20:00:00 RRSAgent has joined #svg 20:00:00 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/22-svg-irc 20:00:02 RRSAgent, make logs public 20:00:02 Zakim has joined #svg 20:00:04 Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG 20:00:04 ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM scheduled to start now 20:00:05 Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference 20:00:05 Date: 22 March 2012 20:00:55 GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM has now started 20:01:02 +??P0 20:01:06 Zakim, ??P0 is me 20:01:06 +heycam; got it 20:01:15 +??P1 20:01:29 zakim, ??p1 is glenn 20:01:29 +glenn; got it 20:02:21 cabanier has joined #svg 20:02:28 sorry, was trying to tell zakim to mute me 20:02:32 zakim, mute me 20:02:32 glenn should now be muted 20:02:51 +??P2 20:03:03 Zakim, ??P2 is me 20:03:03 +ed; got it 20:03:19 +Doug_Schepers 20:04:26 +cyril 20:04:30 + +1.415.832.aaaa 20:04:48 krit has joined #svg 20:04:58 zakim, who's here? 20:04:58 On the phone I see heycam, glenn (muted), ed, Doug_Schepers, cyril, +1.415.832.aaaa 20:05:07 zakim, aaaa is me 20:05:07 +krit; got it 20:07:20 Zakim, pick a scribe 20:07:20 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose krit 20:07:29 scribeNick: krit 20:07:45 first topic: telcomtime 20:07:48 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Meetings/telcon-time-vote-april-2012 20:07:53 s/first // 20:08:02 topic: telcomtime 20:08:08 +Tav 20:09:14 Zakim, who is making noise? 20:09:29 heycam, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: heycam (35%), Doug_Schepers (70%) 20:12:29 heycam: most might have less problems with proposal 2 20:13:49 heycam: suggest to go with 2 than 20:13:55 Tav: that's fine with me 20:14:35 resolution: telcoms will be at 21: UTC once all people are in summer time 20:15:11 Zakim, mute me 20:15:11 heycam should now be muted 20:15:14 Zakim, unmute me 20:15:14 heycam should no longer be muted 20:15:30 Zakim, who is noisy? 20:15:30 zakim, mute me 20:15:30 Tav should now be muted 20:15:34 Zakim, who is making noise? 20:15:44 Zakim, who's noisy? 20:15:45 heycam, listening for 14 seconds I heard sound from the following: krit (35%) 20:15:59 it was Tav :( 20:16:03 krit, listening for 16 seconds I heard sound from the following: heycam (45%), Doug_Schepers (42%), krit (9%) 20:16:08 I'll call in again 20:16:15 shepazu, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: heycam (19%), cyril (71%), krit (14%) 20:16:17 -Tav 20:16:35 cyril: next week just europe changes 20:16:55 +Tav 20:18:27 resolution: keep the current time till the end of the month 20:19:11 topic: SVG 2.0 require,emts 20:19:23 s/topic: SVG 2.0 require,emts/topic: SVG 2.0 requireemts/ 20:19:41 s/topic: SVG 2.0 require,emts/topic: SVG 2.0 requiremets/ 20:20:03 cyril: I try to find the link 20:20:09 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#Detect_if_a_mouse_event_is_on_the_fill_or_stroke 20:20:56 Detect if a mouse event is on the fill or stroke 20:21:27 heycam: nice to have 20:22:10 heycam: allows us not to duplicate the elements 20:22:40 cyril: can we extend mouse events? 20:23:29 cyril: be able to regster events only on the stroke, or shape 20:23:34 cyril: onstrokeclick 20:23:58 heycam: you have to duplicate a lot 20:24:33 heycam: thinking more of the dupl. of existing events 20:24:45 cyril: might be handy 20:25:18 heycam: not sure if i like the idea for the new events 20:25:27 ed: makes it harder to deal with pointer events 20:25:49 ed: haveing some way of setting where the events came from doesn't sound expesnsive 20:26:08 heycam: we could send a mail to the DOM mailing list what people think there 20:26:32 Tav: would it be aproblem if you resize a window when you have a border 20:26:39 heycam: might be 20:27:46 cyril: clikcing on the stroke would give you a feedback what you clicked as well as a point where 20:27:52 cyril: stroke or fill 20:28:11 heycam: what about isPointOnTheStroke, or isPointOnThe Fill 20:28:28 shepazu: feels strange to me 20:28:52 shepazu: would not only be fill and strokebut marker as well 20:29:18 shepazu: what is the equivalent in CSS? borderoutline or background? 20:29:29 heycam: would be on the DOM SVG elements 20:29:38 heycam: more like events 20:29:50 onmouseover="if (this.isPointOnStroke(evt.clientX, evt.clientY)) { … }" 20:29:58 shepazu: Iam a user I click on the stroke of the circle 20:30:03 shepazu: what does the code do? 20:30:17 shepazu: that is differen 20:30:38 heycam: yes, the example is kind of stupid 20:30:48 shepazu: ok, but it looks more interessting to me 20:30:58 s/would it be aproblem if you resize a window/isn't this equivalent to the use case of clicking on a border to resize a window/ 20:31:07 shepazu: we have get intersection BLA 20:31:33 onmouseover="if (this.isPointOnStroke(evt))..." even? 20:31:36 shepazu: like getIntersectionList 20:31:39 onmouseover="var markerIndex = this.getIndexOfMarkerThisPointIsOver(evt.clientX, evt.clientY); …" 20:31:56 shepazu: it could return which parts of this element does this point hit 20:32:07 shepazu: it doesn't have to use an event 20:32:23 shepazu: for collistion detection might be useful 20:32:23 isPointInPath would be useful too, in this case... 20:33:15 shepazu: it might not useful it self, so it might be a rectanlge by size one 20:33:31 heycam: we might except it then as a requirement 20:34:01 resolution: SVG 2 will make it easier to detect if an mouse event is on the stroke or fill of an element 20:34:21 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#SMIL_data_feedback 20:34:34 SMIL data feedback 20:34:42 cyril: we can look at it 20:34:58 heycam: looks like simulation 20:35:16 rrsagent, pointer 20:35:16 See http://www.w3.org/2012/03/22-svg-irc#T20-35-16 20:35:17 heycam: seems to be complexed data based input to SMIL animations 20:35:23 heycam: might be useful to 20:35:50 heycam: give me an action 20:36:30 action: heycam will look at data feedback for SMIL and stays in contact with David 20:36:31 Created ACTION-3251 - Will look at data feedback for SMIL and stays in contact with David [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-03-29]. 20:37:04 resolution: SVG 2 will not have SMIL data feedback until we accept requirement after clarification 20:37:28 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#SMIL_time_containers 20:37:41 cyril: we kind of reolved time container already 20:39:58 heycam: We are waiting for Brian about feedback 20:40:09 heycam: he might be more aware of the needs 20:40:24 heycam: it is likely that he suggest that we have time container in SVG 2 20:41:02 cyril: we don't need to resolve it now 20:41:19 krit: we should at least have an action to look at it 20:41:30 heycam: I talk to Brian till the next telcon 20:41:46 cyril: we should move on to the next agenda topic 20:42:03 s/we don't need to resolve it now/if we don't resolve it now, we should discuss the next phase/ 20:42:34 cabanier has joined #svg 20:42:48 topic: SVG 2 next phase 20:42:49 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0079.html 20:42:50 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0079.html 20:43:11 cyril: can you summarize? 20:43:25 cyril: we have so many requirements, to many for get the spec in time? 20:43:45 cyril: we should pick up topics and need to make choices 20:44:13 heycam: I agree 20:44:22 heycam: discussed that in sydney as well 20:44:34 cyril: how many proposals do we expect to proceed 20:44:39 cyril: even 0 is a lot 20:44:45 s/0/20/ 20:45:16 cyril: working on it to the end of july is really aggressively 20:45:36 heycam: how many proposals do we have? 20:45:43 cyril: it's in my email 20:45:55 cyril: 126? 20:46:28 heycam: pick the things you are interessted in and push it forward 20:47:22 heycam: we should start a wiki page where people put ther names on the feature 20:47:23 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#z-index 20:48:08 cyril: put your name under the feature on the list above 20:48:18 heycam: we should have realistic time frames 20:48:44 heycam: idea: pick a feature, put your name on it , write the spec, the test 20:50:14 heycam: we can speak about it to the next week telcon 20:50:20 heycam: the timeframes... 20:50:30 cyril: next or in two weeks 20:50:59 cyril: need a list of requ. that need a written down proposal 20:52:24 krit: what about fixed time frames for discussions on telcoms? 20:52:25 -cyril 20:52:47 +cyril 20:53:00 krit: if a topic takes more time it gets cut off till the next telcom 20:53:06 krit: like the CSS WG 20:53:17 heycam: Proposals should come on the list first 20:53:24 heycam: and discussed there 20:53:41 heycam: if needed the discussion is done on the tel com 20:53:58 cyril: who owns a feature will decide if it needs discussed on telcom 20:54:20 cyril: two people want a feature, how do we decide who gets it? 20:54:28 heycam: we should assign on it before 20:54:34 heycam: working on it 20:54:46 heycam: someone wants to work on it? 20:55:01 cyril: sometime you have two different ideas 20:55:03 heycam: sure 20:55:22 heycam: we should be clear who is driving which feature 20:57:56 heycam: get the topics till next week? 20:58:01 ed: fine 20:58:08 heycam: I send a mail to the list 20:58:41 action: heycam will send a mail to the list to put their names to the SVG 2 requirements 20:58:41 Created ACTION-3252 - Will send a mail to the list to put their names to the SVG 2 requirements [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-03-29]. 21:00:11 action: Nikos produce a list of requirements that need proposals 21:00:11 Created ACTION-3253 - Produce a list of requirements that need proposals [on Nikos Andronikos - due 2012-03-29]. 21:01:13 ScribeNick: heycam 21:01:26 Topic: css transforms presentation attributes 21:01:37 krit: should the new presentation attributes allow unitless values and scientific notation? 21:01:50 heycam: I think they should 21:02:04 krit: for example transform-origin="100,100" 21:02:06 … I agree 21:02:15 … I wrote some test cases without thinking about, and I wrote unitless values 21:02:22 … I think it's more native for SVG people to use unitless values 21:02:29 … as well as scientific notation 21:02:59 … using user units makes more sense in an SVG context than using px 21:03:09 … so I propose we support both in all presentation attributes 21:03:34 heycam: what is the set of new presentation attributes? 21:03:59 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-transforms/ 21:04:06 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-transforms/#property-index 21:04:28 cyril: so perspective, perspective-origin and transform-origin 21:04:55 heycam: I think authors will expect to be able to use user units 21:04:56 also see http://dev.w3.org/SVG/proposals/css-animation/animation-proposal.html 21:05:01 issue#2 21:05:05 cabanier has joined #svg 21:05:35 ed: issue 2 in that document covers exactly this issue 21:06:02 krit: do we have to specify the syntax in the css spec? 21:06:49 heycam: do you want a link to SVG length/number syntax? 21:07:04 krit: at the moment they are not specified 21:07:28 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-transforms/#transform-attribute-specificity 21:07:35 http://dev.w3.org/SVG/proposals/css-animation/animation-proposal.html#issue2 21:08:27 heycam: I think it would be better to link or define the syntax of the presentation 21:08:49 heycam: easiest would be to link to and from 1.1's types chapter 21:09:26 http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/types.html 21:09:28 heycam: the issue 2 in the animation proposal aligns with what we want then, user units allowed in presentation attributes 21:10:14 ed: I assume we would support all of the new types in the presentation attributes 21:10:31 s/types/units/ 21:10:36 heycam: what about calc()? 21:12:16 heycam: just want to be sure the grammar/parser will work with say scientific notation inside calc expressions 21:12:36 ed: I think we should try to stay as close to the css syntax where we can 21:13:00 heycam: do you want to allow unitless values in the middle of calc? 21:13:02 ed: good question 21:13:06 shepazu: I would want to 21:13:11 krit: for webkit it wouldn't be a problem 21:16:37 -Tav 21:17:19 +Tav 21:17:59 RESOLUTION: SVG WG is happy with allowing unitless numbers and scientific notation in the css transforms presentation attributes 21:18:45 ISSUE: Should we allow unitless numbers and scientific notation inside calc expressions in presentation attributes? 21:18:45 Created ISSUE-2442 - Should we allow unitless numbers and scientific notation inside calc expressions in presentation attributes? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2442/edit . 21:22:32 ACTION: Dirk to mail public-fx about unitless numbers in presentation attributes 21:22:33 Created ACTION-3254 - Mail public-fx about unitless numbers in presentation attributes [on Dirk Schulze - due 2012-03-29]. 21:24:51 Topic: intrinsic sizing and percetnage values for inline svg in html 21:24:59 ed: some questions from our layout team about sizing of svg in html 21:25:14 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0158.html 21:25:15 … would like to know mozilla's opinion on this given their open bugs 21:25:24 … this needs clarifying in a spec somewhere 21:25:29 ISSUE-2241? 21:25:29 ISSUE-2241 -- 1. Introduction - More explanations about the used coordinate system -- raised 21:25:29 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2241 21:26:12 ed: I think this is specific to where you have percetanges specified, or not specified at all, and whether or not they define an intrinsic size/ratio 21:26:27 … I think it comes down to how you want to resolve the lengths, and tweaking the spec wording to that effect 21:26:37 … reading the mozilla bug, it seems that mozilla went and did something else 21:26:55 … so it would be nice to have something defined in the spec 21:27:03 … we have at least three different behaviours among the 4 browsers 21:27:24 heycam: do you have an opinion on which way to resolve it? 21:27:31 ed: I would prefer if it doesn't break a lot of content, of course 21:27:46 … in the first case what opera/firefox do at the moment would be good 21:27:51 … for the second example, I'm not sure either way 21:28:03 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2441 has more details than the mail 21:28:10 https://bug668163.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=545713 21:28:56 krit: there is a webkit bug about that, so it might be changed a bit 21:29:01 dropping now, have another appt 21:29:06 -glenn 21:29:44 -krit 21:30:33 ACTION: Cameron to ask jwatt about the percentage sizing issue 21:30:33 Created ACTION-3255 - Ask jwatt about the percentage sizing issue [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-03-29]. 21:31:35 ACTION-3255: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2441 21:31:35 ACTION-3255 Ask jwatt about the percentage sizing issue notes added 21:32:55 -ed 21:32:57 -Doug_Schepers 21:32:59 -heycam 21:33:01 -Tav 21:33:08 Chair: Cameron 21:33:12 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0170.html 21:33:13 -cyril 21:33:15 GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM has ended 21:33:15 Attendees were heycam, glenn, ed, Doug_Schepers, cyril, +1.415.832.aaaa, krit, Tav 21:33:35 RRSAgent, make minutes 21:33:35 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/22-svg-minutes.html heycam 22:55:48 birtles has joined #svg 23:08:28 thorton_ has joined #svg