15:52:53 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dnt
15:52:53 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/28-dnt-irc
15:53:12 <aleecia> Zakim, this is dnt
15:53:12 <Zakim> aleecia, this was already T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM
15:53:13 <Zakim> ok, aleecia; that matches T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM
15:53:23 <aleecia> chair: aleecia
15:53:26 <aleecia> agenda?
15:53:43 <aleecia> zakim, clear agenda
15:53:43 <Zakim> agenda cleared
15:54:12 <aleecia> agenda+ Selection of scribe
15:54:33 <npdoty> npdoty has joined #dnt
15:54:33 <aleecia> agenda+ Any comments on minutes:  http://www.w3.org/2012/03/21-dnt-minutes
15:54:53 <tl> tl has joined #dnt
15:54:53 <aleecia> agenda+ Discussion and feedback on Draft Agenda for our Face2Face
15:55:18 <aleecia> agenda+ Review of overdue action items: https://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/overdue
15:55:40 <Zakim> + +1.408.223.aaaa
15:56:03 <Zakim> +npdoty
15:56:08 <aleecia> agenda+ Discussion of a template for combined proposals on parties and business uses
15:56:21 <npdoty> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:56:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see aleecia, +1.408.223.aaaa, npdoty
15:56:21 <aleecia> agenda+ Deeper discussion of issue-22. 
15:56:25 <Zakim> +tl
15:56:44 <aleecia> agenda+ Responses: Header & URI 
15:56:58 <aleecia> agenda+ ISSUES 111, 129, 130 on site-specific exceptions
15:57:09 <aleecia> agenda+ Announce next meeting & adjourn
15:57:13 <Zakim> +dsriedel
15:57:16 <aleecia> (sound quality is sad, Tom)
15:57:20 <dsriedel> zakim, mute me
15:57:20 <Zakim> dsriedel should now be muted
15:57:43 <dsriedel> agenda?
15:57:43 <aleecia> agenda?
15:58:05 <tl> aleecia: Do I sound underwater, in a windstorm, in an auditorium, or what?
15:58:31 <Bil> Bil has joined #dnt
15:58:47 <eberkower> eberkower has joined #dnt
15:58:51 <ninjamarnau> ninjamarnau has joined #dnt
15:58:53 <Zakim> +ninjamarnau
15:59:19 <Zakim> +efelten
15:59:29 <jchester2> jchester2 has joined #dnt
15:59:32 <efelten> efelten has joined #dnt
15:59:36 <Zakim> +??P37
15:59:37 <sidstamm> sidstamm has joined #dnt
15:59:50 <Zakim> + +1.646.654.aabb
15:59:50 <johnsimpson> johnsimpson has joined #dnt
15:59:54 <Zakim> + +1.215.286.aacc
16:00:03 <sidstamm> aleecia, I can't make the call today (other teleconf at the same time), but I'll monitor this channel
16:00:09 <Zakim> +jchester2
16:00:14 <aleecia> regrets+ sidstamm
16:00:16 <schunter> schunter has joined #dnt
16:00:18 <aleecia> thanks, Sid
16:00:24 <npdoty> Zakim, ??P37 is schunter
16:00:24 <Zakim> +schunter; got it
16:00:29 <npdoty> Zakim, aabb is eberkower
16:00:30 <Zakim> +eberkower; got it
16:00:31 <aleecia> that means you want to scribe, right? :-)
16:00:39 <Zakim> +[Apple]
16:00:43 <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
16:00:46 <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
16:00:47 <sidstamm> tough to scribe if I can't hear the phone line.  ;-)
16:00:57 <aleecia> you won't make any mistakes :-)
16:01:18 <efelten> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:01:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see aleecia, +1.408.223.aaaa, npdoty, tl, dsriedel (muted), ninjamarnau, efelten, schunter, eberkower, +1.215.286.aacc, jchester2, [Apple]
16:01:21 <Zakim> [Apple] has dsinger
16:01:53 <aleecia> Welcome, Jason and Bil.
16:01:59 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:02:01 <Zakim> +johnsimpson
16:02:11 <johnsimpson> zakim. mute me
16:02:11 <Zakim> +justin_
16:02:12 <npdoty> Zakim, aaaa is Bil
16:02:13 <Zakim> +Bil; got it
16:02:22 <Lia> Lia has joined #dnt
16:02:23 <aleecia> zakim, mute johnsimpson
16:02:23 <Zakim> johnsimpson should now be muted
16:02:25 <npdoty> Zakim, aacc is jason
16:02:25 <Zakim> +jason; got it
16:02:27 <Zakim> + +1.866.317.aadd
16:02:39 <Zakim> - +1.866.317.aadd
16:02:39 <aleecia> (period does not work, comma does. Zakim is fussy.)
16:02:41 <fielding> fielding has joined #dnt
16:02:46 <jmayer> jmayer has joined #dnt
16:02:58 <alex> alex has joined #dnt
16:03:09 <npdoty> Chair: schunter
16:03:10 <Zakim> + +1.866.317.aaee
16:03:15 <aleecia> agenda?
16:03:18 <npdoty> Meeting: Tracking Protection Working Group teleconference
16:03:35 <Zakim> + +1.202.695.aaff
16:03:36 <aleecia> next agendum
16:03:45 <Zakim> + +1.813.366.aagg
16:03:47 <Zakim> + +1.917.934.aahh
16:03:54 <Zakim> + +1.202.835.aaii
16:03:56 <Zakim> +jmayer
16:04:09 <Zakim> + +1.425.214.aajj
16:04:13 <aleecia> thank you!
16:04:13 <Zakim> +alex
16:04:14 <hwest> hwest has joined #dnt
16:04:19 <npdoty> scribenick: jmayer
16:04:23 <Zakim> + +1.202.346.aakk
16:04:28 <aleecia> close agendum 1
16:04:33 <Jason> Jason has joined #dnt
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16:04:49 <Zakim> + +1.617.733.aall
16:04:49 <npdoty> (if you're calling in now, please associate your name with Zakim)
16:04:53 <Zakim> + +1.617.733.aamm
16:04:56 <aleecia> close agendum 2
16:05:05 <jmayer> schunter: any comments on minutes?
16:05:05 <dsinger> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:05:10 <jmayer> ... silence
16:05:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see aleecia, Bil, npdoty, tl, dsriedel (muted), ninjamarnau, efelten, schunter, eberkower, jason, jchester2, [Apple], [IPcaller], johnsimpson (muted), justin_,
16:05:15 <Zakim> ... +1.866.317.aaee, +1.202.695.aaff, +1.813.366.aagg, +1.917.934.aahh, +1.202.835.aaii, jmayer, +1.425.214.aajj, alex, +1.202.346.aakk, +1.617.733.aall, +1.617.733.aamm
16:05:17 <Zakim> [Apple] has dsinger
16:05:34 <marc> marc has joined #dnt
16:05:36 <jmayer> aleecia: have been working on dc meeting agenda
16:05:49 <jmayer> ... still more to nail down
16:05:52 <laurengelman> laurengelman has joined #dnt
16:06:03 <fielding> npdoty, no, I am in France, and unfamiliar with the office phones
16:06:12 <jmayer> ... tuesday: where we are, where we're going; compliance
16:06:17 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:06:20 <jmayer> ... wednesday: compliance
16:06:29 <bryan> bryan has joined #dnt
16:06:30 <jmayer> ... thursday: preference expression
16:06:38 <tl> fielding, I'm calling from my Google account.
16:06:45 <bryan> present+ Bryan_Sullivan
16:06:47 <JC> JC has joined #DNT
16:06:49 <cOlsen> cOlsen has joined #dnt
16:06:58 <Adam> Adam has joined #dnt
16:07:03 <ac> ac has joined #dnt
16:07:14 <jmayer> ... any comments?
16:07:16 <bryan> location?
16:07:27 <tl> zakim, mut me
16:07:27 <Zakim> I don't understand 'mut me', tl
16:07:33 <Zakim> + +1.202.326.aann
16:07:34 <tl> zakim, mute me
16:07:34 <Zakim> tl should now be muted
16:07:42 <Zakim> + +1.646.666.aaoo
16:07:45 <jmayer> ... location soon, expect to be able to announce today
16:07:58 <Zakim> + +1.206.369.aapp
16:08:04 <Lia> Zakim, aaff is me
16:08:04 <Zakim> +Lia; got it
16:08:15 <aleecia> zakim, mute me
16:08:16 <Zakim> aleecia should now be muted
16:08:23 <jmayer> schunter: review of overdue actions
16:08:30 <aleecia> close agendum 3
16:08:35 <tedleung> tedleung has joined #dnt
16:08:39 <adrianba> adrianba has joined #dnt
16:08:44 <jmayer> ... ACTION-26 review
16:08:45 <hwest> Zakim, aakk is me
16:08:45 <Zakim> +hwest; got it
16:08:46 <aleecia> unmute me
16:09:08 <aleecia> zakim, unmute me
16:09:09 <Zakim> aleecia should no longer be muted
16:09:26 <Zakim> + +44.142.864.aaqq
16:09:51 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
16:09:56 <WileyS> WileyS has joined #DNT
16:10:01 <ksmith> ksmith has joined #DNT
16:10:04 <jmayer> ... Taking off since Karl isn't on calls anymore.
16:10:05 <chapell> chapell has joined #DNT
16:10:14 <JC> Amy is out today
16:10:22 <adrianba> zakim, [Microsoft.a] is me
16:10:22 <Zakim> +adrianba; got it
16:10:40 <Zakim> + +015654aarr
16:10:50 <fielding> Zakim, aarr is fieding
16:10:50 <Zakim> +fieding; got it
16:10:51 <jmayer> ... ACTION-104 
16:10:52 <Zakim> + +1.646.395.aass
16:11:03 <jmayer> aleecia: amy's thinking is no text
16:11:22 <jmayer> schunter: ACTION-120
16:11:47 <jmayer> alex: need more time
16:12:00 <Vinay> Vinay has joined #dnt
16:12:26 <aleecia> thanks, Jeff
16:12:44 <ifette> ifette has joined #dnt
16:12:45 <npdoty> action-120 due April 4
16:12:45 <trackbot> ACTION-120 Write a proposal on web-wide exception API (for ISSUE-113) (with npdoty) due date now April 4
16:12:48 <ifette> Zakim, bridge?
16:12:48 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, ifette.
16:12:54 <npdoty> Zakim, code?
16:12:54 <Zakim> the conference code is 87225 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), npdoty
16:12:54 <jmayer> schunter: recommend getting done before f2f, start with an outline
16:12:58 <npdoty> alex, great!
16:13:07 <jmayer> ... ACTION-123?
16:13:12 <ksmith> I have been out for a couple of weeks.  Has the dial in # changed?  I keep getting a 'disconnected' error
16:13:14 <jmayer> jchester2: working, will report back
16:13:24 <tl> unmute me
16:13:30 <npdoty> Zakim, unmute tl
16:13:30 <Zakim> tl should no longer be muted
16:13:34 <Adam_> Adam_ has joined #dnt
16:13:58 <WileyS> Zakim, aass is WileyS
16:13:58 <Zakim> +WileyS; got it
16:14:13 <jmayer> schunter: ACTION-139?
16:14:28 <Zakim> + +1.404.978.aatt
16:14:38 <jmayer> tl: working on ACTION-139, ACTION-145
16:14:47 <mischat> mischat has joined #dnt
16:14:54 <Zakim> + +385221aauu
16:15:03 <jmayer> schunter: ACTION-141?
16:15:03 <Zakim> +Cyril_Concolato
16:15:09 <Zakim> - +1.404.978.aatt
16:15:14 <aleecia> Jeff, again due wednesday for 123?
16:15:16 <jmayer> ... no rigo, will reach out
16:15:17 <tl> Apologies for audio zakim, mute me
16:15:17 <aleecia> Jeff, action-123 is now a week out
16:15:19 <aleecia> zakim, mute me
16:15:19 <Zakim> aleecia should now be muted
16:15:22 <aleecia> kevin, no change on the call in number.
16:15:22 <vincent> vincent has joined #dnt
16:15:23 <aleecia> Nick may be able to help Kevin?
16:15:32 <jmayer> schunter: ACTION-145?
16:15:32 <Zakim> + +1.404.978.aavv
16:15:37 <ifette> Zakim, aavv is ifette
16:15:37 <Zakim> +ifette; got it
16:16:01 <aleecia> zakim, unmute me
16:16:01 <Zakim> aleecia should no longer be muted
16:16:15 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
16:16:30 <amyc> amyc has joined #DNT
16:16:37 <aleecia> :-)
16:16:40 <tl> zakim, mute me
16:16:40 <Zakim> tl should now be muted
16:16:51 <jmayer> schunter: ACTION-150?
16:17:04 <Zakim> -ifette
16:17:13 <aleecia> Note that 2 weeks is during f2f
16:17:23 <aleecia> You could do 1 week, or 3, and I'd believe it
16:17:26 <WileyS> Ninja - agree that this should be handled in the companion document
16:17:27 <jmayer> ninjamarnau: need more time to work with shane
16:17:41 <npdoty> Ninja, can we try to do this in 1 week so we can discuss text at f2f?
16:18:01 <jmayer> schunter: done with review of action items
16:18:09 <Zakim> +ifette
16:18:26 <ninjamarnau> ndoty, yes. thank you. I forgot that the f2f is this soon.
16:18:48 <tl> Netlag is the new jetlag, for all the cool kids.
16:18:52 <ifette> rrsagent, bookmark?
16:18:52 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/03/28-dnt-irc#T16-18-52
16:18:53 <jmayer> schunter: handing to aleecia to work on compliance
16:19:02 <ifette> rrsagent, make logs member
16:19:03 <schunter> Voice quality is also poor for me (incoming)
16:19:10 <jmayer> aleecia: sent template for cross-issue proposals to list
16:19:30 <jmayer> ... idea is combination of proposals around parties and operational use
16:19:51 <npdoty> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2012Mar/0434.html
16:19:58 <jmayer> ... questions?  things to add?
16:20:24 <jmayer> ... first part: parties
16:20:36 <jmayer> ... ok to copy and paste from other proposals
16:21:08 <jmayer> ... issues: how large is a party?  what is a first party?
16:21:19 <jmayer> ... what a first party must/must not do, what a third party must/must not do
16:22:15 <jmayer> ... comments?
16:22:56 <jmayer> ... unless anyone says otherwise, to be clear, the section on third parties only applies to third parties
16:23:29 <jmayer> +q
16:23:47 <jmayer> ... reviewing points of decision
16:23:50 <npdoty> ack jmayer 
16:23:50 <schunter> q?
16:24:06 <ninjamarnau> why is B only referring to retention limitations?
16:24:08 <npdoty> jmayer: thinking about this set of design decisions, I very much like the approach
16:24:18 <jchester2> +q
16:24:18 <aleecia> aleecia has joined #dnt
16:24:32 <npdoty> ... not quite a "business use"
16:24:55 <npdoty> ... talk about an exception for data that can't be linked to a user's browsing
16:25:00 <npdoty> ... a lot of support for that
16:25:35 <npdoty> ... not a list of blanket/narrow exceptions, but purposes you couldn't accomplish with unlinkable data
16:25:59 <tl> Makes sense to me
16:26:00 <tl> +1
16:26:10 <npdoty> ... for financial logging, for example, which people are talking about as being very useful, would also want to see why it can't be accomplished with unlinkable data
16:26:52 <amyc> can we get definition of unlinkable with examples?
16:26:56 <npdoty> aleecia: looking at A through C, could add another category for "allowed but only if unlinkable", or add an 8th exception
16:27:00 <WileyS> WileyS has joined #DNT
16:27:02 <tl> +q
16:27:41 <npdoty> jmayer: a cross-cutting exception because it doesn't raise serious privacy concerns (whatever purpose is fine)
16:27:44 <bryan> can we define unlinkable?
16:27:49 <alex> Can you define unlinkable
16:28:00 <alex> funny!
16:28:16 <bryan> i hope that is not the def...
16:28:20 <npdoty> ... and second noting it as a design choice for each point on the list
16:28:30 <npdoty> q?
16:28:35 <bryan> q+
16:28:38 <ninjamarnau> unlinkability could be a sufficient option. But I do not agree that ANY purpose would be fine. Purpose limitation is still necessary imo.
16:28:53 <Zakim> - +1.866.317.aaee
16:29:00 <npdoty> ack jchester
16:29:11 <johnsimpson> zakim, unmute me
16:29:11 <Zakim> johnsimpson should no longer be muted
16:29:33 <aleecia> aleecia has joined #dnt
16:29:37 <npdoty> q?
16:29:41 <ifette> q+
16:29:45 <dsinger> q+
16:30:00 <jmayer> jchester2: What are the impacts for legal compliance?
16:30:09 <bryan> the term unlinkable does not yet exist in the TCS. "unidentifiable" is used but not defined.
16:30:22 <sidstamm> sidstamm has joined #dnt
16:30:29 <Zakim> -WileyS
16:30:30 <fielding> q+
16:30:38 <jmayer> bryan, then let's define it - see FTC report, DAA multi-site principles
16:31:33 <npdoty> jchester2, are there particular problems you see that you think will trip us up for EU jurisdictions?
16:31:36 <jmayer> jchester2: Need clarity on what EU law requires.
16:31:43 <bryan> is there some text you could propose and reference?
16:32:44 <Zakim> + +1.646.395.aaww
16:33:07 <npdoty> aleecia: have asked several times and haven't had pushback from EU that 1st/3rd won't work at all, just perhaps that there would be additional requirements
16:33:15 <ninjamarnau> jchester2, I don't think that our 1st and 3rd party approach is generally not acceptable. But it sure is a problem that our 3rd parties are controllers as well as processors.
16:33:21 <dsinger> q?
16:33:24 <tl> ack tl
16:33:38 <aleecia> huzzah IRC back
16:34:21 <npdoty> scribenick: tl
16:34:27 <npdoty> scribenick: npdoty
16:34:29 <dsinger> if we mean by "unlinkable data" data that can't be associated with a person, it's not an exception, it's not even in scope, surely?
16:34:55 <jmayer> dsinger, why wouldn't it be in scope?
16:34:55 <npdoty> tl: I like the idea, having a first exception be unlinkable data can really improve the clarity of the document
16:35:13 <jchester2> Ninja:  Thanks.  We need EU clarification on so-called first parties. 
16:35:14 <npdoty> bryan: we would need to define unidentified and unlinkability 
16:35:28 <dsinger> because if it's data that's not associated with a person, it's no longer 'tracking' anyone
16:35:36 <npdoty> ... jmayer pointed to FTC and DAA documents, but we need to be sure we have an understanding and a definition
16:35:53 <npdoty> ifette: Art29 v FTC and these definitions
16:36:09 <tl> +1
16:36:27 <npdoty> ... get something out the door that offers users meaningful choice, if that satisfies regulatory requirements then great, but our primary goal shouldn't be satisfying such a regime
16:36:30 <JC> +1
16:36:34 <dsinger> +1
16:36:37 <tl> +1 to: we're building a tool for users. If that satisfies some regulatory regime, great.
16:36:42 <jchester2> The meaningful benefit should be an effective DNT regime
16:36:49 <dsinger> let's be mutually informed, but not wedded!
16:36:51 <npdoty> aleecia: agree, regulatory requirements are useful to have in mind, but not determinant of our work
16:37:23 <npdoty> ... implications of different regulatory regimes are large and so we should talk about them, but we may choose to go our own way
16:37:28 <jmayer> +q
16:37:35 <npdoty> q- bryan
16:37:38 <npdoty> q- ifette
16:37:40 <npdoty> ack dsinger 
16:38:01 <npdoty> dsinger: in Brussels we had a discussion of alternative models to 1st/3rd
16:38:18 <npdoty> ... we don't seem to have explored these further since, when should we do that?
16:38:40 <npdoty> aleecia: this is a great time to write up those alternative proposals (in this form) if interested
16:38:58 <npdoty> ... in Brussels moved to walk down the 1st/3rd path unless/until it fails
16:39:16 <aleecia> aleecia has joined #dnt
16:39:26 <dsinger> ok. thx
16:39:29 <npdoty> ... if you want to write an alternate proposal, go right ahead
16:39:32 <aleecia> ack fielding
16:39:42 <johnsimpson> q?
16:40:01 <npdoty> fielding: 3rd-acting-as-1st important to me in the template itself, hard for me to evaluate otherwise
16:40:20 <jmayer> +q
16:40:28 <npdoty> aleecia: case to bundle one more piece, though I've been trying to keep this as simple as possible
16:40:31 <npdoty> ack jmayer 
16:40:39 <aleecia> ack jmayer
16:40:51 <fielding> jmayer, because I won't agree to third party restrictions on outsourced services
16:41:25 <npdoty> jmayer: three options for each business use, could add "allowed under the unlinkable exception"
16:41:41 <ninjamarnau> +1
16:41:50 <alex> q+
16:41:53 <npdoty> ... but rather than just a retention limit, there might be other limits -- part of a broader design space
16:42:33 <npdoty> ... not so rigid that retention limits are the only limits on an exception
16:42:42 <amyc> q+
16:43:07 <npdoty> aleecia: can use Part C of the template for that, restrictions may vary across each business use
16:44:14 <npdoty> jmayer: buckets of 1) never do it, 2) do it without limits, 3) unlinkable only, 4) customized set of limits
16:44:16 <ifette> Maybe we should just see a proposal and what people write they write...
16:44:35 <aleecia> here's what I think I'm changing to the template: (1) "unlinkable" to the list of 7 uses; (1) "unlinkable" as a method similar to retention; adding agent of a first party
16:44:35 <aleecia> and adding a note that proposals that are not 1st/3rd party are also fine
16:45:03 <jmayer> my pragmatic concern is that it'll be difficult to compare proposals
16:45:07 <alex> q-
16:45:10 <jmayer> they'll be text-heavy
16:45:13 <WileyS> WileyS has joined #DNT
16:45:26 <ifette> q?
16:45:32 <npdoty> ack amyc 
16:46:03 <npdoty> amyc: want to support what jmayer said, don't want to get too rigid about A/B/C, may include A/B/C just to make it easier to compare
16:47:29 <jmayer> scribenick: jmayer
16:47:42 <jmayer> aleecia: circling back to unlinkable data
16:47:58 <npdoty> did jmayer volunteer?
16:48:01 <dsinger> q+
16:48:12 <npdoty> ack dsinger 
16:48:14 <tl> I think jmayer volunteered?
16:48:40 <tl> +q
16:49:05 <tl> zakim, unmute me
16:49:05 <Zakim> tl was not muted, tl
16:49:07 <npdoty> action: mayer to draft a permitted use/definition for unlinkable data
16:49:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-153 - Draft a permitted use/definition for unlinkable data [on Jonathan Mayer - due 2012-04-04].
16:49:08 <WileyS> WileyS has joined #DNT
16:49:14 <dsinger> ok
16:49:20 <ninjamarnau> unlinkable is the same as unidentifiable
16:49:26 <ninjamarnau> not
16:49:27 <bryan> I would ask that the definition address these questions: Does "link" mean an association with a specific individual or device (whether the identity of that individual/device is real or not), or a limited group of individuals or devices, or a class of individuals or devices, etc? How far away from an real individual or device is the ability to "link" significant?
16:49:30 <jmayer> dsinger: Is unlinkable data in scope?
16:49:31 <bryan> q+
16:49:46 <ninjamarnau> unlinkable is the NOT same as unidentifiable
16:50:06 <npdoty> ack tl 
16:50:12 <bryan> How is unlinkable is the NOT same as unidentifiable?
16:50:15 <jmayer> aleecia: We've been discussing the boundaries of unlinkable data, will work on text.
16:50:21 <WileyS> Breaking up badly
16:50:24 <johnsimpson> tl, breaking up badly
16:50:30 <ifette> tom, more bandwidth!
16:50:39 <npdoty> ack bryan 
16:51:05 <tl> As we said in Santa Clara: you can have data about people, but which cannot be linked to a particular person. This is hard.
16:51:06 <jmayer> bryan: need precision in the definition
16:51:15 <tl> zakim, mute me.
16:51:15 <Zakim> tl should now be muted
16:51:21 <Lia> pages 20-22 of the FTC report discusses de-identified data
16:51:27 <jmayer> ... question: how unlinkable?
16:51:31 <npdoty> q?
16:51:39 <tl> zakim, increase my audio quality
16:51:39 <Zakim> I don't understand 'increase my audio quality', tl
16:51:39 <ninjamarnau> q+
16:51:54 <npdoty> ack ninjamarnau 
16:51:56 <tl> zakim, please add more fuel to the internet furnaces
16:51:56 <Zakim> I don't understand you, tl
16:51:57 <jmayer> action: draft an unlinkable data/unidentifiable data/pick favorite term exception
16:51:57 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - draft
16:52:07 <jmayer> action: jmayer to draft an unlinkable data/unidentifiable data/pick favorite term exception
16:52:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-154 - Draft an unlinkable data/unidentifiable data/pick favorite term exception [on Jonathan Mayer - due 2012-04-04].
16:52:12 <npdoty> action-153?
16:52:12 <trackbot> ACTION-153 -- Jonathan Mayer to draft a permitted use/definition for unlinkable data -- due 2012-04-04 -- OPEN
16:52:12 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/153
16:52:37 <tl> +1
16:52:51 <npdoty> q?
16:53:03 <bryan> is "ease of linking" really a factor in linkability?
16:53:07 <jmayer> ninjamarnau: some possible different meaning in eu
16:53:21 <laurengelman> what about the ftc text?
16:53:36 <jmayer> aleecia: another thing to think about - aggregation at the time of collection
16:53:37 <jmayer> +q
16:53:47 <bryan> if I can break SSL I can probably correlate data... is a prohibition against linkability really achievable ?
16:53:53 <jmayer> +q
16:53:54 <alex> ninja: is there a size related with the buckets you mentioned?
16:54:09 <jmayer> -q
16:54:09 <ifette> Depends on the data being collected -- e.g. cookies may be set to "optout" but IP addresses still sent, etc
16:54:43 <jmayer> aleecia: will work on revisions to template
16:54:53 <npdoty> volunteers to write proposals?
16:54:59 <Zakim> -ifette
16:55:04 <vincent> vincent has joined #dnt
16:55:28 <dsinger> I hope to write up "issues with 1st/3rd that are different or gone with x-site"
16:55:35 <johnsimpson> i plan to something
16:55:47 <Zakim> - +1.202.326.aann
16:55:47 <jmayer> sure, i'll paste together what i've already written
16:55:48 <WileyS> Yes
16:56:16 <npdoty> thanks to volunteers!
16:56:32 <johnsimpson> should be different views  :) 
16:56:55 <Lia> Bryan, according to the FTC the ease of linking is a factor - based on whether data can be "reasonably" linked 
16:57:18 <npdoty> aleecia: not defining compromise by who gives up what, instead looking for something that everyone can live with
16:57:52 <jmayer> ... would like to see some details on use cases
16:58:30 <jmayer> ... example: research and surveys split apart
16:58:56 <npdoty> q?
16:59:08 <jmayer> ... comments?
16:59:20 <jmayer> schunter: moving to tpe
16:59:27 <npdoty> topic: Tracking Preference Expression doc
16:59:58 <npdoty> tl, are you able to talk?
16:59:58 <tl> zakim, unmute me
16:59:58 <Zakim> tl should no longer be muted
17:00:08 <npdoty> yes, clearly
17:00:14 <johnsimpson> yes
17:00:42 <jmayer> tl: a problem when working on response header and uri
17:01:01 <jmayer> ... first problem: opt-in status
17:01:31 <fielding> huh?
17:01:41 <jmayer> ... response header will handle per-request, static status resource can't
17:02:35 <npdoty> I assumed that agents would continue to send cookies on fetching the tracking status resource
17:02:40 <jmayer> fielding: don't think there's a problem
17:02:49 <jmayer> ... browsers will still send cookies
17:02:58 <jmayer> tl: ok, resolved
17:03:03 <npdoty> my concern is that not every technique will use cookies for identification
17:03:12 <jmayer> ... second problem is related, solved
17:03:38 <sidstamm> sidstamm has left #dnt
17:04:35 <npdoty> valid for *at least* 24 hours, in many cases the caching would be much longer, right?
17:04:41 <jmayer> tl: must have a status resource, could be static or dynamically generated, expect it to be an upper bound on tracking, valid for at least 24
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17:06:10 <schunter> q?
17:06:13 <fielding> designer, we already do
17:06:16 <jmayer> tl: if parameter changes, have to reload the resource
17:06:34 <Zakim> -dsriedel
17:06:40 <npdoty> q+
17:06:49 <fielding> s/designer/dsinger/
17:06:50 <jmayer> tl: anything we're missing?
17:07:02 <Zakim> -Bil
17:07:12 <jmayer> npdoty: what about trackers that don't use cookies?
17:07:25 <jmayer> +q
17:07:30 <npdoty> ack npdoty 
17:07:35 <Zakim> -hwest
17:08:06 <jmayer> tl: for fingerprinting, could use ip + ua, more would be difficult
17:08:25 <WileyS> In mobile
17:08:39 <Zakim> - +1.617.733.aall
17:08:48 <jmayer> +q
17:09:07 <npdoty> WileyS, do you have specific details on the mobile context?
17:09:21 <jmayer> easy fix - allow loading html/js/etc. as part of the status resource
17:09:54 <npdoty> jmayer, that's certainly one way, though it seems dramatic
17:10:03 <jmayer> schunter: is there agreement on approach?
17:10:10 <jmayer> tl: working on text
17:10:21 <jmayer> npdoty, background pages are nbd
17:11:00 <jmayer> schunter: any objections to the hybrid approach?  comments?  expect more in future
17:11:10 <npdoty> topic: site-specific exceptions
17:11:21 <tl> +q opt-*out* requests
17:11:30 <tl> -q opt-*out* requests
17:11:32 <tl> +q
17:11:37 <jmayer> -q
17:12:02 <jmayer> ... question: should a site be able to get an exception for all the third parties it chooses to use?
17:12:03 <jmayer> +q
17:12:09 <npdoty> q+ tl to talk about something he wanted to remember
17:12:22 <bryan> add the point you want to make after "q+ "
17:12:40 <jmayer> ... another question: should widget providers (and similar) be able to get a web-wide exception for all the first parties it appears on?
17:12:41 <bryan> Zakim will remind you
17:13:01 <tl> Aah, apparently, it doesn't work with +q, only q+
17:13:07 <tl> zakim, mute me
17:13:07 <Zakim> tl should now be muted
17:13:09 <jchester2> +q
17:13:11 <schunter> q?
17:13:17 <jmayer> ... yet another question: should a site be able to get an exception for specific third parties?
17:13:18 <ninjamarnau> q+
17:13:51 <npdoty> q+ to note that the current proposal handles both * and an enumerated list
17:14:36 <jmayer> ... want to give publishers flexibility and practical accommodation, but also want to make sure users are informed
17:14:37 <tl> ack tl
17:14:38 <Zakim> tl, you wanted to talk about something he wanted to remember
17:15:21 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
17:15:37 <npdoty> current API doesn't support the Web-wide exception case, we're still waiting on alex to draft text here
17:15:41 <jchester2> Can the IAB, DAA, NAI etc on the call explain their view regarding this issue, on web wide exceptions.
17:16:13 <johnsimpson> losing you
17:16:17 <WileyS> Jeff - I can explain the "MyBlogLog" scenario again if you like
17:16:19 <schunter> q?
17:16:25 <WileyS> +q
17:16:35 <WileyS> As one example...
17:16:39 <npdoty> ack jmayer 
17:16:41 <schunter> ack jmayer
17:17:13 <tl> We want a mirror image API too. Right now, you can only ask about opting *in* to getting DNT:0, not opting *out* to getting DNT:1
17:17:19 <ksmith> q+
17:17:36 <tl> zakim, mute me
17:17:36 <Zakim> tl should now be muted
17:17:38 <npdoty> jmayer: take the approach of handling all 3, don't need to answer whether the * exception satisfies EU law, sites that handle EU users can make that determination on their own
17:17:52 <schunter> ack jchester
17:17:54 <npdoty> ack jchester
17:18:24 <dsinger> q+
17:18:58 <marc> q+
17:19:11 <jmayer> jchester2: would like to hear where industry trade groups are
17:19:38 <jmayer> ... concerned about users accepting a list of companies they don't know
17:19:54 <jmayer> ... want to make sure there's meaningful information available about what's going on
17:19:56 <npdoty> jchester2, are you arguing that we shouldn't allow a "*" exception at all, because users wouldn't be informed?
17:20:08 <jmayer> it seems to me these aren't mutually exclusive
17:20:09 <schunter> q?
17:20:14 <npdoty> marc, want to respond directly?
17:20:17 <jmayer> a "*" exception allowed, with a transparency requirement
17:20:19 <dsinger> q?
17:20:22 <WileyS> Yes
17:21:43 <jchester2> What is the DAA doing now on its own DNT system, including this issue?
17:22:08 <jmayer> marc: We shouldn't draft with an eye towards any particular legal regime or specific browser implementation. Would allow all three options to exist.
17:22:27 <jchester2> Neither the NAI or DAA offers the kind of real transparency a consumer requires.
17:22:27 <chapell> @Jeff, you prob want to ask the DAA directly - as I don't believe they are on the call
17:22:42 <jchester2> Marc as head of NAI is on the DAA.
17:23:03 <jmayer> schunter: What sort of transparency is available about the companies on a page?
17:23:14 <aleecia> aleecia has joined #dnt
17:23:39 <jmayer> Marc: Icon gives some information, some interstitial pages (not currently required) give a list of companies involved in displaying an ad.
17:24:20 <aleecia> While it's interesting to learn what DAA is thinking about, once again, we may go off in an entirely different direction from what any external party might prefer 
17:24:21 <chapell> @Jeff - I understand that it is your opinion that neither the DAA or NAI "offers the kind of real transparency a consumer requires"
17:24:24 <jchester2> When you look at Aboutads, the information provided there doesn't reflect how the companies really collect data, who their partners are, etc.  
17:24:46 <jmayer> ... At opt-out page, get list of companies.  Most users choose to opt out of all companies.
17:24:46 <aleecia> We might want to take this offline soon?
17:24:51 <schunter> yes.
17:24:56 <jchester2> Comsumers don't have the granularity they require--so any exception must convey what really goes on.
17:25:15 <npdoty> q?
17:25:30 <jchester2> Look at this and tell me how this helps users and their privacy:  http://www.networkadvertising.org/managing/
17:25:39 <schunter> My understanding: Marc says that DAA does not offer per-thirdparty transparency or control but rather categories/groups of entitites.
17:25:48 <npdoty> ack ninjamarnau 
17:25:50 <npdoty> q- marc
17:25:51 <schunter> ack nmarnau
17:26:32 <johnsimpson> Q?
17:26:33 <chapell> We are at loggerheads on this point I believe - Jeff is unlikely to think that the disclosure that the industry comes up with will be sufficient -- industry will think that jeff's standard is over reaching. We may want to take this offline
17:27:05 <johnsimpson> q?
17:27:14 <WileyS> +1 to what Alan said!
17:27:15 <WileyS> -q
17:27:16 <aleecia> I think Ninja's points here are helpful, once we understand where things stand. 
17:27:17 <jmayer> ninjamarnau: We want first parties to carefully select their third parties. Especially given considerations of liability.
17:27:24 <schunter> ack npdoty
17:27:24 <Zakim> npdoty, you wanted to note that the current proposal handles both * and an enumerated list
17:27:39 <aleecia> And thanks for Marc jumping in to help us understand
17:27:41 <jmayer> npdoty: Current proposal handles "*" and list.
17:27:51 <schunter> ack ksith
17:27:55 <npdoty> ack ksmith
17:27:56 <schunter> ack ksmith
17:28:03 <jchester2> I also appreciate Marc speaking out--although we don't agree!
17:28:15 <npdoty> an array of domain strings OR a "*"
17:28:20 <aleecia> revised template -> dlist; please let me know if I've missed or mangled anything
17:28:32 <tl> zakim, unmute me
17:28:32 <Zakim> tl should no longer be muted
17:28:38 <jmayer> ksmith: Want "pretty name" option in exception API.
17:28:57 <jmayer> tl: Already included.
17:29:07 <npdoty> q+
17:29:49 <vincent> imho users are more liklely to have a blacklist of exceptions not to grant
17:29:50 <johnsimpson> q?
17:30:00 <tl> zakim, mute me
17:30:00 <Zakim> tl should now be muted
17:30:07 <dsinger>  is willing to explore in email (which I sort-of tried and failed) his concerns with the JS API in general, as time is running out, and why I wonder whether both sites and UAs will both prefer what we call "out of band" over this in-band JS API and dnt:0
17:30:22 <jmayer> schunter: We'll make an action.
17:30:42 <jmayer> ksmith: Agree that lack of transparency is a problem with a blanket exception.
17:30:53 <npdoty> I think currently the pretty name parameter is just a single param for the first-party site, it would be a new option if we want to do it for every 3rd-party domain (which I could see being useful or not)
17:31:05 <jmayer> ... existing ad chains are problematic for exceptions
17:31:05 <jchester2> Or the ad exchange like business model needs to be changed to better protect privacy.
17:31:08 <jmayer> I continue to think Kevin is completely wrong on this. See the list.
17:31:22 <npdoty> q-
17:31:36 <Zakim> -justin_
17:31:43 <schunter> q?
17:31:49 <Zakim> - +1.917.934.aahh
17:32:04 <Zakim> - +1.202.835.aaii
17:32:07 <Zakim> - +1.646.395.aaww
17:32:12 <fielding> where is the F2F?
17:32:20 <npdoty> dsinger, yes, please note on email; I am still very optimistic about user-agent managed exceptions
17:32:23 <jmayer> schunter: Next week - last before f2f.
17:32:26 <Zakim> -efelten
17:32:27 <Zakim> - +1.813.366.aagg
17:32:27 <Zakim> -adrianba
17:32:29 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
17:32:29 <Zakim> -jchester2
17:32:30 <Zakim> -johnsimpson
17:32:30 <Zakim> - +44.142.864.aaqq
17:32:31 <Zakim> -aleecia
17:32:34 <Zakim> -eberkower
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17:32:35 <Zakim> -[Apple]
17:32:37 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
17:32:39 <Zakim> -ninjamarnau
17:32:40 <dsinger> npdoty: huh?
17:32:41 <Zakim> - +1.206.369.aapp
17:32:44 <Zakim> -schunter
17:32:45 <Zakim> -Lia
17:32:47 <Zakim> - +1.425.214.aajj
17:32:49 <Zakim> -jmayer
17:32:51 <Zakim> -npdoty
17:32:54 <Zakim> -alex
17:32:56 <Zakim> -fieding
17:32:57 <Zakim> -Cyril_Concolato
17:33:00 <Zakim> -tl
17:33:02 <Zakim> - +1.646.666.aaoo
17:33:03 <Zakim> -jason
17:33:17 <fielding> s/fieding/fielding/
17:33:27 <Zakim> - +1.617.733.aamm
17:33:29 <Zakim> - +385221aauu
17:33:30 <Zakim> T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM has ended
17:33:30 <Zakim> Attendees were aleecia, +1.408.223.aaaa, npdoty, tl, dsriedel, ninjamarnau, efelten, +1.646.654.aabb, +1.215.286.aacc, jchester2, schunter, eberkower, dsinger, [IPcaller],
17:33:30 <Zakim> ... johnsimpson, justin_, Bil, jason, +1.866.317.aadd, +1.866.317.aaee, +1.202.695.aaff, +1.813.366.aagg, +1.917.934.aahh, +1.202.835.aaii, jmayer, +1.425.214.aajj, alex,
17:33:32 <Zakim> ... +1.202.346.aakk, +1.617.733.aall, +1.617.733.aamm, [Microsoft], +1.202.326.aann, +1.646.666.aaoo, +1.206.369.aapp, Lia, hwest, +44.142.864.aaqq, adrianba, +015654aarr, fieding,
17:33:34 <Zakim> ... +1.646.395.aass, WileyS, +1.404.978.aatt, +385221aauu, Cyril_Concolato, +1.404.978.aavv, ifette, +1.646.395.aaww
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18:57:16 <npdoty> rrsagent, make logs public
18:57:19 <npdoty> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:57:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/28-dnt-minutes.html npdoty
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