14:59:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:59:29 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/15-html-a11y-irc
14:59:31 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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14:59:33 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
14:59:33 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
14:59:34 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Mar/0172.html
14:59:34 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:59:34 <trackbot> Date: 15 March 2012
14:59:42 <MichaelC> chair: Mike_Smith
14:59:50 <MichaelC> agenda+	Subteam Reports: Text; ARIA Mappings; Canvas; Bug Triage; Media;
14:59:52 <MichaelC> agenda+	HTML WG f2f
14:59:53 <MichaelC> agenda+	Other Business
14:59:55 <MichaelC> agenda+	Identify Scribe for 22 March
15:00:08 <janina> janina has joined #html-a11y
15:01:53 <Judy> Judy has joined #html-a11y
15:02:30 <Judy> zakim, who's here?
15:02:30 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has not yet started, Judy
15:02:30 <Zakim> On IRC I see Judy, janina, Zakim, RRSAgent, davidb, MikeSmith, MichaelC, trackbot, [tm]
15:02:59 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
15:02:59 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:04:44 <MichaelC> zakim, this is 2119
15:04:44 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM
15:05:17 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P18 is Janina_Sajka
15:05:17 <Zakim> +Janina_Sajka; got it
15:08:50 <janina> zakim, who's here?
15:08:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Foliot, Janina_Sajka, Judy, Mike, Cooper
15:08:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see Judy, janina, Zakim, RRSAgent, davidb, MikeSmith, MichaelC, trackbot, [tm]
15:11:05 <janina> scribe: janina
15:11:34 <janina> We're small attendance, so meeting will be short, but there's a report from Text Subteam that we will take ...
15:12:40 <Judy> Resumed meeting this Tuesday, March 13th, 1pm EDT
15:12:40 <Judy> http://www.w3.org/2012/03/13-text-minutes.html
15:12:40 <Judy> 1. Mainly discussed an update on the PFWG ARIA TF F2F MTG last week, including implications regarding longdesc and issue 204, which concerns whether ARIA should be able to point to hidden content
15:12:40 <Judy> - PFWG concluded nothing in 204 that would make describedBY an acceptable alternative for longdesc
15:12:40 <Judy> - We noted that this mechanism may be otherwise useful, but would become dangerous at the point that it is combined with tab order focus.
15:12:43 <Judy> - ARIA documentation clarifications in progress; or now done
15:12:45 <Judy> 2. Continued concern that the question on longdesc still needs a fair hearing, and that the question is recycling extensively but has not actually been called.
15:12:48 <Judy> 3. Brief discussion of some possibilities for updating the CP on meta name-generator
15:14:04 <janina> Judy: Remider to people of the ongoing meeting time for Text, it's Tuesdays at 1PM Boston
15:15:19 <Judy> q+ John
15:16:29 <Zakim> -John_Foliot
15:16:41 <Judy> zakim, who's making noise?
15:16:52 <Zakim> Judy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Janina_Sajka (4%), Judy (57%), Mike (53%)
15:17:07 <Zakim> +John_Foliot
15:17:12 <Zakim> -Mike
15:17:13 <janina> Mike, if you're talking, we're hearing science-fictiony noise
15:17:19 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
15:17:19 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:17:21 <Zakim> +Mike
15:17:52 <janina> We're good now ...
15:18:10 <janina> john: I have submitted a CP on 204
15:18:43 <janina> john: Also have ongoing thread with Rich to make certain that my statements are factually correct
15:19:44 <Zakim> -John_Foliot
15:19:44 <janina> mike: OK, unsure of where we are on the agenda ... ...
15:20:33 <Zakim> +John_Foliot
15:20:38 <janina> mike: Also wanted to get Canvas update today, but no Rich
15:21:17 <janina> mike: Anything else to add re text alternatives on this call today?
15:21:51 <janina> judy: Expect that Text Subteam will need to continue to be extremely active given issues still unresolved
15:22:09 <janina> judy: These will also take considerable work
15:22:24 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
15:22:37 <janina> john: Also want to note Issue-203 which has some dependencies on text alternatives
15:23:21 <janina> john: Noting this was rejected -- noting that it can't be resolved because it's dependencies are unresolved
15:23:31 <janina> john: Just want to note that on record
15:23:42 <janina> mike: I see that, unsure what the TF can do at this point
15:23:43 <Judy> q+
15:24:02 <Zakim> +Rich
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15:25:08 <janina> mike: The TF isn't an individual entity in the WG process that puts proposals, unlike what individuals do in that respect
15:25:22 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
15:25:30 <Zakim> -Mike
15:25:34 <paulc> zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
15:25:34 <Zakim> +paulc; got it
15:25:40 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
15:25:40 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:25:41 <Zakim> +Mike
15:25:52 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
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15:26:54 <janina> mike: In response to John I'm still unclear what the TF's next step would be
15:27:17 <janina> john: This is how I see it, the CP outlines requirements and dependencies,
15:27:40 <janina> john: If that's to remain rejected, I guess the appeal is the remaining option, though not my preference
15:28:11 <janina> john: The point of the CP(and the Issue) was to make certain key functionality was not lost
15:28:13 <MichaelC> zakim, IPcaller is Steve_Faulkner
15:28:13 <Zakim> +Steve_Faulkner; got it
15:28:57 <MikeSmith> q?
15:28:59 <MichaelC> q?
15:29:06 <MikeSmith> ack john
15:29:07 <janina> john: It's inaction from the CHTML Chairs on Issue-30 that blocks proper action on these other issues ...
15:29:23 <MichaelC> ack j
15:29:23 <janina> judy: Want to first speak to John's concern on 203 ...
15:30:16 <janina> judy: I would note I came across a similar conundrum working on a Fig-Caption Word Count proposal ...
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15:32:03 <janina> judy: Mike, I'm also somewhat confused by what I thought I heard you saying ...
15:32:18 <janina> judy: Were you saying the TF doesn't put proposals to the WG?
15:32:23 <janina> Mike: Exactly what I'm saying.
15:32:56 <janina> mike: For instance, no TF "account" for TF opinions, only individual
15:33:26 <janina> judy: In terms of WBS, sure, but proposing positions was a core reason for TF
15:33:47 <janina> mike: We've never definitively taken position from the TF on longdesc
15:33:53 <Judy> q+
15:34:26 <janina> judy: There has indeed been a TF resolution on longdesc, the Laura proposal is a TF supported
15:35:19 <janina> mike: I haven't taken a position, have not endorsed one, so if there's supposedly such a position, there's something wrong here
15:35:32 <janina> mike: I'm aware there are individuals that do not endorrse
15:36:42 <janina> janina: There definitely was -- a resolution on the call and the follow up email consensus call
15:37:44 <janina> mike: Want to hear current state on Canvas -- to move on ...
15:38:53 <janina> rich: So, I've been working with Ian providing requirements and use cases
15:39:06 <janina> rich: I don't know everything a11y needs is there, need to look forward
15:39:20 <janina> rich: My initial reaction is that it may be a bit more heavyweight than needed
15:39:29 <Judy> q+
15:39:43 <janina> rich: What I'm hearing inside of IBM from people using canvas is that it's much lighterweight than SVG
15:40:15 <janina> rich: With Canvas we don't need an element for everything drawn
15:40:40 <janina> rich: Don't know who wins on that, but I know I need to look further on Ian's latest
15:41:17 <janina> rich: Mike, do you know whether Ian has vetted this with app developers?
15:41:25 <janina> mike: That is a key question ...
15:42:25 <janina> mike: would not want this to end up as different browser implementations
15:42:28 <janina> rich: agree
15:42:58 <Judy> q-
15:44:00 <Stevef> q+
15:44:02 <janina> mike: We have the situation of a large enterprise being able to implement, butneed also to enable the small shop and individual author to implement
15:44:16 <janina> mike: Frank's proposal looks much simpler to me from that perspective
15:44:25 <janina> irhc; I also don't know the answer to that at this point
15:44:49 <janina> rich: At one point the proposals were missing the ability to clear the path, for instance
15:45:00 <janina> rich: This was missing in Frank's, don't yet know about Ian's
15:45:25 <janina> rich: But I think the most important feedback needs to be from app devs
15:46:06 <janina> mike: Don't know for sure, but suspect there might not have been much feedback from devs on Ian's current proposal
15:46:14 <janina> mike: that kind of feedback does take time
15:46:55 <janina> rich: IBM is definitely looking at canvas vs SVG because of our apps in data analytics
15:47:15 <janina> rich: I know people think we're doing a rich text editor because I talk about that, but it's actually data analytics for us
15:49:04 <janina> rich: Also, WebGL is built on HTML canvas
15:51:03 <janina> mike: There's a close mapping between canvas and the way native desktop apps work in many, many cases today
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15:51:51 <janina> mike: we may disagree on whether creating text editing is appropriate or not
15:52:01 <janina> mike: but it is possible to do that
15:52:10 <janina> mike: in the end, everything is a bit map
15:52:46 <janina> rich: So, from this perspective, the a11y support is deep experience for us because we've done this all before with Windows (and other GUI)
15:52:52 <Stevef> FYI more canvas YUI http://fohr.github.com/blossom/
15:53:06 <janina> paul: Problem here is that we have a close date for proposals and Ian hasn't submitted one yet
15:54:00 <janina> paul: Regardless of what Ian may have put into the spec, there's no counter proposal
15:54:14 <janina> paul: We're missing a cp for what Ian has added into the spec -- and that's a problem
15:54:35 <janina> paul: it's unobvious how much overlap between Frank's cp and what Ian has put into the spec
15:54:47 <janina> paul: I believe that's what Rich is saying he needs to look into
15:55:09 <janina> rich: I'm unsure of what has changed, there's no diff
15:55:40 <janina> paul: So, whether heyavy or light weight, I'm concerned that it's unobvious how much overlap
15:55:51 <janina> paul: And secondly that there's also no CP
15:55:53 <Stevef> richardschwerdtfe: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker
15:56:27 <janina> rich: Could Ian be asked for a CP?
15:56:37 <janina> paul: Any wg member can do that ...
15:58:07 <janina> mike: So this is tantamount to asking him to respond to Bugs yet defend the changes in the spec
15:58:41 <janina> paul: More importantly, in this particular case there's no association with a bug this time
15:58:50 <janina> rich: Yes, he didn't follow any kind of process here
15:59:03 <janina> mike: There are many changes he makes that aren't responsive to particular bugs
15:59:33 <janina> paul: My point is simply that there's no corelation here to any particular bug
16:00:15 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:00:21 <janina> mike: Speaking from an editor's perspective, sometimes one needs to make a judgement call ...
16:00:58 <janina> mike: I think what we need at this point re Ian's path changes is an assessment whether these are in line with our requirements
16:01:10 <janina> rich: Can try to look at that, but it's hard without a diff or a CP
16:01:27 <janina> rich: It's particular time consuming to reverse engineer this
16:02:18 <janina> rich: Mike, do you know whether the HTML Chairs have reviewed Frank's proposal? The others that went in
16:02:44 <janina> mike: They have a process, first step being a comment on whether the CPs are "well formed"
16:03:07 <janina> mike: Sometimes this takes time -- along time
16:04:35 <janina> mike: I would ask that we try to have a qualitative assessment on Frank vs Ian's proposals by next week ...
16:05:02 <Stevef> richardscherdtfe: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Canvas lists what hixies been adding
16:05:47 <janina> rich: I'll do my best, noting that there's a lot to look at here and many of us have a back log of work given recent travel and conference meetings
16:06:19 <janina> mike: If not by next week, can we say two weeks from now?
16:06:53 <janina> Steve: There's some helpful info on the WHAT Wiki page ...
16:07:10 <Zakim> -Steve_Faulkner
16:07:15 <janina> mike: Do want to ask for scribe for next week, anyone?
16:07:31 <janina> mike: Silence, unfortunately!
16:07:38 <janina> mike: I'll do it if no other volunteer
16:08:06 <janina> john: If I'm working from home, I'll do so, or back up the scribing
16:08:24 <Zakim> -Rich
16:08:26 <janina> mike: Any objections to adjournment at this time?
16:08:31 <janina> [no objections]
16:08:44 <Zakim> -John_Foliot
16:08:45 <Zakim> -Mike
16:08:47 <janina> zakim, bye
16:08:47 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were John_Foliot, Judy, Mike, Cooper, Janina_Sajka, Rich, paulc, Steve_Faulkner
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16:09:04 <janina> rrsagent, make log public
16:09:11 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
16:09:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/15-html-a11y-minutes.html janina
16:11:42 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
16:11:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/15-html-a11y-minutes.html janina
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