Shawn asked for summary of CSUN activities from those who attended. Talked about AccessU at CSUN (well received but underattended); the proposal for accessibility society (some who were skeptical are more receptive now,others remain skeptical. General feeling that the "call for community input" was not entirely sincere since the decsion seemed to have already been made to move forward and the questions are more about implementation strategies);accessibility skills certification (general support for the concept, just uncertainty about who is the certifying agent); discussion of conference logistics(registration and tech support); the panel about Community Collaboration (see below) and more.
In considering the many activities blooming throughout the community at this time and that were widely discussed at CSUN, some consideration was given to the perception in the community of barriers that prevent people form doing innovative collaborative work within WAI. Discussion about why that is so - arduous process, membership requirements - and how it might be changed - streamlined processes, more open community groups - was extensive.
Next item was the introduction of outreach materials that were used at CSUN and will be distributed at SXSWi. The WAI flyer draft has been circulated and Knowbility also developed a set of trading cards based on the Guidelines that will be used as a game at the accessibility meetup at SXSW
Shawn reminded everyone to check action items, remembering that there are general action items at the top of the EO page and to update availability for future EO teleconferences.
Shawn: It was a very lively CSUN this year in regard to web accessibility, the creation of a professional society, certification and such. Any thoughts from those who were there on follow-up?
Sharron:I was there with Knowbility to present two days of preconference accessibility skills training called AccessU at CSUN. Had an admin and tech track going at the same time. Hoped for 100 attendees, but got started late with promo and ended up with just 48. Feedback has been excellent, will probably do it again.
.. as a result I missed pre-conference on professional society for which I am a skeptic. I heard more general agrement on need for skill certification, though not necessarily a need or value in a new society of accessiiblity professionals
... I thought the discussion at the panel that Shawn led went well, there was good energy and great comments. There could be some follow up from that but not sure what.
Shawn: AccessU next year?
Sharron:yes, they want us to. We'll need to work out the logistics with registered participants, people from overseas, especially. And maybe do pwds panel differently as Shawn said perhaps with videos instead. (tech support bad)
Jennifer: Doing a conference like this is hard and I have sympathy for the organizers. Still, they could maybe do more prep in advance.
Denis: I did go to the professional society meeting, after being invited by Andrew Kirkpatrick. I was skeptical and felt manipulated at first. We had been invited to give our input and help them decide if it would be useful.
<shawn> [ shawn agrees there wasn't a lot of opening for discussion ]
The reality is that they are going to do it regardless of community input but wanted to go through the motions.
Denis: If they come up with
something that resembles what they described, it will be a good
thing for those of us who do this professionally.
... it could be affordable for people to be a part of it and they will keep in mind that the grassroots movement is an important segment to be included.
... I am much more inclined to support it than I was before.
... Wednesday night there was a town hall meeting run by Rob Sinclair. MS is running this as though they really want community input. As long as they do what they say, I am comfortable.
... never knew what the ATIA was. they are good at marketing and were especially good that day.
Sharron: Knowbility has been a member of the ATIA for years and frankly it seems to be an insiders organization. It does not include new people very well and has not featured much about web accessiiblity since I have attended their conferences (for about 6 years now). I find it intersting that Denis still talks about the plans in terms of how it will be if "they" do what they say, and how it might be good for "us." That pattern still troubles me.
Denis: Yes, some were saying not to trust these people, we should do it ourselves. But they forget to actually DO anything. I would rather connect what we are doing to a larger project. I would find that to be relevant as long as it respects our values.
Sharron: I do not at all say don't trust them. I think you trust them to be who they are. I guess it is a subtle difference, but I think it is wise to expect them to do what they do, which is to protect their corporate interests first and foremost. This particular group of "leaders" has not extended real leadership sharing to others in any significant way that I have seen. Please correct me if I have mistaken this. They are individually all very nice, charming, and sincere people. But you must be clear about why they are doing this. It is to clarify the corporate path and for the ATIA to find a new revenue source. Both of which are as a good a reason to care about accessiiblity as any other. But you can not realistically expect them to do anything for the greater good that interferes with their narrow concerns. It just won't happen.
Denis: moving to the panel on Wednesday, the community collaboration, I thought it went pretty well. I had hoped we would have the discussion about the accessibility society and regret that there was not time. The input I received afterward was great.
Jennifer: Nothing really to add.
I too thought our panel went well. My presentation on Thursday with Jayne was good as well. Knowbility has launched a service through which PWD can sign on to be testers and usability professionals can use those
testers for remote studies.
... it went well, had about 20 people and they seemed like the right people to be there.
Sharron: as a result of the presentation and the following podcast, the database has grown considerably.
Suzette: How was the BAD demo?
Jennifer: It was OK. It's hard to do that live. it would have been better to have pre-recorded and shown a video.
Shawn: Kim didn't use it and Wayne barely used. Not sure we got as much promotion out of it as we could have.
Shadi: The usual spiel, CSUN was great, jazzy as ususal to meet everyone. The hallway discussions are as important if not more so than the actual presentations.
<shawn> Implementation Plan for Web Accessibility http://www.w3.org/WAI/impl/ (out of date)
Shadi: one thing that caught my attention, quite a bit of discusion about the arduous accessibility "process." Thinking about our implementation plan and resources, wishing that we could clean them up, bring them up to date and revise for general distribution and support.
Shawn: What about specific ideas about community collaboration?
Shadi: I think there is a real need expressed that people want a place to gather resources. For example the discussion of design patterns. How do we ensure that if someone wants to share, that it is actually a good design pattern. Need to vet or will end up with a lot material of varying quality and not be able to select among them unless there is some level of curation... and evaluation.
Denis: There was not a day last
week when someone did not talk to me about a BoK or a resource
...to get the respository to be recognized and known. Used as a practical place to build something. But I have heard these discussions for years and it is disappointing that there is not a single place to start and progress in learning about accessibility. People still find it too difficult, too technical, too dense.
... there is plenty of good material. The community effort that people seem to be interested in doing now. Karl Groves has been working for about 6 months, but people express interest and when tasks are assigned, don't have the time to dedicate to it.
... the other problem is getting those resources that are non-technical as a guide. To put those out there in some way that will create a layer over WCAG2 so that people approach it in context. In some way it exists with the Techniques, but they are deeply embedded and hard to get to.
Shadi: To your points, I share your agony at not having easy entry to the resources. Guess what, we have the WAI-ACT project, part of which is to provide just that. It is in the pipeline and if you want to continue EO participation, you will be part of it.
Denis: Good, I am tired of saying someone should do it and I want to be active in making it happen.
Shadi: Stay with your EO work and it is coming up to do this.
Denis: I want to be part of something bigger than just being another bloke out there talking about accessiiblity.
Shadi: This will be part of the usual EO development process with community input.
<shadi> eAccess+ Project
Shadi: here is a link to an open wiki where you can register and input information. People are trying to get this going. There are 30 partners in a "thematic network" to coordinate research.
Denis: Where does W3C's role end
and EO begin? I have heard that EO is not the place for this. I
don't understand why people think that. We are building these
resources, so why not extend them to house the resource?
... what is EO's position? Is it part of the mission or not?
Shawn: Much of it will fit in
here. There are some things, such as tool evaluation, that we
cannot do. But in terms of a broader BoK the only things
stopping us is lack of resources. If we had a group who wanted
to work on it in EO, that would be great.
... the model that Shadi talked about, the process results in extrmely well-vetted resources, but it takes enormous time. The process limits volume of resources produced. So perhaps there is a way to do both - build a wiki where the information housed is not fully W3C "approved" as a resource.
... so the fact is that this is within scope.
Denis: I would much rather work within W3C if possible.
Shawn: The changes in the W3C
this year attest to the fact that we are trying to make it
easier to participate and streamline the processes.
... people may have assumptions based on past ways that W3C has operated. The changes have taken place but are not widely known and recognized.
... I had hoped to have some pages to publish in the WebEd wiki and invite people to work on.
... still a possibility.
Jennifer: Getting back to the
BoK, some of these accessibility unconferences or hackathons,
why not get folks together in that way? Get some fun and
frameworks in place that people can understand and operate
... make pockets of experts in place and available.
Shadi: I think it is more the framework that there is still a vision forming for that. How will we maintain it, people gather and work and then what happens to the outcomes?
Sharron:But in this case, maybe the model should be cooperative, rather than competitive.
Jennifer: People will self-identify as knowledgeable if there is a competition or a contest.
Shadi: There is quite a difference between the hackathon where people are working on a specific fix and the BoK which is a means for people to present themselves but there can be other motivations in play.
Shawn: Cindy Li from Yahoo is an
accessiiblity friendly person but that is not by any means her
entire focus in her job.
... she said to me that she often did not know what to do for accessibility, in terms of contributing.
... so if we had specific design projects that would tempt designers and others and give them a place to learn and show skills, we would get response. We need to define what is useful and include in smaller, discrete projects that need attention, that might bring people in.
<Sylvie> No comments either.
Shadi: One of the items to
explore is the question of tools that could help.
... email lists are less effective and engaging than they once were. A rating system where you can help rate comments and questions.
Sharron:There is an accessible voting initiative taking place right now.
<shawn> ... have Open IDEO
Jennifer: They are an early stage
company. If they had the ability to build a differnt UI on top
of the functionality, it may be the kind of tool you want.
... Quora may be another one.
Shadi: It seems to be must more
related to process.
... the number of potential contributors seems small.
Jennifer: There are many people
who spend time on Twitter RT-ing information around. I would be
much happier to spend time on something more lasting.
... I wonder if giving the opportunity, people would not want to spend time more productively.
Shadi: Well, my experience is that some people prefer to spend time for example commenting on Twitter about the BAD demo rather than submitting comment to EO.
Shawn: No further discussion? Will develop more concrete next steps.
Shawn: We had nice 4-color flyer at CSUN and will distribute at SXSW as well. Want to include your feedback for next version. Needs refinement, please share your impressions.
Jennifer: Did it get a fair amount of uptake?
Shawn: Yes, we took 1000 and have about 2-300 left.
Sharron: Denis, I can send you some afterward.
Shawn: Let's watch for the unconferences and such for distribution channels.
Denis: The card that was made a few years ago a binder w/10 cards in it for mobile techniques.
Shawn: Brainstorming page also has many ideas for cool outreach materials, but we have no new funding for it.
Jennifer: That would be a good thing to give at your unconference.
<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/changelogs/cl-material Analysis of physical materials for WAI outreach
Denis: Yes, especially if it is in French. I could build one and see if you like it.
Shawn: In thinking about how to stand
out at SXSW this year? In the past we have had tattoos, sleep mask... what do this year? was looking at flyer
... and cam up with this game for sxsw - they get 12 cards of the same WCAG Guideline. trade with others until you have collected all 12.
... front has guideline and an image. back has all 12 listed in text so people know what they are trading for. To collect the cards, the actually have to read the guidelines. If people like it will do at otherconferences, etc.s
<shawn> ACTION: Shawn bring Sharron's at a glance cards to EOWG for discussion [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/03/09-eo-minutes.html#action01]
Denis: I want to see it
<trackbot> Created ACTION-108 - Bring Sharron's at a glance cards to EOWG for discussion [on Shawn Henry - due 2012-03-16].
Shawn: Would be interested in
different things like design, printing, and distribution. All
of them incur costs. So if we do design and approval and make
it available for others to print or make.
... if we had a stash of all these cool things, we have no funds right now for distribution.
... do you think people are up for printing them at their own expense?
Denis: People can get sponsor
dollars for events, so I could see using the sponsor funds to
create materials that would be given to attendees.
... I could maybe bring in the role and responsibility talk from last year and create flip cards for each role that could also be a game. Collect a whole set from one specific area of expertise.
Jennifer: I thing your roles and responsibilities talk is very valuable. if there is a BoK don't forget to include it.
Denis: would much rather build something that people will use as a tool. These cards may be just the thing.
Shawn: Would like to have a filter in the Quick Reference.
Denis: Not sure what to do, would prefer having it published on EO as a community effort.
Shawn: Two things that we need for it to be a filter in the Quick Reference. Need the programming and need agreement on what the categories are. I did not want to do much on the categories until programming was lined up.
Denis: I could bring in a programming resource. Not difficult to find as long as we have a plan.
Shawn: Shall we put it in a wiki page? EO or broader?
Jennifer: Does it fit in the WebEd wiki?
Shawn: Not totally but may be able to shoehorn it in.
<shawn> ACTION: Shawn think about where to put role filtering - EOWG wiki or other [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/03/09-eo-minutes.html#action02]
Shadi: What is the benefit to being outside of EO?
<trackbot> Created ACTION-109 - Think about where to put role filtering - EOWG wiki or other [on Shawn Henry - due 2012-03-16].
<suzette> If time at end, I have additional comment on IDEO: http://www.openideo.com/accessibility
Shadi: The development process on the wiki. It takes me a long time to change my habits, so we do have a process in EO for editors to work, review and revision. I would be more likely to comment on his work rather than go in and change it. There must be a point in time where we say we have reached consensus and ready to publish.
Shawn: So far the wiki process has worked well for us. have commented and allowed people to do their own changes. Could add notes rather than directly edit other people's submissions.
Shadi; The mailing list thread is nicer in my view for some types of comments.
Shawn: But nice to be able to fix typos.
Suzette: To backtrack to IDEO, they have been around for a long time now as a design firm with a good reputation. They have an accessibility link and are open for comment.
Suzette: can we reach out to designers theough that avenue?
Shawn: As an individual please feel free. EO will not do so formally.
Suzette: They are quite visually oriented, that's where they come from.
Shawn: Denis, I am trying to understand your message about the 16th and 23rd.
Denis: I will go with everyone, but would prefer later rather than earlier.
Shawn: It will either be same time here in North America or one hour later. Everyone remember to update when you are available. It was great to see those who were at CSUN last week, have a good weekend.