IRC log of dap on 2012-03-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

01:02:09 [RRSAgent]
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01:02:09 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-irc
01:02:11 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
01:02:11 [Zakim]
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01:02:13 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be DAP
01:02:13 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
01:02:14 [trackbot]
Meeting: Device APIs Working Group Teleconference
01:02:14 [trackbot]
Date: 19 March 2012
01:02:48 [dsr]
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01:03:26 [bryan]
present+ Bryan_Sullivan
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01:04:43 [Josh_Soref]
Scribe: Josh_Soref
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01:05:11 [fjh]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/wiki/F2F_Agenda_20-22_March_2012,_Shenzhen,_China
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01:05:38 [Josh_Soref]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
01:05:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html Josh_Soref
01:05:48 [Qiuling]
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01:05:55 [fjh]
Chair: Robin_Berjon, Frederick_Hirsch
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01:06:13 [darobin]
RRSAgent, this meeting spans timezones
01:06:13 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'this meeting spans timezones', darobin. Try /msg RRSAgent help
01:06:13 [fjh]
Present+ Robin_Berjon, Frederick_Hirsch
01:06:23 [darobin]
RRSAgent, meeting spans timezones
01:06:23 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'meeting spans timezones', darobin. Try /msg RRSAgent help
01:06:25 [Wonsuk]
Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
01:06:27 [darobin]
RRSAgent, meeting spans midnight
01:07:18 [daniel]
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01:07:19 [Cathy]
Present+ Cathy_Chan
01:07:58 [Claes]
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01:08:20 [Youngsun_Ryu]
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01:08:24 [Josh_Soref]
[ fjh describes Agenda ]
01:08:47 [derek]
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01:10:06 [OliverD]
s/01:06 < darobin> RRSAgent, this meeting spans timezones
01:10:10 [zhang]
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01:10:21 [OliverD]
s/RRSAgent, this meeting spans timezones//
01:10:32 [OliverD]
s!s/01:06 < darobin> RRSAgent, this meeting spans timezones!!
01:10:41 [Deepanshu]
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01:11:53 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: we'll look into splitting contacts apiece from data formats
01:12:11 [kensaku]
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01:12:33 [Josh_Soref]
Topic: Introductions
01:13:19 [Josh_Soref]
Bryan: Bryan Sullivan, AT&T
01:13:40 [Josh_Soref]
James: James Hawkins, Google
01:13:55 [dsr]
Present+ dsr
01:14:07 [fjh]
Goals for F2F include the following: 1. progressing webintents, raising and resolving issues
01:14:17 [Josh_Soref]
Josh_Soref: Josh Soref, Scribe, RIM
01:14:34 [Josh_Soref]
Oliver Don, France Telecom
01:14:52 [fjh]
2. determining issues of integration of webintents with other DAP specifications such as Contacts in order to unblock work on those
01:15:03 [Josh_Soref]
Quiling_Pan: Quiling_Pan, Huawei
01:15:18 [Josh_Soref]
... From software
01:15:24 [Josh_Soref]
... Company
01:15:33 [xingxin]
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01:15:48 [Deepanshu]
Present+ Deepanshu_Gautam
01:15:56 [Josh_Soref]
Roi : Roi, from Huawei device
01:16:18 [Josh_Soref]
... Welcome everyone to Shenzhen
01:16:25 [fjh]
3. Work through plans to develop System level APIs
01:16:47 [fjh]
4. Consider other possible new work such as NFC, review use cases etc
01:16:49 [Josh_Soref]
AAZ: From Huawei browser
01:17:04 [Josh_Soref]
Greg: Greg Bullock, Google
01:17:26 [Josh_Soref]
AAB: AAB1, From Samsung
01:17:49 [darobin]
s/Bullock/Billock/
01:17:50 [gbillock]
*Greg Billock
01:18:01 [darobin]
s/*Greg Billock//
01:18:43 [fjh]
5. Resolve issues with current work items in order to progress, e.g. Feature permissions
01:18:55 [fjh]
6. Regular business
01:19:06 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
01:19:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html fjh
01:19:09 [Josh_Soref]
Won_Sung: Samsung
01:19:23 [Jungkee]
Jungkee Song
01:19:25 [Josh_Soref]
... We worked on Battery
01:19:26 [darobin]
s/Won_Sung/WonSuk/
01:19:52 [fjh]
Jungkee Song working on Tizen browser, interested in gallery and NFC
01:19:53 [Josh_Soref]
Jungkee: working on Tizen browser
01:20:12 [shan]
Soonbo: Soonbo Han, From LGE
01:20:18 [fjh]
s/Jungkee Song working on Tizen browser, interested in gallery and NFC//
01:20:26 [Josh_Soref]
Claus: Claus, from Sony Mobile
01:20:28 [Youngsun_Ryu]
s/AAB/Youngsun
01:20:33 [fjh]
s/Tizen browser/Tizen browser and NFC/
01:20:41 [Josh_Soref]
Franz : Webinos
01:20:49 [Claes]
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01:21:05 [Josh_Soref]
Darobin: freelance, Co-chair
01:21:21 [Cathy]
s/Claus/Claes/
01:21:35 [Josh_Soref]
AA3: ...
01:21:37 [Stephan_Steglich]
s/Franz :/Stephan/
01:22:15 [Josh_Soref]
[ introduction. Of China Unicom ]
01:22:24 [Bo_Chen]
Bo_Chen from China Unicom
01:22:34 [derek]
Derek Jiang from China Unicom
01:22:37 [zhang]
chengyan zhang from china unicom
01:23:03 [kensaku]
kensaku komatsu from NTT communications
01:23:10 [xingxin]
xingxin li from china unicom
01:23:25 [aizu]
Hiroyuki Aizu from TOSHIBA
01:23:57 [Stephan_Steglich]
s/Stephan/Stephan, Fraunhofer FOKUS, webinos/
01:24:00 [Josh_Soref]
RITTa: RITT, we focus on mobile Internet standards in China
01:24:28 [Yuan]
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01:24:29 [Josh_Soref]
Fjh: thanks shunan and deepanshu
01:24:45 [Josh_Soref]
Topic: Minutes approval
01:25:01 [fjh]
RESOLUTION: Minutes from 13 March 2012 are approved
01:25:24 [fjh]
Topic: Host Presentation
01:26:04 [Josh_Soref]
Host: Good morning
01:26:18 [Josh_Soref]
... Huawei just joined W3C
01:26:36 [Josh_Soref]
... We just reorganized
01:26:54 [gao]
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01:26:56 [Josh_Soref]
... From focusing on carriers as customers
01:27:03 [Josh_Soref]
... To end users
01:27:26 [Josh_Soref]
[ organizational structure ]
01:27:51 [Josh_Soref]
[ growth chart ]
01:28:08 [Josh_Soref]
[ global presence ]
01:28:22 [Daniel-Samsung]
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01:28:46 [R_Berkoff]
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01:28:47 [Josh_Soref]
[ our customers ]
01:29:14 [Josh_Soref]
[ 300 carriers / 200 countries ]
01:29:36 [R_Berkoff]
no audio bridge?
01:30:13 [Josh_Soref]
Host: before we focused on 3GPP and OMA
01:30:19 [samarth]
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01:30:31 [Josh_Soref]
... Now we're looking to W3C
01:30:54 [Josh_Soref]
[ portfolios ]
01:31:19 [Josh_Soref]
Zakim, who is on the call?
01:31:19 [Zakim]
sorry, Josh_Soref, I don't know what conference this is
01:31:20 [Zakim]
On IRC I see samarth, R_Berkoff, gao, Yuan, Claes, xingxin, kensaku, Deepanshu, zhang, shan, derek, Youngsun_Ryu, Stephan_Steglich, Bo_Chen, Qiuling, nwidell, darobin, gbillock,
01:31:20 [Zakim]
... aizu, Wonsuk, Jungkee, Cathy, OliverD, a12u, dsr, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, bryan, sicking, mounir, AnssiK, glenn, hiroto, slightlyoff, Josh_Soref, lgombos, trackbot, ilkka,
01:31:21 [Daniel-Samsung]
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01:31:21 [Deepanshu]
The bridge is open now
01:31:22 [Zakim]
... rektide, hiroto_away, dom
01:31:32 [R_Berkoff]
thx...audio ok
01:31:35 [shunan]
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01:31:49 [fjh]
zakim, this is dap
01:31:49 [Zakim]
sorry, fjh, I do not see a conference named 'dap' in progress or scheduled at this time
01:32:37 [Josh_Soref]
[ Terminal Company ]
01:32:48 [darobin]
https://www.google.com/search?q=huawei+pegasus&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=k3o&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&prmd=imvns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=FN5nT6rXAo2eiQfulsm2Cg&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CBQQ_AUoAQ&biw=1276&bih=671
01:32:54 [Deepanshu]
Its huawei internal conference bridge: Dial in number: 0086 0755 28560880, Passcode: 010813889
01:33:26 [Josh_Soref]
[ Picture of Pegasus built of mobile phones ]
01:33:45 [Josh_Soref]
[ Internet Service ]
01:34:06 [Josh_Soref]
Host: TianTian browser
01:34:24 [Josh_Soref]
[ Research Standards ]
01:34:36 [Josh_Soref]
[ Why W3C? ]
01:34:55 [Josh_Soref]
Host: WebRTC
01:34:59 [Josh_Soref]
...
01:35:23 [Josh_Soref]
[ Shenzhen F2F ]
01:35:44 [Josh_Soref]
[ SkyB (TianTian ) Demo ]
01:35:58 [Josh_Soref]
[ Group Dinner ]
01:36:27 [Josh_Soref]
[ Visit to Huawei base on Thursday after meeting ]
01:36:41 [Josh_Soref]
Host: thank you
01:36:54 [Josh_Soref]
[ Applause ]
01:37:04 [Ruinan]
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01:37:09 [Josh_Soref]
Deepanshu: Deepanshu
01:37:37 [Josh_Soref]
... I'm going to show you a browser we made for this meeting
01:38:06 [Josh_Soref]
... I will show the browser accessing camera and microphone
01:38:18 [Josh_Soref]
... We open the browser
01:38:45 [Josh_Soref]
[ clicks bookmark to Web application ]
01:39:20 [Josh_Soref]
Deepanshu: let me click take picture
01:39:29 [Josh_Soref]
... No consent prompt
01:39:49 [Josh_Soref]
... Because the click is deemed as consent
01:40:10 [Josh_Soref]
... Click record (for audio )
01:40:30 [Josh_Soref]
... There will be an icon
01:40:53 [bryan_sullivan]
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01:41:08 [Josh_Soref]
... You can select a contact from this phone's address book
01:41:19 [Josh_Soref]
... I will select myself
01:41:35 [Josh_Soref]
... You can get a preview
01:42:04 [Josh_Soref]
... And clicking send invokes the default email client
01:42:14 [Josh_Soref]
... Sending, done
01:42:49 [Josh_Soref]
... I can't prove conformance to DAP
01:43:05 [Josh_Soref]
... We don't have specifications
01:43:18 [Josh_Soref]
Topic: WebIntents
01:43:38 [Josh_Soref]
James: I'm going to talk about WebIntents
01:43:52 [Josh_Soref]
... Late high level bindings
01:44:15 [Josh_Soref]
... We shipped a prototype in Chrome 18 beta
01:44:27 [darobin]
http://webintents.org/ -> Web Intents web site
01:44:33 [Josh_Soref]
... We turned it off for Chrome 18
01:44:46 [Josh_Soref]
... It will be on for Chrome 19
01:44:54 [darobin]
http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/web-intents/raw-file/tip/spec/Overview.html -> Web Intents specification
01:45:00 [Josh_Soref]
... I'll do a short demo
01:45:19 [Josh_Soref]
[ sets up presentation ]
01:45:32 [Josh_Soref]
James: Imagemator
01:45:53 [Josh_Soref]
... This Site is around 30 lines of code
01:46:08 [Josh_Soref]
... I can pick an image
01:46:22 [Josh_Soref]
... For this application,
01:46:56 [Josh_Soref]
... I chose the action "pick", and a type (mime type)
01:47:18 [Josh_Soref]
[ dialog chosen ]
01:47:41 [OliverD]
s/chosen/chooser/
01:48:20 [Josh_Soref]
James: this second application gets pictures from Picasa
01:48:41 [Josh_Soref]
... I've now connected to web applications
01:48:58 [Josh_Soref]
... I'm not sure if you're familiar with memes
01:50:00 [Josh_Soref]
... Maybe you're a start-up not focused on some thing, let the cloud do it for you.
01:50:18 [Daniel-Samsung]
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01:50:19 [Josh_Soref]
... Mememator
01:50:43 [Josh_Soref]
... A service registers to support an action
01:50:44 [Josh_Soref]
..
01:50:56 [bryan_sullivan]
? link to demo
01:50:59 [Josh_Soref]
And the user chooses which to use
01:51:19 [Josh_Soref]
... This solves the Nascar problem
01:51:40 [Josh_Soref]
... Too many icons for things users don't want
01:52:42 [Josh_Soref]
... Studies show that if someone doesn't like an icon, EG Facebook
01:52:55 [Josh_Soref]
... People won't want to share at all
01:53:01 [Ruinan_]
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01:53:18 [Josh_Soref]
Deepanshu: I presume there's a registry
01:53:35 [Josh_Soref]
James: currently, in Chrome
01:53:35 [Wu]
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01:53:51 [bryan_sullivan]
Can someone define the "nascar problem" or provide a link to info about it?
01:54:19 [Josh_Soref]
... There's a proposal for Web applications to use a certain tag to let user agent recognize a service
01:54:38 [Josh_Soref]
... The actual of a user visiting a site
01:55:02 [Josh_Soref]
... Is partial interest / consent for registration
01:55:24 [Daniel]
Daniel has joined #dap
01:55:32 [Josh_Soref]
Deepanshu: do I get four Intent registration requests?
01:55:53 [fjh]
Deepanshu notes may not want all intents on page to be registered by default
01:55:53 [bryan_sullivan]
q+
01:56:06 [Josh_Soref]
James: we're trying to move the action into the picker
01:56:29 [fjh]
James notes that browser maintains registrations
01:56:41 [Josh_Soref]
... And when you remove something, we try to understand that
01:56:41 [fjh]
ack bryan
01:57:00 [Josh_Soref]
Bryan: What is the Nascar problem?
01:57:11 [Cathy]
s/move the action/move the user preference
01:57:12 [liu]
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01:57:20 [Josh_Soref]
Fjh: Nascar didn't Actually have that problem
01:57:32 [Josh_Soref]
... It's all the pictures
01:57:42 [dsr]
Nascar problem is the proliferation of too many ads on cars
01:57:49 [Wu]
Wu has left #DAP
01:57:52 [Josh_Soref]
Bryan: ok, it's all the noise from the pictures
01:57:53 [bryan_sullivan]
q-
01:57:54 [fjh]
s/problem/problem, they sell the ads, but confusing clutter on a web page with too many ads/
01:58:04 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
01:58:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html fjh
01:58:13 [Josh_Soref]
Claes: have you considered
01:58:15 [Josh_Soref]
..
01:58:27 [OliverD]
s/..//
01:58:37 [WU]
WU has joined #DAP
01:58:47 [Josh_Soref]
... Have you considered having a server registry?
01:59:03 [Josh_Soref]
James: not for Chrome
01:59:16 [Jack]
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01:59:20 [fjh]
s/have that problem/have that problem they sell the ads, but confusing clutter on a web page with too many ads/
01:59:31 [Josh_Soref]
Claes: the specification doesn't currently talk about this?
01:59:42 [Josh_Soref]
James: not currently
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01:59:59 [fjh]
s/problem, they sell the ads, but confusing clutter on a web page with too many ads/problem is the proliferation of too many ads on cars/
02:00:05 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
02:00:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html fjh
02:00:27 [fjh]
Josh: intents show sites user has already found
02:00:49 [Josh_Soref]
Deepanshu: is the intent that
02:01:05 [jcdufourd]
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02:01:08 [bryan_sullivan]
q+
02:01:12 [fjh]
Deepanshu: yes, sites that have already been found are registered
02:01:18 [fjh]
ack bryan
02:01:25 [Josh_Soref]
[ scribe falls behind ]
02:01:46 [lizij]
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02:01:48 [Josh_Soref]
James: how do you transfer data?
02:01:49 [Josh_Soref]
..
02:01:57 [OliverD]
s/..//
02:02:04 [darobin]
ack bryan
02:02:16 [Josh_Soref]
... You have to save locally and upload by hand
02:02:18 [Josh_Soref]
..
02:02:25 [OliverD]
s/..//
02:02:35 [Josh_Soref]
... Or make publicly available
02:03:01 [Josh_Soref]
... And tell the first page which services you use
02:03:21 [bryan_sullivan]
I think the process of registration in a broader sense, e.g. through an out-of-band provisioning process etc is out of scope, as the W3C is focused on the user-centric model
02:03:22 [fjh]
s/proliferation of too many ads on cars is the proliferation of too many ads on cars/proliferation of too many ads on cars/
02:03:37 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
02:03:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html fjh
02:03:47 [Josh_Soref]
Greg: the specification will focus on registration and data transmission
02:04:14 [Josh_Soref]
... But Chrome will help users when they don't have a provider
02:04:50 [Josh_Soref]
Fjh: so if you need to pick and don't have something
02:04:51 [Josh_Soref]
..
02:05:04 [OliverD]
s/..//
02:05:07 [dangpei]
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02:05:16 [Josh_Soref]
You'll get a chance to install at the same time
02:05:41 [darobin]
q+ to bring up default/fallback intent handlers
02:06:03 [Josh_Soref]
James: Chrome has an application store
02:06:18 [fjh]
ack darobin
02:06:18 [Zakim]
darobin, you wanted to bring up default/fallback intent handlers
02:06:20 [Josh_Soref]
... This is expanding on schema.org
02:06:25 [OliverD]
s/You/... You/
02:06:56 [Josh_Soref]
Darobin: there was a proposal for fallback
02:07:37 [Josh_Soref]
James: we can't tell sites there's no registered provider
02:08:09 [Josh_Soref]
... But we could let a Site offer a provider
02:08:23 [bryan_sullivan]
q+
02:08:31 [fjh]
q+
02:08:31 [darobin]
acl bryan
02:08:36 [darobin]
ack bryan
02:08:44 [Josh_Soref]
... Which could become the default for that service
02:08:48 [fjh]
s/acl bryan//
02:09:03 [Josh_Soref]
Oliver: most of the intents make sense....
02:09:11 [Josh_Soref]
... Discover doesn't
02:09:24 [Josh_Soref]
James: we intend to remove that
02:09:48 [Josh_Soref]
Bryan: there was an interest for Home networking
02:10:10 [Josh_Soref]
James: there's a conflict between extending and breaking
02:10:25 [Josh_Soref]
... Discovery didn't make sense
02:10:53 [Claes]
q?
02:10:57 [Claes]
q+
02:11:09 [Josh_Soref]
Greg: a design goal of Intents is to leave the namespace very open
02:11:33 [Josh_Soref]
... So when we botch an intent, there's space for people to replace them
02:11:53 [Josh_Soref]
... The intents sweet spot use case
02:12:06 [Josh_Soref]
... Is something light
02:12:12 [bryan_sullivan]
if the discover verb will be removed how will that affect the intent of the use case described in http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebIntents/SonyMobile_-_Local_Network_Service_Discovery ?
02:12:15 [bryan_sullivan]
q+
02:12:19 [Josh_Soref]
... But some things won't work
02:12:56 [Josh_Soref]
James: feel free to ask questions
02:13:19 [Josh_Soref]
... I'd like to talk about some modifications
02:13:37 [ray]
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02:13:48 [Josh_Soref]
... There's a proposal on whatwg to replace register protocol handler
02:13:50 [bryan_sullivan]
Web Intents does seem to overlap with the register handler APIs
02:14:13 [Josh_Soref]
... And register content handler with WebIntents
02:14:17 [Claes]
The discovery intent might be needed for local network service discovery with Web Intents. Let us discuss this afternoon.
02:14:52 [Josh_Soref]
... For Chrome 19, register content handler can be replaced by WebIntents
02:14:56 [fjh]
q?
02:15:17 [jcdufourd]
Present+ JeanClaude_Dufourd
02:15:19 [Josh_Soref]
... For unknown content types, we will show a picker based on Intents
02:15:26 [Josh_Soref]
... Explicit intents
02:16:03 [Josh_Soref]
... An explicit intent is when a client wants to use the intent apiece with a specific handler
02:16:45 [OliverD]
/s/apiece/api/
02:16:49 [darobin]
http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2012-February/034881.html -> drop RPH/RCH
02:16:58 [OliverD]
s/apiece/api/
02:17:10 [Josh_Soref]
Greg: for registration / authentication, the ui is an unspoofable
02:17:13 [Josh_Soref]
..
02:17:22 [OliverD]
s/..//
02:17:56 [dsr]
[explicit intent == named instance of a service rather than a named type of service]
02:18:02 [Josh_Soref]
Greg: the explicit intent is very like defaulting
02:18:16 [darobin]
q?
02:18:21 [Josh_Soref]
... I haven't thought it throughout completely
02:18:36 [Claes]
q-
02:18:42 [Josh_Soref]
Fjh: the proposal is to replace RPC/RPH with WebIntents
02:18:43 [darobin]
ack fjh
02:18:45 [xiaoqiang]
xiaoqiang has joined #dap
02:18:54 [bryan_sullivan]
Link to description of "explicit intents"?
02:19:13 [Josh_Soref]
... There was a "simplification" proposal which is basically the reverse
02:19:29 [Josh_Soref]
James: I appreciate feedback
02:19:39 [giuseppe]
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02:19:41 [fjh]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-intents/2012Feb/0006.html
02:19:50 [Josh_Soref]
... You may have heard of Mozilla's work
02:20:03 [Josh_Soref]
... We heard from Tyler
02:20:12 [fjh]
fjh: I think you said that registerProtocolHandler and registerContentHander could be replaced by WebIntents
02:20:14 [fjh]
James: yes
02:20:22 [Josh_Soref]
... And listed all of the problems with it
02:20:30 [fjh]
fjh: and this seems to be the inverse of the Hammond email re "simplification"
02:20:43 [Josh_Soref]
... I should send them out
02:20:44 [fjh]
q?
02:20:52 [Josh_Soref]
[yes ]
02:21:08 [Josh_Soref]
James: trying to make RPC/RPH work
02:21:16 [Josh_Soref]
... Just doesn't work
02:21:25 [darobin]
q?
02:21:32 [Josh_Soref]
... We will send out that write-up
02:22:11 [fjh]
ack bryan
02:22:17 [Josh_Soref]
Bryan: to Class's presentation
02:22:19 [gbillock]
gbillock has joined #dap
02:22:34 [Josh_Soref]
[ Break ]
02:22:37 [bryan_sullivan]
q-
02:23:04 [OliverD]
s/Tyler/Tyler who suggested Web+ protocols/
02:23:15 [Eric]
Eric has joined #dap
02:23:43 [OliverD]
rrsagent, draft minutes
02:23:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html OliverD
02:23:43 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
02:23:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html fjh
02:24:19 [OliverD]
s!/s/api/api/!!
02:24:21 [OliverD]
rrsagent, draft minutes
02:24:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html OliverD
02:25:01 [bryan_sullivan]
Can someone provide a link to Web Plus info, also as asked earlier a link to info on "explicit intents"?
02:25:33 [a12u]
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02:26:38 [OliverD]
s/s/api/api/
02:26:45 [OliverD]
rrsagent, draft minutes
02:26:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html OliverD
02:29:50 [a12u]
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02:46:50 [Josh_Soref]
[ Reconvening ]
02:47:04 [Josh_Soref]
Topic: Huawei visit
02:47:26 [a12u]
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02:47:27 [Josh_Soref]
Darobin: we'll end at 3pm on Thursday
02:47:29 [Yuan]
Yuan has joined #dap
02:47:31 [Josh_Soref]
... For the tour
02:47:51 [Josh_Soref]
Topic: WebIntents Presentation
02:48:11 [Eric]
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02:50:27 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
02:50:27 [Zakim]
sorry, fjh, I don't know what conference this is
02:50:28 [Zakim]
On IRC I see gbillock, aizu, Eric, Yuan, a12u, nwidell, gao, giuseppe, xiaoqiang, ray, lizij, jcdufourd, zhouhj, Jack, WU, liu, Daniel-Samsung, bryan_sullivan, samarth, R_Berkoff,
02:50:28 [Zakim]
... Claes, kensaku, Deepanshu, zhang, shan, derek, Youngsun_Ryu, Stephan_Steglich, Bo_Chen, Qiuling, darobin, Wonsuk, Jungkee, Cathy, OliverD, dsr, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, bryan,
02:50:30 [Zakim]
... mounir, AnssiK, glenn, hiroto, slightlyoff, Josh_Soref, lgombos, trackbot, ilkka, rektide, hiroto_away, dom
02:51:08 [nwidell]
nwidell (Niklas Widell) on the bridge
02:51:22 [nwidell]
Present+ Niklas_Widell
02:51:35 [nwidell]
yes audio fine
02:51:49 [fjh]
s/yes audio fine//
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ray has joined #dap
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lgombos_ has joined #dap
02:55:09 [ray]
ray has joined #dap
02:56:06 [R_Berkoff]
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02:58:22 [Daniel-Samsung]
rrsagent, generate minutes
02:58:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html Daniel-Samsung
02:59:46 [darobin]
q?
03:01:06 [fjh]
james suggests a possible separate spec on webintents and UPnP registration
03:01:40 [fjh]
ScribeNick: fjh
03:02:23 [fjh]
cathy: UPnP forum might need to be cooperating on this, specifically a new device type for WebIntents
03:02:32 [R_Berkoff]
speak louder plz
03:02:54 [fjh]
... do we have relevant servcices to be defined by type
03:03:17 [giuseppe]
q+
03:03:22 [bryan_sullivan]
Need services to be defined inside UPnP / DLNA? I'm not sure I got the point of that comment.
03:03:31 [fjh]
... so we need to work on details with UPnP forum
03:03:41 [OliverD]
s/servcices/services/
03:03:49 [fjh]
ack giuseppe
03:04:11 [bryan_sullivan]
everyone mute please, too much echo
03:04:20 [giuseppe]
I'll write y question here
03:04:20 [fjh]
james: this work from claes looks very promising
03:04:27 [mindong]
mindong has joined #DAP
03:04:36 [fjh]
s/james suggests/james:/
03:04:51 [giuseppe]
I was wondering if there is actually a need for an extension like descroibed in the presentation
03:05:10 [giuseppe]
would be much easier for browser to map existing services on something like "view" verb
03:05:22 [fjh]
james: we should make UPnP DLNA deliverable to WebIntents task force
03:05:36 [giuseppe]
we want to reuse existing devices
03:05:47 [giuseppe]
any extension to UPnp will not work out of the box
03:06:34 [fjh]
action: claes to create new spec how WebIntents UPnP registration
03:06:34 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-510 - Create new spec how WebIntents UPnP registration [on Claes Nilsson - due 2012-03-27].
03:06:52 [bryan_sullivan]
+1 to the idea of a new spec under the Web Intents TF - we will contribute requirements for that based upon the Web & TV HNTF needs
03:06:57 [Ruinan]
Ruinan has joined #dap
03:06:57 [fjh]
James to update webIntents wiki for this material
03:07:52 [lgombos_]
Present+ Laszlo_Gombos
03:08:20 [giuseppe]
no, e.g. you ca pam "mediaRenderer" service on view
03:08:34 [OliverD]
q+ Josh_Soref
03:08:35 [giuseppe]
s/pam/map/
03:09:07 [dsr]
q+ to note that UPnP service description may be sufficient by itself in some cases, but doesn't cover new things like websockets and server-sent events
03:09:16 [fjh]
darobin: giuseppe is saying if we do this extension to UPnP then there is issue with many existing deployed devices
03:09:22 [darobin]
q?
03:09:35 [bryan_sullivan]
it's possible to new devices to act as a gateway to existing UPnP devices, right? So if we added a SSDP tag etc it could be a new feature supported by new devices.
03:09:38 [bryan_sullivan]
q+
03:09:41 [darobin]
Claes: we should look at both alternatives
03:10:05 [darobin]
... the best solutions is if we can have the UPnP extension, but we should look at enabling existing devices
03:10:27 [darobin]
ack Josh_Soref
03:10:28 [fjh]
ack Josh_Soref
03:11:11 [fjh]
Josh_Soref: two docs, one to map existing UPnP verbs to WebIntents, one for existing UPnP existing
03:11:28 [fjh]
ack dsr
03:11:28 [Zakim]
dsr, you wanted to note that UPnP service description may be sufficient by itself in some cases, but doesn't cover new things like websockets and server-sent events
03:11:41 [fjh]
dsr: note that UPnP service description may be sufficient by itself in some cases, but doesn't cover new things like websockets and server-sent events
03:11:49 [mindong_]
mindong_ has joined #DAP
03:11:53 [darobin]
q?
03:12:08 [fjh]
darobin: will talk to guiseppe about having giuseppe drafting a doc to do webintents with existing UPnP
03:12:08 [darobin]
ack bryan
03:12:55 [fjh]
bryan: use cases to consider webintents for remote sensor access
03:12:59 [bryan_sullivan]
q-
03:14:14 [fjh]
claes: note that if controls are shown inline in the original page, then fact that there is service is not so visible to user
03:14:41 [AnssiK]
Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
03:15:16 [bryan_sullivan]
Web Intents could be extended in the short term to support access to existing devices through a gateway, e.g. a remote sensor service ("monitor" verb?) accessed through a gateway device on the home network. Such gateway devices might use SSE or WebSockets to deliver the sensor events, which can be passed to the client app through the Web Intent provider app.
03:16:23 [fjh]
q+ to ask about discover verb
03:17:57 [Josh_Soref]
q+ to suggest replacing Discover: media renderer with Show : video /*
03:18:07 [fjh]
claes: in this case client needs to understand details of UPnP control, making it much more complicated, possibly handled by libraries
03:18:17 [darobin]
q+ James
03:18:20 [fjh]
ack fjh
03:18:20 [Zakim]
fjh, you wanted to ask about discover verb
03:18:49 [darobin]
ack Josh_Soref
03:18:49 [Zakim]
Josh_Soref, you wanted to suggest replacing Discover: media renderer with Show : video /*
03:18:54 [fjh]
ack Josh_Soref
03:19:30 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
03:19:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html fjh
03:19:40 [darobin]
ack james
03:20:43 [fjh]
james: often do not need playback controls on page so view might be enough,
03:21:12 [Josh_Soref]
Claes: the third option
03:21:29 [Josh_Soref]
... Has a background service doing communication
03:22:07 [fjh]
q+ fjh to ask purpose for background version, to avoid security issues?
03:22:08 [jhawkins]
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03:22:17 [Josh_Soref]
... Using channel messaging between service and client
03:22:35 [bryan_sullivan]
Can someone drop a link to the spec that defined "Channel Messaging"?
03:22:50 [jhawkins]
James: It seems the two client experiences are orthogonal. Some clients may pay the dev cost of directly interacting with upnp device, while other clients merely want to 'play' a 'video'
03:23:11 [jhawkins]
James: ...and the API should support both options
03:23:13 [gbillock]
q+
03:23:32 [shunan]
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03:23:45 [darobin]
http://dev.w3.org/html5/postmsg/ -> HTML5 Web Messaging
03:24:53 [Josh_Soref]
[ slide shows UA ; service proxying ; TV ]
03:25:26 [Josh_Soref]
Claes: Sony proposes WebIntents support UPnP
03:25:30 [giuseppe]
giuseppe has left #dap
03:25:31 [giuseppe]
giuseppe has joined #dap
03:25:43 [Josh_Soref]
... With local discovery
03:25:58 [jhawkins]
q+
03:25:58 [Josh_Soref]
... UPnP / mDNS
03:26:19 [Josh_Soref]
... UA needs to handle dynamic service availability
03:26:55 [Josh_Soref]
... Should discovery require user initiation ?
03:27:14 [Josh_Soref]
... Questions?
03:27:34 [Josh_Soref]
Fjh: I'm confused by the background case
03:27:35 [Josh_Soref]
...
03:27:46 [Josh_Soref]
... You have a worker
03:28:07 [Josh_Soref]
Claes: for when the server doesn't have a UI
03:28:09 [bryan_sullivan]
Same-origin restrictions can be addressed by CORS, right?
03:28:19 [darobin]
ACTION: giuseppe to figure out how to put together a document describing how to do Intents with existing UPnP (himself or by finding someone who does it)
03:28:19 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-511 - Figure out how to put together a document describing how to do Intents with existing UPnP (himself or by finding someone who does it) [on Giuseppe Pascale - due 2012-03-27].
03:28:24 [Josh_Soref]
... Or a website application is a sensor
03:28:43 [fjh]
q?
03:28:45 [fjh]
ack fjh
03:28:45 [Zakim]
fjh, you wanted to ask purpose for background version, to avoid security issues?
03:28:48 [fjh]
ack gbillock
03:29:03 [Josh_Soref]
Greg: do existing devices support XHR?
03:29:10 [Josh_Soref]
Claes: yes
03:29:21 [bryan_sullivan]
Example of "high-level service specific protocols" that need to be specified (and does this mean new specs or references)?
03:29:27 [Josh_Soref]
Greg: for background pages
03:29:42 [Josh_Soref]
... We've talked about that before
03:30:05 [Josh_Soref]
... We've also discussed transient registration
03:30:17 [Josh_Soref]
... For redelivery
03:31:01 [Josh_Soref]
... Where you want the same Intent should go to
03:31:40 [Josh_Soref]
... The current specification has new instances being loaded in new pages
03:32:09 [Josh_Soref]
... Our Chrome UI team is very concerned about a lack of a control surface
03:32:19 [Josh_Soref]
... To display Error cases
03:32:52 [Josh_Soref]
... Having controls by the device itse
03:33:07 [bryan_sullivan]
Background Intent providers may need a heartbeat mechanism to ensure status is clear, i.e. if the intent "connection" drops the client app knows.
03:33:14 [Josh_Soref]
... Is the problem I have with printers
03:33:19 [OliverD]
s/itse/itself/
03:33:27 [bryan_sullivan]
Or is that covered with error callbacks?
03:33:30 [Deepanshu]
redial..................the chinese number (+8675528560880) should work
03:33:38 [Josh_Soref]
... It's hard with a printer to do things
03:33:38 [Daniel-Samsung]
q+
03:33:53 [Josh_Soref]
... But you can do it with a computer
03:33:53 [giuseppe]
I agree with what said now, you need both
03:34:13 [Deepanshu]
* cool
03:34:37 [darobin]
s/* cool//
03:34:48 [Josh_Soref]
... The specification doesn't prevent these things
03:34:52 [fjh]
s/* cool//
03:35:02 [bryan_sullivan]
Re search initiation by the user or app, the permission of an app to automatically invoke search should at least be initially approved by the user, but can be persistent.
03:35:05 [darobin]
q?
03:35:06 [fjh]
q?
03:35:16 [fjh]
ack jhawkins
03:35:16 [darobin]
ack jhawkins
03:35:56 [fjh]
james: originally saw no need for background disposition, however added action for self to create UX disposition so we can think about this
03:36:49 [jcdufourd]
there is definitely a need for allowing a service with no UI
03:37:07 [fjh]
james: need to make inline clear in spec for picker (action for james?0
03:37:12 [fjh]
s/0/)/
03:37:22 [fjh]
q?
03:37:37 [fjh]
ack Daniel-Samsung
03:38:41 [fjh]
james: concerned about securiyt
03:38:51 [fjh]
s/securiyt/security/
03:38:59 [OliverD]
q+ Josh_Soref
03:39:00 [fjh]
fjh: we need to review implications
03:39:21 [bryan_sullivan]
q+
03:40:36 [fjh]
ack Josh_Soref
03:41:18 [fjh]
Josh_Soref: UPnP is flawed, assumes everyone is well behaved and trusted, yet web is not well behaved and trusted
03:41:25 [bryan_sullivan]
Security is addressed by the users which own/manage the devices that could offer Web Intents accessed services.
03:42:07 [fjh]
... need to have user interaction to have tv to switch input port, thus we need this approach in general, including UPnP
03:42:12 [bryan_sullivan]
And more specifically the abilities of those devices to control who/what/when services can be accessed.
03:42:20 [fjh]
ack bryan
03:42:59 [fjh]
bryan: lots of devices in the home, assume they are safe
03:43:17 [fjh]
... but not true if others come into house, etc. e.g. kids friends could access devices
03:43:21 [fjh]
... thus security a concern
03:43:26 [Josh_Soref]
Bryan: kids' friends come over and content propagates
03:43:30 [dsr]
q+ to note that further work on new discovery mechanisms could address privacy by limiting who can see which services are available as part of a broader framework for access control on publicly accessible local networks
03:43:56 [fjh]
ack dsr
03:43:56 [Zakim]
dsr, you wanted to note that further work on new discovery mechanisms could address privacy by limiting who can see which services are available as part of a broader framework for
03:43:59 [Zakim]
... access control on publicly accessible local networks
03:44:26 [Josh_Soref]
... If I'm accessing content from a device, I assume the device owner has control over the content they're providing
03:44:28 [fjh]
so you could currently fingerprint a network
03:44:29 [darobin]
q?
03:44:35 [bryan_sullivan]
q-
03:44:44 [Josh_Soref]
Dsr: that's outside of scope
03:45:19 [Josh_Soref]
Claes: thank you. We're also doing prototyping
03:45:30 [dsr]
dsr: to note that further work on new discovery mechanisms could address privacy by limiting who can see which services are available as part of a broader framework for access control on publicly accessible local networks
03:45:51 [nwidell]
Notes that discovery on home network requires me to give people access to that home network to start with
03:46:13 [fjh]
Topic: WebIntents issues discussion
03:46:23 [Josh_Soref]
James: perhaps brain storming
03:46:36 [Josh_Soref]
... We have a W3C bugzilla product
03:46:49 [Josh_Soref]
... We have 45 minutes before lunch
03:47:17 [Josh_Soref]
... It would be great to have a set of deliverables after these two days
03:47:31 [Josh_Soref]
... This is just collecting questions
03:47:36 [Josh_Soref]
... No answers
03:47:57 [Josh_Soref]
Darobin: in the minutes
03:48:14 [Josh_Soref]
James: what does an identity indic
03:48:15 [fjh]
s/discussion/brainstorm/
03:48:33 [OliverD]
s/indic/indicate/
03:48:37 [bryan_sullivan]
How are Web Intent verb space managed
03:49:03 [Josh_Soref]
... Underlying implementation is OAUTH / BrowserID
03:49:25 [Josh_Soref]
Fjh: how does intents work with proxy browsing
03:49:26 [darobin]
RB: could this be modelled after the BrowserID interaction model?
03:49:43 [darobin]
-> IDENTIFY
03:50:20 [Josh_Soref]
James: we have a way to. Specify the type, how do we specify ye format (blob, file, url)?
03:50:29 [bryan_sullivan]
We should consider the questions noted in the linked pages on the Web Intents wiki addressed, e.g. at http://glennjones.net/2011/10/choosing-the-right-words-web-intents/
03:50:38 [giuseppe]
if I can add a verb point made by bryan, to be able to do a "mapping" spec on UpnP and other protocols we need a clear definition of each verb. I'm still not sure where the verbs will be defined
03:50:39 [darobin]
RB: could that simply depend on the pre-agreed protocol?
03:50:41 [Josh_Soref]
Darobin: can that be specified by the verb?
03:50:49 [fjh]
s/proxy browsing/ proxy browsing, e.g if portion of client processing is performed server side , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opera_(web_browser) /
03:52:02 [bryan_sullivan]
Are there any versioning issues for intents?
03:52:14 [Josh_Soref]
Deepanshu: with several intents registering on a single page, how can we make them register without disturbing the user
03:52:29 [Josh_Soref]
James: how do we test webintents
03:52:54 [Josh_Soref]
Darobin: in Class's proposal, we saw media types
03:53:05 [fjh]
fjh: how do we obtain access to local device services, presumably via DAP standard APIs, get adoption given both browser and device implementations
03:53:19 [Josh_Soref]
Bryan: will there be versioning issues?
03:53:32 [Claes]
q+
03:53:38 [Josh_Soref]
James: is webintents dcom for the way?
03:54:02 [Josh_Soref]
Bryan: if an intent provider changes, do I need to inform someone?
03:54:26 [Josh_Soref]
James: what's the sweet spot, for schema.org
03:54:43 [Josh_Soref]
... Is it a potential solution for the data format problem
03:55:14 [fjh]
ack claes
03:55:18 [Josh_Soref]
Fjh: what happens when there are zillions of providers in the picker?
03:55:21 [bryan_sullivan]
Does the user need to be informed when an Intent Provider webapp has changed, potentially in ways that could impact the user experience - e.g. use a last-modified value to show that the current provider webapp is different from the one approved by the user?
03:55:35 [gbillock]
gbillock has joined #dap
03:55:45 [fjh]
s/picker/picker, is this a usability concern
03:55:50 [Josh_Soref]
Claes: can the user select a default service? Or is that a UI detail
03:56:36 [Josh_Soref]
Jon_king: is there a way to do pipelining?
03:56:58 [Josh_Soref]
James: is that for a single domain?
03:56:59 [Jungkee]
Jungkee Josh !
03:57:08 [fjh]
pipelining - sounds like xproc fro the web
03:57:14 [fjh]
s/fro/for/
03:57:24 [Josh_Soref]
Won_Suk: if an application is on the device
03:57:40 [Josh_Soref]
... Can a client access that. Native application
03:57:53 [bryan_sullivan]
Should there be any ability of the user to restrict Web Intents to only "well-known" intent verbs (types)?
03:58:26 [OliverD]
s/Jon_king/Jungkee/
03:58:39 [Josh_Soref]
James: should the WebIntents specification document how to handle native applications
03:58:52 [fjh]
this was what I was asking as well, assuming DAP?
03:58:56 [jcdufourd]
should we consider hierarchical intents (as a way to manage large numbers of intents) ? "subintents" available within the activity of a "top intent" ?
03:58:58 [Josh_Soref]
Darobin: how does it work with Private Browsing
03:59:23 [Josh_Soref]
Dsr: Re an earlier conversation
03:59:55 [Josh_Soref]
... What is the relationship between the requesting page and the providing page
04:00:20 [Josh_Soref]
James: same concerns for explicit intents
04:00:54 [Josh_Soref]
Dsr: should a User Agent warn that an Intent is private / rare
04:01:20 [fjh]
in this case intent is not standard so this is private agreement between client and service, how does user know
04:01:26 [Josh_Soref]
Samarth: how does the UI integrate
04:01:38 [dsr]
do we show the user in the picker that this is a non-standard intent, i.e. likely to me direct relationship between the site requesting the intent and the site providing that intent
04:01:51 [Josh_Soref]
Greg: will clients want a UA provided UI for intents
04:02:06 [Josh_Soref]
... As in the case of a file upload widget
04:02:07 [dsr]
s/to me/to be/
04:02:35 [Josh_Soref]
Host: when I first read WebIntents
04:02:52 [Josh_Soref]
... It's a way for the...
04:04:00 [Josh_Soref]
... User Agent to understand the user's behaviors and do things in the future. If not, could it be done in the future
04:04:11 [bryan_sullivan]
Still looking for info on what an "explicit intent" is. Does anyone have a link?
04:04:22 [Josh_Soref]
Won_Suk: with WebRTC
04:04:33 [Josh_Soref]
... A Web application
04:04:51 [Josh_Soref]
... Could it be registered to handle video / audio
04:04:56 [dsr]
my understanding Bryan, is that explicit intent is where the intent is for a specific service instance.
04:05:14 [Josh_Soref]
James: what's the integration point for other working groups
04:05:22 [fjh]
http://www.vogella.de/articles/AndroidIntent/article.html#intents_explicit
04:05:31 [Josh_Soref]
Darobin: do we need a REST document
04:05:58 [bryan_sullivan]
thanks
04:06:11 [Josh_Soref]
Deepanshu: can we come up with a document for intents and ensure interoperability
04:06:29 [Josh_Soref]
James: what would a payment intent look like?
04:06:35 [bryan_sullivan]
The vogella.de is about Android intents. Is the meaning the same for Web Intents?
04:06:39 [fjh]
q?
04:06:41 [darobin]
s/do we need a REST document/do we need a REST equivalent to document the architectural style of Intents/
04:07:13 [Josh_Soref]
Josh_Soref: what would an NFC intent look like?
04:07:19 [Deepanshu]
Deepanshu: can we come up with a list of intents (verb) and ensure interoperability?
04:07:42 [Josh_Soref]
Oliver: is there a case for relaxing the same origin restriction
04:08:01 [Josh_Soref]
Fjh: explicit intents??
04:08:41 [Josh_Soref]
James: Explicit intents is when a page says "I want to use this specific service "
04:09:02 [Jack]
As for performance be concerned, how to improve the web intent's performance?
04:09:03 [Josh_Soref]
Fjh: are there any in-raised security concerns
04:09:21 [Josh_Soref]
Greg: are there any spam/phishing risks
04:09:34 [fjh]
s/in-raised security concerns/security concerns that we have not identified with web intents/
04:09:46 [Josh_Soref]
Dsr: intents is about using services you've found
04:10:12 [Josh_Soref]
... What is the relationship between services and searching for an intent
04:10:29 [Josh_Soref]
... Or intent based searches
04:10:43 [giuseppe]
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04:10:58 [Josh_Soref]
Darobin: every email client I've ever tried is horrible
04:11:21 [Josh_Soref]
... I'd like to source different pieces from different providers
04:11:25 [bryan_sullivan]
(similar to the earlier question about users restricting Web Intent use to only standardized intent verbs) outside of a customized / managed browser, how can an enterprise restrict the set of intents that are available to an employee, for security reasons?
04:11:29 [fjh]
darobin: can composing applications using web intents to provide seamless ui, e.g. email
04:12:02 [Josh_Soref]
James: do we have use cases for providing persistent acceptance for services
04:12:32 [Josh_Soref]
... Say that a Site is linked to another by default
04:13:20 [jcdufourd]
what about sharing an intent "session" between two or more devices ?
04:14:01 [bryan_sullivan]
How would the RPH and RCH functions be replaced by Web Intents, i.e. is Web Intents a true superset (or intended to be)?
04:14:06 [Josh_Soref]
Josh_Soref: do we have a way for a user to save pipelines
04:14:26 [Josh_Soref]
Fjh: what can we learn from previous groups?
04:14:34 [fjh]
s/groups/work, like ws* etc
04:15:34 [Josh_Soref]
Bryan: outside a customized / managed browser, could IT restrict verbs and/or providers
04:16:28 [Josh_Soref]
Darobin: android applications often do stupid things like asking for permission to do direct access instead of using the Android pick api
04:17:15 [Josh_Soref]
James: what are the holes that android intents hit, and can we avoid them
04:18:03 [Josh_Soref]
Greg: is it too easy to get a "user initiated action" in browsers
04:18:32 [Josh_Soref]
Fjh: for privacy, is it too easy to "give consent"
04:18:59 [Josh_Soref]
Fjh: do intents need to support auditing /forensics
04:19:04 [fjh]
need to be clear that active consent is informed and suitable for privacy
04:19:29 [Josh_Soref]
James: how much UX is required to enable a Page to register an intent
04:19:39 [Josh_Soref]
... Currently we use. And information bar
04:19:47 [Josh_Soref]
... Is that too much/little
04:19:54 [Claes]
q+
04:20:14 [fjh]
ack Claes
04:20:17 [Josh_Soref]
Fjh: given flexibility of actions/implementation, can we change as we go forward
04:20:49 [fjh]
s/forward/and learn/
04:21:14 [Josh_Soref]
Claes: assuming you have a page that wants to use several instances of an action + type
04:21:33 [Josh_Soref]
... And you want to take the same action for each
04:21:47 [Josh_Soref]
... How do you address that
04:22:10 [dsr]
example being a number of sensors
04:23:10 [Josh_Soref]
Hiro: how to specify a filter
04:23:51 [Josh_Soref]
... So a provider can refuse service for some requesting page
04:24:35 [Josh_Soref]
Fjh: what are web intents not good for and when shouldn't they be used
04:25:05 [Josh_Soref]
Darobin: what can we hide from providers
04:25:20 [Josh_Soref]
Oliver: should we require ssl
04:25:26 [fjh]
s/providers/providers, to avoid tracking/
04:25:33 [Josh_Soref]
... How do we avoid MITM attacks
04:26:04 [Josh_Soref]
James: how much UI/UX requirements should be MUST
04:26:35 [Josh_Soref]
James: for inline disposition, how much about the service should be mandated
04:26:59 [fjh]
fjh: what if we do not have a browser but use web intents, e.g. no chrome but use of webIntents
04:27:13 [Josh_Soref]
James: what are more use cases for the background disposition
04:27:49 [Josh_Soref]
Deepanshu: how do we educate users about intent registration so they can make a decision
04:28:15 [fjh]
s/a decision/an informed decision about accepting it/
04:28:25 [Josh_Soref]
James: how closely is the Web permissions model
04:28:30 [sicking]
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04:28:37 [Josh_Soref]
... Can we use its model for Intents registration
04:29:21 [Josh_Soref]
Darobin: what would be an interesting use of Intents for the automotive industry
04:29:38 [Josh_Soref]
Bryan: how does Intents work with html speech
04:29:51 [Josh_Soref]
Fjh: what changes do we need to make to html5
04:30:00 [Deepanshu]
Deepanshu: Given the current Intent registration proposal (info being registerd) how do we educate users about intent registration enough so they can make a decision?
04:30:05 [Josh_Soref]
... Or can they be done elsewhere
04:30:18 [Josh_Soref]
[ Lunch ]
04:32:07 [fjh]
james: next steps?
04:32:30 [fjh]
fjh: suggest we group the questions, then once have groupings look at interest of various groups
04:32:55 [bryan_sullivan]
What are the accessibility aspects to be considered in Web Intents?
04:36:19 [AnssiK1]
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05:45:40 [OliverD]
rrsagent, draft minutes
05:45:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html OliverD
05:47:32 [wonsuk]
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05:47:37 [bryan_sullivan]
ping
05:48:18 [OliverD]
s|/s/api/api/||
05:48:28 [a12u]
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05:48:41 [fjh]
Topic: Web Intents Demo
05:49:30 [aizu]
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05:50:47 [fjh]
slides from dsr -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/images/3/3b/Dsr-webintents-shenzhen.pdf
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05:56:46 [Eric]
Eric has joined #dap
05:59:35 [fjh]
dsr: access to system level APIs might be useful from Chrome extensions to make more usable for developer for WebIntents
05:59:53 [li]
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06:00:07 [Qiuling]
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06:00:57 [darobin]
DSR: maybe there is room for W3C to consider some form of service description language
06:01:02 [fjh]
dsr: may need W3C work on service description at higher level than UPnP to enable other discovery mechanisms such as zeroconf
06:02:12 [qiang]
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06:02:28 [Josh_Soref]
Scribe: Josh_Soref
06:02:32 [fjh]
fjh: will the sources be available
06:02:34 [fjh]
dsr: yes
06:02:46 [fjh]
s/yes/yes, will put on wiki/
06:03:01 [Josh_Soref]
James: stickies?
06:03:02 [ray]
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06:03:17 [Josh_Soref]
Deepanshu: not yet
06:04:13 [ray]
ray has joined #dap
06:04:31 [Josh_Soref]
Topic: IPR
06:04:52 [Josh_Soref]
Dsr: this is a joint deliverable
06:05:30 [Josh_Soref]
... Since WebApps is in the middle of rechartering
06:05:41 [Jack]
Jack has joined #dap
06:05:57 [Josh_Soref]
... And doesn't currently have WebIntents in its charter
06:06:07 [darobin]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/webapps-2012/ -> WebApps call for review
06:06:22 [Josh_Soref]
... It would be okay once they recharter
06:06:52 [Josh_Soref]
... Or members not in DAP can give individual commitments
06:08:39 [Josh_Soref]
Darobin: the timeline for WebApps rechartering is April (review) and completion in May
06:10:09 [darobin]
s/in May/probably in May/
06:10:41 [darobin]
http://w3c-test.org/dap/contacts/ -> Contacts API
06:13:44 [fjh]
Topic: WebIntents transferrables etc
06:13:56 [fjh]
Greg: spec already updated
06:14:01 [Josh_Soref]
Topic: Web Intents API changes
06:14:28 [fjh]
greg: use case is for example sharing metadata such as filename, create time in addition to file blog, hence array addition
06:14:33 [Josh_Soref]
Greg: we have always planned to have web messaging
06:15:09 [Josh_Soref]
... We had hoped web messaging would have made this easier
06:15:48 [Josh_Soref]
... There are plans to make more things transferable / clonable
06:16:47 [Josh_Soref]
... Messaging is acknowledged to be asthetically challenged
06:17:23 [jhawkins]
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06:17:43 [Josh_Soref]
... Ports end up in a different field than where they were sent to the original request
06:18:09 [Josh_Soref]
... There's also an additional extra accessor
06:18:15 [fjh]
q?
06:18:55 [Josh_Soref]
Claes: I'd like to see some examples
06:19:17 [bryan_sullivan]
q+
06:19:43 [Josh_Soref]
Fjh: transferable are defined in the html5 specification
06:19:48 [fjh]
ack: bryan
06:19:51 [Josh_Soref]
Greg: yes
06:20:09 [bryan_sullivan]
q-
06:20:11 [Josh_Soref]
Bryan: I didn't see much detail
06:20:35 [Josh_Soref]
Greg: yes, he specification is very geared to Browser developers
06:20:37 [Josh_Soref]
..
06:20:50 [OliverD]
s/..//
06:21:07 [OliverD]
s/he/the/
06:21:23 [Josh_Soref]
... We need to add stuff for Content developers
06:21:46 [Josh_Soref]
Topic: Contacts
06:22:19 [Josh_Soref]
Fjh: we stabilized a format for data
06:22:40 [Josh_Soref]
... Until Josh_Soref joined
06:23:09 [bryan_sullivan]
q+
06:23:26 [Josh_Soref]
Fjh: are we finding a card or an address book?
06:24:12 [Josh_Soref]
James: it's both, you could "pick" vCard, or Address Book, or email address
06:24:29 [fjh]
http://www.w3.org/TR/contacts-api/
06:25:02 [Josh_Soref]
Fjh: when we did this originally, we wanted an interaction
06:25:48 [Josh_Soref]
... Maybe we should talk about how this UI (non mandatory) would work with WebIntents
06:25:52 [bryan_sullivan]
I was going to comment that data minimization was a key consideration, and the browser UI was expected to manage what fields would be provided to the app, based upon user selection (or at least that's how I thought it was working).
06:25:55 [bryan_sullivan]
q-
06:27:42 [bryan_sullivan]
q+
06:27:46 [Josh_Soref]
[ fjh describes chooser ]
06:28:09 [Josh_Soref]
q+
06:28:10 [bryan_sullivan]
the data minimization is I think the responsibility of the Web Intent provider, not the browser in Web Intents
06:28:57 [Josh_Soref]
James: maybe for picking contact you can get more than one
06:29:36 [bryan_sullivan]
the browser provides access to the Web Intent provider (allows selection among the providers), but is it intended for the browser to manage field-level access, or is that the responsibility of the Web Intent provider (the latter, I thought)
06:30:01 [fjh]
q?
06:30:10 [fjh]
ack Josh_Soref
06:30:26 [dsr]
The application could request specific fields for each contact, e.g. first name, salutations and email addresses. James notes this could be indicated in the intent extras field.
06:31:04 [bryan_sullivan]
... i.e. Josh said what I did
06:31:57 [gbillock]
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06:32:13 [gbillock]
q+
06:32:31 [Josh_Soref]
Josh_Soref: (I said what Bryan wrote)
06:33:34 [fjh]
q+
06:33:41 [fjh]
ack bryan_sullivan
06:34:22 [fjh]
ack gbillock
06:34:36 [jhawkins]
jhawkins has joined #dap
06:34:42 [Ruinan_]
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06:35:15 [Josh_Soref]
James: Do we need his API now that we have WebIntents?
06:35:49 [Josh_Soref]
Josh_Soref: not as an API, just a definition as an intent action
06:36:22 [Josh_Soref]
Fjh: and something needs to define the data format
06:36:23 [WU]
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06:36:54 [Josh_Soref]
... And is there something for privacy to be taken from the contacts API
06:37:23 [Josh_Soref]
Darobin: since someone is writing a document for TAG
06:37:33 [Josh_Soref]
... Maybe it can go there
06:37:37 [darobin]
ACTION: Robin to propose linking to "Privacy by Design in APIs" from Web Intents draft when it's ready
06:37:37 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-512 - Propose linking to "Privacy by Design in APIs" from Web Intents draft when it's ready [on Robin Berjon - due 2012-03-27].
06:37:39 [gbillock]
q+
06:38:07 [Josh_Soref]
James: adding a contact is the save action
06:39:03 [Josh_Soref]
Josh_Soref: or just returning a card as a file and having the content handler map to an Intent handler
06:39:22 [Josh_Soref]
James: the reason we had actions as urls
06:39:41 [Josh_Soref]
... Is to have documentation on apis at those urls
06:40:10 [Josh_Soref]
... WebIntents.Org/{action}
06:40:31 [Josh_Soref]
... But maybe it doesn't scale
06:41:41 [Josh_Soref]
Fjh: I'm concerned about IPR protection
06:41:50 [bryan_sullivan]
q+ to ask if the "type" field of the intent is limited to MIME types, e.g. to the scalability issue raised by Robin
06:42:12 [Josh_Soref]
Darobin: when we need to create a verb,
06:42:27 [bryan_sullivan]
e.g. could we use "pick" for generic web search?
06:43:28 [jhawkins]
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06:43:38 [fjh]
action: richt to consider updating Contacts specification to add WebIntents section
06:43:39 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-513 - Consider updating Contacts specification to add WebIntents section [on Richard Tibbett - due 2012-03-27].
06:43:41 [Josh_Soref]
... We need to get director approval and have a document
06:44:26 [fjh]
q?
06:44:28 [Josh_Soref]
Greg: defining query language should be as a hint
06:44:30 [gbillock]
q-
06:44:31 [fjh]
ack fjh
06:44:35 [fjh]
ack bryan
06:44:35 [Zakim]
bryan_sullivan, you wanted to ask if the "type" field of the intent is limited to MIME types, e.g. to the scalability issue raised by Robin
06:44:43 [fjh]
q?
06:45:35 [Josh_Soref]
Josh_Soref: we already reached that conclusion in the contacts specification
06:45:52 [Josh_Soref]
Bryan: maybe already answered
06:46:15 [Josh_Soref]
... What can I pick?
06:46:41 [Josh_Soref]
James: schema.Org has noun definitions
06:46:52 [fjh]
s/can I pick?/can I pick, e.g. organization/
06:47:05 [Josh_Soref]
Darobin: does it have an image type?
06:47:28 [Josh_Soref]
James: yes
06:47:48 [fjh]
http://schema.org/
06:47:52 [Josh_Soref]
James: there's action * data * format
06:48:34 [Josh_Soref]
... Maybe saying that type can be a mime type or a schema.Org type
06:49:05 [Josh_Soref]
Darobin: we're circling around...
06:49:19 [Josh_Soref]
... The dark path is content negotiation
06:49:42 [Josh_Soref]
James: hypothetically, we mandate schema.org
06:49:52 [Josh_Soref]
... Drop mime type
06:50:10 [Josh_Soref]
... Schema.org specifies the data
06:50:15 [fjh]
address information -> http://schema.org/PostalAddress
06:50:33 [bryan_sullivan]
would the schema.org nouns e.g. allow me to define an Intent based service through which I can pick a news service?
06:50:37 [Josh_Soref]
Greg: not all binary types have formats in schema.org
06:50:48 [darobin]
"text/uri-list;type=image/jpeg"
06:51:10 [Josh_Soref]
... When you ask for text/uri-list
06:51:23 [bryan_sullivan]
or pick a plumber?
06:51:39 [Josh_Soref]
... How do you know what the contained type is?
06:51:57 [fjh]
did schema.org reinvent OIDs?
06:52:02 [Josh_Soref]
Darobin: you end up with a type in your type.
06:52:41 [Josh_Soref]
Greg: the advantage is types are defined
06:52:49 [Josh_Soref]
At a known place
06:53:44 [Josh_Soref]
Darobin: pictures, and people
06:53:58 [Josh_Soref]
... Encoding
06:54:32 [Josh_Soref]
James: sounds like we'll use schema.org
06:55:04 [bryan_sullivan]
q+
06:55:04 [Josh_Soref]
... Things get complicated when you expand the namespace
06:55:33 [Josh_Soref]
Darobin: There's an IG for schemas
06:55:40 [darobin]
ACTION: Robin to talk to the Web Schema group about using schema.org nouns for Intents
06:55:40 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-514 - Talk to the Web Schema group about using schema.org nouns for Intents [on Robin Berjon - due 2012-03-27].
06:55:42 [fjh]
ack bryan
06:56:19 [Josh_Soref]
Bryan: I should be able to pick for news
06:56:32 [fjh]
http://schema.org/NewsArticle
06:57:04 [Josh_Soref]
Greg: some things are solved by specialized providers
06:57:36 [fjh]
shall we have a wiki to document these types of decisions/changes - mime type to type + encoding?
06:58:18 [Josh_Soref]
Greg: mime types don't evolve fast enough (?_
06:58:46 [OliverD]
s/_/)/
06:59:17 [Josh_Soref]
James: did android not suffer from this as they used mime types
06:59:29 [fjh]
q+ to ask about interop with open interface to schema.org
06:59:46 [shunan_]
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06:59:58 [fjh]
Is there any issue with referencing schema.org, questions about governance etc
07:00:22 [Josh_Soref]
Greg: android types are very explicit using url ingredients
07:00:47 [Josh_Soref]
Fjh: eventually we create a specification
07:01:05 [Josh_Soref]
... And do interoperability testing
07:01:11 [Josh_Soref]
q+
07:01:22 [Josh_Soref]
Ack fjh
07:01:22 [Zakim]
fjh, you wanted to ask about interop with open interface to schema.org
07:01:34 [fjh]
how do we complete interop testing on webintents, especially with large scope of schema.org
07:02:19 [bryan_sullivan]
aren't the issues for testing similar to Web Messaging, Workers, etc? The approaches being taken to test the requester/provider in those cases should also be usable as the model for Web Intents.
07:02:35 [fjh]
josh: webIDL is example of testing, limited to testing 2 choices against 2 implementations, e.g. 2 different actions etc
07:02:52 [bryan_sullivan]
other than that, the UI specific requirements would require specific tests
07:03:56 [fjh]
josh: many browsers have automation support, can thus automate much of this
07:04:08 [fjh]
darobin: not sure about iframes and testing
07:04:17 [fjh]
... for registration testing might be an issue
07:05:12 [fjh]
designpush page http://designpush.pbworks.com/w/page/48061310/FrontPage
07:05:32 [Josh_Soref]
Topic: WebIntents Design Push
07:05:57 [Josh_Soref]
James: we met in Brighton
07:06:22 [Josh_Soref]
... Twitter's developer Site is inviting
07:06:34 [Josh_Soref]
... WebIntents.Org is a mess
07:06:54 [Josh_Soref]
... There was a lot of discussion on Picker UI
07:07:21 [fjh]
q?
07:07:44 [Josh_Soref]
... A lot of it was me explaining the lessons we learned from implementing it in Chrome
07:07:50 [Josh_Soref]
q-
07:08:46 [Josh_Soref]
Darobin: the Intent constructor argument length has grown too much
07:09:06 [Josh_Soref]
... I'm looking into talking with the Schema people
07:09:33 [fjh]
action: james to write webintents demo using schema.org objects, with split type and encoding
07:09:34 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-515 - Write webintents demo using schema.org objects, with split type and encoding [on James Salsman - due 2012-03-27].
07:09:39 [Josh_Soref]
James: Greg and I will look into splitting the type and encoding
07:09:55 [darobin]
close ACTION-515
07:09:55 [trackbot]
ACTION-515 Write webintents demo using schema.org objects, with split type and encoding closed
07:10:20 [fjh]
james to write webintents demo using schema.org objects, with split type and encoding
07:11:32 [giuseppe]
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07:13:22 [Josh_Soref]
James: darobin, what would it take to move to the object literal format?
07:13:36 [Josh_Soref]
Darobin: not much
07:14:05 [Eric]
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07:14:12 [Josh_Soref]
... When you have 6, mostly optional arguments
07:14:20 [Josh_Soref]
James: ok
07:15:10 [Qiuling]
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07:16:07 [Josh_Soref]
Topic: Work Modes
07:16:29 [Soonho]
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07:16:45 [Josh_Soref]
Josh_Soref: there are two main modes in W3C
07:17:33 [Josh_Soref]
... In one, groups discuss potential changes, reach a conclusion and the editor records it
07:18:45 [darobin]
http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebIntents/ContactsAPI -> Contacts API example using Intents
07:18:53 [lgombos_]
Laszlo nod that it is a break
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07:19:31 [Josh_Soref]
... In the other, the editor makes a change and then people review the changes
07:19:49 [Josh_Soref]
[ break for 30 minutes ]
07:20:08 [lgombos_]
fjh, ok
07:20:19 [OliverD]
rrsagent, draft minutes
07:20:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html OliverD
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07:51:54 [OliverD]
s/fjh, ok//
07:52:10 [OliverD]
s/Laszlo nod that it is a break//
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07:56:34 [OliverD]
s/19 March/20 March/
07:56:38 [OliverD]
rrsagent, draft minutes
07:56:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html OliverD
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07:57:51 [OliverD]
s|s/01:06 < darobin>||
07:59:09 [OliverD]
s/Its huawei internal conference/It's a huawei internal conference/
07:59:53 [OliverD]
s/EG/e.g./
08:06:01 [OliverD]
s/(?_/(?)/
08:06:08 [OliverD]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:06:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html OliverD
08:08:12 [Eric]
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08:11:02 [fjh]
s/from 13 March/from 14 March/
08:11:22 [fjh]
fixed RESOLUTION to reflect correct date of approved minutes
08:21:57 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
08:21:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html fjh
08:25:56 [fjh]
s/Minutes from 13 March 2012 are approved/Minutes from 14 March 2012 are approved/
08:26:44 [fjh]
Date: 20 March 2012
08:26:49 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
08:26:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html fjh
08:33:09 [Josh_Soref]
Topic: WebIntents Brainstorm Triage
08:34:28 [OliverD]
s/Host:/Quiling_Pan:/g
08:35:27 [Josh_Soref]
Darobin: Should WebIntents be concerned with identifying behavior patterns?
08:35:40 [Josh_Soref]
... For DAP group
08:36:05 [Josh_Soref]
... - out of scope for WebIntents. DAP can look
08:36:28 [Josh_Soref]
... Is WebIntents = DCOM for the Web?
08:36:41 [Josh_Soref]
[ Laughter ]
08:37:27 [Josh_Soref]
Darobin: How to improve WebIntents performance?
08:37:57 [Qiuling]
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08:38:00 [Josh_Soref]
... - issue event on Intent load
08:40:06 [Josh_Soref]
... Do we need a REST style document for the interaction architecture
08:40:52 [fjh]
I created wiki to record DAP issues related to WebIntents -> http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/wiki/WebIntent_Issues
08:40:57 [Josh_Soref]
James: Intents specifies not to do anything until the object is fully ready
08:41:19 [Josh_Soref]
... - window.event
08:41:49 [fjh]
action for James to send item to list related to blocking and intent on window
08:41:49 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - for
08:41:58 [Josh_Soref]
... But, we can move to adding an event to indicate when an event is ready
08:43:06 [Josh_Soref]
James: how do we handle too many providers?
08:43:19 [fjh]
james has action to send item to mail list related to blocking and webintents intent window item
08:43:27 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
08:43:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html fjh
08:43:32 [Josh_Soref]
... The browser will handle it with heuristics / history
08:43:58 [Josh_Soref]
... Can the user select a default service?
08:44:17 [Josh_Soref]
... - a user agent could support this
08:44:33 [Josh_Soref]
... How do we specify type vs. Format?
08:44:37 [fjh]
s/James has/AI James has/
08:44:54 [Josh_Soref]
... - I have an action item on that
08:45:38 [Josh_Soref]
... Explicit intents
08:45:51 [Josh_Soref]
... - I'll send a proposal
08:45:55 [fjh]
AI James to send proposal to split to type and encoding, related to schema.org
08:46:05 [fjh]
s/james has/AI james has/
08:46:29 [Josh_Soref]
... Should the UA warn if an Intent is rare?
08:47:10 [Josh_Soref]
Darobin: Is that a QoI / phishing issue?
08:49:09 [Josh_Soref]
Josh_Soref: it's QoI, but not having informative text means that non major browsers will miss important securiI issues.
08:51:35 [Josh_Soref]
Darobin: <intent> tag
08:52:04 [Josh_Soref]
Greg: advantage, explicit
08:52:21 [Josh_Soref]
... Doesn't work in head
08:52:28 [fjh]
q+ to ask about meta ambiguity
08:52:59 [Josh_Soref]
.
08:53:10 [fjh]
q-
08:53:22 [OliverD]
s/.//
08:53:51 [Josh_Soref]
... Explicit also provides for fallback / alternative content
08:54:16 [fjh]
it can become a pattern to learn, hence meta tag ambiguity might not be a problem
08:54:59 [Josh_Soref]
James: we need a way to crawl / index
08:57:03 [fjh]
james asks what about imperative registration
08:57:36 [Josh_Soref]
... Imperative handles unregistering
08:57:47 [fjh]
s/imperative/declarative
08:57:57 [darobin]
<link action="http://webintents.org/share" rel="intent" type="http://schema.org/Unicorn" encoding="text/vcard">
08:58:07 [darobin]
or rather
08:58:12 [darobin]
<link rel="intent" action="http://webintents.org/share" type="http://schema.org/Unicorn" encoding="text/vcard">
08:59:49 [fjh]
james: benefits to body, include no parsing changing needed, easier to do many things like fallback etc
08:59:50 [bryan_sullivan]
q+ to ask if we could use the <link> tag and define a new relation type via RFC
09:00:04 [fjh]
josh: head has no real benefits, space limitations on head etc
09:00:07 [fjh]
ack bryan
09:00:07 [Zakim]
bryan_sullivan, you wanted to ask if we could use the <link> tag and define a new relation type via RFC
09:03:20 [dsr]
Not sure how strong the argument is about the length of the head, given that people can insert scripts and style sheet rules in the head, although that isn't great practice.
09:04:09 [Josh_Soref]
Bryan: link doesn't seem so out of place
09:04:18 [bryan_sullivan]
q-
09:04:54 [Josh_Soref]
James: the only extended link is the icon tag
09:05:19 [Josh_Soref]
... And we're talking about many more attributes
09:05:38 [Josh_Soref]
... Hixie seems less opposed
09:06:22 [Josh_Soref]
... IE and Safari are supportive
09:06:48 [fjh]
james: waiting for 2 things - rph,rch proposal (done), privacy concern, planning to submit
09:07:02 [Josh_Soref]
... Mozilla has one engineer working on it and some people opposed
09:07:35 [Josh_Soref]
Darobin: richt should have landed
09:07:36 [dsr]
FPWD will accelerate work on implementation.
09:09:28 [Josh_Soref]
James: lifecycle, EG, intent disappears
09:09:43 [Josh_Soref]
... - I don't know
09:10:03 [Josh_Soref]
... When you pick something, we do a spinner
09:10:26 [Josh_Soref]
... If the page 404s, we do one thing
09:10:40 [dcoloma]
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09:11:01 [Josh_Soref]
... If it 200s without the tag, then it's a different c
09:11:18 [OliverD]
s/c/case/
09:12:51 [Josh_Soref]
Greg: [ talks about onload ]
09:14:59 [fjh]
conclusion of discussion is that current webintents draft is clear of lifecycle and needed actions
09:15:06 [fjh]
no need to switch to events
09:16:19 [OliverD]
Josh_Soref: Captive portals could clear the intent registration
09:16:56 [fjh]
s/no need to switch to event/james will send proposal regarding use of events which should be equivalent
09:18:04 [OliverD]
James: Could we catch the 200 an not update the intent registration?
09:18:47 [OliverD]
Josh_Soref: for 200 thas a failure we could show the user a new service
09:19:14 [OliverD]
... the UA will keep track of failures and suggest the service is no longer available
09:19:47 [OliverD]
James: Can a web intent be delivered to a native app?
09:20:00 [OliverD]
... Yes but this is future work
09:20:47 [OliverD]
darobin: there are two parts to this, having access to native apps
09:21:07 [OliverD]
... and the browser providing access to local services like the addressbook
09:21:18 [OliverD]
James: Lets add it to use cases
09:21:37 [OliverD]
Josh_Soref: Modern browsers add an origin tag to files that are downloaded
09:21:54 [OliverD]
... Intents could tag things with a browser origin
09:22:16 [OliverD]
... when the app does the editing it does not see where it comes from but does see it is downloaded
09:22:54 [OliverD]
James: is there a way to do pipelining
09:23:18 [fjh]
not sure how this is obvious
09:23:18 [OliverD]
Josh_Soref: it is an easy yes, but I want an easy fast way to do it
09:23:56 [OliverD]
... I want to be able to save all the steps and not have user interaction for each stage
09:24:27 [OliverD]
James: There are concerns about always wanting to give permission
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09:25:03 [OliverD]
Josh_Soref: the browser should prompt the user to save intent chains with a name
09:25:11 [OliverD]
... that the user can then select later
09:25:47 [fjh]
is this a use case topic?
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09:26:57 [OliverD]
James: are you saying that we see intent use in the middle of a chain and save it so that it does not neeed to be repeated?
09:27:40 [OliverD]
gbillock: This sounds like something that could be handled through browser extensions
09:28:33 [darobin]
[this is a collapsed pipeline]
09:30:11 [OliverD]
Josh_Soref: [ Gives an example of a sequence of intents being used in sequence and the browser collapsing them into one operation ]
09:30:42 [OliverD]
James: Intents require user interaction to initiate
09:31:01 [OliverD]
... Move this to use cases
09:31:19 [OliverD]
... Next question: how can intents handle streaming types
09:32:06 [darobin]
RB: IIRC the proposal for Stream objects included them being cloneable, if so then we just return those for streaming types and we're done
09:32:12 [darobin]
James: done
09:32:25 [darobin]
Greg: they'll either be cloneable or transferable, or both
09:32:26 [OliverD]
James: if an intent service changes do I need to tell someone?
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09:33:06 [OliverD]
... if it answers to the same api but has different behaviour
09:33:17 [OliverD]
Josh_Soref: market correction will handle this
09:34:23 [bryan_sullivan]
q+
09:34:46 [OliverD]
... Will there be an active ignore for intent registration
09:34:53 [OliverD]
James: This is in Chrome
09:35:07 [fjh]
ack bryan
09:35:09 [OliverD]
Josh_Soref: Should this be in the spec?
09:35:24 [OliverD]
gbillock: Maybe as a should
09:36:25 [OliverD]
bryan_sullivan: we need to consider how the user is informed of changes by intent providers
09:36:34 [OliverD]
... I do not think market correction is enough
09:37:32 [OliverD]
... a web intent ad service provider may be chosen by a user because they protect privacy
09:37:45 [OliverD]
... if they stop doing this the user should be informed
09:38:02 [OliverD]
James: So what things do we need to tell the user about?
09:38:23 [OliverD]
fjh: Does this need to be in the spec?
09:38:43 [OliverD]
bryan_sullivan: we are opening a new pathway to user data
09:38:50 [bryan_sullivan]
the use case for "I don't like this provider anymore" is similar to DNT and Tracking Selection Lists, i.e. the user can control what they want to use. But the intent of the question was to ensure notice to the user.
09:38:53 [OliverD]
fjh: I agree we need to keep this in mind
09:39:32 [OliverD]
James: Use of ssl e.g. for inline disposition
09:39:47 [OliverD]
darobin: do we agree we need ssl for this?
09:40:02 [OliverD]
Josh_Soref: we could decide that if we have inline it must have ssl
09:40:18 [OliverD]
... but we do not need to decide if we need inline at this stage
09:40:35 [OliverD]
James: what are the concerns with using non ssl in inline?
09:41:01 [OliverD]
gbillock: How much notification does the user need about the ssl status?
09:41:16 [OliverD]
... if we are not going to display this, we may want to mandate ssl
09:41:25 [OliverD]
James: UX should not madate this
09:41:41 [Cathy]
Can bryan_sullivan's question be addressed by having a mechanism to re-register an intent, where the intent parameters have not been changed?
09:43:17 [fjh]
s/madate/mandate/
09:44:11 [OliverD]
gbillock: I think making a reccomendation for this is sensible as it gets presented as if it is browser chrome
09:44:45 [OliverD]
Josh_Soref: If the incentives are not right this will not be implemented correctly
09:44:53 [OliverD]
... Most sites still don't use ssl
09:45:06 [OliverD]
... we can improve the web by encouraging the right thing
09:45:31 [OliverD]
... this might be a time where we can force people to do the right thing by mandating it
09:45:43 [OliverD]
James: This ups the cost significatnly
09:45:55 [OliverD]
Josh_Soref: This is only for inline
09:46:09 [OliverD]
... the other form is still simpler
09:46:22 [OliverD]
James: At what benfit for the user
09:46:35 [OliverD]
... ?
09:47:00 [OliverD]
Josh_Soref: the user has a tendancy to think that whatever is in that context is safe
09:47:20 [OliverD]
James: I think further discussion may be needed
09:47:21 [fjh]
s/tendancy/tendency/
09:47:35 [Cathy]
s/benfit/benefit/
09:47:50 [OliverD]
Josh_Soref: I travel a lot and things that were safe can be unsafe on untrused networks
09:48:06 [darobin]
ACTION: Josh to propose Security Considerations section on SSL for Intents sepc
09:48:07 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-516 - Propose Security Considerations section on SSL for Intents sepc [on Josh Soref - due 2012-03-27].
09:49:03 [OliverD]
Cathy: Bryan was asking whether there is a way to notify the user
09:49:14 [OliverD]
... when the behaviour of the intent has changed
09:49:27 [OliverD]
... I wonder if there is a need for a reregistration mechanism
09:49:40 [OliverD]
... a way for the service page to anounce that something has changed
09:49:50 [OliverD]
... currently this is not handled
09:50:21 [OliverD]
Josh_Soref: Automated phone systems ofen tell you they have changed their options
09:50:35 [OliverD]
... this is not that helpful, it's usualy just annoying
09:51:02 [OliverD]
... if a site really wants to change it's behaviour it can do so at a new url
09:51:17 [OliverD]
s/it's/its/
09:51:37 [OliverD]
Josh_Soref: we can stick this into best practice
09:52:29 [fjh]
proposal to create best practice for web intent, e.g to change service details, cause error on page, use new url
09:52:31 [OliverD]
q- my, poor
09:54:11 [darobin]
take the main shopping street (with the red keys) then second right then third left
09:54:20 [OliverD]
Topic: Dinner plans
09:54:29 [OliverD]
[ Deepanshu explains where we're going tonight ]
09:54:38 [OliverD]
[ We depart at 6:15pm from this room ]
09:54:40 [darobin]
in Room III on 2nd floor at 1815
09:54:41 [fjh]
Topic: Recess
09:55:23 [darobin]
ok, good!
09:55:41 [darobin]
richt: try to catch up with us rather than walk it on your own — you could possibly get lost :)
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rrsagent, generate minutes
13:53:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-dap-minutes.html fjh
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