
14:00:25 [Zakim]
+MartijnHoutepen; got it
14:00:29 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, mute me
14:00:31 [Zakim]
+ +1.978.562.aaee
14:00:38 [Zakim]
MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
14:00:43 [shadi]
zakim, aaee is Moe
14:00:43 [Zakim]
+Moe; got it
14:00:47 [Zakim]
+ +49.404.318.aaff
14:01:17 [Detlev]
Zakim, aff is Detlev
14:01:21 [shadi]
zakim, aaff Detlev
14:01:25 [Zakim]
sorry, Detlev, I do not recognize a party named 'aff'
14:01:30 [Sarah_Swierenga]
Sarah_Swierenga has joined #eval
14:01:34 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'aaff Detlev', shadi
14:01:36 [shadi]
scribe: Martijn
14:01:38 [korn]
korn has joined #eval
14:01:42 [Detlev]
zakim, aaff is Detlev
14:01:43 [shadi]
scribenick: MartijnHoutepen
14:02:01 [Zakim]
+Detlev; got it
14:02:24 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
14:02:29 [Zakim]
+ +1.517.353.aagg
14:02:33 [Kathy]
zakim, mute me
14:02:45 [shadi]
ack me
14:02:51 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
14:02:52 [vivienne]
zakim, mute me
14:02:57 [Zakim]
+ +1.517.432.aahh
14:03:00 [Zakim]
Kathy should now be muted
14:03:03 [vivienne]
zakim, mute me
14:03:09 [Detlev]
zakim, mute me
14:03:13 [Zakim]
vivienne should now be muted
14:03:20 [vivienne]
shadi, are our logins mixed up?
14:03:21 [Zakim]
vivienne was already muted, vivienne
14:03:25 [Zakim]
Detlev should now be muted
14:03:32 [Mike_Elledge]
Mike_Elledge has joined #eval
14:03:33 [shadi]
zakim, aagg is Sarah
14:03:39 [Zakim]
+Sarah; got it
14:03:43 [shadi]
zakim, aahh is Mike
14:03:49 [Zakim]
+Mike; got it
14:04:10 [MartijnHoutepen]
Eric: Welcome, we have some new members, Peter Korn, Moe,
14:04:25 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
14:04:27 [Zakim]
14:04:45 [shadi]
zakim, oracle is Peter
14:05:00 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
14:05:30 [Zakim]
+Peter; got it
14:05:39 [MartijnHoutepen]
Moe: I work at IBM accessibility center, consulting, training & testing accessibility
14:07:22 [MartijnHoutepen]
Peter: Oracle accessibility architect, originally from Sun, interested in WCAG/W3C and section 508
14:07:48 [shadi]
ack me
14:08:02 [shadi]
14:10:28 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
14:10:48 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
14:11:37 [MartijnHoutepen]
Eric: looking at public comments mail archive, only 2 received
14:12:14 [MartijnHoutepen]
E: maybe more to the end of april
14:12:34 [Zakim]
+ +1.703.272.aaii
14:13:00 [shadi]
zakim, aaii is Katie
14:13:00 [Zakim]
+Katie; got it
14:13:18 [MartijnHoutepen]
E: If we have a lot of comments we will need a system to work on the comments, if it is not to much we will use a plain html table
14:13:56 [Ryladog]
Ryladog has joined #eval
14:14:36 [MartijnHoutepen]
E: we will start working on document as is, after 27th april we will process comments
14:14:58 [MartijnHoutepen]
E: hope to have a new draft in 2 months
14:16:39 [MartijnHoutepen]
E: new editor draft not yet up, need more input to fill section 4 and 5, discussion on the list on section headings
14:16:59 [ericvelleman]
14:17:33 [shadi]
14:18:57 [MartijnHoutepen]
E: discussion on assistive technology on the list, input needed on step 4a check for the Broadest Variety of Use Cases
14:19:21 [Ryladog]
14:19:51 [ericvelleman]
14:20:04 [shadi]
ack Ryladog
14:20:58 [EvalTF]
EvalTF has joined #eval
14:21:26 [MartijnHoutepen]
Katie: start by identifying primary use case, there may be more purposes beyond that,
14:21:32 [shadi]
14:21:37 [korn]
14:21:47 [Moe]
Moe has joined #eval
14:21:59 [shadi]
ack me
14:22:06 [MartijnHoutepen]
Katie: after primary use case define broadest variety
14:22:51 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
14:22:51 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
14:22:51 [MartijnHoutepen]
shadi: step4a relates to 1d, is it internal or public or mobile site, also relates 2b where we select key functionalities
14:23:02 [MartijnHoutepen]
Katie: refer to those sections
14:23:19 [shadi]
ak peter
14:23:25 [shadi]
ack peter
14:23:31 [shadi]
ack korn
14:23:34 [Mike_Elledge]
14:23:52 [Kathy]
14:24:06 [MartijnHoutepen]
Peter: what does use case mean when we shift from website to webapplication? is styling in an online texteditor a use case?
14:24:24 [ericvelleman]
14:25:46 [MartijnHoutepen]
Katie: could you phrase this as a question in the steps?
14:26:58 [shadi]
14:28:04 [MartijnHoutepen]
Peter: i am worried on how this translates to webapplications, some accessibility issues are less important than others, but can be critical in (non-)conformance
14:29:47 [MartijnHoutepen]
Peter: maybe reporting could include impact of problems
14:31:00 [shadi]
ack mike
14:31:44 [Detlev]
14:32:09 [MartijnHoutepen]
Mike: should we be considering different use scenarios?
14:33:42 [Detlev]
'scenario' could be quite confusing - sounds close to 'use case'
14:34:05 [Kathy]
ack me
14:34:24 [MartijnHoutepen]
E: @mike could you elaborate on the difference between scenarios and use cases on the list
14:35:25 [Detlev]
14:36:03 [MartijnHoutepen]
Kathy: user stories more important in agile development model, we need to be careful to explain all flavours of user stories
14:36:48 [shadi]
ack me
14:36:59 [Kathy]
zakim, mute me
14:36:59 [Zakim]
Kathy should now be muted
14:38:35 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
14:38:35 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
14:38:59 [MartijnHoutepen]
shadi: I like this direction. To go back to Peters case: accessibility issues are the same on websites or webapplications,
14:39:30 [MartijnHoutepen]
shadi: we shouldn't make the difference, up to manager to read into findings
14:40:38 [Detlev]
14:40:39 [MartijnHoutepen]
peter: features of an application are different then the distuingishment between use cases,
14:41:45 [MartijnHoutepen]
Eric: would be interesting for evaluators to have a method to define primary use case
14:41:52 [ericvelleman]
14:41:54 [Detlev]
ack me
14:42:50 [Ryladog]
14:43:10 [MartijnHoutepen]
Detlev: issue on claiming conformance using this methodology, similar problem arises when sampling
14:43:40 [MartijnHoutepen]
D: all features of an application are part of the use case of using the application
14:44:32 [MartijnHoutepen]
D: I think it is benificial to claim conformance while not being totally conformant, if you point out the issues
14:45:28 [MartijnHoutepen]
Eric: not up to evaluator to decide if error is important, this is up to the manager
14:46:22 [MartijnHoutepen]
D: you will then never reach conformance
14:47:08 [Detlev]
Zakim, mute me
14:47:08 [Zakim]
Detlev should now be muted
14:47:22 [MartijnHoutepen]
Katie: we need to identify what was accessible and what wasn't, conformance claim will point to what has been evaluated
14:47:46 [Detlev]
14:48:05 [Detlev]
ack me
14:48:05 [korn]
14:48:17 [shadi]
ack ryla
14:48:20 [MartijnHoutepen]
K: dependent of company to say: we will be compliant or not. For websites it is important to be precise
14:48:50 [MartijnHoutepen]
D: can you then leave out parts of the website?
14:49:47 [MartijnHoutepen]
D: in a application you couldn't conform because there are too much options to choose
14:50:22 [Detlev]
Zakim, mute me
14:50:22 [Zakim]
Detlev should now be muted
14:50:23 [ericvelleman]
14:50:37 [MartijnHoutepen]
Katie: yes, if you don't evaluate the whole page you can't claim anything
14:51:32 [MartijnHoutepen]
Peter: some website parts are highly dynamics, different data may give different pages and different outcomes of an evaluation
14:53:37 [MartijnHoutepen]
Peter: If the application is too big, the application may be changed while testing
14:54:40 [MartijnHoutepen]
Eric: we have to define boundaries in dynamic websites/applications
14:55:10 [MartijnHoutepen]
Eric: we will focus on a ready product, which we will evaluate
14:55:48 [Ryladog]
Sorry have to leave early
14:55:57 [Zakim]
14:56:44 [ericvelleman]
14:56:46 [shadi]
14:56:48 [MartijnHoutepen]
Peter: in reporting we can introduce terms/adjectives separate from conformance (f.e. substantial conformance)
14:56:50 [shadi]
ack korn
14:57:44 [Detlev]
thins something like 'substantial conformance' would be a useful concept
14:59:11 [shadi]
ack me
15:00:54 [MartijnHoutepen]
shadi: if in testing things change, how can determine accessibility, in the documentation y/n is a minimum, but there is optional additional performances scores (section 5d)
15:02:54 [MartijnHoutepen]
eric: new methodology will be up soon (tuesday),
15:03:00 [Zakim]
15:03:35 [MartijnHoutepen]
Eric: more discussion on wrinkles proposed by Peter
15:03:50 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, unmute me
15:03:52 [Mike_Elledge]
15:04:06 [vivienne]
15:04:08 [MartijnHoutepen]
15:04:12 [ericvelleman]
ericvelleman has left #eval
15:04:19 [MartijnHoutepen]
MartijnHoutepen has left #eval
15:04:30 [Zakim]
MartijnHoutepen should no longer be muted
15:04:42 [Zakim]
15:05:03 [Zakim]
15:05:07 [Zakim]
15:05:15 [Zakim]
15:05:21 [Zakim]
15:05:23 [Zakim]
15:05:33 [Zakim]
15:05:59 [Zakim]
15:06:01 [Zakim]
15:06:31 [Zakim]
15:06:36 [korn]
korn has left #eval
15:06:37 [Zakim]
WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has ended
15:06:41 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.978.443.aaaa, +31.30.239.aabb, Kathy, Shadi, vivienne, +1.520.271.aacc, Don, +31.30.239.aadd, Eric, MartijnHoutepen, +1.978.562.aaee, Moe, +49.404.318.aaff,
15:06:44 [Zakim]
... Detlev, +1.517.353.aagg, +1.517.432.aahh, Sarah, Mike, Peter, +1.703.272.aaii, Katie
15:13:28 [Moe]
Moe has left #eval
15:45:40 [shadi]
tarckbot, end meeting
15:45:51 [shadi]
trackbot, end meeting
15:45:51 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
15:45:51 [Zakim]
sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
15:45:59 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:45:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
15:46:00 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
15:46:00 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items