15:02:19 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y 15:02:19 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/22-html-a11y-irc 15:02:21 RRSAgent, make logs world 15:02:23 Zakim, this will be 2119 15:02:24 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 15:02:24 Date: 22 March 2012 15:02:45 Zakim has joined #html-a11y 15:02:49 zakim, this is 2119 15:02:50 trackbot, start meeting 15:03:08 zakim, agenda? 15:03:11 ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM 15:03:29 I see nothing on the agenda 15:03:33 +Cooper 15:03:56 Meeting: HTML-A11Y Task Force Teleconference 15:03:56 Chair: Janina_Sajka 15:03:56 agenda+ Clarifications on Issues Raised Last Week 15:03:56 agenda+ Longdesc and the New ARIA-DescribedAt 15:03:56 agenda+ Proposed CP to Extend Longdesc 15:03:59 agenda+ Canvas: Recent Developments & Their Implications 15:04:01 agenda+ FYI on Potential Objections & Appeals 15:04:04 agenda+ F2F for the TF? Participation at the HTML-WG F2F? 15:04:06 agenda+ Other Business 15:04:09 agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open 15:04:11 zakim, ??P45 is Janina_Sajka 15:04:11 agenda+ Identify Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List 15:04:14 agenda+ be done 15:04:18 zakim, ??P24 is Leif_Halvard_Silli 15:04:44 +Janina_Sajka; got it 15:04:57 +Leif_Halvard_Silli; got it 15:05:24 +Cynthia_Shelly 15:06:23 -Judy 15:06:39 LeifHSilli has joined #html-a11y 15:07:11 scribe: David 15:07:35 +Judy 15:08:38 jb: will text Rcih 15:08:48 s/Rcih/Rich 15:08:53 zakim, next item 15:08:53 agendum 1. "Clarifications on Issues Raised Last Week" taken up [from janina] 15:10:05 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Mar/0319.html 15:10:53 Janina: questions came up last week concerned... need to clarify... tf has authority by charter to come to consensus decision and make recommendations... 2 did we come to consensus on longdesc... js sent out uri with charter, and the formal email that js sent notifying us our consensus... 15:12:29 jb: clarifyies that Mike S last week was not accurate... need to ensure that we do have Charter to make recommendations, developing consensus and make recommendations... many worked hard to reach consensus 15:12:55 s/ensure/ensure that is is clear that 15:13:20 jb... rich will join call soon 15:13:55 richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y 15:14:01 zakim, next item 15:14:01 agendum 2. "Longdesc and the New ARIA-DescribedAt" taken up [from janina] 15:14:22 +Rich 15:15:17 js: longdesc and describedAT, quicker to talk about it than email... 15:16:52 rs... DescribedAT not a proposal... it is a wai aria enhancement of longdesc... not getting in middle of longdesc... not an offical draft, need to follow process, so it's a personal proposal, until approved by aria group... wants to talk to manufacturers... what is different. don't care what it's called 15:17:18 rs describeda alloies to all elements of host language including SVG etc.. 15:19:13 if we knew atribute was available cold we put it on the video tag... etc... in shoulds... would like to see browsers ... walking into museum with kiosk... could touch a picture of giraffe find out more information... visual indication tat it is present. if so can be acivated and brought up and closed and left the user were they were... problem with longdesc... but never provided that level... 15:19:15 ...of functionality... 15:20:14 aria up to this point has not been used to tell the browser how to render certain things, so i need to talk to those manufacturers to get their fedback on whether it makes sense to go forward..browser needs to provide a mechanism to bring this up 15:21:27 js need to think about how we react.... are we still in support of longdesc? describedby has been kicked around need to ask whether to put that to bed... 15:21:52 jf describedby will not have api 15:23:13 rs well actually yes... will be in the api... in iaccessible2 query it... and an alternative input device, you could put the activating o the alternate keyboard.l.. onscreen keyboard... it would be exposed to the api... probably can do it uia 15:23:23 cynthia... yes we could do that in uia 15:23:55 js should be a visual indication that it is there... 15:24:02 jf woulc it be hidden 15:24:14 rs it would be in url 15:24:37 rs not good in fallback content in canvas 15:24:46 -Judy 15:24:47 +Judy 15:25:06 rs would be fully navigable 15:25:39 janina let's keep it to strategy... 15:25:54 q? 15:25:59 rs aria is not constrained by timeline of html 15:26:48 jb interesting... have questions... where is it being designed... in aria space... encourage rs to stay close to aria task force... 15:28:10 jb html wg side of things... this has been focusing discussion... early implementation ideas, can be problematic before it iws discussed with aria group... is this taking focus away from the longdesc ... doesn't remove need for conformant bridge... 15:28:40 dialogue has shifted in last few days... percieved as a proposal... what can we do to clarify that we need longdesc 15:30:24 Judy has joined #html-a11y 15:30:42 rs not taking a public position o longdesc... until aria 1.1 is implemented in browsers... wont' see aria 1.1 until a newerversion of a browser has it... in browsers today longdesc not well supported... fixing longesc will require several... won't see any major changes in FF until about version 15 15:31:05 can't pull longdesc out now 15:31:55 jb concerned that we've opened up a big issue with describedat... 15:32:13 and confused longdesc... 15:32:18 q? 15:32:31 ack jan 15:33:12 rs regarding enhancing longdesc... is that going to confuse descibedAT 15:34:17 jf issue 30, 195, 204, with this issue... timing couldn't be worse... chairs won't make decision because there seems to be active discussion 15:36:21 cynthiaa shelly the value is it's out of html politics, and it will solve the technical problems, and getting it into aria is better 15:37:49 q+ 15:40:18 jf specific to 195 sylvia asked for extension... rs released wai-aria to issues... propose a resolution including longdesc 15:40:57 cynthia this is an engineering.... obsolete but conforming longdesc... we should back of of longdesc 15:42:00 jb obsolete but conforming causes an error flag.... concerned about that 15:42:35 rs a warning would be a benefit, not an error 15:43:07 jb thought rs was proposing a conversion path 15:43:43 janina obsolete but conforming would still require chairs to move on it... it's not in there at all right now 15:43:47 rrsagent, make minutes 15:43:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/22-html-a11y-minutes.html Judy 15:45:09 LeonieW has joined #html-a11y 15:45:14 zakim/ next item 15:45:29 zakim /next item 15:46:14 q+ 15:46:17 -John_Foliot 15:46:22 Leif motivation for proposal to extend longdesc... 15:46:49 proposes any element that is an image 15:47:08 q? 15:47:46 ack c 15:48:54 CS thins its reasonable... from an engineering proposal it's the same as described at, my main propblem with longdesc is that it was underestimated... at the end of the day it's an attribute... 15:48:57 q- 15:49:01 ack ja 15:49:07 ack ri 15:49:49 rs to me its a strategy discussion... i would want something that can be applied to other host technologies... i have a consistent set of attributes... that the value of aria 15:50:03 +John_Foliot 15:50:11 rs would rather take wai aria approach 15:50:26 rrsagent, make minutes world 15:50:26 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes world', Judy. Try /msg RRSAgent help 15:50:40 rrsagent, make log world 15:51:54 want something that could be put on a DIV.... there has got to be a path, but don't want browsers to yank it out... so obsolete but conforming would be better... an unofficial draft... 15:52:54 leif... RS said aria describedAT should be visual indication? 15:52:59 rs yes 15:53:37 leif laura's longdesc proposal is saying is should not be a visual indication. 15:55:31 jf the issue ... cannot expect graphic designer to put something... but that goes back to d link which was unsuccessful... perhaps a user setting in the browser bakes it visual, not a responsibility o the graphic designer... 15:56:22 js does longdesc continue to be developed, or should designing energy need to go into describedAT. 15:59:16 jb we should extend 30 minutes... on future meetings... 16:00:03 topic: canvas 16:00:19 s/extend 30 minutes/extend the meeting to 90 minutes by starting 30 minutes earlier/ 16:01:39 rs ian put in a path proposal into canvas, no discussion... confuses issues... Microsoft won't support... for hit testing, introduces a path.... doesn't help hit testing... 16:03:02 s/underestimated/underspecified/ 16:03:20 rs dom and web components... ian is suggesting you can use another dom... messes up the native host language you are applying that to... even if you had a host language with feathers... alluding to an object model that we haven't seen.. 16:03:24 -John_Foliot 16:04:00 Note on @Longdesc: I disagree with "obsolete but conforming". May be in HTML6. But not in HTML5. The perspective that we can get @aria-describedAT is a strong reason to only make @longdesc valid for . 16:04:35 rs ian is making changes without us being able to review them... it's in the WHAT space... concerns me... if it's going to be introduced over here... 16:04:45 js thinks it's more HTML.next 16:06:28 Cynthia this wold be a huge project and is beyond Ian... even if was it would take ... year to get it right.... or more... way too big a project in HTML5 timeline 16:06:38 chair: Janina_Sajka 16:06:56 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Mar/0318.html 16:07:01 regrets: Laura_Carlson 16:07:11 rrsagent, make minutes 16:07:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/22-html-a11y-minutes.html MichaelC 16:07:18 -Judy 16:07:28 -Cynthia_Shelly 16:07:30 -Rich 16:07:31 -Leif_Halvard_Silli 16:07:31 -Janina_Sajka 16:07:32 -David_MacDonald 16:07:41 -Cooper 16:07:42 WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended 16:07:42 Attendees were Judy, David_MacDonald, John_Foliot, Cooper, Janina_Sajka, Leif_Halvard_Silli, Cynthia_Shelly, Rich 16:09:42 janina has left #html-a11y 16:11:13 rrsagent, make minutes 16:11:13 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/22-html-a11y-minutes.html MichaelC 16:16:30 LeonieW_ has joined #html-a11y 16:50:57 zakim, bye 16:50:57 Zakim has left #html-a11y 16:50:59 rrsagent, bye 16:50:59 I see no action items