13:48:49 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #eval
13:48:49 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/05-eval-irc
13:48:51 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:48:51 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #eval
13:48:53 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3825
13:48:53 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
13:48:54 <trackbot> Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference
13:48:54 <trackbot> Date: 05 April 2012
13:53:24 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #eval
13:54:51 <Kathy> Kathy has joined #eval
13:55:48 <Zakim> WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has now started
13:55:55 <Zakim> + +1.978.443.aaaa
13:56:17 <vivienne> vivienne has joined #eval
13:56:21 <Zakim> + +31.30.239.aabb
13:56:28 <Kathy> zakim, aaaa is Kathy
13:56:28 <Zakim> +Kathy; got it
13:56:30 <Zakim> +Shadi
13:56:45 <MartijnHoutepen> MartijnHoutepen has joined #eval
13:57:01 <shadi> zakim, aabb is Martijn
13:57:01 <Zakim> +Martijn; got it
13:57:34 <Zakim> +??P11
13:57:38 <vivienne> zakim, P11 is me
13:57:38 <Zakim> sorry, vivienne, I do not recognize a party named 'P11'
13:57:48 <vivienne> zakim, ??P11 is me
13:57:48 <Zakim> +vivienne; got it
13:58:38 <shadi> zakim, pick a victim
13:58:45 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Martijn
13:58:48 <ericvelleman> ericvelleman has joined #eval
13:59:13 <Zakim> + +1.520.271.aacc
13:59:30 <shadi> zakim, aacc is Don
13:59:37 <Zakim> +Don; got it
13:59:53 <Zakim> + +31.30.239.aadd
13:59:56 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, mute me
14:00:00 <Zakim> sorry, MartijnHoutepen, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:00:15 <shadi> zakim, aadd is Eric
14:00:15 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, Martijn is really MartijnHoutepen
14:00:24 <Zakim> +Eric; got it
14:00:25 <Zakim> +MartijnHoutepen; got it
14:00:29 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, mute me
14:00:31 <Zakim> + +1.978.562.aaee
14:00:38 <Zakim> MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
14:00:43 <shadi> zakim, aaee is Moe
14:00:43 <Zakim> +Moe; got it
14:00:47 <Zakim> + +49.404.318.aaff
14:01:17 <Detlev> Zakim, aff is Detlev
14:01:21 <shadi> zakim, aaff Detlev
14:01:25 <Zakim> sorry, Detlev, I do not recognize a party named 'aff'
14:01:30 <Sarah_Swierenga> Sarah_Swierenga has joined #eval
14:01:34 <Zakim> I don't understand 'aaff Detlev', shadi
14:01:36 <shadi> scribe: Martijn
14:01:38 <korn> korn has joined #eval
14:01:42 <Detlev> zakim, aaff is Detlev
14:01:43 <shadi> scribenick: MartijnHoutepen 
14:02:01 <Zakim> +Detlev; got it
14:02:24 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:02:29 <Zakim> + +1.517.353.aagg
14:02:33 <Kathy> zakim, mute me
14:02:45 <shadi> ack me
14:02:51 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:02:52 <vivienne> zakim, mute me
14:02:57 <Zakim> + +1.517.432.aahh
14:03:00 <Zakim> Kathy should now be muted
14:03:03 <vivienne> zakim, mute me
14:03:09 <Detlev> zakim, mute me
14:03:13 <Zakim> vivienne should now be muted
14:03:20 <vivienne> shadi, are our logins mixed up?
14:03:21 <Zakim> vivienne was already muted, vivienne
14:03:25 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
14:03:32 <Mike_Elledge> Mike_Elledge has joined #eval
14:03:33 <shadi> zakim, aagg is Sarah
14:03:39 <Zakim> +Sarah; got it
14:03:43 <shadi> zakim, aahh is Mike
14:03:49 <Zakim> +Mike; got it
14:04:10 <MartijnHoutepen> Eric: Welcome, we have some new members, Peter Korn, Moe, 
14:04:25 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:04:27 <Zakim> +[Oracle]
14:04:45 <shadi> zakim, oracle is Peter
14:05:00 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:05:30 <Zakim> +Peter; got it
14:05:39 <MartijnHoutepen> Moe: I work at IBM accessibility center, consulting, training & testing accessibility
14:07:22 <MartijnHoutepen> Peter: Oracle accessibility architect, originally from Sun, interested in WCAG/W3C and section 508
14:07:48 <shadi> ack me
14:08:02 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=48225&public=1
14:10:28 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:10:48 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:11:37 <MartijnHoutepen> Eric: looking at public comments mail archive, only 2 received 
14:12:14 <MartijnHoutepen> E: maybe more to the end of april
14:12:34 <Zakim> + +1.703.272.aaii
14:13:00 <shadi> zakim, aaii is Katie
14:13:00 <Zakim> +Katie; got it
14:13:18 <MartijnHoutepen> E: If we have a lot of comments we will need a system to work on the comments, if it is not to much we will use a plain html table
14:13:56 <Ryladog> Ryladog has joined #eval
14:14:36 <MartijnHoutepen> E: we will start working on document as is, after 27th april we will process comments
14:14:58 <MartijnHoutepen> E: hope to have a new draft in 2 months
14:16:39 <MartijnHoutepen> E: new editor draft not yet up, need more input to fill section 4 and 5, discussion on the list on section headings
14:16:59 <ericvelleman> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG-EM/
14:17:33 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-WCAG-EM-20120327/#step4
14:18:57 <MartijnHoutepen> E: discussion on assistive technology on the list, input needed on step 4a check for the Broadest Variety of Use Cases 
14:19:21 <Ryladog> q+
14:19:51 <ericvelleman> q?
14:20:04 <shadi> ack Ryladog
14:20:58 <EvalTF> EvalTF has joined #eval
14:21:26 <MartijnHoutepen> Katie: start by identifying primary use case, there may be more purposes beyond that, 
14:21:32 <shadi> q+
14:21:37 <korn> q+
14:21:47 <Moe> Moe has joined #eval
14:21:59 <shadi> ack me
14:22:06 <MartijnHoutepen> Katie: after primary use case  define broadest variety
14:22:51 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:22:51 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:22:51 <MartijnHoutepen> shadi: step4a relates to 1d, is it internal or public or mobile site, also relates 2b where we select key functionalities
14:23:02 <MartijnHoutepen> Katie: refer to those sections
14:23:19 <shadi> ak peter
14:23:25 <shadi> ack peter
14:23:31 <shadi> ack korn
14:23:34 <Mike_Elledge> q+
14:23:52 <Kathy> q+
14:24:06 <MartijnHoutepen> Peter: what does use case mean when we shift from website to webapplication? is styling in an online texteditor a use case?
14:24:24 <ericvelleman> q?
14:25:46 <MartijnHoutepen> Katie: could you phrase this as a question in the steps?
14:26:58 <shadi> q+
14:28:04 <MartijnHoutepen> Peter: i am worried on how this translates to webapplications, some accessibility issues are less important than others, but can be critical in (non-)conformance
14:29:47 <MartijnHoutepen> Peter: maybe reporting could include impact of problems 
14:31:00 <shadi> ack mike
14:31:44 <Detlev> q+
14:32:09 <MartijnHoutepen> Mike: should we be considering different use scenarios? 
14:33:42 <Detlev> 'scenario' could be quite confusing - sounds close to 'use case'
14:34:05 <Kathy> ack me
14:34:24 <MartijnHoutepen> E: @mike could you elaborate on the difference between scenarios and use cases on the list
14:35:25 <Detlev> q-
14:36:03 <MartijnHoutepen> Kathy: user stories more important in agile development model, we need to be careful to explain all flavours of user stories
14:36:48 <shadi> ack me
14:36:59 <Kathy> zakim, mute me
14:36:59 <Zakim> Kathy should now be muted
14:38:35 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:38:35 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:38:59 <MartijnHoutepen> shadi: I like this direction. To go back to Peters case: accessibility issues are the same on websites or webapplications,
14:39:30 <MartijnHoutepen> shadi: we shouldn't make the difference, up to manager to read into findings
14:40:38 <Detlev> q+
14:40:39 <MartijnHoutepen> peter: features of an application are different then the distuingishment between use cases,
14:41:45 <MartijnHoutepen> Eric: would be interesting for evaluators to have a method to define primary use case
14:41:52 <ericvelleman> q?
14:41:54 <Detlev> ack me
14:42:50 <Ryladog> q+
14:43:10 <MartijnHoutepen> Detlev: issue on claiming conformance using this methodology, similar problem arises when sampling
14:43:40 <MartijnHoutepen> D: all features of an application are part of the use case of using the application
14:44:32 <MartijnHoutepen> D: I think it is benificial to claim conformance while not being totally conformant, if you point out the issues
14:45:28 <MartijnHoutepen> Eric: not up to evaluator to decide if error is important, this is up to the manager
14:46:22 <MartijnHoutepen> D: you will then never reach conformance
14:47:08 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
14:47:08 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
14:47:22 <MartijnHoutepen> Katie: we need to identify what was accessible and what wasn't, conformance claim will point to what has been evaluated
14:47:46 <Detlev> q+
14:48:05 <Detlev> ack me
14:48:05 <korn> q+
14:48:17 <shadi> ack ryla
14:48:20 <MartijnHoutepen> K: dependent of company to say: we will be compliant or not. For websites it is important to be precise
14:48:50 <MartijnHoutepen> D: can you then leave out parts of the website?
14:49:47 <MartijnHoutepen> D: in a application you couldn't conform because there are too much options to choose
14:50:22 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
14:50:22 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
14:50:23 <ericvelleman> q?
14:50:37 <MartijnHoutepen> Katie: yes, if you don't evaluate the whole page you can't claim anything 
14:51:32 <MartijnHoutepen> Peter: some website parts are highly dynamics, different data may give different pages and different outcomes of an evaluation 
14:53:37 <MartijnHoutepen> Peter: If the application is too big, the application may be changed while testing
14:54:40 <MartijnHoutepen> Eric: we have to define boundaries in dynamic websites/applications
14:55:10 <MartijnHoutepen> Eric: we will focus on a ready product, which we will evaluate
14:55:48 <Ryladog> Sorry have to leave early
14:55:57 <Zakim> -Katie
14:56:44 <ericvelleman> q?
14:56:46 <shadi> q+
14:56:48 <MartijnHoutepen> Peter: in reporting we can introduce terms/adjectives separate from conformance (f.e. substantial conformance)
14:56:50 <shadi> ack korn
14:57:44 <Detlev> thins something like 'substantial conformance' would be a useful concept
14:59:11 <shadi> ack me
15:00:54 <MartijnHoutepen> shadi: if in testing things change, how can determine accessibility, in the documentation y/n is a minimum, but there is optional additional performances scores (section 5d)
15:02:54 <MartijnHoutepen> eric: new methodology will be up soon (tuesday),
15:03:00 <Zakim> -Kathy
15:03:35 <MartijnHoutepen> Eric: more discussion on wrinkles proposed by Peter
15:03:50 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, unmute me
15:03:52 <Mike_Elledge> Thank--bye
15:04:06 <vivienne> bye
15:04:08 <MartijnHoutepen> ok
15:04:12 <ericvelleman> ericvelleman has left #eval
15:04:19 <MartijnHoutepen> MartijnHoutepen has left #eval
15:04:30 <Zakim> MartijnHoutepen should no longer be muted
15:04:42 <Zakim> -Sarah
15:05:03 <Zakim> -Don
15:05:07 <Zakim> -Mike
15:05:15 <Zakim> -Moe
15:05:21 <Zakim> -Peter
15:05:23 <Zakim> -vivienne
15:05:33 <Zakim> -Shadi
15:05:59 <Zakim> -Eric
15:06:01 <Zakim> -Detlev
15:06:31 <Zakim> -MartijnHoutepen
15:06:36 <korn> korn has left #eval
15:06:37 <Zakim> WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has ended
15:06:41 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.978.443.aaaa, +31.30.239.aabb, Kathy, Shadi, vivienne, +1.520.271.aacc, Don, +31.30.239.aadd, Eric, MartijnHoutepen, +1.978.562.aaee, Moe, +49.404.318.aaff,
15:06:44 <Zakim> ... Detlev, +1.517.353.aagg, +1.517.432.aahh, Sarah, Mike, Peter, +1.703.272.aaii, Katie
15:13:28 <Moe> Moe has left #eval
15:45:40 <shadi> tarckbot, end meeting
15:45:51 <shadi> trackbot, end meeting
15:45:51 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:45:51 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
15:45:59 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:45:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/05-eval-minutes.html trackbot
15:46:00 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:46:00 <RRSAgent> I see no action items