01:02:09 RRSAgent has joined #dap 01:02:09 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-irc 01:02:11 RRSAgent, make logs world 01:02:11 Zakim has joined #dap 01:02:13 Zakim, this will be DAP 01:02:13 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 01:02:14 Meeting: Device APIs Working Group Teleconference 01:02:14 Date: 19 March 2012 01:02:48 dsr has joined #dap 01:03:15 a12u has joined #dap 01:03:26 present+ Bryan_Sullivan 01:03:27 OliverD has joined #dap 01:03:59 Cathy has joined #dap 01:04:21 a12u_ has joined #dap 01:04:35 a12u_ has left #dap 01:04:37 Jungkee has joined #dap 01:04:43 Scribe: Josh_Soref 01:04:46 Wonsuk has joined #dap 01:04:47 aizu has joined #dap 01:04:53 gbillock has joined #dap 01:05:11 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/wiki/F2F_Agenda_20-22_March_2012,_Shenzhen,_China 01:05:28 darobin has joined #dap 01:05:35 nwidell has joined #dap 01:05:38 RRSAgent, draft minutes 01:05:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html Josh_Soref 01:05:48 Qiuling has joined #DAP 01:05:55 Chair: Robin_Berjon, Frederick_Hirsch 01:05:55 Bo_Chen has joined #dap 01:06:03 Stephan_Steglich has joined #dap 01:06:13 RRSAgent, this meeting spans timezones 01:06:13 I'm logging. I don't understand 'this meeting spans timezones', darobin. Try /msg RRSAgent help 01:06:13 Present+ Robin_Berjon, Frederick_Hirsch 01:06:23 RRSAgent, meeting spans timezones 01:06:23 I'm logging. I don't understand 'meeting spans timezones', darobin. Try /msg RRSAgent help 01:06:25 Present+ Wonsuk_Lee 01:06:27 RRSAgent, meeting spans midnight 01:07:18 daniel has joined #dap 01:07:19 Present+ Cathy_Chan 01:07:58 Claes has joined #dap 01:08:20 Youngsun_Ryu has joined #dap 01:08:24 [ fjh describes Agenda ] 01:08:47 derek has joined #dap 01:10:05 shan has joined #dap 01:10:06 s/01:06 < darobin> RRSAgent, this meeting spans timezones 01:10:10 zhang has joined #dap 01:10:21 s/RRSAgent, this meeting spans timezones// 01:10:32 s!s/01:06 < darobin> RRSAgent, this meeting spans timezones!! 01:10:41 Deepanshu has joined #dap 01:11:53 fjh: we'll look into splitting contacts apiece from data formats 01:12:11 kensaku has joined #dap 01:12:33 Topic: Introductions 01:13:19 Bryan: Bryan Sullivan, AT&T 01:13:40 James: James Hawkins, Google 01:13:55 Present+ dsr 01:14:07 Goals for F2F include the following: 1. progressing webintents, raising and resolving issues 01:14:17 Josh_Soref: Josh Soref, Scribe, RIM 01:14:34 Oliver Don, France Telecom 01:14:52 2. determining issues of integration of webintents with other DAP specifications such as Contacts in order to unblock work on those 01:15:03 Quiling_Pan: Quiling_Pan, Huawei 01:15:18 ... From software 01:15:24 ... Company 01:15:33 xingxin has joined #DAP 01:15:48 Present+ Deepanshu_Gautam 01:15:56 Roi : Roi, from Huawei device 01:16:18 ... Welcome everyone to Shenzhen 01:16:25 3. Work through plans to develop System level APIs 01:16:47 4. Consider other possible new work such as NFC, review use cases etc 01:16:49 AAZ: From Huawei browser 01:17:04 Greg: Greg Bullock, Google 01:17:26 AAB: AAB1, From Samsung 01:17:49 s/Bullock/Billock/ 01:17:50 *Greg Billock 01:18:01 s/*Greg Billock// 01:18:43 5. Resolve issues with current work items in order to progress, e.g. Feature permissions 01:18:55 6. Regular business 01:19:06 rrsagent, generate minutes 01:19:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html fjh 01:19:09 Won_Sung: Samsung 01:19:23 Jungkee Song 01:19:25 ... We worked on Battery 01:19:26 s/Won_Sung/WonSuk/ 01:19:52 Jungkee Song working on Tizen browser, interested in gallery and NFC 01:19:53 Jungkee: working on Tizen browser 01:20:12 Soonbo: Soonbo Han, From LGE 01:20:18 s/Jungkee Song working on Tizen browser, interested in gallery and NFC// 01:20:26 Claus: Claus, from Sony Mobile 01:20:28 s/AAB/Youngsun 01:20:33 s/Tizen browser/Tizen browser and NFC/ 01:20:41 Franz : Webinos 01:20:49 Claes has joined #dap 01:21:05 Darobin: freelance, Co-chair 01:21:21 s/Claus/Claes/ 01:21:35 AA3: ... 01:21:37 s/Franz :/Stephan/ 01:22:15 [ introduction. Of China Unicom ] 01:22:24 Bo_Chen from China Unicom 01:22:34 Derek Jiang from China Unicom 01:22:37 chengyan zhang from china unicom 01:23:03 kensaku komatsu from NTT communications 01:23:10 xingxin li from china unicom 01:23:25 Hiroyuki Aizu from TOSHIBA 01:23:57 s/Stephan/Stephan, Fraunhofer FOKUS, webinos/ 01:24:00 RITTa: RITT, we focus on mobile Internet standards in China 01:24:28 Yuan has joined #dap 01:24:29 Fjh: thanks shunan and deepanshu 01:24:45 Topic: Minutes approval 01:25:01 RESOLUTION: Minutes from 13 March 2012 are approved 01:25:24 Topic: Host Presentation 01:26:04 Host: Good morning 01:26:18 ... Huawei just joined W3C 01:26:36 ... We just reorganized 01:26:54 gao has joined #dap 01:26:56 ... From focusing on carriers as customers 01:27:03 ... To end users 01:27:26 [ organizational structure ] 01:27:51 [ growth chart ] 01:28:08 [ global presence ] 01:28:22 Daniel-Samsung has joined #dap 01:28:46 R_Berkoff has joined #dap 01:28:47 [ our customers ] 01:29:14 [ 300 carriers / 200 countries ] 01:29:36 no audio bridge? 01:30:13 Host: before we focused on 3GPP and OMA 01:30:19 samarth has joined #dap 01:30:31 ... Now we're looking to W3C 01:30:54 [ portfolios ] 01:31:19 Zakim, who is on the call? 01:31:19 sorry, Josh_Soref, I don't know what conference this is 01:31:20 On IRC I see samarth, R_Berkoff, gao, Yuan, Claes, xingxin, kensaku, Deepanshu, zhang, shan, derek, Youngsun_Ryu, Stephan_Steglich, Bo_Chen, Qiuling, nwidell, darobin, gbillock, 01:31:20 ... aizu, Wonsuk, Jungkee, Cathy, OliverD, a12u, dsr, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, bryan, sicking, mounir, AnssiK, glenn, hiroto, slightlyoff, Josh_Soref, lgombos, trackbot, ilkka, 01:31:21 Daniel-Samsung has joined #dap 01:31:21 The bridge is open now 01:31:22 ... rektide, hiroto_away, dom 01:31:32 thx...audio ok 01:31:35 shunan has joined #DAP 01:31:49 zakim, this is dap 01:31:49 sorry, fjh, I do not see a conference named 'dap' in progress or scheduled at this time 01:32:37 [ Terminal Company ] 01:32:48 https://www.google.com/search?q=huawei+pegasus&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=k3o&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&prmd=imvns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=FN5nT6rXAo2eiQfulsm2Cg&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CBQQ_AUoAQ&biw=1276&bih=671 01:32:54 Its huawei internal conference bridge: Dial in number: 0086 0755 28560880, Passcode: 010813889 01:33:26 [ Picture of Pegasus built of mobile phones ] 01:33:45 [ Internet Service ] 01:34:06 Host: TianTian browser 01:34:24 [ Research Standards ] 01:34:36 [ Why W3C? ] 01:34:55 Host: WebRTC 01:34:59 ... 01:35:23 [ Shenzhen F2F ] 01:35:44 [ SkyB (TianTian ) Demo ] 01:35:58 [ Group Dinner ] 01:36:27 [ Visit to Huawei base on Thursday after meeting ] 01:36:41 Host: thank you 01:36:54 [ Applause ] 01:37:04 Ruinan has joined #dap 01:37:09 Deepanshu: Deepanshu 01:37:37 ... I'm going to show you a browser we made for this meeting 01:38:06 ... I will show the browser accessing camera and microphone 01:38:18 ... We open the browser 01:38:45 [ clicks bookmark to Web application ] 01:39:20 Deepanshu: let me click take picture 01:39:29 ... No consent prompt 01:39:49 ... Because the click is deemed as consent 01:40:10 ... Click record (for audio ) 01:40:30 ... There will be an icon 01:40:53 bryan_sullivan has joined #dap 01:41:08 ... You can select a contact from this phone's address book 01:41:19 ... I will select myself 01:41:35 ... You can get a preview 01:42:04 ... And clicking send invokes the default email client 01:42:14 ... Sending, done 01:42:49 ... I can't prove conformance to DAP 01:43:05 ... We don't have specifications 01:43:18 Topic: WebIntents 01:43:38 James: I'm going to talk about WebIntents 01:43:52 ... Late high level bindings 01:44:15 ... We shipped a prototype in Chrome 18 beta 01:44:27 http://webintents.org/ -> Web Intents web site 01:44:33 ... We turned it off for Chrome 18 01:44:46 ... It will be on for Chrome 19 01:44:54 http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/web-intents/raw-file/tip/spec/Overview.html -> Web Intents specification 01:45:00 ... I'll do a short demo 01:45:19 [ sets up presentation ] 01:45:32 James: Imagemator 01:45:53 ... This Site is around 30 lines of code 01:46:08 ... I can pick an image 01:46:22 ... For this application, 01:46:56 ... I chose the action "pick", and a type (mime type) 01:47:18 [ dialog chosen ] 01:47:41 s/chosen/chooser/ 01:48:20 James: this second application gets pictures from Picasa 01:48:41 ... I've now connected to web applications 01:48:58 ... I'm not sure if you're familiar with memes 01:50:00 ... Maybe you're a start-up not focused on some thing, let the cloud do it for you. 01:50:18 Daniel-Samsung has joined #dap 01:50:19 ... Mememator 01:50:43 ... A service registers to support an action 01:50:44 .. 01:50:56 ? link to demo 01:50:59 And the user chooses which to use 01:51:19 ... This solves the Nascar problem 01:51:40 ... Too many icons for things users don't want 01:52:42 ... Studies show that if someone doesn't like an icon, EG Facebook 01:52:55 ... People won't want to share at all 01:53:01 Ruinan_ has joined #dap 01:53:18 Deepanshu: I presume there's a registry 01:53:35 James: currently, in Chrome 01:53:35 Wu has joined #DAP 01:53:51 Can someone define the "nascar problem" or provide a link to info about it? 01:54:19 ... There's a proposal for Web applications to use a certain tag to let user agent recognize a service 01:54:38 ... The actual of a user visiting a site 01:55:02 ... Is partial interest / consent for registration 01:55:24 Daniel has joined #dap 01:55:32 Deepanshu: do I get four Intent registration requests? 01:55:53 Deepanshu notes may not want all intents on page to be registered by default 01:55:53 q+ 01:56:06 James: we're trying to move the action into the picker 01:56:29 James notes that browser maintains registrations 01:56:41 ... And when you remove something, we try to understand that 01:56:41 ack bryan 01:57:00 Bryan: What is the Nascar problem? 01:57:11 s/move the action/move the user preference 01:57:12 liu has joined #dap 01:57:20 Fjh: Nascar didn't Actually have that problem 01:57:32 ... It's all the pictures 01:57:42 Nascar problem is the proliferation of too many ads on cars 01:57:49 Wu has left #DAP 01:57:52 Bryan: ok, it's all the noise from the pictures 01:57:53 q- 01:57:54 s/problem/problem, they sell the ads, but confusing clutter on a web page with too many ads/ 01:58:04 rrsagent, generate minutes 01:58:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html fjh 01:58:13 Claes: have you considered 01:58:15 .. 01:58:27 s/..// 01:58:37 WU has joined #DAP 01:58:47 ... Have you considered having a server registry? 01:59:03 James: not for Chrome 01:59:16 Jack has joined #dap 01:59:20 s/have that problem/have that problem they sell the ads, but confusing clutter on a web page with too many ads/ 01:59:31 Claes: the specification doesn't currently talk about this? 01:59:42 James: not currently 01:59:43 zhouhj has joined #dap 01:59:59 s/problem, they sell the ads, but confusing clutter on a web page with too many ads/problem is the proliferation of too many ads on cars/ 02:00:05 rrsagent, generate minutes 02:00:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html fjh 02:00:27 Josh: intents show sites user has already found 02:00:49 Deepanshu: is the intent that 02:01:05 jcdufourd has joined #dap 02:01:08 q+ 02:01:12 Deepanshu: yes, sites that have already been found are registered 02:01:18 ack bryan 02:01:25 [ scribe falls behind ] 02:01:46 lizij has joined #DAP 02:01:48 James: how do you transfer data? 02:01:49 .. 02:01:57 s/..// 02:02:04 ack bryan 02:02:16 ... You have to save locally and upload by hand 02:02:18 .. 02:02:25 s/..// 02:02:35 ... Or make publicly available 02:03:01 ... And tell the first page which services you use 02:03:21 I think the process of registration in a broader sense, e.g. through an out-of-band provisioning process etc is out of scope, as the W3C is focused on the user-centric model 02:03:22 s/proliferation of too many ads on cars is the proliferation of too many ads on cars/proliferation of too many ads on cars/ 02:03:37 rrsagent, generate minutes 02:03:37 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html fjh 02:03:47 Greg: the specification will focus on registration and data transmission 02:04:14 ... But Chrome will help users when they don't have a provider 02:04:50 Fjh: so if you need to pick and don't have something 02:04:51 .. 02:05:04 s/..// 02:05:07 dangpei has joined #dap 02:05:16 You'll get a chance to install at the same time 02:05:41 q+ to bring up default/fallback intent handlers 02:06:03 James: Chrome has an application store 02:06:18 ack darobin 02:06:18 darobin, you wanted to bring up default/fallback intent handlers 02:06:20 ... This is expanding on schema.org 02:06:25 s/You/... You/ 02:06:56 Darobin: there was a proposal for fallback 02:07:37 James: we can't tell sites there's no registered provider 02:08:09 ... But we could let a Site offer a provider 02:08:23 q+ 02:08:31 q+ 02:08:31 acl bryan 02:08:36 ack bryan 02:08:44 ... Which could become the default for that service 02:08:48 s/acl bryan// 02:09:03 Oliver: most of the intents make sense.... 02:09:11 ... Discover doesn't 02:09:24 James: we intend to remove that 02:09:48 Bryan: there was an interest for Home networking 02:10:10 James: there's a conflict between extending and breaking 02:10:25 ... Discovery didn't make sense 02:10:53 q? 02:10:57 q+ 02:11:09 Greg: a design goal of Intents is to leave the namespace very open 02:11:33 ... So when we botch an intent, there's space for people to replace them 02:11:53 ... The intents sweet spot use case 02:12:06 ... Is something light 02:12:12 if the discover verb will be removed how will that affect the intent of the use case described in http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebIntents/SonyMobile_-_Local_Network_Service_Discovery ? 02:12:15 q+ 02:12:19 ... But some things won't work 02:12:56 James: feel free to ask questions 02:13:19 ... I'd like to talk about some modifications 02:13:37 ray has joined #dap 02:13:48 ... There's a proposal on whatwg to replace register protocol handler 02:13:50 Web Intents does seem to overlap with the register handler APIs 02:14:13 ... And register content handler with WebIntents 02:14:17 The discovery intent might be needed for local network service discovery with Web Intents. Let us discuss this afternoon. 02:14:52 ... For Chrome 19, register content handler can be replaced by WebIntents 02:14:56 q? 02:15:17 Present+ JeanClaude_Dufourd 02:15:19 ... For unknown content types, we will show a picker based on Intents 02:15:26 ... Explicit intents 02:16:03 ... An explicit intent is when a client wants to use the intent apiece with a specific handler 02:16:45 /s/apiece/api/ 02:16:49 http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2012-February/034881.html -> drop RPH/RCH 02:16:58 s/apiece/api/ 02:17:10 Greg: for registration / authentication, the ui is an unspoofable 02:17:13 .. 02:17:22 s/..// 02:17:56 [explicit intent == named instance of a service rather than a named type of service] 02:18:02 Greg: the explicit intent is very like defaulting 02:18:16 q? 02:18:21 ... I haven't thought it throughout completely 02:18:36 q- 02:18:42 Fjh: the proposal is to replace RPC/RPH with WebIntents 02:18:43 ack fjh 02:18:45 xiaoqiang has joined #dap 02:18:54 Link to description of "explicit intents"? 02:19:13 ... There was a "simplification" proposal which is basically the reverse 02:19:29 James: I appreciate feedback 02:19:39 giuseppe has joined #dap 02:19:41 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-intents/2012Feb/0006.html 02:19:50 ... You may have heard of Mozilla's work 02:20:03 ... We heard from Tyler 02:20:12 fjh: I think you said that registerProtocolHandler and registerContentHander could be replaced by WebIntents 02:20:14 James: yes 02:20:22 ... And listed all of the problems with it 02:20:30 fjh: and this seems to be the inverse of the Hammond email re "simplification" 02:20:43 ... I should send them out 02:20:44 q? 02:20:52 [yes ] 02:21:08 James: trying to make RPC/RPH work 02:21:16 ... Just doesn't work 02:21:25 q? 02:21:32 ... We will send out that write-up 02:22:11 ack bryan 02:22:17 Bryan: to Class's presentation 02:22:19 gbillock has joined #dap 02:22:34 [ Break ] 02:22:37 q- 02:23:04 s/Tyler/Tyler who suggested Web+ protocols/ 02:23:15 Eric has joined #dap 02:23:43 rrsagent, draft minutes 02:23:43 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html OliverD 02:23:43 rrsagent, generate minutes 02:23:43 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html fjh 02:24:19 s!/s/api/api/!! 02:24:21 rrsagent, draft minutes 02:24:21 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html OliverD 02:25:01 Can someone provide a link to Web Plus info, also as asked earlier a link to info on "explicit intents"? 02:25:33 a12u has joined #dap 02:26:38 s¦/s/api/api/¦¦ 02:26:45 rrsagent, draft minutes 02:26:45 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html OliverD 02:29:50 a12u has joined #dap 02:31:22 a1zu has joined #dap 02:35:32 nwidell has joined #dap 02:42:03 nwidell_ has joined #dap 02:46:33 gao has joined #dap 02:46:37 nwidell has joined #dap 02:46:50 [ Reconvening ] 02:47:04 Topic: Huawei visit 02:47:26 a12u has joined #dap 02:47:27 Darobin: we'll end at 3pm on Thursday 02:47:29 Yuan has joined #dap 02:47:31 ... For the tour 02:47:51 Topic: WebIntents Presentation 02:48:11 Eric has joined #dap 02:48:55 aizu has joined #dap 02:49:40 gbillock has joined #dap 02:50:27 zakim, who is here? 02:50:27 sorry, fjh, I don't know what conference this is 02:50:28 On IRC I see gbillock, aizu, Eric, Yuan, a12u, nwidell, gao, giuseppe, xiaoqiang, ray, lizij, jcdufourd, zhouhj, Jack, WU, liu, Daniel-Samsung, bryan_sullivan, samarth, R_Berkoff, 02:50:28 ... Claes, kensaku, Deepanshu, zhang, shan, derek, Youngsun_Ryu, Stephan_Steglich, Bo_Chen, Qiuling, darobin, Wonsuk, Jungkee, Cathy, OliverD, dsr, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, bryan, 02:50:30 ... mounir, AnssiK, glenn, hiroto, slightlyoff, Josh_Soref, lgombos, trackbot, ilkka, rektide, hiroto_away, dom 02:51:08 nwidell (Niklas Widell) on the bridge 02:51:22 Present+ Niklas_Widell 02:51:35 yes audio fine 02:51:49 s/yes audio fine// 02:53:23 xingxin has joined #DAP 02:54:13 ray has joined #dap 02:54:55 lgombos_ has joined #dap 02:55:09 ray has joined #dap 02:56:06 R_Berkoff has joined #dap 02:58:22 rrsagent, generate minutes 02:58:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html Daniel-Samsung 02:59:46 q? 03:01:06 james suggests a possible separate spec on webintents and UPnP registration 03:01:40 ScribeNick: fjh 03:02:23 cathy: UPnP forum might need to be cooperating on this, specifically a new device type for WebIntents 03:02:32 speak louder plz 03:02:54 ... do we have relevant servcices to be defined by type 03:03:17 q+ 03:03:22 Need services to be defined inside UPnP / DLNA? I'm not sure I got the point of that comment. 03:03:31 ... so we need to work on details with UPnP forum 03:03:41 s/servcices/services/ 03:03:49 ack giuseppe 03:04:11 everyone mute please, too much echo 03:04:20 I'll write y question here 03:04:20 james: this work from claes looks very promising 03:04:27 mindong has joined #DAP 03:04:36 s/james suggests/james:/ 03:04:51 I was wondering if there is actually a need for an extension like descroibed in the presentation 03:05:10 would be much easier for browser to map existing services on something like "view" verb 03:05:22 james: we should make UPnP DLNA deliverable to WebIntents task force 03:05:36 we want to reuse existing devices 03:05:47 any extension to UPnp will not work out of the box 03:06:34 action: claes to create new spec how WebIntents UPnP registration 03:06:34 Created ACTION-510 - Create new spec how WebIntents UPnP registration [on Claes Nilsson - due 2012-03-27]. 03:06:52 +1 to the idea of a new spec under the Web Intents TF - we will contribute requirements for that based upon the Web & TV HNTF needs 03:06:57 Ruinan has joined #dap 03:06:57 James to update webIntents wiki for this material 03:07:52 Present+ Laszlo_Gombos 03:08:20 no, e.g. you ca pam "mediaRenderer" service on view 03:08:34 q+ Josh_Soref 03:08:35 s/pam/map/ 03:09:07 q+ to note that UPnP service description may be sufficient by itself in some cases, but doesn't cover new things like websockets and server-sent events 03:09:16 darobin: giuseppe is saying if we do this extension to UPnP then there is issue with many existing deployed devices 03:09:22 q? 03:09:35 it's possible to new devices to act as a gateway to existing UPnP devices, right? So if we added a SSDP tag etc it could be a new feature supported by new devices. 03:09:38 q+ 03:09:41 Claes: we should look at both alternatives 03:10:05 ... the best solutions is if we can have the UPnP extension, but we should look at enabling existing devices 03:10:27 ack Josh_Soref 03:10:28 ack Josh_Soref 03:11:11 Josh_Soref: two docs, one to map existing UPnP verbs to WebIntents, one for existing UPnP existing 03:11:28 ack dsr 03:11:28 dsr, you wanted to note that UPnP service description may be sufficient by itself in some cases, but doesn't cover new things like websockets and server-sent events 03:11:41 dsr: note that UPnP service description may be sufficient by itself in some cases, but doesn't cover new things like websockets and server-sent events 03:11:49 mindong_ has joined #DAP 03:11:53 q? 03:12:08 darobin: will talk to guiseppe about having giuseppe drafting a doc to do webintents with existing UPnP 03:12:08 ack bryan 03:12:55 bryan: use cases to consider webintents for remote sensor access 03:12:59 q- 03:14:14 claes: note that if controls are shown inline in the original page, then fact that there is service is not so visible to user 03:14:41 Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen 03:15:16 Web Intents could be extended in the short term to support access to existing devices through a gateway, e.g. a remote sensor service ("monitor" verb?) accessed through a gateway device on the home network. Such gateway devices might use SSE or WebSockets to deliver the sensor events, which can be passed to the client app through the Web Intent provider app. 03:16:23 q+ to ask about discover verb 03:17:57 q+ to suggest replacing Discover: media renderer with Show : video /* 03:18:07 claes: in this case client needs to understand details of UPnP control, making it much more complicated, possibly handled by libraries 03:18:17 q+ James 03:18:20 ack fjh 03:18:20 fjh, you wanted to ask about discover verb 03:18:49 ack Josh_Soref 03:18:49 Josh_Soref, you wanted to suggest replacing Discover: media renderer with Show : video /* 03:18:54 ack Josh_Soref 03:19:30 rrsagent, generate minutes 03:19:30 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html fjh 03:19:40 ack james 03:20:43 james: often do not need playback controls on page so view might be enough, 03:21:12 Claes: the third option 03:21:29 ... Has a background service doing communication 03:22:07 q+ fjh to ask purpose for background version, to avoid security issues? 03:22:08 jhawkins has joined #dap 03:22:17 ... Using channel messaging between service and client 03:22:35 Can someone drop a link to the spec that defined "Channel Messaging"? 03:22:50 James: It seems the two client experiences are orthogonal. Some clients may pay the dev cost of directly interacting with upnp device, while other clients merely want to 'play' a 'video' 03:23:11 James: ...and the API should support both options 03:23:13 q+ 03:23:32 shunan has joined #DAP 03:23:45 http://dev.w3.org/html5/postmsg/ -> HTML5 Web Messaging 03:24:53 [ slide shows UA ; service proxying ; TV ] 03:25:26 Claes: Sony proposes WebIntents support UPnP 03:25:30 giuseppe has left #dap 03:25:31 giuseppe has joined #dap 03:25:43 ... With local discovery 03:25:58 q+ 03:25:58 ... UPnP / mDNS 03:26:19 ... UA needs to handle dynamic service availability 03:26:55 ... Should discovery require user initiation ? 03:27:14 ... Questions? 03:27:34 Fjh: I'm confused by the background case 03:27:35 ... 03:27:46 ... You have a worker 03:28:07 Claes: for when the server doesn't have a UI 03:28:09 Same-origin restrictions can be addressed by CORS, right? 03:28:19 ACTION: giuseppe to figure out how to put together a document describing how to do Intents with existing UPnP (himself or by finding someone who does it) 03:28:19 Created ACTION-511 - Figure out how to put together a document describing how to do Intents with existing UPnP (himself or by finding someone who does it) [on Giuseppe Pascale - due 2012-03-27]. 03:28:24 ... Or a website application is a sensor 03:28:43 q? 03:28:45 ack fjh 03:28:45 fjh, you wanted to ask purpose for background version, to avoid security issues? 03:28:48 ack gbillock 03:29:03 Greg: do existing devices support XHR? 03:29:10 Claes: yes 03:29:21 Example of "high-level service specific protocols" that need to be specified (and does this mean new specs or references)? 03:29:27 Greg: for background pages 03:29:42 ... We've talked about that before 03:30:05 ... We've also discussed transient registration 03:30:17 ... For redelivery 03:31:01 ... Where you want the same Intent should go to 03:31:40 ... The current specification has new instances being loaded in new pages 03:32:09 ... Our Chrome UI team is very concerned about a lack of a control surface 03:32:19 ... To display Error cases 03:32:52 ... Having controls by the device itse 03:33:07 Background Intent providers may need a heartbeat mechanism to ensure status is clear, i.e. if the intent "connection" drops the client app knows. 03:33:14 ... Is the problem I have with printers 03:33:19 s/itse/itself/ 03:33:27 Or is that covered with error callbacks? 03:33:30 redial..................the chinese number (+8675528560880) should work 03:33:38 ... It's hard with a printer to do things 03:33:38 q+ 03:33:53 ... But you can do it with a computer 03:33:53 I agree with what said now, you need both 03:34:13 * cool 03:34:37 s/* cool// 03:34:48 ... The specification doesn't prevent these things 03:34:52 s/* cool// 03:35:02 Re search initiation by the user or app, the permission of an app to automatically invoke search should at least be initially approved by the user, but can be persistent. 03:35:05 q? 03:35:06 q? 03:35:16 ack jhawkins 03:35:16 ack jhawkins 03:35:56 james: originally saw no need for background disposition, however added action for self to create UX disposition so we can think about this 03:36:49 there is definitely a need for allowing a service with no UI 03:37:07 james: need to make inline clear in spec for picker (action for james?0 03:37:12 s/0/)/ 03:37:22 q? 03:37:37 ack Daniel-Samsung 03:38:41 james: concerned about securiyt 03:38:51 s/securiyt/security/ 03:38:59 q+ Josh_Soref 03:39:00 fjh: we need to review implications 03:39:21 q+ 03:40:36 ack Josh_Soref 03:41:18 Josh_Soref: UPnP is flawed, assumes everyone is well behaved and trusted, yet web is not well behaved and trusted 03:41:25 Security is addressed by the users which own/manage the devices that could offer Web Intents accessed services. 03:42:07 ... need to have user interaction to have tv to switch input port, thus we need this approach in general, including UPnP 03:42:12 And more specifically the abilities of those devices to control who/what/when services can be accessed. 03:42:20 ack bryan 03:42:59 bryan: lots of devices in the home, assume they are safe 03:43:17 ... but not true if others come into house, etc. e.g. kids friends could access devices 03:43:21 ... thus security a concern 03:43:26 Bryan: kids' friends come over and content propagates 03:43:30 q+ to note that further work on new discovery mechanisms could address privacy by limiting who can see which services are available as part of a broader framework for access control on publicly accessible local networks 03:43:56 ack dsr 03:43:56 dsr, you wanted to note that further work on new discovery mechanisms could address privacy by limiting who can see which services are available as part of a broader framework for 03:43:59 ... access control on publicly accessible local networks 03:44:26 ... If I'm accessing content from a device, I assume the device owner has control over the content they're providing 03:44:28 so you could currently fingerprint a network 03:44:29 q? 03:44:35 q- 03:44:44 Dsr: that's outside of scope 03:45:19 Claes: thank you. We're also doing prototyping 03:45:30 dsr: to note that further work on new discovery mechanisms could address privacy by limiting who can see which services are available as part of a broader framework for access control on publicly accessible local networks 03:45:51 Notes that discovery on home network requires me to give people access to that home network to start with 03:46:13 Topic: WebIntents issues discussion 03:46:23 James: perhaps brain storming 03:46:36 ... We have a W3C bugzilla product 03:46:49 ... We have 45 minutes before lunch 03:47:17 ... It would be great to have a set of deliverables after these two days 03:47:31 ... This is just collecting questions 03:47:36 ... No answers 03:47:57 Darobin: in the minutes 03:48:14 James: what does an identity indic 03:48:15 s/discussion/brainstorm/ 03:48:33 s/indic/indicate/ 03:48:37 How are Web Intent verb space managed 03:49:03 ... Underlying implementation is OAUTH / BrowserID 03:49:25 Fjh: how does intents work with proxy browsing 03:49:26 RB: could this be modelled after the BrowserID interaction model? 03:49:43 -> IDENTIFY 03:50:20 James: we have a way to. Specify the type, how do we specify ye format (blob, file, url)? 03:50:29 We should consider the questions noted in the linked pages on the Web Intents wiki addressed, e.g. at http://glennjones.net/2011/10/choosing-the-right-words-web-intents/ 03:50:38 if I can add a verb point made by bryan, to be able to do a "mapping" spec on UpnP and other protocols we need a clear definition of each verb. I'm still not sure where the verbs will be defined 03:50:39 RB: could that simply depend on the pre-agreed protocol? 03:50:41 Darobin: can that be specified by the verb? 03:50:49 s/proxy browsing/ proxy browsing, e.g if portion of client processing is performed server side , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opera_(web_browser) / 03:52:02 Are there any versioning issues for intents? 03:52:14 Deepanshu: with several intents registering on a single page, how can we make them register without disturbing the user 03:52:29 James: how do we test webintents 03:52:54 Darobin: in Class's proposal, we saw media types 03:53:05 fjh: how do we obtain access to local device services, presumably via DAP standard APIs, get adoption given both browser and device implementations 03:53:19 Bryan: will there be versioning issues? 03:53:32 q+ 03:53:38 James: is webintents dcom for the way? 03:54:02 Bryan: if an intent provider changes, do I need to inform someone? 03:54:26 James: what's the sweet spot, for schema.org 03:54:43 ... Is it a potential solution for the data format problem 03:55:14 ack claes 03:55:18 Fjh: what happens when there are zillions of providers in the picker? 03:55:21 Does the user need to be informed when an Intent Provider webapp has changed, potentially in ways that could impact the user experience - e.g. use a last-modified value to show that the current provider webapp is different from the one approved by the user? 03:55:35 gbillock has joined #dap 03:55:45 s/picker/picker, is this a usability concern 03:55:50 Claes: can the user select a default service? Or is that a UI detail 03:56:36 Jon_king: is there a way to do pipelining? 03:56:58 James: is that for a single domain? 03:56:59 Jungkee Josh ! 03:57:08 pipelining - sounds like xproc fro the web 03:57:14 s/fro/for/ 03:57:24 Won_Suk: if an application is on the device 03:57:40 ... Can a client access that. Native application 03:57:53 Should there be any ability of the user to restrict Web Intents to only "well-known" intent verbs (types)? 03:58:26 s/Jon_king/Jungkee/ 03:58:39 James: should the WebIntents specification document how to handle native applications 03:58:52 this was what I was asking as well, assuming DAP? 03:58:56 should we consider hierarchical intents (as a way to manage large numbers of intents) ? "subintents" available within the activity of a "top intent" ? 03:58:58 Darobin: how does it work with Private Browsing 03:59:23 Dsr: Re an earlier conversation 03:59:55 ... What is the relationship between the requesting page and the providing page 04:00:20 James: same concerns for explicit intents 04:00:54 Dsr: should a User Agent warn that an Intent is private / rare 04:01:20 in this case intent is not standard so this is private agreement between client and service, how does user know 04:01:26 Samarth: how does the UI integrate 04:01:38 do we show the user in the picker that this is a non-standard intent, i.e. likely to me direct relationship between the site requesting the intent and the site providing that intent 04:01:51 Greg: will clients want a UA provided UI for intents 04:02:06 ... As in the case of a file upload widget 04:02:07 s/to me/to be/ 04:02:35 Host: when I first read WebIntents 04:02:52 ... It's a way for the... 04:04:00 ... User Agent to understand the user's behaviors and do things in the future. If not, could it be done in the future 04:04:11 Still looking for info on what an "explicit intent" is. Does anyone have a link? 04:04:22 Won_Suk: with WebRTC 04:04:33 ... A Web application 04:04:51 ... Could it be registered to handle video / audio 04:04:56 my understanding Bryan, is that explicit intent is where the intent is for a specific service instance. 04:05:14 James: what's the integration point for other working groups 04:05:22 http://www.vogella.de/articles/AndroidIntent/article.html#intents_explicit 04:05:31 Darobin: do we need a REST document 04:05:58 thanks 04:06:11 Deepanshu: can we come up with a document for intents and ensure interoperability 04:06:29 James: what would a payment intent look like? 04:06:35 The vogella.de is about Android intents. Is the meaning the same for Web Intents? 04:06:39 q? 04:06:41 s/do we need a REST document/do we need a REST equivalent to document the architectural style of Intents/ 04:07:13 Josh_Soref: what would an NFC intent look like? 04:07:19 Deepanshu: can we come up with a list of intents (verb) and ensure interoperability? 04:07:42 Oliver: is there a case for relaxing the same origin restriction 04:08:01 Fjh: explicit intents?? 04:08:41 James: Explicit intents is when a page says "I want to use this specific service " 04:09:02 As for performance be concerned, how to improve the web intent's performance? 04:09:03 Fjh: are there any in-raised security concerns 04:09:21 Greg: are there any spam/phishing risks 04:09:34 s/in-raised security concerns/security concerns that we have not identified with web intents/ 04:09:46 Dsr: intents is about using services you've found 04:10:12 ... What is the relationship between services and searching for an intent 04:10:29 ... Or intent based searches 04:10:43 giuseppe has left #dap 04:10:58 Darobin: every email client I've ever tried is horrible 04:11:21 ... I'd like to source different pieces from different providers 04:11:25 (similar to the earlier question about users restricting Web Intent use to only standardized intent verbs) outside of a customized / managed browser, how can an enterprise restrict the set of intents that are available to an employee, for security reasons? 04:11:29 darobin: can composing applications using web intents to provide seamless ui, e.g. email 04:12:02 James: do we have use cases for providing persistent acceptance for services 04:12:32 ... Say that a Site is linked to another by default 04:13:20 what about sharing an intent "session" between two or more devices ? 04:14:01 How would the RPH and RCH functions be replaced by Web Intents, i.e. is Web Intents a true superset (or intended to be)? 04:14:06 Josh_Soref: do we have a way for a user to save pipelines 04:14:26 Fjh: what can we learn from previous groups? 04:14:34 s/groups/work, like ws* etc 04:15:34 Bryan: outside a customized / managed browser, could IT restrict verbs and/or providers 04:16:28 Darobin: android applications often do stupid things like asking for permission to do direct access instead of using the Android pick api 04:17:15 James: what are the holes that android intents hit, and can we avoid them 04:18:03 Greg: is it too easy to get a "user initiated action" in browsers 04:18:32 Fjh: for privacy, is it too easy to "give consent" 04:18:59 Fjh: do intents need to support auditing /forensics 04:19:04 need to be clear that active consent is informed and suitable for privacy 04:19:29 James: how much UX is required to enable a Page to register an intent 04:19:39 ... Currently we use. And information bar 04:19:47 ... Is that too much/little 04:19:54 q+ 04:20:14 ack Claes 04:20:17 Fjh: given flexibility of actions/implementation, can we change as we go forward 04:20:49 s/forward/and learn/ 04:21:14 Claes: assuming you have a page that wants to use several instances of an action + type 04:21:33 ... And you want to take the same action for each 04:21:47 ... How do you address that 04:22:10 example being a number of sensors 04:23:10 Hiro: how to specify a filter 04:23:51 ... So a provider can refuse service for some requesting page 04:24:35 Fjh: what are web intents not good for and when shouldn't they be used 04:25:05 Darobin: what can we hide from providers 04:25:20 Oliver: should we require ssl 04:25:26 s/providers/providers, to avoid tracking/ 04:25:33 ... How do we avoid MITM attacks 04:26:04 James: how much UI/UX requirements should be MUST 04:26:35 James: for inline disposition, how much about the service should be mandated 04:26:59 fjh: what if we do not have a browser but use web intents, e.g. no chrome but use of webIntents 04:27:13 James: what are more use cases for the background disposition 04:27:49 Deepanshu: how do we educate users about intent registration so they can make a decision 04:28:15 s/a decision/an informed decision about accepting it/ 04:28:25 James: how closely is the Web permissions model 04:28:30 sicking has joined #dap 04:28:37 ... Can we use its model for Intents registration 04:29:21 Darobin: what would be an interesting use of Intents for the automotive industry 04:29:38 Bryan: how does Intents work with html speech 04:29:51 Fjh: what changes do we need to make to html5 04:30:00 Deepanshu: Given the current Intent registration proposal (info being registerd) how do we educate users about intent registration enough so they can make a decision? 04:30:05 ... Or can they be done elsewhere 04:30:18 [ Lunch ] 04:32:07 james: next steps? 04:32:30 fjh: suggest we group the questions, then once have groupings look at interest of various groups 04:32:55 What are the accessibility aspects to be considered in Web Intents? 04:36:19 AnssiK1 has joined #dap 05:42:46 nwidell has joined #dap 05:45:14 gbillock has joined #dap 05:45:40 rrsagent, draft minutes 05:45:40 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html OliverD 05:47:32 wonsuk has joined #dap 05:47:37 ping 05:48:18 s|/s/api/api/|| 05:48:28 a12u has joined #dap 05:48:40 gao has joined #dap 05:48:41 Topic: Web Intents Demo 05:49:30 aizu has joined #dap 05:50:47 slides from dsr -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/images/3/3b/Dsr-webintents-shenzhen.pdf 05:51:06 mindong has joined #dap 05:51:44 shunan has joined #DAP 05:52:06 xingxin has joined #DAP 05:53:14 Bo_Chen has joined #dap 05:56:46 Eric has joined #dap 05:59:35 dsr: access to system level APIs might be useful from Chrome extensions to make more usable for developer for WebIntents 05:59:53
  • li has joined #DAP 06:00:07 Qiuling has joined #DAP 06:00:57 DSR: maybe there is room for W3C to consider some form of service description language 06:01:02 dsr: may need W3C work on service description at higher level than UPnP to enable other discovery mechanisms such as zeroconf 06:02:12 qiang has joined #dap 06:02:28 Scribe: Josh_Soref 06:02:32 fjh: will the sources be available 06:02:34 dsr: yes 06:02:46 s/yes/yes, will put on wiki/ 06:03:01 James: stickies? 06:03:02 ray has joined #dap 06:03:17 Deepanshu: not yet 06:04:13 ray has joined #dap 06:04:31 Topic: IPR 06:04:52 Dsr: this is a joint deliverable 06:05:30 ... Since WebApps is in the middle of rechartering 06:05:41 Jack has joined #dap 06:05:57 ... And doesn't currently have WebIntents in its charter 06:06:07 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/webapps-2012/ -> WebApps call for review 06:06:22 ... It would be okay once they recharter 06:06:52 ... Or members not in DAP can give individual commitments 06:08:39 Darobin: the timeline for WebApps rechartering is April (review) and completion in May 06:10:09 s/in May/probably in May/ 06:10:41 http://w3c-test.org/dap/contacts/ -> Contacts API 06:13:44 Topic: WebIntents transferrables etc 06:13:56 Greg: spec already updated 06:14:01 Topic: Web Intents API changes 06:14:28 greg: use case is for example sharing metadata such as filename, create time in addition to file blog, hence array addition 06:14:33 Greg: we have always planned to have web messaging 06:15:09 ... We had hoped web messaging would have made this easier 06:15:48 ... There are plans to make more things transferable / clonable 06:16:47 ... Messaging is acknowledged to be asthetically challenged 06:17:23 jhawkins has joined #dap 06:17:43 ... Ports end up in a different field than where they were sent to the original request 06:18:09 ... There's also an additional extra accessor 06:18:15 q? 06:18:55 Claes: I'd like to see some examples 06:19:17 q+ 06:19:43 Fjh: transferable are defined in the html5 specification 06:19:48 ack: bryan 06:19:51 Greg: yes 06:20:09 q- 06:20:11 Bryan: I didn't see much detail 06:20:35 Greg: yes, he specification is very geared to Browser developers 06:20:37 .. 06:20:50 s/..// 06:21:07 s/he/the/ 06:21:23 ... We need to add stuff for Content developers 06:21:46 Topic: Contacts 06:22:19 Fjh: we stabilized a format for data 06:22:40 ... Until Josh_Soref joined 06:23:09 q+ 06:23:26 Fjh: are we finding a card or an address book? 06:24:12 James: it's both, you could "pick" vCard, or Address Book, or email address 06:24:29 http://www.w3.org/TR/contacts-api/ 06:25:02 Fjh: when we did this originally, we wanted an interaction 06:25:48 ... Maybe we should talk about how this UI (non mandatory) would work with WebIntents 06:25:52 I was going to comment that data minimization was a key consideration, and the browser UI was expected to manage what fields would be provided to the app, based upon user selection (or at least that's how I thought it was working). 06:25:55 q- 06:27:42 q+ 06:27:46 [ fjh describes chooser ] 06:28:09 q+ 06:28:10 the data minimization is I think the responsibility of the Web Intent provider, not the browser in Web Intents 06:28:57 James: maybe for picking contact you can get more than one 06:29:36 the browser provides access to the Web Intent provider (allows selection among the providers), but is it intended for the browser to manage field-level access, or is that the responsibility of the Web Intent provider (the latter, I thought) 06:30:01 q? 06:30:10 ack Josh_Soref 06:30:26 The application could request specific fields for each contact, e.g. first name, salutations and email addresses. James notes this could be indicated in the intent extras field. 06:31:04 ... i.e. Josh said what I did 06:31:57 gbillock has joined #dap 06:32:13 q+ 06:32:31 Josh_Soref: (I said what Bryan wrote) 06:33:34 q+ 06:33:41 ack bryan_sullivan 06:34:22 ack gbillock 06:34:36 jhawkins has joined #dap 06:34:42 Ruinan_ has joined #dap 06:35:15 James: Do we need his API now that we have WebIntents? 06:35:49 Josh_Soref: not as an API, just a definition as an intent action 06:36:22 Fjh: and something needs to define the data format 06:36:23 WU has joined #DAP 06:36:54 ... And is there something for privacy to be taken from the contacts API 06:37:23 Darobin: since someone is writing a document for TAG 06:37:33 ... Maybe it can go there 06:37:37 ACTION: Robin to propose linking to "Privacy by Design in APIs" from Web Intents draft when it's ready 06:37:37 Created ACTION-512 - Propose linking to "Privacy by Design in APIs" from Web Intents draft when it's ready [on Robin Berjon - due 2012-03-27]. 06:37:39 q+ 06:38:07 James: adding a contact is the save action 06:39:03 Josh_Soref: or just returning a card as a file and having the content handler map to an Intent handler 06:39:22 James: the reason we had actions as urls 06:39:41 ... Is to have documentation on apis at those urls 06:40:10 ... WebIntents.Org/{action} 06:40:31 ... But maybe it doesn't scale 06:41:41 Fjh: I'm concerned about IPR protection 06:41:50 q+ to ask if the "type" field of the intent is limited to MIME types, e.g. to the scalability issue raised by Robin 06:42:12 Darobin: when we need to create a verb, 06:42:27 e.g. could we use "pick" for generic web search? 06:43:28 jhawkins has joined #dap 06:43:38 action: richt to consider updating Contacts specification to add WebIntents section 06:43:39 Created ACTION-513 - Consider updating Contacts specification to add WebIntents section [on Richard Tibbett - due 2012-03-27]. 06:43:41 ... We need to get director approval and have a document 06:44:26 q? 06:44:28 Greg: defining query language should be as a hint 06:44:30 q- 06:44:31 ack fjh 06:44:35 ack bryan 06:44:35 bryan_sullivan, you wanted to ask if the "type" field of the intent is limited to MIME types, e.g. to the scalability issue raised by Robin 06:44:43 q? 06:45:35 Josh_Soref: we already reached that conclusion in the contacts specification 06:45:52 Bryan: maybe already answered 06:46:15 ... What can I pick? 06:46:41 James: schema.Org has noun definitions 06:46:52 s/can I pick?/can I pick, e.g. organization/ 06:47:05 Darobin: does it have an image type? 06:47:28 James: yes 06:47:48 http://schema.org/ 06:47:52 James: there's action * data * format 06:48:34 ... Maybe saying that type can be a mime type or a schema.Org type 06:49:05 Darobin: we're circling around... 06:49:19 ... The dark path is content negotiation 06:49:42 James: hypothetically, we mandate schema.org 06:49:52 ... Drop mime type 06:50:10 ... Schema.org specifies the data 06:50:15 address information -> http://schema.org/PostalAddress 06:50:33 would the schema.org nouns e.g. allow me to define an Intent based service through which I can pick a news service? 06:50:37 Greg: not all binary types have formats in schema.org 06:50:48 "text/uri-list;type=image/jpeg" 06:51:10 ... When you ask for text/uri-list 06:51:23 or pick a plumber? 06:51:39 ... How do you know what the contained type is? 06:51:57 did schema.org reinvent OIDs? 06:52:02 Darobin: you end up with a type in your type. 06:52:41 Greg: the advantage is types are defined 06:52:49 At a known place 06:53:44 Darobin: pictures, and people 06:53:58 ... Encoding 06:54:32 James: sounds like we'll use schema.org 06:55:04 q+ 06:55:04 ... Things get complicated when you expand the namespace 06:55:33 Darobin: There's an IG for schemas 06:55:40 ACTION: Robin to talk to the Web Schema group about using schema.org nouns for Intents 06:55:40 Created ACTION-514 - Talk to the Web Schema group about using schema.org nouns for Intents [on Robin Berjon - due 2012-03-27]. 06:55:42 ack bryan 06:56:19 Bryan: I should be able to pick for news 06:56:32 http://schema.org/NewsArticle 06:57:04 Greg: some things are solved by specialized providers 06:57:36 shall we have a wiki to document these types of decisions/changes - mime type to type + encoding? 06:58:18 Greg: mime types don't evolve fast enough (?_ 06:58:46 s/_/)/ 06:59:17 James: did android not suffer from this as they used mime types 06:59:29 q+ to ask about interop with open interface to schema.org 06:59:46 shunan_ has joined #DAP 06:59:58 Is there any issue with referencing schema.org, questions about governance etc 07:00:22 Greg: android types are very explicit using url ingredients 07:00:47 Fjh: eventually we create a specification 07:01:05 ... And do interoperability testing 07:01:11 q+ 07:01:22 Ack fjh 07:01:22 fjh, you wanted to ask about interop with open interface to schema.org 07:01:34 how do we complete interop testing on webintents, especially with large scope of schema.org 07:02:19 aren't the issues for testing similar to Web Messaging, Workers, etc? The approaches being taken to test the requester/provider in those cases should also be usable as the model for Web Intents. 07:02:35 josh: webIDL is example of testing, limited to testing 2 choices against 2 implementations, e.g. 2 different actions etc 07:02:52 other than that, the UI specific requirements would require specific tests 07:03:56 josh: many browsers have automation support, can thus automate much of this 07:04:08 darobin: not sure about iframes and testing 07:04:17 ... for registration testing might be an issue 07:05:12 designpush page http://designpush.pbworks.com/w/page/48061310/FrontPage 07:05:32 Topic: WebIntents Design Push 07:05:57 James: we met in Brighton 07:06:22 ... Twitter's developer Site is inviting 07:06:34 ... WebIntents.Org is a mess 07:06:54 ... There was a lot of discussion on Picker UI 07:07:21 q? 07:07:44 ... A lot of it was me explaining the lessons we learned from implementing it in Chrome 07:07:50 q- 07:08:46 Darobin: the Intent constructor argument length has grown too much 07:09:06 ... I'm looking into talking with the Schema people 07:09:33 action: james to write webintents demo using schema.org objects, with split type and encoding 07:09:34 Created ACTION-515 - Write webintents demo using schema.org objects, with split type and encoding [on James Salsman - due 2012-03-27]. 07:09:39 James: Greg and I will look into splitting the type and encoding 07:09:55 close ACTION-515 07:09:55 ACTION-515 Write webintents demo using schema.org objects, with split type and encoding closed 07:10:20 james to write webintents demo using schema.org objects, with split type and encoding 07:11:32 giuseppe has joined #dap 07:13:22 James: darobin, what would it take to move to the object literal format? 07:13:36 Darobin: not much 07:14:05 Eric has joined #dap 07:14:12 ... When you have 6, mostly optional arguments 07:14:20 James: ok 07:15:10 Qiuling has joined #DAP 07:16:07 Topic: Work Modes 07:16:29 Soonho has joined #dap 07:16:45 Josh_Soref: there are two main modes in W3C 07:17:33 ... In one, groups discuss potential changes, reach a conclusion and the editor records it 07:18:45 http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebIntents/ContactsAPI -> Contacts API example using Intents 07:18:53 Laszlo nod that it is a break 07:19:16 aizu has left #dap 07:19:31 ... In the other, the editor makes a change and then people review the changes 07:19:49 [ break for 30 minutes ] 07:20:08 fjh, ok 07:20:19 rrsagent, draft minutes 07:20:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html OliverD 07:32:18 jhawkins has joined #dap 07:46:25 xudake_ has joined #dap 07:48:13 dangpei has joined #dap 07:48:36 xudake_ has left #dap 07:49:41 a12u has joined #dap 07:51:54 s/fjh, ok// 07:52:10 s/Laszlo nod that it is a break// 07:53:02 aizu has joined #dap 07:53:54 ray has joined #dap 07:54:43 wonsuk has joined #dap 07:56:34 s/19 March/20 March/ 07:56:38 rrsagent, draft minutes 07:56:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html OliverD 07:57:18 gao has joined #dap 07:57:51 s|s/01:06 < darobin>|| 07:59:09 s/Its huawei internal conference/It's a huawei internal conference/ 07:59:53 s/EG/e.g./ 08:06:01 s/(?_/(?)/ 08:06:08 rrsagent, draft minutes 08:06:08 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html OliverD 08:08:12 Eric has joined #dap 08:11:02 s/from 13 March/from 14 March/ 08:11:22 fixed RESOLUTION to reflect correct date of approved minutes 08:21:57 rrsagent, generate minutes 08:21:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html fjh 08:25:56 s/Minutes from 13 March 2012 are approved/Minutes from 14 March 2012 are approved/ 08:26:44 Date: 20 March 2012 08:26:49 rrsagent, generate minutes 08:26:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html fjh 08:33:09 Topic: WebIntents Brainstorm Triage 08:34:28 s/Host:/Quiling_Pan:/g 08:35:27 Darobin: Should WebIntents be concerned with identifying behavior patterns? 08:35:40 ... For DAP group 08:36:05 ... - out of scope for WebIntents. DAP can look 08:36:28 ... Is WebIntents = DCOM for the Web? 08:36:41 [ Laughter ] 08:37:27 Darobin: How to improve WebIntents performance? 08:37:57 Qiuling has joined #DAP 08:38:00 ... - issue event on Intent load 08:40:06 ... Do we need a REST style document for the interaction architecture 08:40:52 I created wiki to record DAP issues related to WebIntents -> http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/wiki/WebIntent_Issues 08:40:57 James: Intents specifies not to do anything until the object is fully ready 08:41:19 ... - window.event 08:41:49 action for James to send item to list related to blocking and intent on window 08:41:49 Sorry, couldn't find user - for 08:41:58 ... But, we can move to adding an event to indicate when an event is ready 08:43:06 James: how do we handle too many providers? 08:43:19 james has action to send item to mail list related to blocking and webintents intent window item 08:43:27 rrsagent, generate minutes 08:43:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html fjh 08:43:32 ... The browser will handle it with heuristics / history 08:43:58 ... Can the user select a default service? 08:44:17 ... - a user agent could support this 08:44:33 ... How do we specify type vs. Format? 08:44:37 s/James has/AI James has/ 08:44:54 ... - I have an action item on that 08:45:38 ... Explicit intents 08:45:51 ... - I'll send a proposal 08:45:55 AI James to send proposal to split to type and encoding, related to schema.org 08:46:05 s/james has/AI james has/ 08:46:29 ... Should the UA warn if an Intent is rare? 08:47:10 Darobin: Is that a QoI / phishing issue? 08:49:09 Josh_Soref: it's QoI, but not having informative text means that non major browsers will miss important securiI issues. 08:51:35 Darobin: tag 08:52:04 Greg: advantage, explicit 08:52:21 ... Doesn't work in head 08:52:28 q+ to ask about meta ambiguity 08:52:59 . 08:53:10 q- 08:53:22 s/.// 08:53:51 ... Explicit also provides for fallback / alternative content 08:54:16 it can become a pattern to learn, hence meta tag ambiguity might not be a problem 08:54:59 James: we need a way to crawl / index 08:57:03 james asks what about imperative registration 08:57:36 ... Imperative handles unregistering 08:57:47 s/imperative/declarative 08:57:57 08:58:07 or rather 08:58:12 08:59:49 james: benefits to body, include no parsing changing needed, easier to do many things like fallback etc 08:59:50 q+ to ask if we could use the tag and define a new relation type via RFC 09:00:04 josh: head has no real benefits, space limitations on head etc 09:00:07 ack bryan 09:00:07 bryan_sullivan, you wanted to ask if we could use the tag and define a new relation type via RFC 09:03:20 Not sure how strong the argument is about the length of the head, given that people can insert scripts and style sheet rules in the head, although that isn't great practice. 09:04:09 Bryan: link doesn't seem so out of place 09:04:18 q- 09:04:54 James: the only extended link is the icon tag 09:05:19 ... And we're talking about many more attributes 09:05:38 ... Hixie seems less opposed 09:06:22 ... IE and Safari are supportive 09:06:48 james: waiting for 2 things - rph,rch proposal (done), privacy concern, planning to submit 09:07:02 ... Mozilla has one engineer working on it and some people opposed 09:07:35 Darobin: richt should have landed 09:07:36 FPWD will accelerate work on implementation. 09:09:28 James: lifecycle, EG, intent disappears 09:09:43 ... - I don't know 09:10:03 ... When you pick something, we do a spinner 09:10:26 ... If the page 404s, we do one thing 09:10:40 dcoloma has joined #dap 09:11:01 ... If it 200s without the tag, then it's a different c 09:11:18 s/c/case/ 09:12:51 Greg: [ talks about onload ] 09:14:59 conclusion of discussion is that current webintents draft is clear of lifecycle and needed actions 09:15:06 no need to switch to events 09:16:19 Josh_Soref: Captive portals could clear the intent registration 09:16:56 s/no need to switch to event/james will send proposal regarding use of events which should be equivalent 09:18:04 James: Could we catch the 200 an not update the intent registration? 09:18:47 Josh_Soref: for 200 thas a failure we could show the user a new service 09:19:14 ... the UA will keep track of failures and suggest the service is no longer available 09:19:47 James: Can a web intent be delivered to a native app? 09:20:00 ... Yes but this is future work 09:20:47 darobin: there are two parts to this, having access to native apps 09:21:07 ... and the browser providing access to local services like the addressbook 09:21:18 James: Lets add it to use cases 09:21:37 Josh_Soref: Modern browsers add an origin tag to files that are downloaded 09:21:54 ... Intents could tag things with a browser origin 09:22:16 ... when the app does the editing it does not see where it comes from but does see it is downloaded 09:22:54 James: is there a way to do pipelining 09:23:18 not sure how this is obvious 09:23:18 Josh_Soref: it is an easy yes, but I want an easy fast way to do it 09:23:56 ... I want to be able to save all the steps and not have user interaction for each stage 09:24:27 James: There are concerns about always wanting to give permission 09:25:00 qiang has joined #dap 09:25:03 Josh_Soref: the browser should prompt the user to save intent chains with a name 09:25:11 ... that the user can then select later 09:25:47 is this a use case topic? 09:26:37 richt has joined #dap 09:26:57 James: are you saying that we see intent use in the middle of a chain and save it so that it does not neeed to be repeated? 09:27:40 gbillock: This sounds like something that could be handled through browser extensions 09:28:33 [this is a collapsed pipeline] 09:30:11 Josh_Soref: [ Gives an example of a sequence of intents being used in sequence and the browser collapsing them into one operation ] 09:30:42 James: Intents require user interaction to initiate 09:31:01 ... Move this to use cases 09:31:19 ... Next question: how can intents handle streaming types 09:32:06 RB: IIRC the proposal for Stream objects included them being cloneable, if so then we just return those for streaming types and we're done 09:32:12 James: done 09:32:25 Greg: they'll either be cloneable or transferable, or both 09:32:26 James: if an intent service changes do I need to tell someone? 09:32:36 Eric has joined #dap 09:33:06 ... if it answers to the same api but has different behaviour 09:33:17 Josh_Soref: market correction will handle this 09:34:23 q+ 09:34:46 ... Will there be an active ignore for intent registration 09:34:53 James: This is in Chrome 09:35:07 ack bryan 09:35:09 Josh_Soref: Should this be in the spec? 09:35:24 gbillock: Maybe as a should 09:36:25 bryan_sullivan: we need to consider how the user is informed of changes by intent providers 09:36:34 ... I do not think market correction is enough 09:37:32 ... a web intent ad service provider may be chosen by a user because they protect privacy 09:37:45 ... if they stop doing this the user should be informed 09:38:02 James: So what things do we need to tell the user about? 09:38:23 fjh: Does this need to be in the spec? 09:38:43 bryan_sullivan: we are opening a new pathway to user data 09:38:50 the use case for "I don't like this provider anymore" is similar to DNT and Tracking Selection Lists, i.e. the user can control what they want to use. But the intent of the question was to ensure notice to the user. 09:38:53 fjh: I agree we need to keep this in mind 09:39:32 James: Use of ssl e.g. for inline disposition 09:39:47 darobin: do we agree we need ssl for this? 09:40:02 Josh_Soref: we could decide that if we have inline it must have ssl 09:40:18 ... but we do not need to decide if we need inline at this stage 09:40:35 James: what are the concerns with using non ssl in inline? 09:41:01 gbillock: How much notification does the user need about the ssl status? 09:41:16 ... if we are not going to display this, we may want to mandate ssl 09:41:25 James: UX should not madate this 09:41:41 Can bryan_sullivan's question be addressed by having a mechanism to re-register an intent, where the intent parameters have not been changed? 09:43:17 s/madate/mandate/ 09:44:11 gbillock: I think making a reccomendation for this is sensible as it gets presented as if it is browser chrome 09:44:45 Josh_Soref: If the incentives are not right this will not be implemented correctly 09:44:53 ... Most sites still don't use ssl 09:45:06 ... we can improve the web by encouraging the right thing 09:45:31 ... this might be a time where we can force people to do the right thing by mandating it 09:45:43 James: This ups the cost significatnly 09:45:55 Josh_Soref: This is only for inline 09:46:09 ... the other form is still simpler 09:46:22 James: At what benfit for the user 09:46:35 ... ? 09:47:00 Josh_Soref: the user has a tendancy to think that whatever is in that context is safe 09:47:20 James: I think further discussion may be needed 09:47:21 s/tendancy/tendency/ 09:47:35 s/benfit/benefit/ 09:47:50 Josh_Soref: I travel a lot and things that were safe can be unsafe on untrused networks 09:48:06 ACTION: Josh to propose Security Considerations section on SSL for Intents sepc 09:48:07 Created ACTION-516 - Propose Security Considerations section on SSL for Intents sepc [on Josh Soref - due 2012-03-27]. 09:49:03 Cathy: Bryan was asking whether there is a way to notify the user 09:49:14 ... when the behaviour of the intent has changed 09:49:27 ... I wonder if there is a need for a reregistration mechanism 09:49:40 ... a way for the service page to anounce that something has changed 09:49:50 ... currently this is not handled 09:50:21 Josh_Soref: Automated phone systems ofen tell you they have changed their options 09:50:35 ... this is not that helpful, it's usualy just annoying 09:51:02 ... if a site really wants to change it's behaviour it can do so at a new url 09:51:17 s/it's/its/ 09:51:37 Josh_Soref: we can stick this into best practice 09:52:29 proposal to create best practice for web intent, e.g to change service details, cause error on page, use new url 09:52:31 q- my, poor 09:54:11 take the main shopping street (with the red keys) then second right then third left 09:54:20 Topic: Dinner plans 09:54:29 [ Deepanshu explains where we're going tonight ] 09:54:38 [ We depart at 6:15pm from this room ] 09:54:40 in Room III on 2nd floor at 1815 09:54:41 Topic: Recess 09:55:23 ok, good! 09:55:41 richt: try to catch up with us rather than walk it on your own — you could possibly get lost :) 09:56:02 william has joined #dap 09:57:20 jfmoy has joined #dap 09:58:17 kensaku has joined #dap 10:02:47 william has joined #dap 10:08:45 kensaku has joined #dap 10:24:27 jcdufourd has left #dap 10:25:19 dcheng3 has joined #dap 10:42:43 giuseppe has left #dap 10:46:47 lgombos__ has joined #dap 12:02:10 Zakim has left #dap 12:33:09 giuseppe has joined #dap 13:50:50 test has joined #dap 13:53:19 fjh has joined #dap 13:53:42 rrsagent, generate minutes 13:53:42 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html fjh 13:58:01 AnssiK has joined #dap 14:19:14 jfmoy has joined #dap 14:56:15 giuseppe has left #dap 15:06:32 glenn has joined #dap 15:44:04 kensaku has joined #dap 16:15:39 sicking has joined #dap