IRC log of html-wg on 2012-03-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:04:30 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-wg
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/15-html-wg-irc
16:04:32 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:04:34 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be html_wg
16:04:34 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
16:04:35 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
16:04:35 [trackbot]
Date: 15 March 2012
16:04:51 [adrianba]
TOPIC: ACTION items due by Thursday, March 15
16:04:59 [adrianba]
mjs: there are none
16:05:08 [adrianba]
TOPIC: New Issues This Week
16:05:20 [adrianba]
mjs: there are none - there is still a trackerrequest for a post-LC bug
16:05:27 [adrianba]
TOPIC: Items Closed Last Week
16:05:37 [adrianba]
ISSUE-170?
16:05:37 [trackbot]
ISSUE-170 -- make URIs valid link relations -- open
16:05:37 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/170
16:05:45 [adrianba]
ISSUE-192?
16:05:46 [trackbot]
ISSUE-192 -- title attribute definition does not match reality -- open
16:05:46 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/192
16:05:55 [adrianba]
ISSUE-204?
16:05:55 [trackbot]
ISSUE-204 -- Exempt ARIA attributes from the rule that prohibits reference to hidden elements -- open
16:05:55 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/204
16:06:01 [adrianba]
ScribeNick: adrianba
16:06:16 [adrianba]
mjs: for 204 we received a proposal and counter proposal
16:06:21 [adrianba]
TOPIC: Items Closing This Week
16:06:25 [adrianba]
ISSUE-187?
16:06:25 [trackbot]
ISSUE-187 -- Document conformance has to be stable over the time -- open
16:06:25 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/187
16:06:38 [adrianba]
mjs: proposal for amicable resolution - only one proposal remains
16:06:42 [adrianba]
... closed with no objections
16:06:48 [adrianba]
ISSUE-80?
16:06:48 [trackbot]
ISSUE-80 -- document conformance and device dependent display of title attribute content -- open
16:06:48 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/80
16:07:01 [adrianba]
mjs: did not receive a counter proposal so likely to go to CfC soon
16:07:05 [adrianba]
ISSUE-131?
16:07:05 [trackbot]
ISSUE-131 -- Should we add a caret location API to canvas, or is the focus API sufficient? -- open
16:07:05 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/131
16:07:10 [adrianba]
ISSUE-158?
16:07:10 [trackbot]
ISSUE-158 -- HTML4's content-model for <object> should continue -- open
16:07:10 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/158
16:07:19 [Zakim]
+hober
16:07:25 [adrianba]
ISSUE-205?
16:07:25 [trackbot]
ISSUE-205 -- Define what author guidance and/or methods should be provided to those that wish to create accessible text editors using canvas as a rendering surface. -- open
16:07:25 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/205
16:07:33 [adrianba]
ISSUE-179?
16:07:33 [trackbot]
ISSUE-179 -- {audio,video} require param child (or equivalent) -- open
16:07:33 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/179
16:07:52 [Zakim]
+??P8
16:07:56 [adrianba]
mjs: call for amicable resolution closes mar 15 - only single change proposal remains
16:08:08 [adrianba]
TOPIC: Items Closing Next Week
16:08:12 [adrianba]
ISSUE-193?
16:08:12 [trackbot]
ISSUE-193 -- Remove CSS example that promotes inaccessible content -- open
16:08:12 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/193
16:08:18 [adrianba]
ISSUE-194?
16:08:18 [trackbot]
ISSUE-194 -- Provide a mechanism for associating a full transcript with an audio or video element. -- open
16:08:18 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/194
16:08:23 [adrianba]
ISSUE-195?
16:08:23 [trackbot]
ISSUE-195 -- Enhance http request generation from forms -- open
16:08:23 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/195
16:08:30 [adrianba]
ISSUE-196?
16:08:30 [trackbot]
ISSUE-196 -- Define user agent http response handling behaviour -- open
16:08:30 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/196
16:08:40 [adrianba]
ISSUE-197?
16:08:41 [trackbot]
ISSUE-197 -- Accept attribute should allow file extensions in addition to the current allowed values -- open
16:08:41 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/197
16:08:46 [adrianba]
ISSUE-199?
16:08:46 [trackbot]
ISSUE-199 -- Define complete processing requirements for ARIA attributes -- open
16:08:46 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/199
16:09:01 [Stevef]
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16:09:05 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, call mike
16:09:05 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:09:05 [adrianba]
ISSUE-201?
16:09:05 [trackbot]
ISSUE-201 -- Provide canvas location and hit testing capability to fallback content -- open
16:09:05 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/201
16:09:07 [Zakim]
+Mike
16:09:13 [adrianba]
ISSUE-190?
16:09:13 [trackbot]
ISSUE-190 -- Replace poor coding example for figure with multiple images -- open
16:09:13 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/190
16:09:27 [adrianba]
TOPIC: New Calls this week
16:09:33 [adrianba]
mjs: there are none
16:09:36 [adrianba]
TOPIC: New Surveys this week
16:09:40 [adrianba]
mjs: there are none
16:09:44 [adrianba]
TOPIC: Decisions this week
16:09:47 [adrianba]
mjs: also none
16:09:51 [adrianba]
TOPIC: Other Business
16:10:05 [MikeSmith]
for the record mikeSmith is on the cal
16:10:14 [MikeSmith]
*call
16:10:14 [adrianba]
mjs: several other topics to discuss
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16:10:31 [MikeSmith]
q?
16:10:54 [adrianba]
... first CfC to publish heartbeat drafts - there were 2 objections but we believe the correct thing to do is to proceed over those objections - this is a WD and does not require consensus
16:11:09 [adrianba]
... working out how to get these published
16:11:14 [MikeSmith]
q+ to talk
16:11:40 [paulc]
The Chairs decision on the heartbeat publication is in: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Mar/0221.html
16:11:42 [adrianba]
MikeSmith: we had some private discussions about the publications
16:11:47 [Zakim]
-glenn
16:11:56 [adrianba]
... the chairs were asking me as team contact for the WG to prepare the WDs
16:12:02 [adrianba]
... for publication today
16:12:08 [adrianba]
... i spent a lot of time doing that
16:12:09 [Zakim]
+??P0
16:12:18 [glenn]
zakim, ??p0 is glenn
16:12:18 [Zakim]
+glenn; got it
16:12:18 [Zakim]
+Plh
16:12:23 [adrianba]
... but we had some disagreement about two issues
16:12:43 [adrianba]
... around Hixie spec'ing out the behaviour for dialog element
16:13:03 [adrianba]
... change proposal open for 3 months or more
16:13:10 [adrianba]
... all agree that we need to add that
16:13:20 [adrianba]
... second is for allow-popups on iframe sandbox
16:13:37 [adrianba]
... again no disagreement because webkit and IE are already implementing support for that feature
16:13:48 [adrianba]
... don't have much choice but to spec the behaviour that is implemented
16:14:02 [adrianba]
... we don't have the spec for that behaviour because the implementers didn't provide a spec for it
16:14:15 [adrianba]
... and expect that Hixie is supposed to reverse engineer their implementation
16:14:37 [adrianba]
... I think that that is a significant amount of work - not a matter of adding a paragraph of spec text
16:14:40 [janina]
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16:14:53 [adrianba]
... requires testing and attempting to document what they implemented
16:15:04 [Zakim]
+??P11
16:15:11 [adrianba]
... that's a significant amount of work
16:15:12 [janina]
zakim, P11 is Janina
16:15:12 [Zakim]
sorry, janina, I do not recognize a party named 'P11'
16:15:34 [adrianba]
... WG has decided the spec should include a feature but not assessed the amount of work involved
16:15:55 [adrianba]
... we can't do that and publish today or a week from now
16:15:58 [janina]
zakim, ??P11 is Janina
16:15:58 [Zakim]
+Janina; got it
16:16:09 [adrianba]
... we have to decide when to publish with that
16:16:28 [adrianba]
... same with dialog - CP is not sufficient for implementers to add the dialog in their browsers
16:16:46 [adrianba]
... so there's a large amount of additional work required to implement those decisions
16:16:54 [adrianba]
... it's not going to happen in a week or two weeks
16:17:20 [adrianba]
... not sure how much time it will take to do this given the other work such as canvas Path work
16:17:37 [adrianba]
... i would love to be able to give a date when we can do that
16:17:39 [paulc]
The Chairs are planning to meet after this meeting to discuss this status from Mike.
16:17:42 [adrianba]
... but i can't
16:18:22 [adrianba]
... we have the heartbeat obligation to publish at 3 months and we have the obligation from the decision policy that the editor gets something done in time for us to publish an updated WD along with everything else
16:18:32 [adrianba]
... such as the open accessibility issues
16:18:57 [adrianba]
... i suggest we go ahead and publish without these 2 issues resolved
16:18:58 [adrianba]
q+
16:19:04 [adrianba]
ack MikeSmith
16:19:04 [Zakim]
MikeSmith, you wanted to talk
16:19:18 [adrianba]
... i think dialog is a HTML.next feature
16:19:24 [mjs]
q+
16:19:34 [adrianba]
... i don't think anyone is demanding that we implement dialog for HTML5
16:19:40 [adrianba]
... do we need it for stable HTML5?
16:19:43 [paulc]
q+
16:19:55 [adrianba]
... same thing could be said for allow-popups
16:20:23 [adrianba]
... i don't think this needs to be done in the next 2 months - could be pushed off to the next version of HTML
16:20:52 [adrianba]
... in the meantime we have w3c obligation to publish at regular intervals and we've neglected that for last 6 months or more
16:21:18 [adrianba]
... could still publish WD with lack of dialog and sandbox allow-popups noted as known issues
16:21:28 [adrianba]
... i think holding up publication is a bad idea
16:21:43 [MikeSmith]
q?
16:21:45 [adrianba]
mjs: like other people to comment
16:22:09 [adrianba]
... chairs need to decide if we publish today without these changes or wait
16:22:19 [adrianba]
... would like to hear input
16:22:28 [Stevef]
q+
16:22:35 [mjs]
ack adrianba
16:23:21 [MikeSmith]
q+ to respond to adrian
16:23:26 [mjs]
ack mjs
16:23:38 [adrianba]
adrianba: i don't recall seeing a request for more information about the allow-popup sandbox proposal
16:24:04 [adrianba]
mjs: i talked to edward about the dialog proposal and i believe he would prefer to see publication without that for the time being
16:24:36 [mark]
mark has joined #html-wg
16:24:48 [adrianba]
edward: the details missing that prevent the editor completing it are waiting for info from the css wg - i think in the interest of getting heartbeat doc out i'm in favour of publishing
16:24:53 [mjs]
ack paulc
16:25:14 [MikeSmith]
q+ to say that the current dialog from proposal from ted+hixie is not fully implementable as specified due to ambiguity in the CP
16:25:30 [adrianba]
paulc: the chairs have a meeting scheduled after this call to discuss this matter
16:25:50 [adrianba]
... none of the points that mike or ted raised are blocking
16:26:05 [adrianba]
... to tell us after this time that there is a need for more information is a problem
16:26:11 [adrianba]
... suggest we move off this topic and move on
16:26:20 [mjs]
ack Stevef
16:26:57 [adrianba]
SteveF: i can't speak to the popup stuff
16:27:21 [adrianba]
... i think we should publish the heartbeat but i disagree that this should be pushed off with no timeframe to html.next - would like to see in html5
16:27:24 [wcarr]
q+
16:27:27 [mjs]
ack MikeSmith
16:27:27 [Zakim]
MikeSmith, you wanted to respond to adrian and to say that the current dialog from proposal from ted+hixie is not fully implementable as specified due to ambiguity in the CP
16:27:31 [adrianba]
s/this should/dialog should/
16:28:17 [adrianba]
MikeSmith: the current proposal from ted which was put forward in good faith ironically is not sufficient for dialog
16:28:28 [adrianba]
... there are issues around how do we make this work with full screen for example
16:28:41 [paulc]
q+
16:28:49 [mjs]
q+
16:28:53 [adrianba]
... this is a proposed feature in the platform and we need to make it work with dialog
16:28:59 [adrianba]
... and a number of other features
16:29:07 [adrianba]
... that is blocking for dialog
16:29:27 [adrianba]
... that's a considerable amount of work
16:29:35 [anne]
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16:31:08 [paulc]
I disagree with Mike's assertion that we cannot implement <dialog> due to the need to integrate with another feature. We should implement and then file bugs to gain that alignment.
16:31:12 [mjs]
ack
16:31:20 [mjs]
ack wcarr
16:32:05 [adrianba]
wcarr: i hope we publish heartbeats as soon as possible and more quickly so they're not behind the ED
16:32:17 [mjs]
ack paulc
16:32:24 [adrianba]
... if we did it more quickly issues like this wouldn't be so important because another would be along within 6 weeks or so
16:33:00 [adrianba]
paulc: i disagree strongly with Mike that we can't implement a WG decision because some people think we need to decide how to solve the problem with another immature spec
16:33:14 [adrianba]
... if people think there's a problem becuase it isn't aligned with another feature then they should file bugs
16:33:20 [mjs]
ack mjs
16:33:23 [adrianba]
... but to say we shouldn't move forward is inappropriate
16:33:37 [MikeSmith]
q+ to say that many WG decisions are not implentable
16:34:00 [adrianba]
mjs: Mike and Ted , you mentioned some issues and Mike you've probably had conversations with Ian about clarifications
16:34:24 [adrianba]
... if you think there are things needing clarification please get it onto the mailing list because people may be able to provide information
16:34:36 [MikeSmith]
q?
16:34:39 [adrianba]
... i encourage you to communicate those to the group as a whole
16:34:42 [Stevef]
q+
16:34:52 [mjs]
ack MikeSmith
16:34:52 [Zakim]
MikeSmith, you wanted to say that many WG decisions are not implentable
16:35:37 [adrianba]
MikeSmith: as far as WG decisions being implementable i can say as someone who has made a good faith attempt to implement a decision that the CP often do not contain sufficient detail in order to implement anything unambiguously
16:36:22 [adrianba]
... for example, Julian said he intended his proposal to be open-ended about how to make the spec better
16:36:32 [adrianba]
... the CP does not unambigiously document what should be changed
16:36:46 [adrianba]
... chairs agreed that they'll accept the CP because no one objected
16:36:51 [adrianba]
... but it was never implementable
16:37:14 [adrianba]
mjs: this should be something to put in the mailing list
16:37:36 [adrianba]
MikeSmith: please do not put the responsibility on me for this
16:38:15 [adrianba]
mjs: i'm asking for examples on the list and if there are process changes you think would improve things please suggest that
16:38:20 [adrianba]
... please get this in the mailing list
16:38:24 [mjs]
ack Stevef
16:38:26 [adrianba]
MikeSmith: thanks, i will do that
16:38:54 [adrianba]
SteveF: Hixie adds stuff to the spec all the time that is half formed or does not have agreement or consensus
16:39:11 [adrianba]
... we have dialog that has some consensus so i don't see why it can't be added and then the details worked out
16:39:20 [adrianba]
... chairs and the WG needs to work this out
16:39:35 [adrianba]
... think the argument is spurious that it can't be added because it's not complete
16:39:44 [paulc]
+1 to SteveF points
16:39:58 [adrianba]
... menu item for example is in there but hasn't been implemented (except context menu not according to spec)
16:40:06 [adrianba]
... doesn't need to be fully formed to be in the spec
16:40:16 [adrianba]
... not the way Hixie works, why should CPs have to be up to that standard
16:40:32 [adrianba]
mjs: thanks for the input on this topic
16:40:42 [adrianba]
... moving on in the interests of time
16:41:12 [adrianba]
mjs: CfC on the F2F meeting - no objections on coordinated meeting with HTML and WebApps WG in May in Silicon Valley
16:41:19 [adrianba]
... do intend to have interim meeting there
16:41:22 [adrianba]
... any comments?
16:41:41 [adrianba]
paulc: registration page will be available soon
16:41:53 [adrianba]
... possibly today or tomorrow
16:42:04 [adrianba]
ISSUE-183?
16:42:04 [trackbot]
ISSUE-183 -- Enhance and simplify the time element -- open
16:42:04 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/183
16:42:22 [adrianba]
mjs: chairs noted 2 proposals agreed on one aspect, something already in the spec
16:42:36 [adrianba]
... CfC to take that off the table so time wouldn't be spent on something everyone agrees on
16:42:54 [adrianba]
... sent feedback on proposals asking to remove those points and justify everything else
16:43:03 [adrianba]
... change was about time syntax
16:43:31 [adrianba]
mjs: Revert request for http+aes scheme was received
16:43:54 [adrianba]
... several messages of agreement including original proposer - revert completed
16:44:12 [adrianba]
mjs: DST changes - links to email about DST changes
16:44:23 [adrianba]
... W3C telcons are on north american time (US Eastern)
16:44:35 [adrianba]
... your time may change
16:44:44 [adrianba]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Mar/0081.html
16:44:51 [adrianba]
mjs: there is a new weekly summary
16:44:58 [adrianba]
http://www.w3.org/QA/2012/03/openweb-weekly-28.html
16:45:38 [adrianba]
mjs: decisions pending heartbeat drafts - lots of recently closed items that were CfC at various times that chairs haven't published yet
16:45:51 [adrianba]
... may have to reassess that knowing that 2 decisions are not applied yet
16:45:57 [adrianba]
... we have not overlooked them
16:46:51 [adrianba]
ISSUE-164?
16:46:51 [trackbot]
ISSUE-164 -- remove or modify hgroup -- open
16:46:51 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/164
16:46:58 [adrianba]
SteveF: what is the status here?
16:47:02 [mjs]
http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-164
16:47:20 [adrianba]
paulc: this is in my queue to evaluate - there are 5 change proposals
16:47:24 [paulc]
http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-164
16:47:31 [adrianba]
... haven't got to it yet
16:47:47 [adrianba]
... this work is in the chairs input queue to evaluate CPs and it is a work in progress
16:48:14 [adrianba]
TOPIC: Scribe for next meeting
16:48:19 [adrianba]
mjs: volunteers?
16:48:27 [glenn]
i can scribe
16:48:27 [adrianba]
... Sam will chair that meeting
16:48:49 [adrianba]
... thanks glenn
16:48:57 [adrianba]
TOPIC: Adjournment
16:49:05 [adrianba]
mjs: thanks for calling in - see you next week
16:49:06 [Zakim]
-Clarke
16:49:07 [Zakim]
-Joe_Steele
16:49:08 [Zakim]
-Sam
16:49:09 [Zakim]
-Janina
16:49:09 [Zakim]
-Mike
16:49:11 [Zakim]
-Wayne_Carr
16:49:11 [Zakim]
-Plh
16:49:13 [Zakim]
- +1.415.595.aaaa
16:49:13 [Zakim]
-hober
16:49:13 [adrianba]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:49:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/15-html-wg-minutes.html adrianba
16:49:14 [Zakim]
-glenn
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-Radhika_Roy
16:49:22 [adrianba]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:49:22 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
16:49:34 [Zakim]
-adrianba
16:49:41 [Zakim]
-??P8
16:49:42 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft.a]
16:49:44 [Zakim]
HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
16:49:46 [Zakim]
Attendees were glenn, eliot, Radhika_Roy, [Microsoft], adrianba, Joe_Steele, Clarke, Sam, +1.415.595.aaaa, Wayne_Carr, hober, Mike, Plh, Janina
16:49:52 [adrianba]
Scribe: Adrian Bateman
16:50:00 [adrianba]
Chair: Maciej Stachowiak
16:50:08 [adrianba]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2012JanMar/0024.html
16:50:12 [adrianba]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:50:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/15-html-wg-minutes.html adrianba
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