14:55:03 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webtv
14:55:03 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/12-webtv-irc
14:55:16 <kaz> zakim, call kazuyuki-617
14:55:16 <Zakim> ok, kaz; the call is being made
14:55:17 <Zakim> WEBT_Profile()11:00AM has now started
14:55:18 <Zakim> +Kazuyuki
14:58:02 <JanL> JanL has joined #webtv
14:59:13 <yosuke> yosuke has joined #webtv
14:59:16 <kaz> hi
14:59:21 <yosuke> hi
14:59:23 <glenn> glenn has joined #webtv
14:59:35 <giuseppe> giuseppe has joined #webtv
14:59:53 <kaz> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-and-tv/2012Mar/0019.html
14:59:57 <giuseppe> hi call, just diling now
15:00:12 <Zakim> +??P12
15:00:23 <kaz> zakim, ??P12 is giusepe
15:00:23 <Zakim> +giusepe; got it
15:00:29 <Zakim> +??P16
15:00:32 <kaz> zakim, giusepe is giuseppe
15:00:32 <Zakim> +giuseppe; got it
15:00:36 <glenn> zakim, what is code?
15:00:36 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, glenn.
15:00:40 <kaz> zakim, ??P16 is Clarke
15:00:40 <Zakim> +Clarke; got it
15:00:50 <kaz> zakime, code?
15:01:11 <glenn> zakim, code?
15:01:11 <Zakim> the conference code is 93288 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glenn
15:01:23 <Juhani> Juhani has joined #webtv
15:01:25 <giuseppe> conf details can also be found on the wiki
15:01:42 <Zakim> +??P14
15:01:52 <glenn> zakim, ??p14 is glenn
15:01:52 <Zakim> +glenn; got it
15:01:53 <giuseppe> http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/Profile/Telco
15:02:28 <Zakim> + +358.405.81aaaa
15:02:36 <kaz> zakim, aaaa is Juhani
15:02:36 <Zakim> +Juhani; got it
15:03:26 <kaz> zakim, who is here?
15:03:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see Kazuyuki, giuseppe, Clarke, glenn, Juhani
15:03:27 <Zakim> On IRC I see Juhani, giuseppe, glenn, yosuke, JanL, RRSAgent, Zakim, kaz, masao, trackbot
15:03:34 <Zakim> +Jan_Lindquist
15:03:45 <Zakim> +??P27
15:03:56 <glenn> zakim, pick a victim
15:03:56 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ??P27
15:04:19 <kaz> zakim, ??P27 is Yosuke
15:04:19 <Zakim> +Yosuke; got it
15:04:54 <giuseppe> zakim, pick a victim
15:04:54 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose giuseppe
15:05:01 <Clarke> Clarke has joined #webtv
15:05:23 <Clarke> Scribe: Clarke
15:05:30 <giuseppe> Chair: Giuseppe
15:05:44 <kaz> Meeting: TV Profile Teleconference
15:05:52 <Clarke> Topic: Liaison with OIPF
15:06:10 <Clarke> Opent IPTV Forum
15:06:36 <Clarke> giuseppe: open networks and managed network deployments
15:06:55 <kaz> Present: Kazuyuki, giuseppe, Clarke, glenn, Juhani, Jan_Lindquist, Yosuke
15:07:22 <Clarke> ...how to properly reference mostly WIP sources
15:07:39 <kaz> q+
15:07:40 <Clarke> ...How have other organizations addressed this problem
15:07:54 <Clarke> ...They are asking us for advice
15:08:07 <Clarke> ...a) reference specific version with date
15:08:26 <Clarke> ...Means regular review and update. This is a bit messy
15:08:42 <Clarke> ...b) reference current draft without a date
15:08:53 <Clarke> ...need to define a way of working to minimize changes
15:09:10 <Clarke> ...c) only reference proposed recommendation
15:09:33 <Clarke> ...d) delay any work until specs are at proposed recommendations level
15:09:42 <kaz> -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-web-and-tv/2012Mar/att-0000/___Q_OIPF-AOL-SOL-227-R02-Liaison_5Fletter_5Fto_5FW3C_5Fon_5Fspecification_5Freferencing.PDF__ liaison letter (member-only)
15:09:50 <Clarke> ...e) reference latest version and decide which version to use later
15:10:13 <Clarke> ...f) define some profile that can be referenced directly and keep track of change
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15:10:28 <Clarke> ...g) automatically use latest version available at time of publication
15:10:44 <Clarke> ...h) any other option?
15:11:17 <Clarke> ...Looking at 2D transforms, 3D transforms, HTML5 canvas, CSS changes
15:11:34 <Clarke> ...Good to get feedback firsthand in this group
15:12:02 <Clarke> ...want to also get this out to other groups (e.g. process group)
15:12:05 <Zakim> +David_Corvoysier
15:12:09 <Clarke> ...floor open for comments
15:12:10 <kaz> q?
15:12:50 <kaz> ack k
15:12:52 <Clarke> ...Kaz mentioned this problem with other specs.
15:12:58 <kaz> -> http://idpf.org/epub/30/spec/epub30-overview.html#references EPUB 3
15:13:07 <Clarke> Kaz: There is a similar case in EPUB 3
15:13:21 <Clarke> ...They used undated URL
15:13:37 <Clarke> ...This is a working draft specification
15:13:51 <Clarke> ...They need to change their URL if this changes
15:13:57 <kaz> -> http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source.html#geolocation_interface Geolocation spec
15:14:07 <Clarke> ...Geolocation is another examples
15:15:07 <Clarke> ...Even though HTML5 spec is not stable, they will add note within spec
15:15:18 <glenn> q+
15:15:39 <Clarke> ...The HTML5 spec will let them know when features are stable
15:16:13 <Clarke> ...Geolocation also refers to WEB IDL
15:16:35 <Clarke> ...They need to change the reference to WEB IDL - which has changed a bit
15:16:47 <Clarke> ...Each section might change
15:17:04 <Clarke> giuseppe: one option is to use the section name rather than number
15:17:35 <JanL> JanL has joined #webtv
15:17:37 <Clarke> kaz: it requires HTML5 or CSS3 editors to use name rather than number references
15:17:50 <Clarke> giuseppe: glen on queue
15:17:51 <giuseppe> ack
15:17:53 <kaz> q?
15:17:56 <Clarke> glen: a couple comments
15:17:57 <kaz> ack g
15:18:20 <Clarke> ...the official language on status of these documents specifies inappropriate to refer to these other than as WIP
15:18:33 <Clarke> ...need to put WIP somewhere in reference
15:19:16 <Clarke> ...in the case of EPUB, the URLs are generic PR+shortname reference that would not be required to change
15:19:23 <kaz> s/PR/TR/
15:19:36 <Clarke> ...would not anticipate process committee changing this requirement
15:19:58 <Clarke> ...before doc is in CR stage it is questionable whether it should be referenced at all
15:20:16 <Clarke> ...unlikely to get consensus on what "stable" means.
15:20:30 <Clarke> ...I would expect significant changes to HTML before PR status
15:20:40 <Dewa> Dewa has joined #webtv
15:21:03 <Clarke> giuseppe: People have different opinions, but useful to collect examples of how others are handing the problem
15:21:17 <Clarke> ...we can collect a few of the best options.
15:21:31 <Clarke> ...could probably reduce the scope to a few possiblities
15:21:36 <yosuke> s/handing/handling/
15:21:39 <Clarke> glen: I would also follow up
15:21:49 <Clarke> ...in a recent interview with Jaffe
15:21:52 <kaz> s/glen:/glenn:/
15:22:03 <Clarke> ...changes to accelerate the standards process
15:22:15 <Clarke> ...they should be looking at this problem and formulating policy
15:22:28 <Clarke> ...we should pass any input we collect on to them
15:22:29 <corvoysier> http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-57390399-264/jeff-jaffe-lights-a-fire-under-web-standardization/
15:22:55 <Clarke> giuseppe: it's going through us because the liaison was established through us
15:23:17 <kaz> present: Kazuyuki, giuseppe, Clarke, glenn, Juhani, Jan_Lindquist, Yosuke, David_Corvoysier
15:23:25 <Clarke> glen: I'm working with one standards group that decided to indirectly reference them through html5 specification
15:23:33 <kaz> s/glen:/glenn:/
15:23:35 <Clarke> ...This in turn has references to other specs
15:23:51 <Clarke> ...this reduced the number of open ended references
15:24:02 <glenn> ack me
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15:24:20 <Clarke> giuseppe: Will be an issue solved for basic DOM and some other areas.
15:24:28 <Clarke> ...any other opinions?
15:25:03 <Clarke> jan: Really appreciate the insight that drafts should be consistently referenced
15:25:18 <Clarke> ...That will help external bodies do references
15:25:43 <glenn> link on Jeff Jaffe discussing accelerating process et al
15:25:44 <glenn> -> http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-57390399-264/jeff-jaffe-lights-a-fire-under-web-standardization/
15:25:48 <Clarke> giuseppe: We can run this through w3c management again before responding to OIPF
15:25:55 <kaz> q+
15:25:57 <Clarke> ...I will draft first letter to them
15:26:13 <Clarke> kaz: thanks for the proposal
15:26:35 <Clarke> ...suggest we include PLH and ?
15:26:39 <kaz> ack k
15:26:43 <Clarke> thx
15:26:51 <kaz> s/?/Ralph/
15:27:10 <Clarke> giuseppe: people can replay on the list if they agree with my conclusions
15:27:25 <Clarke> ...next point
15:27:26 <kaz> s/replay/reply/
15:27:40 <Clarke> giuseppe: only thing we have agreed on is the name
15:28:11 <Clarke> ...I created the online document
15:28:16 <kaz> i/only thing/Profiling criteria/
15:28:27 <kaz> s/Profiling/topic: Profiling/
15:28:49 <kaz> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-and-tv/2012Feb/0055.html Giuseppe's proposal
15:28:50 <Clarke> ...it was interesting to get feedback on what should be included in Profiling docuemnt
15:29:07 <kaz> s/...it/giuseppe: it/
15:29:31 <glenn> q+
15:29:53 <Clarke> ...how do we address specs with overlapping topics
15:30:19 <Clarke> ...Should we include profiles for different conditions
15:30:28 <Clarke> ...Any feedback on any of these points?
15:30:42 <glenn> ack g
15:30:45 <Clarke> glenn: if we try to consider individual features, we will never reach closure
15:31:45 <Clarke> giuseppe: probably one way forward is to have some consideration inside specs on whether they are stable (especially important if various features are stable and not stage)
15:32:11 <Clarke> glenn: try to create a fuzzy document that is more generic in areas of technology defined by W3C 
15:32:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/12-webtv-minutes.html kaz
15:32:32 <Clarke> ...should divide the idea of a profile into generic (abstract) and concrete
15:32:43 <Clarke> ...concrete may specify individual features
15:33:04 <Clarke> ...abstract can specify more general featues
15:33:21 <Clarke> ...may be useful to try to get consensus on an abstract profile
15:33:44 <Clarke> giuseppe: I suggested "meta" profile. Maybe that is the same idea
15:33:52 <glenn> if we can't reach a consensus on an abstract profile, we'll never conclude on a concrete profile
15:34:00 <Clarke> ...any other opinions on this?
15:35:15 <Clarke> ...for the reference itself, I used a TR version (current approach). Other options include editor draft
15:35:37 <Clarke> jan: if we have abstract list of requirements, how do we deal with that over time?
15:35:55 <Clarke> ...is this a continuously updating reference?
15:36:08 <Clarke> glenn: I think thats TBD
15:36:29 <Clarke> ...if we define an abstract profile then we could make reference to abstract pages.
15:36:58 <Clarke> ...tr-abstract has "abstract 2010" which references CS level three and other items
15:37:05 <Clarke> ...premature to make conclusion on that yet.
15:37:26 <Clarke> jan: maybe can let it progress
15:37:43 <Clarke> ...then see what is needed. freeze when group decides it is appropriate
15:38:03 <Clarke> giuseppe: 1st step is to try to delimit which technology to use
15:38:32 <Clarke> ...feature testing and performance testing are two important items
15:38:52 <Clarke> ...1) determine if parts are missing
15:39:00 <Clarke> ...2) test performance
15:39:18 <Clarke> ...This is just getting started in W3C. What are best practices?
15:39:22 <glenn> s/tr-abstract/w3.org\/TR\/CSS/
15:39:32 <Clarke> ...could be in scope for profile work
15:39:48 <glenn> s/abstract 2010/CSS Snapshot 2010/
15:40:09 <glenn> s/CS level three/CSS levels 1 through 3/
15:40:26 <Clarke> ...another area that is covered is what to do about areas where HTML5 is providing technology, but relying on external specification
15:41:03 <Clarke> ...should we undertake this topic (e.g. reference to metadata defined elsewhere)
15:41:19 <Clarke> ...trying to understand what we want to put in this profile
15:41:48 <Clarke> corvoysier:
15:41:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/12-webtv-minutes.html kaz
15:41:57 <Clarke> ...anything specific?
15:42:17 <Clarke> giuseppe: in-band tracks is an example
15:42:41 <Clarke> ...details of what is in-band depends on several factors defined elsewhere
15:42:46 <kaz> s|tr-abstract|w3.org/TR/CSS|
15:42:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/12-webtv-minutes.html kaz
15:43:10 <Clarke> ...same information can be exposed differently depending on geographic location or transport method
15:43:18 <kaz> s|tr-abstract|w3.org/TR/CSS|
15:43:20 <Clarke> ...i don't have a concrete proposal yet
15:43:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/12-webtv-minutes.html kaz
15:43:53 <Clarke> ...people need to be aware of the functionality
15:44:54 <Clarke> ...there are different levels we can reach. We should talk to these other organizations.
15:45:17 <Clarke> corvoysier: will need liaisons
15:45:31 <Clarke> giuseppe: I'm talking about work that may not be done yet
15:45:44 <Clarke> ...I will provide more examples later online
15:46:06 <Clarke> ...looking at the agenda again...
15:46:32 <Clarke> glenn: do we have a conclusion on what to call a profile
15:47:03 <Clarke> resolution: title will be Web Media Profile
15:47:37 <Clarke> giuseppe will post on wiki
15:47:37 <giuseppe> sibtitles: Guidelines for integration of interactive media services in a browser-based environment
15:47:51 <kaz> -> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webtv/raw-file/tip/tvprofile/tv.html draft document
15:48:32 <Clarke> topic: CSS specs we may want to reference
15:48:53 <kaz> -> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webtv/raw-file/tip/tvprofile/tv.html draft document
15:48:55 <Clarke> glenn: which list are you referring to?
15:49:09 <giuseppe> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webtv/raw-file/tip/tvprofile/tv.html#css
15:49:11 <Clarke> giuseppe: now just section headings and link. 
15:49:54 <Clarke> glenn: I would not agree to including this particular list
15:50:20 <Clarke> ...in notes it should say that the contents of this section and which specifications are mandatory is under discussion and TBD
15:50:37 <Clarke> ...I'm not sure this is the final list to be supported
15:50:54 <Clarke> ...just to prevent misunderstanding
15:51:03 <Clarke> giuesppe: I will put in a note
15:51:21 <Clarke> ...want to make sure it is relevant for that industry area
15:52:01 <Clarke> glenn: CSS properties only lists CSS 2.0 and not 2.1, Box model not being actively developed, etc.
15:52:02 <Zakim> -Jan_Lindquist
15:52:18 <Clarke> giuseppe: I am working on an update as well
15:52:41 <Clarke> ...to kaz, do we have an update for bugzilla account?
15:52:57 <Clarke> kaz: Looks like it has now been created, I will pass on
15:53:50 <Clarke> glenn: CSS3 referring to high-end typesetting features that may not be relevant. View mode? most everything needs a lot of review and discussion.
15:54:04 <kaz> q+ to mention the response from the main liaison contact (daniel) on OIPF liaison
15:54:11 <Clarke> giuseppe: we have to pinpoint which specs we're interested in
15:54:27 <Clarke> glenn: do we need any references to SMILE?
15:54:47 <kaz> s/SMILE/SMIL/
15:54:55 <Clarke> giuseppe: put links in to provoke reaction so people can react on why they think is relevant
15:55:46 <Clarke> glenn: should support HTML5 and syntax, CSS, DOM4, - that sort of high-level abstraction that may not require mapping to specific spec.
15:56:02 <Clarke> ...raises question: why do it unless it is useful
15:56:17 <Clarke> ...need to choose balance points to make useful
15:56:31 <Clarke> giuseppe: 1st step at specification level
15:56:52 <Clarke> ...need to know what to implement and support
15:57:23 <Clarke> ...I'm open to input and will try to go through this
15:57:27 <kaz> q?
15:57:37 <Clarke> ...participate in list to make your comments known
15:57:48 <Clarke> kaz: another topic
15:58:04 <Zakim> +??P7
15:58:05 <Clarke> ...got comment on how to handle OIPF reference
15:58:27 <Clarke> ...has letter from OIPF 
15:58:57 <Clarke> ...They know of this reference problem and can discuss on mailing list
15:59:08 <kaz> zakim, ??P7 is Dewa
15:59:08 <Zakim> +Dewa; got it
15:59:11 <kaz> present+ Dewa
15:59:29 <Clarke> topic: use case functionality
15:59:45 <Clarke> giuseppe: use the wiki or mailing list to provide your input
16:00:11 <kaz> i/use case/kaz: so I'll forward the liaison letter to the liaison ML, and ask W3C Team mates for opinions/
16:00:12 <Clarke> ...suggestion to do survey of use cases and consider coverage of recent web specs
16:00:26 <Clarke> ...we can do this and use our web space
16:00:34 <Clarke> topic: next call
16:00:59 <Clarke> giuseppe: will continue with monthly call (first monday in general)
16:01:06 <Clarke> ...there is call info on wiki
16:01:12 <Clarke> ...I will send reminder
16:01:16 <Clarke> ...any other business?
16:01:41 <Zakim> -glenn
16:01:42 <Clarke> ...closing call... see you next month
16:01:44 <Zakim> -David_Corvoysier
16:01:46 <Zakim> -Dewa
16:01:47 <Zakim> -Juhani
16:01:48 <Clarke> adjourn:
16:01:53 <Zakim> -Kazuyuki
16:01:54 <Zakim> -Clarke
16:02:00 <Zakim> -giuseppe
16:02:02 <Zakim> -Yosuke
16:02:02 <Zakim> WEBT_Profile()11:00AM has ended
16:02:02 <Zakim> Attendees were Kazuyuki, giuseppe, Clarke, glenn, +358.405.81aaaa, Juhani, Jan_Lindquist, Yosuke, David_Corvoysier, Dewa
16:02:13 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:02:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/12-webtv-minutes.html kaz
16:02:21 <Clarke> Kaz, you will generate minutes?
16:02:31 <Clarke> too slow :)
16:25:13 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:25:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/12-webtv-minutes.html kaz
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