IRC log of prov on 2012-03-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:51:51 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #prov
14:51:51 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/29-prov-irc
14:51:53 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs world
14:51:53 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #prov
14:51:55 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be
14:51:55 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:51:56 [trackbot]: Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:51:56 [trackbot]: Date: 29 March 2012
14:51:59 [pgroth]: Zakim, this will be PROV
14:51:59 [Zakim]: ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
14:52:17 [pgroth]: Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.03.29
14:52:29 [pgroth]: Chair: Paul Groth
14:52:47 [pgroth]: Scribe: Daniel Garijo
14:52:58 [pgroth]: Regrets: Simon Miles
14:53:05 [pgroth]: rrsagent, make logs public
14:53:39 [jun]: jun has joined #prov
14:54:39 [Zakim]: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
14:54:46 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
14:54:48 [dgarijo]: dgarijo has joined #prov
14:55:45 [Zakim]: +??P15
14:55:57 [dgarijo]: Zakim, ??P15 is me
14:55:57 [Zakim]: +dgarijo; got it
14:56:08 [dgarijo]: scribe: dgarijo
14:56:27 [Zakim]: + +329331aaaa
14:56:58 [Zakim]: +Luc
14:57:29 [Tom_De_Nies]: Zakim, +329331aaaa is me
14:57:29 [Zakim]: +Tom_De_Nies; got it
14:59:45 [tlebo]: tlebo has joined #prov
14:59:59 [Curt]: Curt has joined #prov
15:00:01 [Zakim]: +tlebo
15:00:06 [Paolo]: Paolo has joined #prov
15:00:27 [Zakim]: +Curt_Tilmes
15:01:18 [SamCoppens]: SamCoppens has joined #prov
15:01:31 [Tom_De_Nies]: Zakim, Tom_De_Nies is with SamCoppens
15:01:47 [Zakim]: sorry, Tom_De_Nies, I do not recognize a party named 'SamCoppens'
15:01:53 [Zakim]: +??P50
15:01:56 [Zakim]: +??P43
15:01:56 [jcheney]: Zakim, ??P50 is me
15:02:02 [jun]: zakim, ??P43 is me
15:02:20 [Zakim]: +jcheney; got it
15:02:29 [Zakim]: +jun; got it
15:02:38 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller.a]
15:02:56 [Paolo]: zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me
15:03:08 [Zakim]: +??P49
15:03:10 [Zakim]: +Paolo; got it
15:03:12 [pgroth]: q?
15:03:19 [pgroth]: Zakim, who is on the call?
15:03:19 [Zakim]: On the phone I see [IPcaller], dgarijo, Tom_De_Nies, Luc, tlebo, Curt_Tilmes, jcheney, jun, Paolo, ??P49
15:03:28 [pgroth]: Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:03:30 [Zakim]: +pgroth; got it
15:03:49 [dgarijo]: yes
15:03:58 [StephenCresswell]: StephenCresswell has joined #prov
15:04:07 [pgroth]: Minutes last telco: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-03-22
15:04:15 [dgarijo]: +1
15:04:21 [Curt]: +1
15:04:23 [Tom_De_Nies]: +1
15:04:24 [tlebo]: +1
15:04:28 [jcheney]: +1
15:04:30 [GK1]: GK1 has joined #prov
15:04:33 [Paolo]: +1
15:05:01 [Zakim]: +??P53
15:05:06 [pgroth]: Approved: Minutes of the March 22 2012 Telecon
15:05:15 [GK]: GK has joined #prov
15:05:24 [dgarijo]: pgroth: open actions
15:05:32 [dgarijo]: ... there is still 1 open, on me
15:05:48 [dgarijo]: ... I think the action is done (new version of the paq)
15:05:58 [dgarijo]: ... next topic: reminder about the scribes
15:06:27 [Zakim]: +OpenLink_Software
15:06:28 [dgarijo]: ... welcome to Tom De Nies
15:06:35 [MacTed]: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:06:35 [Zakim]: +MacTed; got it
15:06:37 [MacTed]: Zakim, mute me
15:06:37 [Zakim]: MacTed should now be muted
15:06:43 [dgarijo]: tom: colleague of SamCoppens
15:07:05 [dgarijo]: ... work in enrichment of news and provenance assessment of news. Very happy to be here
15:07:12 [pgroth]: q?
15:07:19 [dgarijo]: paul: questions?
15:07:23 [pgroth]: Topic: PROV-DM
15:07:35 [Zakim]: +??P16
15:07:36 [dgarijo]: pgroth: stauts update?
15:07:39 [Luc]: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvDMWorkingDraft5
15:08:11 [GK]: Zakim, ??P16 is me
15:08:11 [Zakim]: +GK; got it
15:08:20 [MacTed]: it would be VERY helpful if links to relevant docs can always be included in (added to) the Agenda
15:08:22 [dgarijo]: luc:We've been working quite hard on the model. The documents are ready today (deadline is monday). In the wikipage there is a to do list and most of the items are covered.
15:08:31 [Paolo]: "align collection productions [PM]" done, actually
15:08:40 [dgarijo]: ... invalidation will not be covered. It will be written and merged separately.
15:08:49 [Zakim]: +??P10
15:08:55 [zednik]: zednik has joined #prov
15:09:03 [dgarijo]: ... for provn we've done checks for everything except collections
15:09:09 [Paolo]: @Luc collections productions done this morning
15:09:14 [sandro]: sorry, previous meeting ran late.
15:09:16 [dgarijo]: ... constraints part has not been started.
15:09:24 [Zakim]: +sandro
15:09:33 [dgarijo]: ... will try to have it for monday, although we are not sure.
15:09:38 [pgroth]: q?
15:09:43 [dgarijo]: pgroth: questions?
15:09:45 [tlebo]: q+
15:09:54 [pgroth]: ack tlebo
15:10:00 [Paolo]: :collection (paolo) -- fix the constraints to allow for multiple contained() assertions" --> please see my mail this morning re: this
15:10:11 [dgarijo]: tlebo: curious about the "finished today but still something to do for monday"
15:10:16 [Paolo]: (have to go, sorry in between trains)
15:10:25 [Zakim]: -Paolo
15:10:27 [dgarijo]: luc: part 2 is the one we are going to start tomorrow.
15:10:33 [pgroth]: q?
15:10:53 [Tom_De_Nies]: Zakim, mute me
15:10:53 [Zakim]: Tom_De_Nies should now be muted
15:10:56 [tlebo]: (DM and N are finished today, CONSTRAINTS is for Monday.)
15:11:05 [dgarijo]: luc: we have identified a number of questions for reviewers:
15:11:24 [dgarijo]: ... can the doc be released as a fwd?
15:11:29 [dgarijo]: ... blockers?
15:12:16 [dgarijo]: ... reviewers with pending issues please confirm if they can be clsoed
15:12:25 [dgarijo]: s/clsoed/closed
15:12:37 [Zakim]: -??P53
15:12:51 [dgarijo]: ... typos gramatical issues can be submitted in issues 331, 332 and 333
15:12:56 [pgroth]: q?
15:13:09 [pgroth]: q?
15:13:12 [Zakim]: +??P22
15:13:39 [dgarijo]: paul: reviewers for provd and provn can start reviewing now?
15:13:44 [stainPhone]: stainPhone has joined #prov
15:14:00 [Paolo]: Paolo has joined #prov
15:14:09 [dgarijo]: luc: they could. But there are a few tweaks we'll have to do once we reach the constraints on part to. Up to the reviewers.
15:14:15 [tlebo]: Monday is fine :-)
15:14:17 [Zakim]: -??P22
15:14:30 [Paolo]: zakim, ??P22 is me
15:14:31 [Zakim]: I already had ??P22 as ??P22, Paolo
15:14:41 [dgarijo]: pgroth: reviewers were: Tim, khalid, curt, jun and...
15:15:14 [dgarijo]: luc: if you are in agreement the we can send a notification on monday
15:15:33 [GK]: I'm not seeing the document URIs at the page posted previuously
15:15:33 [Curt]: I can't really do it until next week anyway
15:15:34 [dgarijo]: pgroth: ok, so wait till monday to begin the review.
15:15:36 [pgroth]: q?
15:15:54 [tlebo]: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.03.29#PROV-O
15:15:55 [pgroth]: Topic: PROV-o
15:16:12 [pgroth]: pgroth has left #prov
15:16:17 [dgarijo]: tlebo: different parts of the team working on different parts of the doc.
15:16:19 [pgroth]: pgroth has joined #prov
15:16:34 [dgarijo]: ... some questions to the reviewers are on the link posted in the irc
15:16:45 [dgarijo]: ... will be ready for review by monday
15:17:01 [Zakim]: +??P22
15:17:06 [Luc]: where is the prov-o.html document?
15:17:10 [Zakim]: +??P24
15:17:15 [dgarijo]: tlebo: the organization scheme has changed
15:17:23 [dgarijo]: @Luc: in aquarius :(
15:17:34 [Luc]: thanks
15:18:09 [pgroth]: q?
15:18:12 [dgarijo]: tlebo: is it enough to understand everything, are the cross references useful?
15:18:36 [dgarijo]: tlebo: please start to be familiar with the ontology.
15:18:43 [dgarijo]: ... should we add more examples.
15:19:13 [dgarijo]: pgroth: would you move this to the w3c site (what people are supposed to review).
15:19:19 [pgroth]: q?
15:19:29 [dgarijo]: tlebo: yes, it will be a save as in mercurial
15:19:53 [dgarijo]: pgroth: could anybody else volunteer to review?
15:20:11 [SamCoppens]: I will review it also
15:20:18 [MacTed]: Zakim, unmute me
15:20:18 [Zakim]: MacTed should no longer be muted
15:20:20 [GK]: (I may, but reluctant to over-commit right now)
15:20:34 [dgarijo]: luc: macTed?
15:20:43 [dgarijo]: macTed: I'll try to have a look
15:20:49 [MacTed]: Zakim, mute me
15:20:49 [Zakim]: MacTed should now be muted
15:20:50 [Luc]: @paul, could you remind us the timing for review
15:21:05 [dgarijo]: paul: so sam an macTed as new reviewers.
15:21:28 [pgroth]: april 9th
15:21:35 [dgarijo]: pgroth: monday is the release, April 9th is the due date for the reviews.
15:21:38 [Zakim]: -??P22
15:21:49 [pgroth]: q?
15:22:09 [GK]: q+
15:22:17 [dgarijo]: ... will try to reach consensus on 12 or 19th depending on the feedback. On monday we'll send an email to remember everyone
15:22:17 [pgroth]: ack GK
15:22:34 [Luc]: they will be emailed on Monday
15:22:38 [dgarijo]: GK: Can I ask for confirmation of the URIs of the docs to be reviewed.
15:22:54 [dgarijo]: pgroth: will send them on monday, when they are ready to be released.
15:22:59 [pgroth]: q?
15:23:05 [pgroth]: Topic: Prov-Primer
15:23:35 [dgarijo]: pgroth: simon couldn't be here, but sent an update: Comments by Stian and Paolo are addrssed.
15:23:45 [Zakim]: -??P24
15:23:47 [dgarijo]: ... he will have the rest by monday (examples)
15:23:57 [dgarijo]: ... he might be postponing collections.
15:24:14 [Zakim]: +??P22
15:24:43 [pgroth]: q?
15:24:48 [dgarijo]: ... questions for the reviewers: The primer doesn't talk that mucho about qualified involvement. What is the opinion of the reviewers about that? Can that be left for a later draft?
15:24:51 [Luc]: q+
15:24:53 [dgarijo]: ... blocking issues?
15:24:56 [pgroth]: ack Luc
15:25:21 [dgarijo]: luc: how do we talk about roles withouth qE?
15:25:34 [dgarijo]: s/qE/qI
15:25:46 [Luc]: yes
15:25:50 [stainPhone]: time can be mentioned wirh location and custom attributes
15:25:53 [pgroth]: q?
15:26:11 [stainPhone]: +1
15:26:12 [dgarijo]: paul: that might be the question he's asking to the reviewers.
15:26:14 [dgarijo]: +1
15:26:37 [dgarijo]: ... so sounds reasonable to delay the discussion about collections in the primer.
15:27:05 [dgarijo]: luc: agrees.
15:27:17 [dgarijo]: pgroth: I will send an email to Simon.
15:27:19 [pgroth]: q?
15:27:26 [pgroth]: Topic: PAQ
15:27:29 [stainPhone]: and I am Stephan are doing the prov-o mapping of collections.
15:27:40 [pgroth]: sure
15:28:02 [dgarijo]: GK: I made a past to the doc simplifying sections.
15:28:20 [dgarijo]: ... still to discuss some of the changes with paul.
15:28:26 [pgroth]: updated version is here: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/2b3bd4e1beb1/paq/working/prov-aq.html
15:28:44 [dgarijo]: ... there are still issues to resolve in the doc.
15:29:31 [dgarijo]: ... unify the namespace. Added an appendix. Issues like 70, 211 have been addressed. 233, 76 too.
15:30:16 [dgarijo]: ... should we be changing the prov:entity uri with sime other thing?
15:30:32 [dgarijo]: paul: we need to follow up some of these issues.
15:30:39 [MacTed]: Zakim, who's noisy?
15:30:50 [Zakim]: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: GK (50%)
15:30:59 [dgarijo]: ... how to use sparql and linked data.
15:31:05 [MacTed]: mute would be appreciated on clacky keyboard
15:31:05 [dgarijo]: ... with prov.
15:31:15 [Paolo]: Paolo has joined #prov
15:31:36 [dgarijo]: ... people wanted to retrieve the prov of entities and activities
15:31:37 [dgarijo]: Zakim, mute GK
15:31:37 [Zakim]: GK should now be muted
15:31:51 [dgarijo]: @graham, sorry, I couldn't hear :(
15:31:56 [Zakim]: +??P0
15:32:03 [MacTed]: Zakim, unmute me
15:32:03 [Zakim]: MacTed should no longer be muted
15:32:09 [pgroth]: q?
15:32:11 [Paolo]: akim, ??P0 is me
15:32:11 [MacTed]: q+
15:32:18 [dgarijo]: paul: what do the gorup thinks about that?
15:32:21 [Zakim]: -GK
15:32:21 [stainPhone]: provElement or similar?
15:32:24 [Paolo]: zakim, ??P0 is me
15:32:24 [Zakim]: +Paolo; got it
15:32:41 [Zakim]: +??P2
15:32:43 [dgarijo]: MacTed: distinction between entity and activity is artificial.
15:32:47 [GK]: zakim, ??p2 is me
15:32:47 [Zakim]: +GK; got it
15:33:01 [dgarijo]: ... we're building ourselves problems.
15:33:02 [Tom_De_Nies]: Tom_De_Nies has joined #prov
15:33:20 [Luc]: q+
15:33:29 [pgroth]: ack MacTed
15:33:32 [pgroth]: ack Luc
15:34:12 [dgarijo]: luc: paul mentioned activities and entities. There are a lot of terms with ids (nearly all of them). I don't think it is artificial
15:34:15 [pgroth]: q?
15:35:19 [dgarijo]: MacTed: however it is a redefined type. Entitiy has a common usage in the world, and we are using it in a total different way. The struggle to keep that in a different way is the thing that I don't like
15:35:20 [pgroth]: q?
15:35:27 [Luc]: but this would be teh case for any word we use, wouldn't it?
15:35:28 [pgroth]: q?
15:35:47 [GK]: q+ to ask if any alternative terms have been suggested?
15:36:33 [Curt]: the concept represented by our term entity is inherently complex
15:36:33 [dgarijo]: pgroth: for the paq we need a term that represents everything with an identity in the model. Maybe provenance element, or ideantifiable.
15:36:42 [stainPhone]: "about" ? ;)
15:36:43 [GK]: Ah...
15:37:16 [dgarijo]: MacTed: it continues to be confusing for us all.
15:37:22 [pgroth]: q?
15:37:25 [pgroth]: ack GK
15:37:25 [Zakim]: GK, you wanted to ask if any alternative terms have been suggested?
15:37:43 [pgroth]: q?
15:37:48 [dgarijo]: GK: has an alternative name been suggested?
15:38:04 [dgarijo]: pgroth: maybe we should go back to the paq itself
15:38:28 [dgarijo]: ... we will release it next week for people to look at it
15:38:28 [pgroth]: q?
15:38:32 [Luc]: @GK: I agree that one can always propose better names, but for now, we don't have any other suggestion
15:38:41 [pgroth]: q?
15:38:46 [Luc]: q+
15:38:47 [GK]: @Luc hence my Q :)
15:39:07 [dgarijo]: luc: what is your timetable. Synchronized release?
15:39:14 [dgarijo]: pgroth: I don't think so.
15:39:52 [Luc]: we could release it shortly afterwads
15:39:53 [dgarijo]: ... it is almost there, but almost everyone is commmitted to reviewing something. And also, it is somehow separate.
15:40:04 [GK]: Not so much "separate" as "orthogonal" ?
15:40:22 [dgarijo]: ... next week we'll have something when people have time to review
15:40:55 [dgarijo]: GK: I may be travelling next week. Limited internet connection access.
15:41:23 [pgroth]: Topic: Namespace Unification
15:41:40 [pgroth]: http://www.w3.org/ns/prov#
15:41:43 [dgarijo]: pgroth: last week we talked about the ns unification. The use of the hash
15:42:02 [dgarijo]: ... is this use violated in rdf/xml serializations?
15:42:20 [dgarijo]: ... sandro contacted the xml working group
15:42:24 [pgroth]: q?
15:42:27 [pgroth]: ack Luc
15:42:50 [dgarijo]: .... they encouraged us to have a common namespace
15:42:59 [dgarijo]: ... the one proposed is fine with xml
15:43:13 [dgarijo]: ... it doesn't really matter what you have.
15:43:31 [GK]: I'm happy with that resolution.
15:43:44 [pgroth]: Propose that we use http://www.w3.org/ns/prov# as the common namespace for all prov specs
15:43:52 [GK]: +1
15:43:52 [dgarijo]: +1
15:43:54 [Curt]: +1
15:43:55 [tlebo]: +1
15:43:58 [Zakim]: -??P22
15:44:00 [jcheney]: +1
15:44:04 [sandro]: +1
15:44:06 [zednik]: +1
15:44:07 [SamCoppens]: +1
15:44:09 [StephenCresswell]: +1
15:44:12 [jun]: +1
15:44:12 [MacTed]: +0
15:44:26 [Tom_De_Nies]: +1
15:44:35 [pgroth]: Accepted: use http://www.w3.org/ns/prov# as the common namespace for all prov specs
15:44:42 [pgroth]: Close ISSUE-224 http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/224
15:44:45 [dgarijo]: pgroth: we can close issue 224
15:45:27 [dgarijo]: ... provide an html index to link all the docs toghether.
15:45:45 [dgarijo]: ... are there volunteers for this?
15:45:47 [pgroth]: q?
15:45:59 [pgroth]: q?
15:46:26 [dgarijo]: ... I'll go ahead and start doing it after monday
15:46:52 [dgarijo]: ... I'll need some help
15:46:55 [pgroth]: q?
15:47:10 [Luc]: q+
15:47:17 [pgroth]: ack Luc
15:47:32 [dgarijo]: luc: regarding collections: 3 relations are being proposed.
15:47:46 [pgroth]: Topic: Collections
15:48:03 [dgarijo]: ... do we want to have the same form (in the past) as the o ther properties?
15:48:17 [pgroth]: q?
15:48:21 [dgarijo]: it would be nice to have some input
15:48:32 [GK]: What's the anticip[ated context of use?
15:49:06 [Paolo]: q+
15:49:14 [pgroth]: ack Paolo
15:49:46 [dgarijo]: paolo: any time you want to track the prov of the collection.
15:49:51 [jun]: do we have a link to the proposal?
15:50:11 [GK]: SO, if it's for tracking provenance of collections as well as members, I think using the same form is appropriate.
15:50:50 [dgarijo]: ... for workflows is more important (to know if an element of the collection belonged to an execution, etc)
15:50:55 [pgroth]: q?
15:51:47 [dgarijo]: paul: I want to come back about the name in the PAQ for entity URI
15:52:29 [pgroth]: q?
15:52:30 [Luc]: q+
15:52:31 [dgarijo]: ... any suggestions would be helpful
15:52:42 [dgarijo]: luc: why not resource?
15:53:00 [dgarijo]: - Provenance element? provenance resource?
15:53:30 [dgarijo]: gk: It was because we wanted to have a way of talking about the views.
15:54:02 [dgarijo]: paul: the scruffyness of the dm allows us to refer to resource.
15:54:30 [dgarijo]: gk: I'm trying to see what are the implications about this. I'm not sure
15:54:48 [dgarijo]: ... I would have to check the rest of the document. Maybe works.
15:54:58 [dgarijo]: luc: It is a reasonable suggestions
15:55:50 [dgarijo]: pgroth: the distinction between entity/process is more a dm problem.
15:56:12 [Luc]: q+
15:56:17 [dgarijo]: ... you could raise an issue, MacTed, and propose other names.
15:56:24 [pgroth]: ack Luc
15:56:31 [dgarijo]: Luc: do you have suggestions for other names?
15:56:59 [Curt]: we went through other terms people didn't like.... They don't like entity either, but it was left standing after other terms were eliminated.
15:57:01 [dgarijo]: ... that was the best one we came up with. We used to have Bob (and we don't want to go back there).
15:57:09 [pgroth]: +1 curt
15:57:21 [dgarijo]: ... the only way to move forward is through new proposals
15:57:25 [GK]: q+ to say I think I can see a way to revising PAQ 1.2 to remove "entity" and just talk about "resource" without losing the essence of the material
15:57:44 [dgarijo]: MacTed: I don't think we are the first people to look at these questions.
15:58:09 [dgarijo]: pgroth: the conclusion is: If you have a better name for consideration, feel free to propose it.
15:58:18 [pgroth]: ack GK
15:58:18 [Zakim]: GK, you wanted to say I think I can see a way to revising PAQ 1.2 to remove "entity" and just talk about "resource" without losing the essence of the material
15:58:46 [dgarijo]: GK: we can eliminate the term entity without loosing much in the doc.
15:59:29 [pgroth]: q?
15:59:36 [dgarijo]: pgroth: good bye everyone
15:59:39 [Zakim]: -Curt_Tilmes
15:59:44 [Zakim]: -tlebo
15:59:44 [dgarijo]: ... and good luck for monday
15:59:47 [Zakim]: -pgroth
15:59:49 [Zakim]: -jcheney
15:59:52 [Zakim]: -Luc
15:59:55 [Zakim]: -jun
15:59:57 [Zakim]: -GK
16:00:00 [Zakim]: -dgarijo
16:00:03 [Zakim]: -Paolo
16:00:04 [pgroth]: daniel I'll do the minutes
16:00:05 [Zakim]: -MacTed
16:00:07 [Zakim]: -sandro
16:00:09 [Zakim]: -??P10
16:00:09 [dgarijo]: ok, thanks!
16:00:12 [dgarijo]: bye!
16:00:17 [Zakim]: -Tom_De_Nies
16:00:27 [Tom_De_Nies]: bye!
16:00:47 [pgroth]: rrsagent, set log public
16:00:53 [pgroth]: rrsagent, draft minutes
16:00:53 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/29-prov-minutes.html pgroth
16:00:58 [pgroth]: trackbot, end telcon
16:00:58 [trackbot]: Zakim, list attendees
16:01:06 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:01:06 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/29-prov-minutes.html trackbot
16:01:07 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, bye
16:01:07 [RRSAgent]: I see no action items
16:01:08 [GK]: @Paul: would you like me take to a pass at this while it's fresh in my mind (s/entity/resource/)