IRC log of dnt on 2012-03-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:52:53 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dnt
15:52:53 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/28-dnt-irc
15:53:12 [aleecia]
Zakim, this is dnt
15:53:12 [Zakim]
aleecia, this was already T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM
15:53:13 [Zakim]
ok, aleecia; that matches T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM
15:53:23 [aleecia]
chair: aleecia
15:53:26 [aleecia]
agenda?
15:53:43 [aleecia]
zakim, clear agenda
15:53:43 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
15:54:12 [aleecia]
agenda+ Selection of scribe
15:54:33 [npdoty]
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15:54:33 [aleecia]
agenda+ Any comments on minutes: http://www.w3.org/2012/03/21-dnt-minutes
15:54:53 [tl]
tl has joined #dnt
15:54:53 [aleecia]
agenda+ Discussion and feedback on Draft Agenda for our Face2Face
15:55:18 [aleecia]
agenda+ Review of overdue action items: https://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/overdue
15:55:40 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.223.aaaa
15:56:03 [Zakim]
+npdoty
15:56:08 [aleecia]
agenda+ Discussion of a template for combined proposals on parties and business uses
15:56:21 [npdoty]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:56:21 [Zakim]
On the phone I see aleecia, +1.408.223.aaaa, npdoty
15:56:21 [aleecia]
agenda+ Deeper discussion of issue-22.
15:56:25 [Zakim]
+tl
15:56:44 [aleecia]
agenda+ Responses: Header & URI
15:56:58 [aleecia]
agenda+ ISSUES 111, 129, 130 on site-specific exceptions
15:57:09 [aleecia]
agenda+ Announce next meeting & adjourn
15:57:13 [Zakim]
+dsriedel
15:57:16 [aleecia]
(sound quality is sad, Tom)
15:57:20 [dsriedel]
zakim, mute me
15:57:20 [Zakim]
dsriedel should now be muted
15:57:43 [dsriedel]
agenda?
15:57:43 [aleecia]
agenda?
15:58:05 [tl]
aleecia: Do I sound underwater, in a windstorm, in an auditorium, or what?
15:58:31 [Bil]
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15:58:47 [eberkower]
eberkower has joined #dnt
15:58:51 [ninjamarnau]
ninjamarnau has joined #dnt
15:58:53 [Zakim]
+ninjamarnau
15:59:19 [Zakim]
+efelten
15:59:29 [jchester2]
jchester2 has joined #dnt
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efelten has joined #dnt
15:59:36 [Zakim]
+??P37
15:59:37 [sidstamm]
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15:59:50 [Zakim]
+ +1.646.654.aabb
15:59:50 [johnsimpson]
johnsimpson has joined #dnt
15:59:54 [Zakim]
+ +1.215.286.aacc
16:00:03 [sidstamm]
aleecia, I can't make the call today (other teleconf at the same time), but I'll monitor this channel
16:00:09 [Zakim]
+jchester2
16:00:14 [aleecia]
regrets+ sidstamm
16:00:16 [schunter]
schunter has joined #dnt
16:00:18 [aleecia]
thanks, Sid
16:00:24 [npdoty]
Zakim, ??P37 is schunter
16:00:24 [Zakim]
+schunter; got it
16:00:29 [npdoty]
Zakim, aabb is eberkower
16:00:30 [Zakim]
+eberkower; got it
16:00:31 [aleecia]
that means you want to scribe, right? :-)
16:00:39 [Zakim]
+[Apple]
16:00:43 [dsinger]
zakim, [apple] has dsinger
16:00:46 [Zakim]
+dsinger; got it
16:00:47 [sidstamm]
tough to scribe if I can't hear the phone line. ;-)
16:00:57 [aleecia]
you won't make any mistakes :-)
16:01:18 [efelten]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:01:18 [Zakim]
On the phone I see aleecia, +1.408.223.aaaa, npdoty, tl, dsriedel (muted), ninjamarnau, efelten, schunter, eberkower, +1.215.286.aacc, jchester2, [Apple]
16:01:21 [Zakim]
[Apple] has dsinger
16:01:53 [aleecia]
Welcome, Jason and Bil.
16:01:59 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:02:01 [Zakim]
+johnsimpson
16:02:11 [johnsimpson]
zakim. mute me
16:02:11 [Zakim]
+justin_
16:02:12 [npdoty]
Zakim, aaaa is Bil
16:02:13 [Zakim]
+Bil; got it
16:02:22 [Lia]
Lia has joined #dnt
16:02:23 [aleecia]
zakim, mute johnsimpson
16:02:23 [Zakim]
johnsimpson should now be muted
16:02:25 [npdoty]
Zakim, aacc is jason
16:02:25 [Zakim]
+jason; got it
16:02:27 [Zakim]
+ +1.866.317.aadd
16:02:39 [Zakim]
- +1.866.317.aadd
16:02:39 [aleecia]
(period does not work, comma does. Zakim is fussy.)
16:02:41 [fielding]
fielding has joined #dnt
16:02:46 [jmayer]
jmayer has joined #dnt
16:02:58 [alex]
alex has joined #dnt
16:03:09 [npdoty]
Chair: schunter
16:03:10 [Zakim]
+ +1.866.317.aaee
16:03:15 [aleecia]
agenda?
16:03:18 [npdoty]
Meeting: Tracking Protection Working Group teleconference
16:03:35 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.695.aaff
16:03:36 [aleecia]
next agendum
16:03:45 [Zakim]
+ +1.813.366.aagg
16:03:47 [Zakim]
+ +1.917.934.aahh
16:03:54 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.835.aaii
16:03:56 [Zakim]
+jmayer
16:04:09 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.214.aajj
16:04:13 [aleecia]
thank you!
16:04:13 [Zakim]
+alex
16:04:14 [hwest]
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16:04:19 [npdoty]
scribenick: jmayer
16:04:23 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.346.aakk
16:04:28 [aleecia]
close agendum 1
16:04:33 [Jason]
Jason has joined #dnt
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16:04:49 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.733.aall
16:04:49 [npdoty]
(if you're calling in now, please associate your name with Zakim)
16:04:53 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.733.aamm
16:04:56 [aleecia]
close agendum 2
16:05:05 [jmayer]
schunter: any comments on minutes?
16:05:05 [dsinger]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:05:10 [jmayer]
... silence
16:05:11 [Zakim]
On the phone I see aleecia, Bil, npdoty, tl, dsriedel (muted), ninjamarnau, efelten, schunter, eberkower, jason, jchester2, [Apple], [IPcaller], johnsimpson (muted), justin_,
16:05:15 [Zakim]
... +1.866.317.aaee, +1.202.695.aaff, +1.813.366.aagg, +1.917.934.aahh, +1.202.835.aaii, jmayer, +1.425.214.aajj, alex, +1.202.346.aakk, +1.617.733.aall, +1.617.733.aamm
16:05:17 [Zakim]
[Apple] has dsinger
16:05:34 [marc]
marc has joined #dnt
16:05:36 [jmayer]
aleecia: have been working on dc meeting agenda
16:05:49 [jmayer]
... still more to nail down
16:05:52 [laurengelman]
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16:06:03 [fielding]
npdoty, no, I am in France, and unfamiliar with the office phones
16:06:12 [jmayer]
... tuesday: where we are, where we're going; compliance
16:06:17 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
16:06:20 [jmayer]
... wednesday: compliance
16:06:29 [bryan]
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16:06:30 [jmayer]
... thursday: preference expression
16:06:38 [tl]
fielding, I'm calling from my Google account.
16:06:45 [bryan]
present+ Bryan_Sullivan
16:06:47 [JC]
JC has joined #DNT
16:06:49 [cOlsen]
cOlsen has joined #dnt
16:06:58 [Adam]
Adam has joined #dnt
16:07:03 [ac]
ac has joined #dnt
16:07:14 [jmayer]
... any comments?
16:07:16 [bryan]
location?
16:07:27 [tl]
zakim, mut me
16:07:27 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'mut me', tl
16:07:33 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.326.aann
16:07:34 [tl]
zakim, mute me
16:07:34 [Zakim]
tl should now be muted
16:07:42 [Zakim]
+ +1.646.666.aaoo
16:07:45 [jmayer]
... location soon, expect to be able to announce today
16:07:58 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.369.aapp
16:08:04 [Lia]
Zakim, aaff is me
16:08:04 [Zakim]
+Lia; got it
16:08:15 [aleecia]
zakim, mute me
16:08:16 [Zakim]
aleecia should now be muted
16:08:23 [jmayer]
schunter: review of overdue actions
16:08:30 [aleecia]
close agendum 3
16:08:35 [tedleung]
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16:08:39 [adrianba]
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16:08:44 [jmayer]
... ACTION-26 review
16:08:45 [hwest]
Zakim, aakk is me
16:08:45 [Zakim]
+hwest; got it
16:08:46 [aleecia]
unmute me
16:09:08 [aleecia]
zakim, unmute me
16:09:09 [Zakim]
aleecia should no longer be muted
16:09:26 [Zakim]
+ +44.142.864.aaqq
16:09:51 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.a]
16:09:56 [WileyS]
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16:10:01 [ksmith]
ksmith has joined #DNT
16:10:04 [jmayer]
... Taking off since Karl isn't on calls anymore.
16:10:05 [chapell]
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16:10:14 [JC]
Amy is out today
16:10:22 [adrianba]
zakim, [Microsoft.a] is me
16:10:22 [Zakim]
+adrianba; got it
16:10:40 [Zakim]
+ +015654aarr
16:10:50 [fielding]
Zakim, aarr is fieding
16:10:50 [Zakim]
+fieding; got it
16:10:51 [jmayer]
... ACTION-104
16:10:52 [Zakim]
+ +1.646.395.aass
16:11:03 [jmayer]
aleecia: amy's thinking is no text
16:11:22 [jmayer]
schunter: ACTION-120
16:11:47 [jmayer]
alex: need more time
16:12:00 [Vinay]
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16:12:26 [aleecia]
thanks, Jeff
16:12:44 [ifette]
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16:12:45 [npdoty]
action-120 due April 4
16:12:45 [trackbot]
ACTION-120 Write a proposal on web-wide exception API (for ISSUE-113) (with npdoty) due date now April 4
16:12:48 [ifette]
Zakim, bridge?
16:12:48 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, ifette.
16:12:54 [npdoty]
Zakim, code?
16:12:54 [Zakim]
the conference code is 87225 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), npdoty
16:12:54 [jmayer]
schunter: recommend getting done before f2f, start with an outline
16:12:58 [npdoty]
alex, great!
16:13:07 [jmayer]
... ACTION-123?
16:13:12 [ksmith]
I have been out for a couple of weeks. Has the dial in # changed? I keep getting a 'disconnected' error
16:13:14 [jmayer]
jchester2: working, will report back
16:13:24 [tl]
unmute me
16:13:30 [npdoty]
Zakim, unmute tl
16:13:30 [Zakim]
tl should no longer be muted
16:13:34 [Adam_]
Adam_ has joined #dnt
16:13:58 [WileyS]
Zakim, aass is WileyS
16:13:58 [Zakim]
+WileyS; got it
16:14:13 [jmayer]
schunter: ACTION-139?
16:14:28 [Zakim]
+ +1.404.978.aatt
16:14:38 [jmayer]
tl: working on ACTION-139, ACTION-145
16:14:47 [mischat]
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16:14:54 [Zakim]
+ +385221aauu
16:15:03 [jmayer]
schunter: ACTION-141?
16:15:03 [Zakim]
+Cyril_Concolato
16:15:09 [Zakim]
- +1.404.978.aatt
16:15:14 [aleecia]
Jeff, again due wednesday for 123?
16:15:16 [jmayer]
... no rigo, will reach out
16:15:17 [tl]
Apologies for audio zakim, mute me
16:15:17 [aleecia]
Jeff, action-123 is now a week out
16:15:19 [aleecia]
zakim, mute me
16:15:19 [Zakim]
aleecia should now be muted
16:15:22 [aleecia]
kevin, no change on the call in number.
16:15:22 [vincent]
vincent has joined #dnt
16:15:23 [aleecia]
Nick may be able to help Kevin?
16:15:32 [jmayer]
schunter: ACTION-145?
16:15:32 [Zakim]
+ +1.404.978.aavv
16:15:37 [ifette]
Zakim, aavv is ifette
16:15:37 [Zakim]
+ifette; got it
16:16:01 [aleecia]
zakim, unmute me
16:16:01 [Zakim]
aleecia should no longer be muted
16:16:15 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.a]
16:16:30 [amyc]
amyc has joined #DNT
16:16:37 [aleecia]
:-)
16:16:40 [tl]
zakim, mute me
16:16:40 [Zakim]
tl should now be muted
16:16:51 [jmayer]
schunter: ACTION-150?
16:17:04 [Zakim]
-ifette
16:17:13 [aleecia]
Note that 2 weeks is during f2f
16:17:23 [aleecia]
You could do 1 week, or 3, and I'd believe it
16:17:26 [WileyS]
Ninja - agree that this should be handled in the companion document
16:17:27 [jmayer]
ninjamarnau: need more time to work with shane
16:17:41 [npdoty]
Ninja, can we try to do this in 1 week so we can discuss text at f2f?
16:18:01 [jmayer]
schunter: done with review of action items
16:18:09 [Zakim]
+ifette
16:18:26 [ninjamarnau]
ndoty, yes. thank you. I forgot that the f2f is this soon.
16:18:48 [tl]
Netlag is the new jetlag, for all the cool kids.
16:18:52 [ifette]
rrsagent, bookmark?
16:18:52 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2012/03/28-dnt-irc#T16-18-52
16:18:53 [jmayer]
schunter: handing to aleecia to work on compliance
16:19:02 [ifette]
rrsagent, make logs member
16:19:03 [schunter]
Voice quality is also poor for me (incoming)
16:19:10 [jmayer]
aleecia: sent template for cross-issue proposals to list
16:19:30 [jmayer]
... idea is combination of proposals around parties and operational use
16:19:51 [npdoty]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2012Mar/0434.html
16:19:58 [jmayer]
... questions? things to add?
16:20:24 [jmayer]
... first part: parties
16:20:36 [jmayer]
... ok to copy and paste from other proposals
16:21:08 [jmayer]
... issues: how large is a party? what is a first party?
16:21:19 [jmayer]
... what a first party must/must not do, what a third party must/must not do
16:22:15 [jmayer]
... comments?
16:22:56 [jmayer]
... unless anyone says otherwise, to be clear, the section on third parties only applies to third parties
16:23:29 [jmayer]
+q
16:23:47 [jmayer]
... reviewing points of decision
16:23:50 [npdoty]
ack jmayer
16:23:50 [schunter]
q?
16:24:06 [ninjamarnau]
why is B only referring to retention limitations?
16:24:08 [npdoty]
jmayer: thinking about this set of design decisions, I very much like the approach
16:24:18 [jchester2]
+q
16:24:18 [aleecia]
aleecia has joined #dnt
16:24:32 [npdoty]
... not quite a "business use"
16:24:55 [npdoty]
... talk about an exception for data that can't be linked to a user's browsing
16:25:00 [npdoty]
... a lot of support for that
16:25:35 [npdoty]
... not a list of blanket/narrow exceptions, but purposes you couldn't accomplish with unlinkable data
16:25:59 [tl]
Makes sense to me
16:26:00 [tl]
+1
16:26:10 [npdoty]
... for financial logging, for example, which people are talking about as being very useful, would also want to see why it can't be accomplished with unlinkable data
16:26:52 [amyc]
can we get definition of unlinkable with examples?
16:26:56 [npdoty]
aleecia: looking at A through C, could add another category for "allowed but only if unlinkable", or add an 8th exception
16:27:00 [WileyS]
WileyS has joined #DNT
16:27:02 [tl]
+q
16:27:41 [npdoty]
jmayer: a cross-cutting exception because it doesn't raise serious privacy concerns (whatever purpose is fine)
16:27:44 [bryan]
can we define unlinkable?
16:27:49 [alex]
Can you define unlinkable
16:28:00 [alex]
funny!
16:28:16 [bryan]
i hope that is not the def...
16:28:20 [npdoty]
... and second noting it as a design choice for each point on the list
16:28:30 [npdoty]
q?
16:28:35 [bryan]
q+
16:28:38 [ninjamarnau]
unlinkability could be a sufficient option. But I do not agree that ANY purpose would be fine. Purpose limitation is still necessary imo.
16:28:53 [Zakim]
- +1.866.317.aaee
16:29:00 [npdoty]
ack jchester
16:29:11 [johnsimpson]
zakim, unmute me
16:29:11 [Zakim]
johnsimpson should no longer be muted
16:29:33 [aleecia]
aleecia has joined #dnt
16:29:37 [npdoty]
q?
16:29:41 [ifette]
q+
16:29:45 [dsinger]
q+
16:30:00 [jmayer]
jchester2: What are the impacts for legal compliance?
16:30:09 [bryan]
the term unlinkable does not yet exist in the TCS. "unidentifiable" is used but not defined.
16:30:22 [sidstamm]
sidstamm has joined #dnt
16:30:29 [Zakim]
-WileyS
16:30:30 [fielding]
q+
16:30:38 [jmayer]
bryan, then let's define it - see FTC report, DAA multi-site principles
16:31:33 [npdoty]
jchester2, are there particular problems you see that you think will trip us up for EU jurisdictions?
16:31:36 [jmayer]
jchester2: Need clarity on what EU law requires.
16:31:43 [bryan]
is there some text you could propose and reference?
16:32:44 [Zakim]
+ +1.646.395.aaww
16:33:07 [npdoty]
aleecia: have asked several times and haven't had pushback from EU that 1st/3rd won't work at all, just perhaps that there would be additional requirements
16:33:15 [ninjamarnau]
jchester2, I don't think that our 1st and 3rd party approach is generally not acceptable. But it sure is a problem that our 3rd parties are controllers as well as processors.
16:33:21 [dsinger]
q?
16:33:24 [tl]
ack tl
16:33:38 [aleecia]
huzzah IRC back
16:34:21 [npdoty]
scribenick: tl
16:34:27 [npdoty]
scribenick: npdoty
16:34:29 [dsinger]
if we mean by "unlinkable data" data that can't be associated with a person, it's not an exception, it's not even in scope, surely?
16:34:55 [jmayer]
dsinger, why wouldn't it be in scope?
16:34:55 [npdoty]
tl: I like the idea, having a first exception be unlinkable data can really improve the clarity of the document
16:35:13 [jchester2]
Ninja: Thanks. We need EU clarification on so-called first parties.
16:35:14 [npdoty]
bryan: we would need to define unidentified and unlinkability
16:35:28 [dsinger]
because if it's data that's not associated with a person, it's no longer 'tracking' anyone
16:35:36 [npdoty]
... jmayer pointed to FTC and DAA documents, but we need to be sure we have an understanding and a definition
16:35:53 [npdoty]
ifette: Art29 v FTC and these definitions
16:36:09 [tl]
+1
16:36:27 [npdoty]
... get something out the door that offers users meaningful choice, if that satisfies regulatory requirements then great, but our primary goal shouldn't be satisfying such a regime
16:36:30 [JC]
+1
16:36:34 [dsinger]
+1
16:36:37 [tl]
+1 to: we're building a tool for users. If that satisfies some regulatory regime, great.
16:36:42 [jchester2]
The meaningful benefit should be an effective DNT regime
16:36:49 [dsinger]
let's be mutually informed, but not wedded!
16:36:51 [npdoty]
aleecia: agree, regulatory requirements are useful to have in mind, but not determinant of our work
16:37:23 [npdoty]
... implications of different regulatory regimes are large and so we should talk about them, but we may choose to go our own way
16:37:28 [jmayer]
+q
16:37:35 [npdoty]
q- bryan
16:37:38 [npdoty]
q- ifette
16:37:40 [npdoty]
ack dsinger
16:38:01 [npdoty]
dsinger: in Brussels we had a discussion of alternative models to 1st/3rd
16:38:18 [npdoty]
... we don't seem to have explored these further since, when should we do that?
16:38:40 [npdoty]
aleecia: this is a great time to write up those alternative proposals (in this form) if interested
16:38:58 [npdoty]
... in Brussels moved to walk down the 1st/3rd path unless/until it fails
16:39:16 [aleecia]
aleecia has joined #dnt
16:39:26 [dsinger]
ok. thx
16:39:29 [npdoty]
... if you want to write an alternate proposal, go right ahead
16:39:32 [aleecia]
ack fielding
16:39:42 [johnsimpson]
q?
16:40:01 [npdoty]
fielding: 3rd-acting-as-1st important to me in the template itself, hard for me to evaluate otherwise
16:40:20 [jmayer]
+q
16:40:28 [npdoty]
aleecia: case to bundle one more piece, though I've been trying to keep this as simple as possible
16:40:31 [npdoty]
ack jmayer
16:40:39 [aleecia]
ack jmayer
16:40:51 [fielding]
jmayer, because I won't agree to third party restrictions on outsourced services
16:41:25 [npdoty]
jmayer: three options for each business use, could add "allowed under the unlinkable exception"
16:41:41 [ninjamarnau]
+1
16:41:50 [alex]
q+
16:41:53 [npdoty]
... but rather than just a retention limit, there might be other limits -- part of a broader design space
16:42:33 [npdoty]
... not so rigid that retention limits are the only limits on an exception
16:42:42 [amyc]
q+
16:43:07 [npdoty]
aleecia: can use Part C of the template for that, restrictions may vary across each business use
16:44:14 [npdoty]
jmayer: buckets of 1) never do it, 2) do it without limits, 3) unlinkable only, 4) customized set of limits
16:44:16 [ifette]
Maybe we should just see a proposal and what people write they write...
16:44:35 [aleecia]
here's what I think I'm changing to the template: (1) "unlinkable" to the list of 7 uses; (1) "unlinkable" as a method similar to retention; adding agent of a first party
16:44:35 [aleecia]
and adding a note that proposals that are not 1st/3rd party are also fine
16:45:03 [jmayer]
my pragmatic concern is that it'll be difficult to compare proposals
16:45:07 [alex]
q-
16:45:10 [jmayer]
they'll be text-heavy
16:45:13 [WileyS]
WileyS has joined #DNT
16:45:26 [ifette]
q?
16:45:32 [npdoty]
ack amyc
16:46:03 [npdoty]
amyc: want to support what jmayer said, don't want to get too rigid about A/B/C, may include A/B/C just to make it easier to compare
16:47:29 [jmayer]
scribenick: jmayer
16:47:42 [jmayer]
aleecia: circling back to unlinkable data
16:47:58 [npdoty]
did jmayer volunteer?
16:48:01 [dsinger]
q+
16:48:12 [npdoty]
ack dsinger
16:48:14 [tl]
I think jmayer volunteered?
16:48:40 [tl]
+q
16:49:05 [tl]
zakim, unmute me
16:49:05 [Zakim]
tl was not muted, tl
16:49:07 [npdoty]
action: mayer to draft a permitted use/definition for unlinkable data
16:49:07 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-153 - Draft a permitted use/definition for unlinkable data [on Jonathan Mayer - due 2012-04-04].
16:49:08 [WileyS]
WileyS has joined #DNT
16:49:14 [dsinger]
ok
16:49:20 [ninjamarnau]
unlinkable is the same as unidentifiable
16:49:26 [ninjamarnau]
not
16:49:27 [bryan]
I would ask that the definition address these questions: Does "link" mean an association with a specific individual or device (whether the identity of that individual/device is real or not), or a limited group of individuals or devices, or a class of individuals or devices, etc? How far away from an real individual or device is the ability to "link" significant?
16:49:30 [jmayer]
dsinger: Is unlinkable data in scope?
16:49:31 [bryan]
q+
16:49:46 [ninjamarnau]
unlinkable is the NOT same as unidentifiable
16:50:06 [npdoty]
ack tl
16:50:12 [bryan]
How is unlinkable is the NOT same as unidentifiable?
16:50:15 [jmayer]
aleecia: We've been discussing the boundaries of unlinkable data, will work on text.
16:50:21 [WileyS]
Breaking up badly
16:50:24 [johnsimpson]
tl, breaking up badly
16:50:30 [ifette]
tom, more bandwidth!
16:50:39 [npdoty]
ack bryan
16:51:05 [tl]
As we said in Santa Clara: you can have data about people, but which cannot be linked to a particular person. This is hard.
16:51:06 [jmayer]
bryan: need precision in the definition
16:51:15 [tl]
zakim, mute me.
16:51:15 [Zakim]
tl should now be muted
16:51:21 [Lia]
pages 20-22 of the FTC report discusses de-identified data
16:51:27 [jmayer]
... question: how unlinkable?
16:51:31 [npdoty]
q?
16:51:39 [tl]
zakim, increase my audio quality
16:51:39 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'increase my audio quality', tl
16:51:39 [ninjamarnau]
q+
16:51:54 [npdoty]
ack ninjamarnau
16:51:56 [tl]
zakim, please add more fuel to the internet furnaces
16:51:56 [Zakim]
I don't understand you, tl
16:51:57 [jmayer]
action: draft an unlinkable data/unidentifiable data/pick favorite term exception
16:51:57 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - draft
16:52:07 [jmayer]
action: jmayer to draft an unlinkable data/unidentifiable data/pick favorite term exception
16:52:07 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-154 - Draft an unlinkable data/unidentifiable data/pick favorite term exception [on Jonathan Mayer - due 2012-04-04].
16:52:12 [npdoty]
action-153?
16:52:12 [trackbot]
ACTION-153 -- Jonathan Mayer to draft a permitted use/definition for unlinkable data -- due 2012-04-04 -- OPEN
16:52:12 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/153
16:52:37 [tl]
+1
16:52:51 [npdoty]
q?
16:53:03 [bryan]
is "ease of linking" really a factor in linkability?
16:53:07 [jmayer]
ninjamarnau: some possible different meaning in eu
16:53:21 [laurengelman]
what about the ftc text?
16:53:36 [jmayer]
aleecia: another thing to think about - aggregation at the time of collection
16:53:37 [jmayer]
+q
16:53:47 [bryan]
if I can break SSL I can probably correlate data... is a prohibition against linkability really achievable ?
16:53:53 [jmayer]
+q
16:53:54 [alex]
ninja: is there a size related with the buckets you mentioned?
16:54:09 [jmayer]
-q
16:54:09 [ifette]
Depends on the data being collected -- e.g. cookies may be set to "optout" but IP addresses still sent, etc
16:54:43 [jmayer]
aleecia: will work on revisions to template
16:54:53 [npdoty]
volunteers to write proposals?
16:54:59 [Zakim]
-ifette
16:55:04 [vincent]
vincent has joined #dnt
16:55:28 [dsinger]
I hope to write up "issues with 1st/3rd that are different or gone with x-site"
16:55:35 [johnsimpson]
i plan to something
16:55:47 [Zakim]
- +1.202.326.aann
16:55:47 [jmayer]
sure, i'll paste together what i've already written
16:55:48 [WileyS]
Yes
16:56:16 [npdoty]
thanks to volunteers!
16:56:32 [johnsimpson]
should be different views :)
16:56:55 [Lia]
Bryan, according to the FTC the ease of linking is a factor - based on whether data can be "reasonably" linked
16:57:18 [npdoty]
aleecia: not defining compromise by who gives up what, instead looking for something that everyone can live with
16:57:52 [jmayer]
... would like to see some details on use cases
16:58:30 [jmayer]
... example: research and surveys split apart
16:58:56 [npdoty]
q?
16:59:08 [jmayer]
... comments?
16:59:20 [jmayer]
schunter: moving to tpe
16:59:27 [npdoty]
topic: Tracking Preference Expression doc
16:59:58 [npdoty]
tl, are you able to talk?
16:59:58 [tl]
zakim, unmute me
16:59:58 [Zakim]
tl should no longer be muted
17:00:08 [npdoty]
yes, clearly
17:00:14 [johnsimpson]
yes
17:00:42 [jmayer]
tl: a problem when working on response header and uri
17:01:01 [jmayer]
... first problem: opt-in status
17:01:31 [fielding]
huh?
17:01:41 [jmayer]
... response header will handle per-request, static status resource can't
17:02:35 [npdoty]
I assumed that agents would continue to send cookies on fetching the tracking status resource
17:02:40 [jmayer]
fielding: don't think there's a problem
17:02:49 [jmayer]
... browsers will still send cookies
17:02:58 [jmayer]
tl: ok, resolved
17:03:03 [npdoty]
my concern is that not every technique will use cookies for identification
17:03:12 [jmayer]
... second problem is related, solved
17:03:38 [sidstamm]
sidstamm has left #dnt
17:04:35 [npdoty]
valid for *at least* 24 hours, in many cases the caching would be much longer, right?
17:04:41 [jmayer]
tl: must have a status resource, could be static or dynamically generated, expect it to be an upper bound on tracking, valid for at least 24
17:05:42 [aleecia]
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17:06:10 [schunter]
q?
17:06:13 [fielding]
designer, we already do
17:06:16 [jmayer]
tl: if parameter changes, have to reload the resource
17:06:34 [Zakim]
-dsriedel
17:06:40 [npdoty]
q+
17:06:49 [fielding]
s/designer/dsinger/
17:06:50 [jmayer]
tl: anything we're missing?
17:07:02 [Zakim]
-Bil
17:07:12 [jmayer]
npdoty: what about trackers that don't use cookies?
17:07:25 [jmayer]
+q
17:07:30 [npdoty]
ack npdoty
17:07:35 [Zakim]
-hwest
17:08:06 [jmayer]
tl: for fingerprinting, could use ip + ua, more would be difficult
17:08:25 [WileyS]
In mobile
17:08:39 [Zakim]
- +1.617.733.aall
17:08:48 [jmayer]
+q
17:09:07 [npdoty]
WileyS, do you have specific details on the mobile context?
17:09:21 [jmayer]
easy fix - allow loading html/js/etc. as part of the status resource
17:09:54 [npdoty]
jmayer, that's certainly one way, though it seems dramatic
17:10:03 [jmayer]
schunter: is there agreement on approach?
17:10:10 [jmayer]
tl: working on text
17:10:21 [jmayer]
npdoty, background pages are nbd
17:11:00 [jmayer]
schunter: any objections to the hybrid approach? comments? expect more in future
17:11:10 [npdoty]
topic: site-specific exceptions
17:11:21 [tl]
+q opt-*out* requests
17:11:30 [tl]
-q opt-*out* requests
17:11:32 [tl]
+q
17:11:37 [jmayer]
-q
17:12:02 [jmayer]
... question: should a site be able to get an exception for all the third parties it chooses to use?
17:12:03 [jmayer]
+q
17:12:09 [npdoty]
q+ tl to talk about something he wanted to remember
17:12:22 [bryan]
add the point you want to make after "q+ "
17:12:40 [jmayer]
... another question: should widget providers (and similar) be able to get a web-wide exception for all the first parties it appears on?
17:12:41 [bryan]
Zakim will remind you
17:13:01 [tl]
Aah, apparently, it doesn't work with +q, only q+
17:13:07 [tl]
zakim, mute me
17:13:07 [Zakim]
tl should now be muted
17:13:09 [jchester2]
+q
17:13:11 [schunter]
q?
17:13:17 [jmayer]
... yet another question: should a site be able to get an exception for specific third parties?
17:13:18 [ninjamarnau]
q+
17:13:51 [npdoty]
q+ to note that the current proposal handles both * and an enumerated list
17:14:36 [jmayer]
... want to give publishers flexibility and practical accommodation, but also want to make sure users are informed
17:14:37 [tl]
ack tl
17:14:38 [Zakim]
tl, you wanted to talk about something he wanted to remember
17:15:21 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft.a]
17:15:37 [npdoty]
current API doesn't support the Web-wide exception case, we're still waiting on alex to draft text here
17:15:41 [jchester2]
Can the IAB, DAA, NAI etc on the call explain their view regarding this issue, on web wide exceptions.
17:16:13 [johnsimpson]
losing you
17:16:17 [WileyS]
Jeff - I can explain the "MyBlogLog" scenario again if you like
17:16:19 [schunter]
q?
17:16:25 [WileyS]
+q
17:16:35 [WileyS]
As one example...
17:16:39 [npdoty]
ack jmayer
17:16:41 [schunter]
ack jmayer
17:17:13 [tl]
We want a mirror image API too. Right now, you can only ask about opting *in* to getting DNT:0, not opting *out* to getting DNT:1
17:17:19 [ksmith]
q+
17:17:36 [tl]
zakim, mute me
17:17:36 [Zakim]
tl should now be muted
17:17:38 [npdoty]
jmayer: take the approach of handling all 3, don't need to answer whether the * exception satisfies EU law, sites that handle EU users can make that determination on their own
17:17:52 [schunter]
ack jchester
17:17:54 [npdoty]
ack jchester
17:18:24 [dsinger]
q+
17:18:58 [marc]
q+
17:19:11 [jmayer]
jchester2: would like to hear where industry trade groups are
17:19:38 [jmayer]
... concerned about users accepting a list of companies they don't know
17:19:54 [jmayer]
... want to make sure there's meaningful information available about what's going on
17:19:56 [npdoty]
jchester2, are you arguing that we shouldn't allow a "*" exception at all, because users wouldn't be informed?
17:20:08 [jmayer]
it seems to me these aren't mutually exclusive
17:20:09 [schunter]
q?
17:20:14 [npdoty]
marc, want to respond directly?
17:20:17 [jmayer]
a "*" exception allowed, with a transparency requirement
17:20:19 [dsinger]
q?
17:20:22 [WileyS]
Yes
17:21:43 [jchester2]
What is the DAA doing now on its own DNT system, including this issue?
17:22:08 [jmayer]
marc: We shouldn't draft with an eye towards any particular legal regime or specific browser implementation. Would allow all three options to exist.
17:22:27 [jchester2]
Neither the NAI or DAA offers the kind of real transparency a consumer requires.
17:22:27 [chapell]
@Jeff, you prob want to ask the DAA directly - as I don't believe they are on the call
17:22:42 [jchester2]
Marc as head of NAI is on the DAA.
17:23:03 [jmayer]
schunter: What sort of transparency is available about the companies on a page?
17:23:14 [aleecia]
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17:23:39 [jmayer]
Marc: Icon gives some information, some interstitial pages (not currently required) give a list of companies involved in displaying an ad.
17:24:20 [aleecia]
While it's interesting to learn what DAA is thinking about, once again, we may go off in an entirely different direction from what any external party might prefer
17:24:21 [chapell]
@Jeff - I understand that it is your opinion that neither the DAA or NAI "offers the kind of real transparency a consumer requires"
17:24:24 [jchester2]
When you look at Aboutads, the information provided there doesn't reflect how the companies really collect data, who their partners are, etc.
17:24:46 [jmayer]
... At opt-out page, get list of companies. Most users choose to opt out of all companies.
17:24:46 [aleecia]
We might want to take this offline soon?
17:24:51 [schunter]
yes.
17:24:56 [jchester2]
Comsumers don't have the granularity they require--so any exception must convey what really goes on.
17:25:15 [npdoty]
q?
17:25:30 [jchester2]
Look at this and tell me how this helps users and their privacy: http://www.networkadvertising.org/managing/
17:25:39 [schunter]
My understanding: Marc says that DAA does not offer per-thirdparty transparency or control but rather categories/groups of entitites.
17:25:48 [npdoty]
ack ninjamarnau
17:25:50 [npdoty]
q- marc
17:25:51 [schunter]
ack nmarnau
17:26:32 [johnsimpson]
Q?
17:26:33 [chapell]
We are at loggerheads on this point I believe - Jeff is unlikely to think that the disclosure that the industry comes up with will be sufficient -- industry will think that jeff's standard is over reaching. We may want to take this offline
17:27:05 [johnsimpson]
q?
17:27:14 [WileyS]
+1 to what Alan said!
17:27:15 [WileyS]
-q
17:27:16 [aleecia]
I think Ninja's points here are helpful, once we understand where things stand.
17:27:17 [jmayer]
ninjamarnau: We want first parties to carefully select their third parties. Especially given considerations of liability.
17:27:24 [schunter]
ack npdoty
17:27:24 [Zakim]
npdoty, you wanted to note that the current proposal handles both * and an enumerated list
17:27:39 [aleecia]
And thanks for Marc jumping in to help us understand
17:27:41 [jmayer]
npdoty: Current proposal handles "*" and list.
17:27:51 [schunter]
ack ksith
17:27:55 [npdoty]
ack ksmith
17:27:56 [schunter]
ack ksmith
17:28:03 [jchester2]
I also appreciate Marc speaking out--although we don't agree!
17:28:15 [npdoty]
an array of domain strings OR a "*"
17:28:20 [aleecia]
revised template -> dlist; please let me know if I've missed or mangled anything
17:28:32 [tl]
zakim, unmute me
17:28:32 [Zakim]
tl should no longer be muted
17:28:38 [jmayer]
ksmith: Want "pretty name" option in exception API.
17:28:57 [jmayer]
tl: Already included.
17:29:07 [npdoty]
q+
17:29:49 [vincent]
imho users are more liklely to have a blacklist of exceptions not to grant
17:29:50 [johnsimpson]
q?
17:30:00 [tl]
zakim, mute me
17:30:00 [Zakim]
tl should now be muted
17:30:07 [dsinger]
is willing to explore in email (which I sort-of tried and failed) his concerns with the JS API in general, as time is running out, and why I wonder whether both sites and UAs will both prefer what we call "out of band" over this in-band JS API and dnt:0
17:30:22 [jmayer]
schunter: We'll make an action.
17:30:42 [jmayer]
ksmith: Agree that lack of transparency is a problem with a blanket exception.
17:30:53 [npdoty]
I think currently the pretty name parameter is just a single param for the first-party site, it would be a new option if we want to do it for every 3rd-party domain (which I could see being useful or not)
17:31:05 [jmayer]
... existing ad chains are problematic for exceptions
17:31:05 [jchester2]
Or the ad exchange like business model needs to be changed to better protect privacy.
17:31:08 [jmayer]
I continue to think Kevin is completely wrong on this. See the list.
17:31:22 [npdoty]
q-
17:31:36 [Zakim]
-justin_
17:31:43 [schunter]
q?
17:31:49 [Zakim]
- +1.917.934.aahh
17:32:04 [Zakim]
- +1.202.835.aaii
17:32:07 [Zakim]
- +1.646.395.aaww
17:32:12 [fielding]
where is the F2F?
17:32:20 [npdoty]
dsinger, yes, please note on email; I am still very optimistic about user-agent managed exceptions
17:32:23 [jmayer]
schunter: Next week - last before f2f.
17:32:26 [Zakim]
-efelten
17:32:27 [Zakim]
- +1.813.366.aagg
17:32:27 [Zakim]
-adrianba
17:32:29 [Zakim]
-[IPcaller]
17:32:29 [Zakim]
-jchester2
17:32:30 [Zakim]
-johnsimpson
17:32:30 [Zakim]
- +44.142.864.aaqq
17:32:31 [Zakim]
-aleecia
17:32:34 [Zakim]
-eberkower
17:32:34 [johnsimpson]
johnsimpson has left #dnt
17:32:35 [Zakim]
-[Apple]
17:32:37 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
17:32:39 [Zakim]
-ninjamarnau
17:32:40 [dsinger]
npdoty: huh?
17:32:41 [Zakim]
- +1.206.369.aapp
17:32:44 [Zakim]
-schunter
17:32:45 [Zakim]
-Lia
17:32:47 [Zakim]
- +1.425.214.aajj
17:32:49 [Zakim]
-jmayer
17:32:51 [Zakim]
-npdoty
17:32:54 [Zakim]
-alex
17:32:56 [Zakim]
-fieding
17:32:57 [Zakim]
-Cyril_Concolato
17:33:00 [Zakim]
-tl
17:33:02 [Zakim]
- +1.646.666.aaoo
17:33:03 [Zakim]
-jason
17:33:17 [fielding]
s/fieding/fielding/
17:33:27 [Zakim]
- +1.617.733.aamm
17:33:29 [Zakim]
- +385221aauu
17:33:30 [Zakim]
T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM has ended
17:33:30 [Zakim]
Attendees were aleecia, +1.408.223.aaaa, npdoty, tl, dsriedel, ninjamarnau, efelten, +1.646.654.aabb, +1.215.286.aacc, jchester2, schunter, eberkower, dsinger, [IPcaller],
17:33:30 [Zakim]
... johnsimpson, justin_, Bil, jason, +1.866.317.aadd, +1.866.317.aaee, +1.202.695.aaff, +1.813.366.aagg, +1.917.934.aahh, +1.202.835.aaii, jmayer, +1.425.214.aajj, alex,
17:33:32 [Zakim]
... +1.202.346.aakk, +1.617.733.aall, +1.617.733.aamm, [Microsoft], +1.202.326.aann, +1.646.666.aaoo, +1.206.369.aapp, Lia, hwest, +44.142.864.aaqq, adrianba, +015654aarr, fieding,
17:33:34 [Zakim]
... +1.646.395.aass, WileyS, +1.404.978.aatt, +385221aauu, Cyril_Concolato, +1.404.978.aavv, ifette, +1.646.395.aaww
17:33:36 [ksmith]
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18:57:16 [npdoty]
rrsagent, make logs public
18:57:19 [npdoty]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:57:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/28-dnt-minutes.html npdoty
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