19:58:38 RRSAgent has joined #svg 19:58:38 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/29-svg-irc 19:58:40 RRSAgent, make logs public 19:58:40 Zakim has joined #svg 19:58:42 Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG 19:58:42 ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes 19:58:43 Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference 19:58:43 Date: 29 March 2012 19:59:41 cyril has joined #svg 20:00:16 GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM has now started 20:00:22 +??P5 20:00:32 Zakim, ??P5 is me 20:00:32 +ed; got it 20:00:58 +cyril 20:02:38 +Doug_Schepers 20:02:56 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0185.html 20:03:12 +Tav 20:03:14 and agenda+ http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0187.html 20:03:21 +[IPcaller] 20:03:23 Zakim, [ is me 20:03:23 +heycam; got it 20:04:27 +krit 20:04:30 Zakim, pick a scribe 20:04:30 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ed 20:04:38 Zakim, pick a scribe 20:04:38 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose krit 20:04:49 +Present: Nikos 20:04:55 Zakim, pick a scribe 20:04:55 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ed 20:04:58 Zakim, pick a scribe 20:04:58 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Doug_Schepers 20:05:25 scribeNick: krit 20:05:29 chair: ed 20:05:51 topic: Finishing SVG 2 reuirements 20:05:55 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0175.html 20:06:08 cyril: I have an issue 20:08:08 heycam: I have an action for the first item 20:08:13 heycam: not done yet 20:08:46 heycam: action number: 3251 20:08:50 ACTION-3251 20:09:21 ed: what about smil time containers? 20:09:34 heycam: yes, let's take a look at that 20:09:48 heycam: I am happy about brians efforts 20:10:20 ed: any concerns? 20:10:48 shepazu: I suspect MS might have concerns but they are not here 20:12:11 heycam: I thing it is the full smil time container 20:12:22 cyril: he doesn't want elements but attributes 20:12:53 nikos has joined #svg 20:13:04 zakim, who is here 20:13:04 cyril, you need to end that query with '?' 20:13:08 zakim, who is here? 20:13:08 On the phone I see ed, cyril, Doug_Schepers, Tav, heycam, krit 20:13:24 +nikos 20:14:08 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Auckland_2011/Animation_improvements#Issue:_SMIL_is_greatly_complicated_by_syncbase_timing 20:14:12 resolution: SVG 2.0 requirement: support SMIL time containers 20:15:04 cyril: we want the feature of smil time containers, but not necessarily the element iteself 20:15:22 RRSAgent, pointer 20:15:22 See http://www.w3.org/2012/03/29-svg-irc#T20-15-22 20:15:45 heycam: "Consider adding a 'key()' keyword for animation triggers" 20:16:10 heycam: You can just get a single character no a key. Not good defined 20:16:25 cyril: don't think that this is an issue 20:16:47 cyril: I discussed security issues with brian on accessKeys 20:19:45 cyril: SVG integration of accessKeys might be modified to address security issues 20:22:11 ed: we should come up with a proposal that adresses security issues 20:23:13 resolution: SVG 2 requirement:Consider adding a 'key()' keyword for animation triggers and addressing security issues 20:23:57 krit: timelineBegin attribute on element next? 20:24:11 krit: even for inner SVG elements? 20:24:49 cyril: we should not speack about documents but time container 20:25:25 cyril: we can start new time containers anywhere. We should talk about that after we have time container 20:26:07 cyril: Oh, I think timlineBegin should only be on the document 20:26:54 see syncBehavior to control the timeline of a time container 20:26:59 heycam: you might not want to wait for document load end to start animations 20:27:39 krit: I think it should be part of the time container 20:28:01 heycam: it might make sense to start animations on a time container before the content is fully loaded 20:28:12 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#Run-time_Synchronization_attributes 20:28:13 cyril: I think we already have a resolution. 20:28:30 heycam: it was more about synchronizing media 20:28:49 cyril: i don't think so 20:29:14 cyril: e.g if you have video and audio that could differ from the timeline of the document 20:29:33 cyril: I agree with the request, we should define whne the timeLine begins 20:29:47 heycam: Well, I am fine with it 20:30:46 resolution: SVG 2 should specify when timeline starts. (maybe by a timeLine attribute) 20:31:40 s/resolution: SVG 2 should specify when timeline starts. (maybe by a timeLine attribute)/resolution: SVG2 will support a means for having SMIL animations start before their time container has fully loaded/ 20:32:28 heycam: The element 20:32:55 ed: to throw away elements based on animations. Good for big files on streaming 20:33:05 cyril: use case is still valid 20:33:40 cyril: there might be issues on scripting the elements 20:33:47 cyril: we should fix that 20:35:44 cyril: have you implemented it? 20:35:49 ed: yes, think so 20:37:07 s/yes, think so/yes, opera implements the element/ 20:37:32 heycam: brian seems not to be opposed to ti 20:37:39 s/ti/it/ 20:38:01 ed: can we resolve requirements? 20:38:33 resolution: SVG 2 will have elements to discard elements from the document tree 20:39:02 cyril: The 'playbackOrder' attribute on the element next 20:39:25 s/ elements to discard/ element to declaratively discard/ 20:41:02 If 'playbackOrder' is set to 'forwardOnly', the content will probably contain 'discard' elements or scripts that destroy resources, thus seeking back in the document's timeline may result in missing content. 20:41:27 heycam: more important for the UI controls 20:41:30 Similarly the UA should disable any controls it may provide in the user interface for seeking backwards. 20:41:46 http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/struct.html#SVGElementPlaybackOrderAttribute 20:42:21 ed: not sure ahow important the attribute is 20:43:02 ed: a lot of shoulds and mays 20:43:42 cyril: should you revert the elements? 20:44:05 cyril: we could use plabackOrder also with scripts 20:44:26 heycam: it might be useful if UIs have some build in controls 20:44:41 heycam: does flash have it? 20:45:08 heycam: you didn't implement this attribute yet? 20:45:10 cyril: no 20:45:19 ed: no, oper either 20:45:28 s/oper/Opera/ 20:46:05 ed: might only be useful for UIs 20:46:16 ed: not sure if the wording is so great either 20:47:32 resolution: SVG 2 should support the playbackOrder attribute to inform UA to not display controls to seek backwards 20:48:22 ed: we have all the things 20:48:47 topic: SVG next phase 20:48:49 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Commitments 20:50:31 krit: At adobe we will most likely specialise on glyphs and fonts, discussion is still going on 20:50:42 ed: I don't want to sign up for to many at this point 20:51:06 ed: I might sing up for a couple more 20:51:33 cyril: I haven't discussed it yet with colleagues 20:51:39 -Tav 20:51:46 heycam: I have a bunch of them 20:51:59 heycam: most of them will be align with html5 20:52:16 +Tav 20:54:34 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Planning_Page#Milestones 20:55:34 cyril: We should do as much as possible till april to publish first WD till July 20:55:53 cyril: And then make a second round for missing requirments 20:56:05 heycam: july is the first step 20:56:56 heycam: and then straight to last call in january 20:59:00 shepazu: We should have as much as possible but should go out with what we have 20:59:54 shepazu: the first WD should have the new things in it 21:00:05 shepazu: we focus on the new stuff 21:00:23 shepazu: people are more interessted in the new stuff than what SVG 1.1 has 21:04:49 -heycam 21:04:58 I think we need to do 3 things: freeze the commitments, start editing the spec to add the annotations for this first set of reqs and then start receiving proposals 21:05:12 and evaluating them 21:07:00 resolution: Commitments on SVG parts we want to work on will be frozen by next week 21:08:13 +??P0 21:08:19 Zakim, ??P0 is me 21:08:19 +heycam; got it 21:08:37 topic: extract part of an SVG image by its id 21:08:46 Zakim, code? 21:08:46 the conference code is 7841 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), heycam 21:09:05 shepazu: I send an email with the conversation that I have with fantasai 21:09:17 shepazu: you all have read 21:09:46 shepazu: media fragment spec let you point to different parts of document you want 21:10:54 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0189.html has some examples I cooked up, using ids for selecting parts of an svg "spritemap" 21:11:22 shepazu: think about a use element can point to an element in SVG and just wants to show this one 21:11:52 shepazu: an CSS image would access that 21:12:14 shepazu: we had one use case in SVG for navigation 21:12:39 shepazu: fantasai proposes what a fragment is in SVG 2 and what to do when the UA points to that 21:12:42 Fantasai's point that SVG just needs to define what a hash *represents* is sufficient. We can take over from there. But defining it as representing "navigate/scale/whatever the viewport" isn't useful. 21:12:48 shepazu: what is the navigation behavior 21:13:13 And then you can say that the default behavior is to navigate to the referenced element. 21:14:44 http://dahlström.net/tmp/sharp-icons/svg-icon-target.svg#chart 21:14:50 http://dahlström.net/tmp/sharp-icons/svg-icon-target.svg#plus 21:15:17 ed: it should work in FF as well 21:15:44 it works in all browsers 21:16:25 heycam: one use viewBox on the target and two hide the other ones 21:18:01 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/sprites.svg 21:19:48 heycam: most document just gone have a part of an image with an ID. There won't be an viewBox arround it 21:19:59 ed has left #svg 21:20:05 ed has joined #svg 21:20:06 ed: what eric did works fin here. 21:21:10 would like to know how this relates to -- is kind of indirect, so this would provide the same/similar functionality but be simpler? 21:21:34 and #svgView() 21:21:35 woo 21:21:49 shepazu: if we get auhtoring tools to support this than we are fine 21:21:57 http://dahlström.net/tmp/sharp-icons/svg-icon.svg#chart 21:22:38 this alternative uses elements to define the viewboxes 21:22:58 heycam: you have to define a viewBox 21:23:28 ... and lacks the display:none things, which could be added of course, similarly to http://dahlström.net/tmp/sharp-icons/svg-icon-target.svg#chart 21:23:41 shepazu: currentyl the SVG 1.1 says that its simple goes to view port of the SVG anchetor of this elements 21:23:48 shepazu: you just have the svg root 21:25:13 krit: I saw eriks solution some times, mostly for zooming 21:25:29 shepazu: eirks solution is a good interim solution 21:26:56 cyril: just want to confirm the next F2F meetings 21:27:26 Seattle, USA, 25-27 July, 2012 21:28:11 cyril: what is the next one? 21:28:18 cyril: TPAC, SVG open? 21:28:37 topic: next svg f2f meetings 21:28:44 shepazu: this is the last SVG Open 21:29:08 shepazu: would be good to have on f2f at SVG open 21:30:15 cyril: can you attend to TPAC and SVG open? 21:30:29 Tav: figure it out 21:31:08 topic: SVG functionality in Canvas 21:31:36 krit: I was surprised about the SVG path stuff in Canvas 21:32:13 heycam: I think he wants to make sure that path or matrix work well or at least similar as the SVG one 21:33:04 shepazu: hixie asked SVG WG to review it before he lands stuff 21:34:36 shepazu: but now he published it 21:34:51 shepazu: I think we should review what is there and send coments 21:35:11 http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2012-March/035239.html 21:35:29 shepazu: I suggest to mail the comments to the canvas mailing list, svg mailing list and hixie 21:35:49 Yes, please. "Publishing" does not in any way imply it's frozen (until implementations emerge). 21:36:05 The SVG stuff in Canvas so far: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html#path-objects 21:36:44 shepazu: SVG WG should be involved in how SVG error handling works 21:38:36 heycam: I will review it 21:39:38 shepazu: thats enought for now 21:39:55 shepazu: can we start with these topics on next meeting minutes? 21:41:21 http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html#hit-regions 21:41:36 shepazu: next f2f over emails and telcom times on next meeting 21:41:55 -ed 21:44:08 -heycam 21:44:11 -Doug_Schepers 21:44:14 -Tav 21:44:19 -cyril 21:44:34 RRSAgent, make minutes 21:44:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/29-svg-minutes.html krit 21:44:38 zakim, who is here? 21:44:38 On the phone I see krit 21:48:43 -krit 21:48:44 GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM has ended 21:48:44 Attendees were ed, cyril, Doug_Schepers, Tav, [IPcaller], heycam, krit 21:52:40 shepazu, krit, looking at the spec for the Path(d) constructor, it says "The resulting path could be empty. SVG defines error handling rules for parsing and applying path data." 21:52:55 so I'm not sure what there is to complain about 21:53:07 we do have rules in SVG about rendering up to the point of an error in the path data 21:53:08 heycam: just commented some lines before on the chat 21:53:19 krit hixie changes the note about error handling on SVG Path to : The resulting path could be empty. SVG defines error handling rules for parsing and applying path data. 21:53:32 and this seems fine for me 21:53:35 ok 21:53:37 so it was fixed 21:58:15 yeah, though we don't call it error-handling (and should) 22:05:02 shepazu, krit: there seems to be some confusion on the CSSWG list about SVG Transforms vs. CSS Transforms. Maybe one of you can clear that up? 22:05:05 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2012JanMar/0492.html 22:16:15 fantasai: argh. Why are these kind of discussions not on publix-fx? 22:16:56 even worst, I did not get these mails :( 22:31:04 just to confirm, we have addressed all the initial proposed requirements (179/179) 22:31:17 there remains only 4 late ones: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#Late_Proposed_Requirements 22:32:12 TabAtkins has left #svg