IRC log of eval on 2012-03-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:51:26 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #eval
13:51:26 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/29-eval-irc
13:51:28 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:51:30 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 3825
13:51:30 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
13:51:31 [trackbot]
Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference
13:51:31 [trackbot]
Date: 29 March 2012
13:51:38 [shadi]
agenda?
13:51:54 [MartijnHoutepen]
ah, I missed that one
13:51:59 [shadi]
:)
13:52:19 [MartijnHoutepen]
should I dial in again?
13:52:49 [shadi]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:52:49 [Zakim]
apparently WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)11:00AM has ended, shadi
13:52:51 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, MartijnHoutepen, shadi, Zakim, trackbot
13:52:58 [shadi]
zakim, this eval
13:52:58 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this eval', shadi
13:53:02 [shadi]
zakim, this is eval
13:53:02 [Zakim]
ok, shadi; that matches WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM
13:53:06 [shadi]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:53:06 [Zakim]
On the phone I see MartijnHoutepen
13:53:17 [MartijnHoutepen]
ahh :-)
13:56:14 [Zakim]
+Don
13:58:08 [MartijnHoutepen]
ok thank you shadi!
13:58:41 [ericvelleman]
ericvelleman has joined #eval
13:59:40 [Zakim]
+ +1.703.227.aaaa
14:00:03 [Zakim]
+Eric
14:00:17 [Sarah_Swierenga]
Sarah_Swierenga has joined #eval
14:01:00 [Zakim]
+Sarah
14:01:39 [Ryladog]
Ryladog has joined #eval
14:01:49 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, aaaa is Ryladog
14:01:49 [Zakim]
+Ryladog; got it
14:02:20 [vivienne]
vivienne has joined #eval
14:02:49 [shadi]
regrets: Alistair, Detlev
14:03:13 [sds]
sds has joined #eval
14:03:17 [richard]
richard has joined #eval
14:03:22 [MartijnHoutepen]
scribe: Katie
14:03:35 [Kathy]
Kathy has joined #eval
14:04:06 [Zakim]
+Kathyw
14:04:11 [Zakim]
+ssirois
14:04:22 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
14:04:25 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, next agendum
14:04:25 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "welcome, scribe" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
14:04:29 [vivienne]
zakim, IPCaller is me
14:04:29 [Zakim]
+vivienne; got it
14:04:44 [shadi]
zakim, Kathyw is really Kathy
14:04:44 [Zakim]
+Kathy; got it
14:04:46 [vivienne]
zakim, mute me
14:04:46 [Zakim]
vivienne should now be muted
14:05:03 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, mute me
14:05:03 [Zakim]
MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
14:05:06 [Zakim]
+Elle
14:05:08 [ssirois]
zakim, mute me
14:05:08 [Zakim]
ssirois should now be muted
14:05:09 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
14:05:19 [Kathy]
zakim, mute me
14:05:19 [Zakim]
Kathy should now be muted
14:05:19 [ericvelleman]
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG-EM/
14:05:26 [Ryladog]
Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force (Eval TF)
14:05:39 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, IPCaller is richard
14:05:39 [Zakim]
+richard; got it
14:05:39 [Elle]
Elle has joined #eval
14:05:45 [Ryladog]
Chair: Eric
14:06:11 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, take up next
14:06:11 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "next steps" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
14:06:42 [shadi]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:06:42 [Zakim]
On the phone I see MartijnHoutepen (muted), Don, Ryladog, Eric, Sarah, Kathy (muted), ssirois (muted), vivienne (muted), richard, Elle
14:06:43 [Ryladog]
EV: We have our working draft, chnaged with points open
14:06:50 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, take up agendum 2
14:06:50 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "draft is online" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
14:07:12 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
14:07:22 [Ryladog]
EV; Clean up steps 4 and 5, public comments until the 27th of April
14:07:40 [Kerstin]
Kerstin has joined #eval
14:07:40 [Sarah_Swierenga]
Mike Elledge is on vacation this week, so he won't be joining us today.
14:07:52 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, IPCaller is Kerstin
14:07:52 [Zakim]
+Kerstin; got it
14:07:53 [Ryladog]
EV: I have seen comments come in from the EC, and some positive
14:07:57 [Kerstin]
zakim, mute me
14:07:57 [Zakim]
Kerstin should now be muted
14:08:10 [vivienne]
q+
14:08:14 [shadi]
regrets: Alistair, Detlev, Mike
14:08:31 [vivienne]
zakiml, ack me
14:08:32 [ericvelleman]
q?
14:08:34 [Kerstin]
thx Martijn
14:08:38 [vivienne]
zakim, ack me
14:08:38 [Zakim]
unmuting vivienne
14:08:39 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
14:09:30 [Ryladog]
I have gotten a number of comments here, they have been exceedingly positive in Australia
14:09:32 [MartijnHoutepen]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-evaltf/2012Mar/0070.html
14:09:36 [Ryladog]
thanks
14:09:52 [vivienne]
zakim, mute me
14:09:52 [Zakim]
vivienne should now be muted
14:09:57 [Ryladog]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-evaltf/2012Mar/0070.html
14:10:46 [vivienne]
Eric, where can we see these comments?
14:10:48 [Ryladog]
EV: Folks can respond on an official mailing list which is useful
14:10:55 [shadi]
[[please note the public commenting list to send comments to (to avoid clutter on our discussion list): public-wcag-em-comments@w3.org]]
14:11:29 [Zakim]
-richard
14:11:38 [Ryladog]
EV: We will note all the comments and will put them in a tracking system
14:11:50 [shadi]
[[archives are public: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wcag-em-comments/]]
14:12:15 [ericvelleman]
q?
14:12:29 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, take up agendum 3
14:12:29 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "next steps" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
14:13:09 [richard_]
richard_ has joined #eval
14:13:18 [vivienne]
sounds good
14:13:23 [Kathy]
sounds good
14:13:23 [Elle]
+1
14:13:32 [MartijnHoutepen]
+1
14:13:40 [Zakim]
+??P34
14:13:53 [MartijnHoutepen]
zakim, p34 is richard_
14:13:53 [Zakim]
sorry, MartijnHoutepen, I do not recognize a party named 'p34'
14:13:54 [Kerstin]
+1
14:13:54 [ericvelleman]
first work on adding info and then work on comments after the public period
14:14:02 [Ryladog]
EV: WE will call it an editor draft again for the next month we will put in as much content as we can, and then after the April period end we will work on the comments
14:14:04 [MartijnHoutepen]
zakim, ??P34 is richard_
14:14:04 [Zakim]
+richard_; got it
14:14:34 [ericvelleman]
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG-EM/
14:15:05 [vivienne]
that's fine
14:15:06 [Ryladog]
EV: I will start adding content to this draft, starting with parts 4 and 5
14:15:13 [MartijnHoutepen]
+1
14:15:15 [richard_]
+1
14:15:19 [Ryladog]
+1
14:15:19 [ssirois]
+1
14:15:31 [Kerstin]
+1
14:16:16 [Ryladog]
EV: I already had alot of text for 4 and 5, but I took it out, so I can start with that, and I would like you to shoot at it
14:16:36 [Ryladog]
EV: Step 4; Auditing of Sample
14:17:36 [Ryladog]
EV: You would audit that selected sample. How to use techniques in step 4b
14:18:00 [Ryladog]
EV: Do you need to add accessibility support in the evaluation process?
14:18:44 [Ryladog]
EV: Archiving of web pages - is this a good idea to discuss. And if you do, how do you do this
14:19:08 [Ryladog]
EV: I want to start on non-optional items in Parts 4 and 5
14:20:06 [Ryladog]
EV: Accessibility Statements samples that we saw very different. So we will go with trying to provide some guidance
14:20:42 [Ryladog]
EV: Suggestions for Repairs: Machine readable reporting is important
14:21:04 [Ryladog]
EV: Commments on step 4 on Auditing?
14:21:05 [vivienne]
q+
14:21:12 [vivienne]
ack me
14:21:15 [Kathy]
q+
14:22:03 [Ryladog]
Vivienne: When I start I try to understand the purpose of the site, is when we come to the use cases, what are the critical aspects
14:22:39 [vivienne]
zakim, mute me
14:22:39 [Zakim]
vivienne should now be muted
14:22:42 [richard_]
Q+
14:22:57 [Ryladog]
Viv: Start with the promary purpose of the site and build the use cases, can you actually checking for them with AT
14:23:17 [vivienne]
ack me
14:23:54 [Ryladog]
EV: It is difficult to make the use case. Best to use the most common use case
14:24:03 [Kathy]
ack me
14:24:04 [vivienne]
zakim, mute me
14:24:04 [Zakim]
vivienne should now be muted
14:24:21 [Ryladog]
Viv: Again, starting with the purpose of what the user needs to do on the site
14:25:50 [Ryladog]
Kathy: The next step is auditing, what are the different ways to go through the actual sample, use cases, user stories, WCAG step by step
14:26:05 [vivienne]
I tend to do both checking all the WCAG 2 points, as well as making sure all use cases can be accomplished
14:26:24 [Kathy]
zakim, mute me
14:26:24 [Zakim]
Kathy should now be muted
14:26:27 [Ryladog]
Kathy: Depends on what type of what the development process, I have to customise to my clients and how they work
14:26:56 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, q- richard_
14:26:56 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
14:27:01 [Ryladog]
Richard: I agree with Kathy, I think we need to stress the efficiency of the testing
14:27:11 [ericvelleman]
q?
14:27:37 [Zakim]
-richard_
14:28:07 [Ryladog]
Richard: I am actually concerned that we need to ensure that users can perform all of the functions of the site
14:28:17 [Ryladog]
EV: If you look at use cases, what way we choose things in Step 3
14:28:27 [Ryladog]
EV: Anything else?
14:28:55 [vivienne]
q+
14:28:58 [vivienne]
ack me
14:29:05 [Ryladog]
EV: Techniques, is there anyone that has techniques. We have said that the techniques are not the success criteria
14:30:06 [Ryladog]
Viv: We have to come back to the knowledge of WCAG here, they have to understand the techique and Failures of WCAG. Maybe we need to go into deal
14:30:06 [Kerstin]
q+
14:30:10 [vivienne]
zakim, mute me
14:30:10 [Zakim]
vivienne should now be muted
14:30:16 [Ryladog]
VIV: Maybe a how to use the WCAG 2 techniques
14:30:22 [Kerstin]
zakim, unmute me
14:30:22 [Zakim]
Kerstin should no longer be muted
14:30:24 [Ryladog]
EV: To what level?
14:30:27 [Sarah_Swierenga]
I agree with Vivienn's comments about evaluators WCAG2.0 expertise.
14:30:53 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, q- Kerstin
14:30:53 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
14:31:17 [Ryladog]
Kerstin: Techniques we use, we identify proplems, thenb we propose actions, and then the techniques for that set we use
14:31:52 [Zakim]
+ +1.703.983.aabb
14:31:57 [Ryladog]
Kerstin: It depends on what the clients wants. Some want Pass/Fail, others want more
14:32:13 [Ryladog]
EV: We cover that in Step 2
14:32:35 [Ryladog]
Kerstin: We have this in the Appendix examplke 1, 2 and 3
14:32:36 [ssirois]
I would look at techniques as possible solutions or lines of thought we can propose to problems we encountered on the website regarding the success criterias.
14:32:52 [Ryladog]
Tim: I am calling in remotely
14:33:24 [Ryladog]
EV: Step 4 audit, how to use the technique
14:33:32 [ssirois]
s/throught/throat
14:33:38 [Zakim]
-Elle
14:34:02 [Ryladog]
EV: Accessibility Support Step 4c - but does this mean that we ask them to use AT?
14:34:26 [Kerstin]
zakim, mute me
14:34:26 [Zakim]
Kerstin should now be muted
14:34:34 [vivienne]
I use NVDA
14:34:49 [vivienne]
my clients want to know if people can use their screen readers
14:34:52 [vivienne]
q+
14:34:53 [Kathy]
q+
14:34:53 [vivienne]
ack me
14:35:11 [Ryladog]
EV: It depends on the level of detail the client wants. How do you cover accessibility support. Vivienna you use NVDA, do you use that for a tool
14:36:24 [Ryladog]
Viv: I use a screenreader to test the content. It is a good thing to do using AT during your testing. I like to use it to verify my findings
14:36:24 [vivienne]
zakim, mute me
14:36:25 [Zakim]
vivienne should now be muted
14:36:32 [Ryladog]
q+_
14:36:36 [Kathy]
ack me
14:36:43 [Ryladog]
q+
14:36:43 [shadi]
[[sidenote: accessibility support does not necessarily mean testing with AT but ensuring that a technique works with a set of target ATs (this information could come from an accessibility support database or such); this is, however, different to the question if ATs should be part of the testing process or not]]
14:36:58 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, q- _
14:36:58 [Zakim]
I see Ryladog on the speaker queue
14:37:04 [Sarah_Swierenga]
Mike and I always use JAWS, NDVA, ZoomText, and various items, e.g., color contrast, linearization, heading structure, field labels, from the Web Accessibility Toolbar to conduct a manual review of the pages.
14:37:14 [Sarah_Swierenga]
q+
14:37:32 [Ryladog]
Kathy: Always use JAWS, NVDA, Window Eyes, ZoomText for everything
14:37:49 [Ryladog]
EV: Doesn't this take a lot of time?
14:37:53 [ssirois]
My first audit step is to go through the page with my keyboard, a screen reader and i usualy surf in text mode... so that i'm aware of possible issues while auditing with my set of "questions".
14:38:06 [Kerstin]
q+
14:38:21 [ericvelleman]
q?
14:38:24 [Kathy]
ack me
14:38:37 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, q- Ryladog
14:38:37 [Zakim]
I see Sarah_Swierenga, Kerstin on the speaker queue
14:39:11 [Ryladog]
Ryladog: I use it everytime
14:40:36 [vivienne]
I agree, it is essential
14:41:13 [Ryladog]
Sarah: We always do a manual review with keyboard and WAT, WAVE, but we never send anything out the door with NVDA, JAWS, ZoomText
14:41:37 [Kerstin]
zakim, unmute me
14:41:37 [Zakim]
Kerstin should no longer be muted
14:41:54 [Ryladog]
I use DOM inspection tools before using the AT tools
14:41:59 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, q- Sarah-Swierenga
14:41:59 [Zakim]
I see Sarah_Swierenga, Kerstin on the speaker queue
14:42:10 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, q- Sarah_Swierenga
14:42:10 [Zakim]
I see Kerstin on the speaker queue
14:42:16 [Ryladog]
ViV: AT is usually a part of the evaluation
14:42:17 [Sarah_Swierenga]
clarification: we don't send anything out "without" using JAWS, NDVA, and ZoomText to conduct a manual evaluation.
14:42:21 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, q- Kerstin
14:42:21 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
14:42:44 [MartijnHoutepen]
q+
14:42:52 [Kerstin]
zakim, mute me
14:42:52 [Zakim]
Kerstin should now be muted
14:43:33 [Ryladog]
EV: Do we always use AT. Are the techniques that we use Acccessibility Supported
14:44:22 [Kerstin]
q+
14:44:40 [MartijnHoutepen]
zakim, ack me
14:44:40 [Zakim]
unmuting MartijnHoutepen
14:44:41 [Ryladog]
EV: That raises the question do we still need to be sure the techniques are Accessibility Supported
14:44:41 [Zakim]
I see Kerstin on the speaker queue
14:44:48 [ericvelleman]
q?
14:44:55 [vivienne]
I don't think you can make a statement about the accessibility of a page without testing with AT
14:45:09 [Kerstin]
zakim, unmute me
14:45:09 [Zakim]
Kerstin should no longer be muted
14:45:13 [Ryladog]
MH: We only use the AT for things that we cannot test from the source code
14:45:49 [Ryladog]
Kerstin: We should add a note concerning internet, AT must be used
14:45:50 [Kerstin]
zakim, mute me
14:45:50 [Zakim]
Kerstin should now be muted
14:46:35 [Kerstin]
Ryladog intranet was meant
14:46:44 [Ryladog]
EV: Next Question - how do you report this?
14:46:51 [Ryladog]
q+
14:46:56 [MartijnHoutepen]
s/internet/intranet
14:47:02 [Kerstin]
zakim, unmute me
14:47:02 [Zakim]
Kerstin should no longer be muted
14:47:07 [MartijnHoutepen]
q- Kerstin
14:47:08 [ericvelleman]
q?
14:47:12 [Zakim]
-Don
14:47:21 [Kerstin]
zakim, mute me
14:47:21 [Zakim]
Kerstin should now be muted
14:47:24 [MartijnHoutepen]
q- Ryladog
14:47:45 [ssirois]
zakim, please disconnect me
14:47:45 [Zakim]
ssirois is being disconnected
14:47:46 [Zakim]
-ssirois
14:48:15 [Zakim]
+ssirois
14:48:20 [ssirois]
zakim, mute me
14:48:20 [Zakim]
ssirois should now be muted
14:50:17 [ericvelleman]
q?
14:51:02 [Ryladog]
EV: I will get with Shadi and Martin, working on 4 and 5, and send some things to the mailing list
14:51:41 [Ryladog]
EV: The Audit will not be difficult, but reporting will be more difficult
14:52:08 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, take up agendum 4
14:52:08 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "other" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
14:52:13 [Ryladog]
EV: agedum 4
14:52:24 [vivienne]
is anyone going to be at W4A?
14:52:34 [MartijnHoutepen]
zakim, unmute me
14:52:34 [Zakim]
MartijnHoutepen was not muted, MartijnHoutepen
14:52:36 [Ryladog]
EV: stop this call 8 minutes early
14:52:37 [Kerstin]
don't know what to do with 8 minutes ;-)
14:52:42 [vivienne]
bye now
14:52:44 [Zakim]
- +1.703.983.aabb
14:52:45 [ssirois]
thank you all eval-tf peers
14:52:46 [Kerstin]
bye all
14:52:48 [Zakim]
-vivienne
14:52:49 [Sarah_Swierenga]
bye
14:52:49 [Zakim]
-ssirois
14:52:54 [Zakim]
-Sarah
14:52:57 [Zakim]
-Eric
14:52:58 [Ryladog]
EV: Please join in on the discussion on the mailing list this week
14:52:58 [Zakim]
-Kathy
14:53:02 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, disconnect me
14:53:02 [Zakim]
MartijnHoutepen is being disconnected
14:53:03 [Zakim]
-MartijnHoutepen
14:53:09 [Zakim]
-Kerstin
14:53:15 [Ryladog]
RRSAgent, set logs world-visible
14:53:27 [Ryladog]
RRSAgent, make minutes
14:53:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/29-eval-minutes.html Ryladog
14:54:03 [shadi]
katie, i will clean up and send out the minutes
14:54:10 [shadi]
thanks a lot for minuting!
14:54:15 [Ryladog]
Thank you!
14:54:16 [shadi]
trackbot, end meeting
14:54:16 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
14:54:17 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been MartijnHoutepen, Don, +1.703.227.aaaa, Eric, Sarah, Ryladog, ssirois, vivienne, Kathy, Elle, richard, Kerstin, richard_, +1.703.983.aabb
14:54:18 [Ryladog]
ciao
14:54:24 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:54:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/29-eval-minutes.html trackbot
14:54:25 [Zakim]
-Ryladog
14:54:25 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
14:54:25 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items
14:54:26 [Zakim]
WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has ended
14:54:26 [Zakim]
Attendees were MartijnHoutepen, Don, +1.703.227.aaaa, Eric, Sarah, Ryladog, ssirois, vivienne, Kathy, Elle, richard, Kerstin, richard_, +1.703.983.aabb