13:19:33 RRSAgent has joined #rd 13:19:33 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/28-rd-irc 13:19:35 RRSAgent, make logs world 13:19:35 Zakim has joined #rd 13:19:37 Zakim, this will be 7394 13:19:37 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_RDWG()9:30AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes 13:19:38 Meeting: Research and Development Working Group Teleconference 13:19:38 Date: 28 March 2012 13:19:47 Chair: Simon 13:20:21 shawn has changed the topic to: Scribe list: http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/scribes 13:22:08 Agenda+ Welcome & Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments) 13:22:08 Agenda+ Mobile Full Call 13:22:08 Agenda+ Current W3C Note Status 13:24:43 vivienne has joined #rd 13:26:40 sharper has joined #rd 13:26:46 agenda? 13:26:49 zakim, agenda? 13:26:49 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda: 13:26:51 1. Welcome & Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments) [from shawn] 13:26:51 2. Mobile Full Call [from shawn] 13:26:53 3. Current W3C Note Status [from shawn] 13:27:42 agenda 2 = Mobile Full Call http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Mobile 13:28:09 regrets+ O_Connor_Joshue 13:28:20 WAI_RDWG()9:30AM has now started 13:28:27 +Shawn 13:28:52 regrets+ Brajnik_Giorgio 13:29:04 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:29:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/28-rd-minutes.html shawn 13:29:30 regrets+ MCCathieNevile_Charles 13:29:52 +??P10 13:30:09 Zakim, ??P10 is me 13:30:09 +peter; got it 13:30:16 +??P11 13:30:23 Zakim, mute me 13:30:23 peter should now be muted 13:30:28 zakim, ??P11 is me 13:30:28 +sharper; got it 13:30:46 Yehya has joined #rd 13:31:07 christos has joined #rd 13:31:16 +??P12 13:31:24 zakim, ??P12 is me 13:31:24 +vivienne; got it 13:31:30 +Yehya 13:31:32 regrets+ Abou-Zahra_Shadi 13:32:01 zakim, mute me 13:32:01 vivienne should now be muted 13:33:08 scribe list & instructions: http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/scribes 13:33:17 zakim, who is on the phone? 13:33:17 On the phone I see Shawn, peter (muted), sharper, vivienne (muted), Yehya 13:33:18 markel has joined #rd 13:33:23 (will grab some tea brb :) 13:33:52 ack me 13:33:54 +??P15 13:34:41 zakim, ??P15 is markel 13:34:41 +markel; got it 13:35:51 zakim, mute me 13:35:51 vivienne should now be muted 13:36:09 agenda+ W4A - who will be there? meetup at Camp? 13:36:19 I can scribe 13:36:36 oh right - good call 13:37:08 I can scribe 13:37:28 Scribe: Markel 13:37:46 zakim, agenda? 13:37:46 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda: 13:37:47 1. Welcome & Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments) [from shawn] 13:37:47 2. Mobile Full Call http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Mobile 13:37:47 3. Current W3C Note Status [from shawn] 13:37:47 4. W4A - who will be there? meetup at Camp? [from shawn] 13:37:52 zakim, close item 1 13:37:52 agendum 1, Welcome & Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments), closed 13:37:54 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 13:37:55 2. Mobile Full Call http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Mobile 13:37:57 zakim, take up item 2 13:37:58 agendum 2. "Mobile Full Call http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Mobile" taken up 13:38:39 SH: There is a discussion about the content of "discussion" tab 13:39:11 SH: two aspects we could clear up quickly 13:39:20 SH: (1) copyright policy 13:39:42 we can put the whole copyright document or point out to the license 13:40:05 SLH: this was suggested by W3C legal council 13:40:11 q+ 13:41:06 SLH: the issue is that we are going to quote and use the papers in the note, we want to make clear that this information can be included in the note 13:42:04 SLH: when paper contribute to the discussion, we expect this will be used on the note so this extra text aimed at covering such situation 13:42:38 SH: will authors be attributed in this quoting or citation? 13:42:42 SLH: yes 13:44:30 The Contributor further agrees that any derivative works of this contribution prepared by the W3C shall be solely owned by the W3C. 13:44:51 SH: this is the bit that should go in the end of the copyright notice 13:44:52 q? 13:44:56 SH: what people think? 13:45:03 ack p 13:45:04 ack me 13:45:58 PT: would it make it easier if we publish in ACM with their copyright policies? 13:46:26 SH: we are on W3C so it seems reasonable to stay under their umbrella 13:46:37 yeliz has joined #rd 13:46:46 SLH: we can consider further options 13:47:24 SLH: but primary venue is W3C 13:47:25 Zakim, mute me 13:47:25 peter should now be muted 13:47:34 The Contributor further agrees that any derivative works of this contribution prepared by the W3C shall be solely owned by the W3C. 13:48:04 SH: my only concern about this sentence is about what "derivative work" means 13:48:22 SH: does it mean that I can put this on a conference? 13:48:38 SLH: it only covers to work prepared by the W3C 13:48:53 q+ 13:49:11 ack m 13:49:47 MV: what does this "prepare" mean? 13:49:48 +??P16 13:49:56 zakim, ??P16 is yeliz 13:49:56 +yeliz; got it 13:49:59 Sorry I am late 13:50:03 zakim, mute me 13:50:03 yeliz should now be muted 13:50:03 SLH: you could substitute it by "written" 13:50:05 Thanks 13:50:11 :-) 13:50:44 RESOLVED: we add the following test to the copyright "The Contributor further agrees that any derivative works of this contribution prepared by the W3C shall be solely owned by the W3C." 13:51:23 For one, I disagree with the statement made in the first sentence as it currently stands. It sounds too absolute. For instance, for me mobile devices are not (yet?) the primary form of accessing the Web. 13:51:23 Also the second sentence probably needs to be looked at more closely to avoid exacerbating frequent stereotypes and cliches. Are only business people in Europe 24/7 on the go? Numerically there may be more business people 24/7 on the go in India than in Europe. 13:51:23 Finally, the combination of these two (first) sentences of the Call do not give me the picture of what the rest of the Call actually covers. In fact, it seems to be going in a completely different directions. I suggest revisiting the purpose of these two sentences and, if they are deemed as essential, to consider them for the Background section. This would entail revising both sections accordingly. 13:51:40 ACTION: Shawn check if proceedings get on Google scholar 13:51:40 Created ACTION-15 - Check if proceedings get on Google scholar [on Shawn Henry - due 2012-04-04]. 13:51:52 SH: these are the bits Shadi disagrees with 13:52:21 as far as I'm concerned current proceedings are not get on Google Scholar 13:52:24 q+ 13:52:36 ack p 13:52:39 ack me 13:53:37 PT: Shadi's first comment is arguable, I'm not sure statisticswise how it is, but I'm not entirely sure...in terms of numbers I do not know 13:53:53 SH: I wrote this sentence and it is technically correct 13:54:25 PT: does it really matter? 13:56:00 q+ to suggest: Mobile devices are the primary form of accessing the Web in many places around the globe. 13:56:13 SH: I wrote some of this...I'm perfectly happy to remove...I'd like to give the idea that is not only about smartphones and solves problems of literacy or payments in Africa..there are not only accessibility problems... 13:56:34 ack me 13:56:34 shawn, you wanted to suggest: Mobile devices are the primary form of accessing the Web in many places around the globe. 13:56:36 ack s 13:56:37 Zakim, mute me 13:56:37 peter should now be muted 13:56:55 great! 13:57:12 SLH: I have a suggestion: "mobile devices are the primary way of accessing the way in many places in the world" 13:57:25 [[I think the term "primary" needs to be clarified - do we mean number of connections, time spent, work done, ...?]] 13:57:43 +1 13:57:46 SH: are we happy with that? 13:57:48 +1 13:57:49 +1 13:57:50 +1 13:57:51 +2 13:57:56 +1 13:57:57 +1 13:58:15 -1 13:58:38 I'm okay with it as it stands 13:58:46 SH:what people think about the second sentence? 13:59:04 hmm 13:59:29 slh: don't think it belongs in introduction. OK in background. 14:00:42 Sorry everybody... just as I was going to phone I received an important call and have to leave ASAP... goodbye 14:00:50 [[also suggest saying "in many situations" rather than "in many places around the world", as use of mobile devices is not really geographically based]] 14:00:56 we could say 'a major form' 14:00:58 SLH: Shadi has a concern about "primary" 14:01:15 any other word for primary? 14:01:22 major 14:01:38 I don't mind either way 14:01:45 don't see the gain - primary sounds good IMO 14:01:54 are we keeping "primary" or moving to "major" 14:01:56 important 14:02:00 primary sounds good to me as well 14:02:01 [[the question is, what do people mean by "primary" or " major"?]] 14:02:02 I don't mind 14:02:14 growing in importance? 14:02:29 SH: does anybody think that this 1st sentence is not clear? 14:02:56 q+ 14:03:01 Since the background goes into detail about the intro - think the first paragraph is good. 14:03:01 [[I could live with "primary"/"major" if we say "situations" rather than "places"]] 14:03:03 ack v 14:03:05 SH: in the developing countries it is a fact that this is the primary way 14:03:23 I agree as well 14:03:27 zakim, mute me 14:03:27 vivienne should now be muted 14:03:39 VC: my husband was working in Africa, nobody had a computer but all accessed the web via mobile phone 14:04:34 [[how about something along the lines "mobile devices are growing in importance ... in many places primary form"?]] 14:05:23 [[otherwise we risk sounding disociated with some readers]] 14:05:24 sounds like we're tweaking - vote to keep it as is 14:05:26 I agree with Simon 14:05:29 okay to leave it as it is now 14:05:37 I agree with vivienne 14:05:44 RESOLVE: the first sentence is being changed as per Shawn suggestion and the group agrees on it 14:06:03 RESOLVE: the second sentence is removed as per Shadi's email 14:06:10 aaahr 14:06:23 RESOLUTION: the first sentence is being changed as per member:Shawn suggestion and the group agrees on it 14:06:36 RESOLUTION: the second sentence is removed as per member:Shadi's email 14:06:39 q+ 14:06:46 SH: any other comments? 14:06:50 ack me 14:06:50 ack p 14:07:02 Further open research questions and ideas have been identified and we welcome contributions related to any of these too. 14:07:11 RESOLUTION: we add the following test to the copyright "The Contributor further agrees that any derivative works of this contribution prepared by the W3C shall be solely owned by the W3C". 14:07:57 PT: why are we pointing to the wiki page in the call? 14:08:26 SH: in the previous call it was to have some backing content 14:08:50 SLH: I agree with Peter, in the metrics symposium we had lots of stuff but now we don't 14:08:57 Zakim, mute me 14:08:57 peter should now be muted 14:09:05 which bit? 14:09:08 [[agree with PTs question -- should only do if we have enough content to point to]] 14:09:13 1 14:09:13 Should we delete 'Further open research questions and ideas have been identified and we welcome contributions related to any of these too. ' 14:09:14 +1 14:09:15 +1 14:09:17 +1 14:09:17 +1 14:09:18 +1 14:09:21 +1 14:09:31 q+ 14:09:38 ack p 14:09:39 RESOLUTION: we resolve to delete "Further open research questions and ideas have been identified and we welcome contributions related to any of these too" on the call 14:10:26 PT: another point, are we including apps in the call? Shall we organise a specific symposium on apps 14:10:42 I think it depends on the papers submitted 14:10:47 PT: is there any intention ingoing further 14:10:48 :) 14:11:11 SH: we have to understand what sort of papers we are getting and then decides 14:11:24 SH: the charter ends by the end of June 14:11:55 SH: it is unlikely that in the following 5-6 seminars we revisit the topic 14:12:10 SH: however, if we are re-chartered that is feasible 14:12:38 +1 for making clear this include applications 14:12:51 [[I think the sentence "Also the complexity of the web content and applications provided via mobile devices has become increasingly sophisticated" alludes to apps being part of the Call]] 14:13:20 Do we want to add it to backgorund? 14:13:32 for example, this sentence = The mobile world is rapidly evolving with increasingly sophisticated devices, platforms, APIs, and web browsers= 14:13:34 PT: mobile web applications are still new... 14:13:39 [[we did not get into the discussion of web-based vs native apps though, this could be one of the specific questions]] 14:13:44 can be changed =The mobile world is rapidly evolving with increasingly sophisticated devices, platforms, APIs, applications and web browsers= 14:14:18 I mean we can go through this call and make sure add applications 14:14:24 SH: this is the exciting part...we don't want to lose the "application" aspects 14:14:42 "applications" are referenced 14:14:58 SH: this is what we definitely want to do will potentially produce lots of research 14:15:13 PT: I can think about that and reflect on the wiki 14:15:51 q+ to say from the Background section, delete "The symposium will be held on 30 May 2012; paper deadline will close on 18 April 2012." (repeated from intro) 14:15:55 ack 14:15:56 SH: if we have a sentence just now that'd be great so that we can resolve it today 14:15:56 Zakim, mute me 14:15:56 peter should now be muted 14:15:57 ack me 14:15:57 acj=k sh 14:15:57 shawn, you wanted to say from the Background section, delete "The symposium will be held on 30 May 2012; paper deadline will close on 18 April 2012." (repeated from intro) 14:16:18 SLH: there is some repeated content 14:16:23 +1 14:16:25 +1 14:16:26 +1 14:16:27 +1 14:16:29 zakim, unmute yeliz 14:16:29 yeliz should no longer be muted 14:16:32 +1 14:17:17 YY: I agree with PT's comment, he is right, web apps are becoming more popular..why don'y we make sure that the word app is evident? 14:17:18 [[ Background second sentence already has: Also the complexity of the web content and applications ...]] 14:17:33 let's do that 14:17:34 +1 14:17:36 +1 14:17:37 +1 14:17:52 YY: background 1st sentence 14:18:04 zakim, mute yeliz 14:18:04 yeliz should now be muted 14:18:12 zakim, unmute yeliz 14:18:12 yeliz should no longer be muted 14:18:23 YY: objectives - research questions 14:18:36 [[I suggest adding a question relating to apps too, for example what accessibility support is provided in native vs web-based mobile apps]] 14:18:42 yup 14:19:03 good one Shadi 14:19:08 [ laughter as Simon replies to shadi ;) 14:19:09 Yes peter is working on thsi now 14:19:53 zakim, mute yeliz 14:19:53 yeliz should now be muted 14:20:11 Is there any work in W3C regarding mobile Web applications that we need to list? 14:20:23 sorry, we got that 14:20:24 http://www.w3.org/TR/mwabp/ 14:20:25 :) 14:20:29 How about this for sentence one Objectives and ..: The primary objective of this symposium is to gather, analyze, and discuss practical experience with mobile web accessibility with an emphasis on content and applications. 14:20:51 Also under the research points could we add a bullet about Preferences/Personalization? 14:20:58 SLH: can we get rid of acronyms? 14:21:11 I agree, we should write this in full the first time 14:21:23 write out acronyms in the background 14:21:31 (But programmers love acronyms!! :) 14:21:36 zakim, unmute yeliz 14:21:36 yeliz should no longer be muted 14:21:52 zakim, mute yeliz 14:21:52 yeliz should now be muted 14:22:00 Shawn, while simon is editing the text 14:22:05 I just wanted to say 14:22:06 [[do not particularly like the "emphasis" approach -- seems excluding to other potential contributions]] 14:22:09 he have invited Henny 14:22:14 but haven;t received a response 14:22:31 do you have her BBC email address? 14:22:37 to be a scientific committee member 14:23:06 that would be great 14:23:07 SLH: if you want to, I can give you her BBC adrdess, it'll be great to have her 14:23:12 I agree with you 14:23:15 I tried this address: henny@iheni.com 14:23:21 but haven't heard from her 14:23:29 Mobile Web Application Best Practices 14:23:33 Mobile Web Application Best Practices 14:24:06 s/henny@iheni.com/ / 14:24:11 SH: acronyms changed in the background... 14:24:33 SH: any other changes? 14:24:43 Upps, sorry shawn 14:24:48 q? 14:24:55 I did not think about the minutes will be recorded :( 14:25:02 RESOLUTION: the group agrees on the call for papers apart from the dates 14:25:35 SLH: once we change the dates when do we think this'll be going? 14:25:43 SLH: maybe next week 14:26:03 SH: I don't to rush anybody, it will gives some days to decide on 14:26:13 zakim, agenda? 14:26:13 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda: 14:26:14 2. Mobile Full Call http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Mobile 14:26:14 3. Current W3C Note Status [from shawn] 14:26:14 4. W4A - who will be there? meetup at Camp? [from shawn] 14:26:46 zakim, take up next item 14:26:46 agendum 3. "Current W3C Note Status" taken up [from shawn] 14:27:16 [[I really suggest "Mobile devices are the primary form of accessing the Web in many places around the globe" -> "Mobile devices are becoming increasingly important and are already the primary form of accessing the Web in many parts of the world"]] 14:27:33 SLH: Editors have sent the HTML version to Shadi? 14:27:46 yes, please 14:28:07 Markel: Yes. Although not sure if decided how to reference the papers. 14:28:17 sure 14:28:54 sure 14:28:54 s/yes, please/yes, thanks 14:28:54 OK with 'Mobile devices are becoming increasingly important and are already the primary form of accessing the Web in many parts of the world' 14:28:54 didn't we agree that "primary" was backed by evidence? 14:28:54 +1 14:28:54 +1 14:28:54 +1 14:28:56 +1 14:29:18 I don't really see how this improves the text 14:29:22 but I am ok 14:29:32 zakim, take up item 4 14:29:32 agendum 4. "W4A - who will be there? meetup at Camp?" taken up [from shawn] 14:29:38 +1 14:29:39 I will 14:29:41 [[ don't really love "Mobile devices are becoming increasingly important " but Ok with it ]] 14:29:41 I'll be there 14:29:42 +1 14:29:46 I'll be there 14:29:54 Will be there but fashionably late Monday morning 14:29:59 lol 14:30:02 NOOOO 14:30:25 I'll be there for Wednesday at least :( 14:30:29 drinks are every night 14:30:33 [[markel: both statements are technically the same but trying to be less confusing -- just an attempt, happy to try other wording to that same effect]] 14:30:33 lol 14:30:41 I'll be in that 14:31:10 +q 14:31:26 ack m 14:31:39 Markel is General Chair of W4A 14:31:46 Markel++ 14:32:16 q+ to ask goals 14:32:38 q+ to ask outreach? just f2f gelling? 14:32:39 ack me 14:32:39 shawn, you wanted to ask goals and to ask outreach? just f2f gelling? 14:32:39 ack sh 14:32:57 q+ 14:33:18 q- 14:33:26 I'm staying for the week (getting in on Friday night) so anything if fine with me 14:33:46 oops, 'is' 14:34:04 q+ 14:34:06 SLH: If outreach, then good to do something during the camp. 14:35:06 q- 14:35:07 Markel: maybe Tuesday evening 14:35:18 Can I bring my daughter 14:35:21 to this dinner 14:35:21 it's totally unofficial 14:35:21 :) 14:35:24 sounds good to me 14:35:27 She will have new ideas 14:35:28 :) 14:35:31 SH: RDWG dinner - open to annyone 14:35:37 :) 14:35:41 +1 14:35:44 +1 14:35:45 great 14:35:47 +1 14:35:48 +1 14:36:04 :) 14:36:27 Impressive work Simon getting the call done-ish! 14:36:52 ttyl 14:36:52 okay, bye 14:36:56 vivienne has left #rd 14:36:57 markel has left #rd 14:36:57 ACTION: Shawn consider "announcing": "come meet up with RDWG folks at dinner on Tue" 14:36:57 Created ACTION-16 - Consider "announcing": "come meet up with RDWG folks at dinner on Tue" [on Shawn Henry - due 2012-04-04]. 14:37:00 -vivienne 14:37:01 -Yehya 14:37:02 -peter 14:37:02 -sharper 14:37:03 -markel 14:37:05 -Shawn 14:37:05 re call: can i propose "to discuss these difficulties and possible solutions" -> "to discuss these challenges and possible solutions" 14:37:26 yes, please to Shadi's suggestion 14:37:42 change difficulties to challenges 14:37:43 Thanks Shadi 14:37:48 ^^^ simon 14:38:46 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:38:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/28-rd-minutes.html shawn 14:39:40 changed to challenges 14:39:48 thanks! 14:39:54 No problem Shadi. 14:39:57 See you next week 14:40:10 trackbot, end meeting 14:40:10 Zakim, list attendees 14:40:10 As of this point the attendees have been Shawn, peter, sharper, vivienne, Yehya, markel, yeliz 14:40:18 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 14:40:18