14:51:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov
14:51:51 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/29-prov-irc
14:51:53 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:51:53 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov
14:51:55 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
14:51:55 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:51:56 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:51:56 <trackbot> Date: 29 March 2012
14:51:59 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV
14:51:59 <Zakim> ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
14:52:17 <pgroth> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.03.29
14:52:29 <pgroth> Chair: Paul Groth
14:52:47 <pgroth> Scribe: Daniel Garijo
14:52:58 <pgroth> Regrets: Simon Miles
14:53:05 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public
14:53:39 <jun> jun has joined #prov
14:54:39 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
14:54:46 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:54:48 <dgarijo> dgarijo has joined #prov
14:55:45 <Zakim> +??P15
14:55:57 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P15 is me
14:55:57 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it
14:56:08 <dgarijo> scribe: dgarijo
14:56:27 <Zakim> + +329331aaaa
14:56:58 <Zakim> +Luc
14:57:29 <Tom_De_Nies> Zakim, +329331aaaa is me
14:57:29 <Zakim> +Tom_De_Nies; got it
14:59:45 <tlebo> tlebo has joined #prov
14:59:59 <Curt> Curt has joined #prov
15:00:01 <Zakim> +tlebo
15:00:06 <Paolo> Paolo has joined #prov
15:00:27 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes
15:01:18 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has joined #prov
15:01:31 <Tom_De_Nies> Zakim, Tom_De_Nies is with SamCoppens
15:01:47 <Zakim> sorry, Tom_De_Nies, I do not recognize a party named 'SamCoppens'
15:01:53 <Zakim> +??P50
15:01:56 <Zakim> +??P43
15:01:56 <jcheney> Zakim, ??P50 is me
15:02:02 <jun> zakim, ??P43 is me
15:02:20 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it
15:02:29 <Zakim> +jun; got it
15:02:38 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
15:02:56 <Paolo> zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me
15:03:08 <Zakim> +??P49
15:03:10 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it
15:03:12 <pgroth> q?
15:03:19 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the call?
15:03:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], dgarijo, Tom_De_Nies, Luc, tlebo, Curt_Tilmes, jcheney, jun, Paolo, ??P49
15:03:28 <pgroth> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:03:30 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
15:03:49 <dgarijo> yes
15:03:58 <StephenCresswell> StephenCresswell has joined #prov
15:04:07 <pgroth> Minutes last telco: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-03-22
15:04:15 <dgarijo> +1
15:04:21 <Curt> +1
15:04:23 <Tom_De_Nies> +1
15:04:24 <tlebo> +1
15:04:28 <jcheney> +1
15:04:30 <GK1> GK1 has joined #prov
15:04:33 <Paolo> +1
15:05:01 <Zakim> +??P53
15:05:06 <pgroth> Approved: Minutes of the March 22 2012 Telecon
15:05:15 <GK> GK has joined #prov
15:05:24 <dgarijo> pgroth: open actions
15:05:32 <dgarijo> ... there is still 1 open, on me
15:05:48 <dgarijo> ... I think the action is done (new version of the paq)
15:05:58 <dgarijo> ... next topic: reminder about the scribes
15:06:27 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:06:28 <dgarijo> ... welcome to Tom De Nies
15:06:35 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:06:35 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:06:37 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:06:37 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:06:43 <dgarijo> tom: colleague of SamCoppens
15:07:05 <dgarijo> ... work in enrichment of  news and provenance assessment of news. Very happy to be here
15:07:12 <pgroth> q?
15:07:19 <dgarijo> paul: questions?
15:07:23 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-DM
15:07:35 <Zakim> +??P16
15:07:36 <dgarijo> pgroth: stauts update?
15:07:39 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvDMWorkingDraft5
15:08:11 <GK> Zakim, ??P16 is me
15:08:11 <Zakim> +GK; got it
15:08:20 <MacTed> it would be VERY helpful if links to relevant docs can always be included in (added to) the Agenda
15:08:22 <dgarijo> luc:We've been working quite hard on the model. The documents are ready today (deadline is monday). In the wikipage there is a to do list and most of the items are covered.
15:08:31 <Paolo> "align collection productions [PM]"  done, actually
15:08:40 <dgarijo> ... invalidation will not be covered. It will be written and merged separately.
15:08:49 <Zakim> +??P10
15:08:55 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov
15:09:03 <dgarijo> ... for provn we've done checks for everything except collections
15:09:09 <Paolo> @Luc collections productions done this morning
15:09:14 <sandro> sorry, previous meeting ran late.
15:09:16 <dgarijo> ... constraints part has not been started.
15:09:24 <Zakim> +sandro
15:09:33 <dgarijo> ... will try to have it for monday, although we are not sure.
15:09:38 <pgroth> q?
15:09:43 <dgarijo> pgroth: questions?
15:09:45 <tlebo> q+
15:09:54 <pgroth> ack tlebo
15:10:00 <Paolo> :collection (paolo) -- fix the constraints to allow for multiple contained() assertions" --> please see my mail this morning re: this
15:10:11 <dgarijo> tlebo: curious about the "finished today but still something to do for monday"
15:10:16 <Paolo> (have to go, sorry in between trains)
15:10:25 <Zakim> -Paolo
15:10:27 <dgarijo> luc: part 2 is the one we are going to start tomorrow.
15:10:33 <pgroth> q?
15:10:53 <Tom_De_Nies> Zakim, mute me
15:10:53 <Zakim> Tom_De_Nies should now be muted
15:10:56 <tlebo> (DM and N are finished today, CONSTRAINTS is for Monday.)
15:11:05 <dgarijo> luc: we have identified a number of questions for reviewers:
15:11:24 <dgarijo> ... can the doc be released as a fwd?
15:11:29 <dgarijo> ... blockers?
15:12:16 <dgarijo> ... reviewers with pending issues please confirm if they can be clsoed
15:12:25 <dgarijo> s/clsoed/closed
15:12:37 <Zakim> -??P53
15:12:51 <dgarijo> ... typos gramatical issues can be submitted in issues 331, 332 and 333
15:12:56 <pgroth> q?
15:13:09 <pgroth> q?
15:13:12 <Zakim> +??P22
15:13:39 <dgarijo> paul: reviewers for provd and provn can start reviewing now?
15:13:44 <stainPhone> stainPhone has joined #prov
15:14:00 <Paolo> Paolo has joined #prov
15:14:09 <dgarijo> luc: they could. But there are a few tweaks we'll have to do once we reach the constraints on part to. Up to the reviewers.
15:14:15 <tlebo> Monday is fine :-)
15:14:17 <Zakim> -??P22
15:14:30 <Paolo> zakim, ??P22 is me
15:14:31 <Zakim> I already had ??P22 as ??P22, Paolo
15:14:41 <dgarijo> pgroth: reviewers were: Tim, khalid, curt, jun and...
15:15:14 <dgarijo> luc: if you are in agreement the we can send a notification on monday
15:15:33 <GK> I'm not seeing the document URIs at the page posted previuously
15:15:33 <Curt> I can't really do it until next week anyway
15:15:34 <dgarijo> pgroth: ok, so wait till monday to begin the review.
15:15:36 <pgroth> q?
15:15:54 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.03.29#PROV-O
15:15:55 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-o
15:16:12 <pgroth> pgroth has left #prov
15:16:17 <dgarijo> tlebo: different parts of the team working on different parts of the doc.
15:16:19 <pgroth> pgroth has joined #prov
15:16:34 <dgarijo> ... some questions to the reviewers are on the link posted in the irc
15:16:45 <dgarijo> ... will be ready for review by monday
15:17:01 <Zakim> +??P22
15:17:06 <Luc> where is the prov-o.html document?
15:17:10 <Zakim> +??P24
15:17:15 <dgarijo> tlebo: the organization scheme has changed
15:17:23 <dgarijo> @Luc: in aquarius :(
15:17:34 <Luc> thanks
15:18:09 <pgroth> q?
15:18:12 <dgarijo> tlebo: is it enough to understand everything, are the cross references useful?
15:18:36 <dgarijo> tlebo: please start to be familiar with the ontology.
15:18:43 <dgarijo> ... should we add more examples.
15:19:13 <dgarijo> pgroth: would you move this to the w3c site (what people are supposed to review).
15:19:19 <pgroth> q?
15:19:29 <dgarijo> tlebo: yes, it will be a save as in mercurial
15:19:53 <dgarijo> pgroth: could anybody else volunteer to review?
15:20:11 <SamCoppens> I will review it also
15:20:18 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
15:20:18 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
15:20:20 <GK> (I may, but reluctant to over-commit right now)
15:20:34 <dgarijo> luc: macTed?
15:20:43 <dgarijo> macTed: I'll try to have a look
15:20:49 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:20:49 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:20:50 <Luc> @paul, could you remind us the timing for review
15:21:05 <dgarijo> paul: so sam an macTed as new reviewers.
15:21:28 <pgroth> april 9th
15:21:35 <dgarijo> pgroth: monday is the release, April 9th is the due date for the reviews.
15:21:38 <Zakim> -??P22
15:21:49 <pgroth> q?
15:22:09 <GK> q+
15:22:17 <dgarijo> ... will try to reach consensus on 12 or 19th depending on the feedback. On monday we'll send an email to remember everyone
15:22:17 <pgroth> ack GK
15:22:34 <Luc> they will be emailed on Monday
15:22:38 <dgarijo> GK: Can I ask for confirmation of the URIs of the docs to be reviewed.
15:22:54 <dgarijo> pgroth: will send them on monday, when they are ready to be released.
15:22:59 <pgroth> q?
15:23:05 <pgroth> Topic: Prov-Primer
15:23:35 <dgarijo> pgroth: simon couldn't be here, but sent an update: Comments by Stian and Paolo are addrssed.
15:23:45 <Zakim> -??P24
15:23:47 <dgarijo> ... he will have the rest by monday (examples)
15:23:57 <dgarijo> ... he might be postponing collections.
15:24:14 <Zakim> +??P22
15:24:43 <pgroth> q?
15:24:48 <dgarijo> ... questions for the reviewers: The primer doesn't talk that mucho about qualified involvement. What is the opinion of the reviewers about that? Can that be left for a later draft?
15:24:51 <Luc> q+
15:24:53 <dgarijo> ... blocking issues?
15:24:56 <pgroth> ack Luc
15:25:21 <dgarijo> luc: how do we talk about roles withouth qE?
15:25:34 <dgarijo> s/qE/qI
15:25:46 <Luc> yes
15:25:50 <stainPhone> time can be mentioned wirh location and custom attributes
15:25:53 <pgroth> q?
15:26:11 <stainPhone> +1
15:26:12 <dgarijo> paul: that might be the question he's asking to the reviewers.
15:26:14 <dgarijo> +1
15:26:37 <dgarijo> ... so sounds reasonable to delay the discussion about collections in the primer.
15:27:05 <dgarijo> luc: agrees.
15:27:17 <dgarijo> pgroth: I will send an email to Simon.
15:27:19 <pgroth> q?
15:27:26 <pgroth> Topic: PAQ
15:27:29 <stainPhone> and I am Stephan are doing the prov-o mapping of collections. 
15:27:40 <pgroth> sure
15:28:02 <dgarijo> GK: I made a past to the doc simplifying sections.
15:28:20 <dgarijo> ... still to discuss some of the changes with paul.
15:28:26 <pgroth> updated version is here: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/2b3bd4e1beb1/paq/working/prov-aq.html
15:28:44 <dgarijo> ... there are still issues to resolve in the doc.
15:29:31 <dgarijo> ... unify the namespace. Added an appendix. Issues like 70, 211 have been addressed. 233, 76 too.
15:30:16 <dgarijo> ... should we be changing the prov:entity uri with sime other thing?
15:30:32 <dgarijo> paul: we need to follow up some of these issues.
15:30:39 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
15:30:50 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: GK (50%)
15:30:59 <dgarijo> ... how to use sparql and linked data.
15:31:05 <MacTed> mute would be appreciated on clacky keyboard 
15:31:05 <dgarijo> ... with prov.
15:31:15 <Paolo> Paolo has joined #prov
15:31:36 <dgarijo> ... people wanted to retrieve the prov of entities and activities
15:31:37 <dgarijo> Zakim, mute GK
15:31:37 <Zakim> GK should now be muted
15:31:51 <dgarijo> @graham, sorry, I couldn't hear :(
15:31:56 <Zakim> +??P0
15:32:03 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
15:32:03 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
15:32:09 <pgroth> q?
15:32:11 <Paolo> akim, ??P0 is me
15:32:11 <MacTed> q+
15:32:18 <dgarijo> paul: what do the gorup thinks about that?
15:32:21 <Zakim> -GK
15:32:21 <stainPhone> provElement or similar?
15:32:24 <Paolo> zakim, ??P0 is me
15:32:24 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it
15:32:41 <Zakim> +??P2
15:32:43 <dgarijo> MacTed: distinction between entity and activity is artificial.
15:32:47 <GK> zakim, ??p2 is me
15:32:47 <Zakim> +GK; got it
15:33:01 <dgarijo> ... we're building ourselves problems.
15:33:02 <Tom_De_Nies> Tom_De_Nies has joined #prov
15:33:20 <Luc> q+
15:33:29 <pgroth> ack MacTed 
15:33:32 <pgroth> ack Luc
15:34:12 <dgarijo> luc: paul mentioned activities and entities. There are a lot of terms with ids (nearly all of them). I don't think it is artificial
15:34:15 <pgroth> q?
15:35:19 <dgarijo> MacTed: however it is a redefined type. Entitiy has a common usage in the world, and we are using it in a total different way. The struggle to keep that in a different way is the thing that I don't like
15:35:20 <pgroth> q?
15:35:27 <Luc> but this would be teh case for any word we use, wouldn't it?
15:35:28 <pgroth> q?
15:35:47 <GK> q+ to ask if any alternative terms have been suggested?
15:36:33 <Curt> the concept represented by our term entity is inherently complex
15:36:33 <dgarijo> pgroth: for the paq we need a term that represents everything with an identity in the model. Maybe provenance element, or ideantifiable.
15:36:42 <stainPhone> "about" ? ;)
15:36:43 <GK> Ah...
15:37:16 <dgarijo> MacTed: it continues to be confusing for us all.
15:37:22 <pgroth> q?
15:37:25 <pgroth> ack GK
15:37:25 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to ask if any alternative terms have been suggested?
15:37:43 <pgroth> q?
15:37:48 <dgarijo> GK: has an alternative name been suggested?
15:38:04 <dgarijo> pgroth: maybe we should go back to the paq itself
15:38:28 <dgarijo> ... we will release it next week for people to look at it
15:38:28 <pgroth> q?
15:38:32 <Luc> @GK: I agree that one can always propose better names, but for now, we don't have any other suggestion
15:38:41 <pgroth> q?
15:38:46 <Luc> q+
15:38:47 <GK> @Luc hence my Q :)
15:39:07 <dgarijo> luc: what is your timetable. Synchronized release?
15:39:14 <dgarijo> pgroth: I don't think so.
15:39:52 <Luc> we could release it shortly afterwads
15:39:53 <dgarijo> ... it is almost there, but almost everyone is commmitted to reviewing something. And also, it is somehow separate. 
15:40:04 <GK> Not so much "separate" as "orthogonal" ?
15:40:22 <dgarijo> ... next week we'll have something when people have time to review
15:40:55 <dgarijo> GK: I may be travelling next week. Limited internet connection access.
15:41:23 <pgroth> Topic: Namespace Unification
15:41:40 <pgroth>  http://www.w3.org/ns/prov#
15:41:43 <dgarijo> pgroth: last week we talked about the ns unification. The use of the hash
15:42:02 <dgarijo> ... is this use violated in rdf/xml serializations?
15:42:20 <dgarijo> ... sandro contacted the xml working group
15:42:24 <pgroth> q?
15:42:27 <pgroth> ack Luc
15:42:50 <dgarijo> .... they encouraged us to have a common namespace
15:42:59 <dgarijo> ... the one proposed is fine with xml
15:43:13 <dgarijo> ... it doesn't really matter what you have.
15:43:31 <GK> I'm happy with that resolution.
15:43:44 <pgroth> Propose that we use http://www.w3.org/ns/prov# as the common namespace for all prov specs
15:43:52 <GK> +1
15:43:52 <dgarijo> +1
15:43:54 <Curt> +1
15:43:55 <tlebo> +1
15:43:58 <Zakim> -??P22
15:44:00 <jcheney> +1
15:44:04 <sandro> +1
15:44:06 <zednik> +1
15:44:07 <SamCoppens> +1
15:44:09 <StephenCresswell> +1
15:44:12 <jun> +1
15:44:12 <MacTed> +0
15:44:26 <Tom_De_Nies> +1
15:44:35 <pgroth> Accepted: use http://www.w3.org/ns/prov# as the common namespace for all prov specs
15:44:42 <pgroth> Close ISSUE-224 http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/224
15:44:45 <dgarijo> pgroth: we can close issue 224
15:45:27 <dgarijo> ... provide an html index to link all the docs toghether.
15:45:45 <dgarijo> ... are there volunteers for this?
15:45:47 <pgroth> q?
15:45:59 <pgroth> q?
15:46:26 <dgarijo> ... I'll go ahead and start doing it after monday
15:46:52 <dgarijo> ... I'll need some help
15:46:55 <pgroth> q?
15:47:10 <Luc> q+
15:47:17 <pgroth> ack Luc
15:47:32 <dgarijo> luc: regarding collections: 3 relations are being proposed.
15:47:46 <pgroth> Topic: Collections
15:48:03 <dgarijo> ... do we want to have the same form (in the past) as the o ther properties?
15:48:17 <pgroth> q?
15:48:21 <dgarijo> it would be nice to have some input
15:48:32 <GK> What's the anticip[ated context of use?
15:49:06 <Paolo> q+
15:49:14 <pgroth> ack Paolo 
15:49:46 <dgarijo> paolo: any time you want to track the prov of the collection.
15:49:51 <jun> do we have a link to the proposal?
15:50:11 <GK> SO, if it's for tracking provenance of collections as well as members, I think using the same form is appropriate.
15:50:50 <dgarijo> ... for workflows is more important (to know if an element of the collection belonged to an execution, etc)
15:50:55 <pgroth> q?
15:51:47 <dgarijo> paul: I want to come back about the name in the PAQ for entity URI
15:52:29 <pgroth> q?
15:52:30 <Luc> q+
15:52:31 <dgarijo> ... any suggestions would be helpful
15:52:42 <dgarijo> luc: why not resource?
15:53:00 <dgarijo> - Provenance element? provenance resource?
15:53:30 <dgarijo> gk: It was because we wanted to have a way of talking about the views.
15:54:02 <dgarijo> paul: the scruffyness of the dm allows us to refer to resource.
15:54:30 <dgarijo> gk: I'm trying to see what are the implications about this. I'm not sure
15:54:48 <dgarijo> ... I would have to check the rest of the document. Maybe works.
15:54:58 <dgarijo> luc: It is a reasonable suggestions
15:55:50 <dgarijo> pgroth: the distinction between entity/process is more a dm problem.
15:56:12 <Luc> q+
15:56:17 <dgarijo> ... you could raise an issue, MacTed, and propose other names.
15:56:24 <pgroth> ack Luc
15:56:31 <dgarijo> Luc: do you have suggestions for other names?
15:56:59 <Curt> we went through other terms people didn't like.... They don't like entity either, but it was left standing after other terms were eliminated.
15:57:01 <dgarijo> ... that was the best one we came up with. We used to have Bob (and we don't want to go back there).
15:57:09 <pgroth> +1 curt
15:57:21 <dgarijo> ... the only way to move forward is through new proposals
15:57:25 <GK> q+ to say I think I can see a way to revising PAQ 1.2 to remove "entity" and just talk about "resource" without losing the essence of the material
15:57:44 <dgarijo> MacTed: I don't think we are the first people to look at these questions.
15:58:09 <dgarijo> pgroth: the conclusion is: If you have a better name for consideration, feel free to propose it.
15:58:18 <pgroth> ack GK
15:58:18 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to say I think I can see a way to revising PAQ 1.2 to remove "entity" and just talk about "resource" without losing the essence of the material
15:58:46 <dgarijo> GK: we can eliminate the term entity without loosing much in the doc.
15:59:29 <pgroth> q?
15:59:36 <dgarijo> pgroth: good bye everyone
15:59:39 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes
15:59:44 <Zakim> -tlebo
15:59:44 <dgarijo> ... and good luck for monday
15:59:47 <Zakim> -pgroth
15:59:49 <Zakim> -jcheney
15:59:52 <Zakim> -Luc
15:59:55 <Zakim> -jun
15:59:57 <Zakim> -GK
16:00:00 <Zakim> -dgarijo
16:00:03 <Zakim> -Paolo
16:00:04 <pgroth> daniel I'll do the minutes
16:00:05 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:00:07 <Zakim> -sandro
16:00:09 <Zakim> -??P10
16:00:09 <dgarijo> ok, thanks!
16:00:12 <dgarijo> bye!
16:00:17 <Zakim> -Tom_De_Nies
16:00:27 <Tom_De_Nies> bye!
16:00:47 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public
16:00:53 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:00:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/29-prov-minutes.html pgroth
16:00:58 <pgroth> trackbot, end telcon
16:00:58 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:01:06 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:01:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/29-prov-minutes.html trackbot
16:01:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:01:07 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
16:01:08 <GK> @Paul: would you like me take to a pass at this while it's fresh in my mind (s/entity/resource/)