IRC log of wai-wcag on 2012-03-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:55:25 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
20:55:25 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/08-wai-wcag-irc
20:55:27 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
20:55:27 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #wai-wcag
20:55:29 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
20:55:29 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_WCAG()4:00PM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
20:55:30 [trackbot]
Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
20:55:30 [trackbot]
Date: 08 March 2012
20:57:19 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has now started
20:57:21 [Zakim]
+??P3
20:57:55 [Zakim]
+Cooper
20:58:09 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P3 is Gregg_Vanderheiden
20:58:09 [Zakim]
+Gregg_Vanderheiden; got it
20:59:11 [shadi]
zakim, code?
20:59:11 [Zakim]
the conference code is 9224 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), shadi
20:59:41 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
20:59:49 [Zakim]
+Shadi
20:59:54 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
20:59:54 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
21:00:06 [Zakim]
-[IPcaller]
21:00:19 [shadi]
zakim, unmute me
21:00:19 [Zakim]
Shadi should no longer be muted
21:00:32 [Zakim]
+Bruce_Bailey
21:01:01 [Zakim]
+Judy
21:01:06 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
21:01:06 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
21:01:48 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
21:01:57 [Judy]
Judy has joined #wai-wcag
21:02:11 [MichaelC]
zakim, IPcaller is Bengt_Farre
21:02:11 [Zakim]
+Bengt_Farre; got it
21:03:32 [Loretta]
Loretta has joined #WAI-WCAG
21:04:14 [Zakim]
+Loretta_Guarino_Reid
21:04:51 [Zakim]
+Kathy
21:05:40 [shadi]
ack me
21:05:53 [bengtf]
bengtf has joined #wai-wcag
21:07:26 [greggvanderheiden]
greggvanderheiden has joined #wai-wcag
21:07:52 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
21:07:52 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
21:08:17 [shadi]
ack me
21:08:31 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
21:08:31 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
21:08:55 [Loretta]
Shadi, here are the survey results for your first public working draft: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20120308misc/results#xconfeval
21:09:59 [Loretta]
Bengt, are you on the phone, or just IRC?
21:10:23 [Loretta]
ok, good.
21:12:17 [shadi]
ack me
21:13:35 [greggvanderheiden]
TOPIC:Website Accessibility Conformance Evaluation Methodology 1.0
21:14:06 [greggvanderheiden]
Brought to WCAG earlier
21:14:18 [greggvanderheiden]
Joint task force WCAG and ERT
21:14:35 [greggvanderheiden]
How to evaluate entire websites using WCAG
21:14:55 [greggvanderheiden]
Web site means site, or page, or application
21:15:15 [greggvanderheiden]
Intended to become a WG Note when done
21:15:40 [greggvanderheiden]
Looking at publication as First pub working draft
21:16:08 [greggvanderheiden]
Current draft has more at front and less at back (some sections just description of what will go there)
21:16:18 [greggvanderheiden]
Responses on WCAG survey so far look good.
21:16:44 [greggvanderheiden]
Are a number of questions that have come up on ERT and WCAG
21:17:25 [greggvanderheiden]
Questions on interpretation of Techniques -- to be sure people know that they are JUST ONE WAY vs THE WAY
21:17:48 [greggvanderheiden]
Want to make it like a step by step procedure
21:17:56 [adam]
adam has joined #wai-wcag
21:17:58 [greggvanderheiden]
Two audiences
21:18:01 [Zakim]
-Bruce_Bailey
21:18:35 [greggvanderheiden]
Experienced and new (with new following the narrative parts for extra support)
21:18:37 [Zakim]
+Bruce_Bailey
21:18:53 [Zakim]
+??P12
21:19:04 [adam]
zakim, P12 is adam_solomon
21:19:04 [Zakim]
sorry, adam, I do not recognize a party named 'P12'
21:19:35 [adam]
zakim, ??P12 is adam_solomon
21:19:35 [Zakim]
+adam_solomon; got it
21:19:49 [KathyW]
KathyW has joined #wai-wcag
21:20:15 [greggvanderheiden]
LORETTA: Shadi you can consider the survey results as an OK from us to publish
21:21:22 [greggvanderheiden]
SHADI: if you have any suggestions for wording to address the issue or any others p please send them
21:21:56 [greggvanderheiden]
The issue you raised on that WCAG techs are not the only techs
21:22:18 [greggvanderheiden]
another issue is people checking for Techniques Compliance rather than SC compliance
21:22:33 [shadi]
[["documented" is ambiguous]]
21:24:54 [greggvanderheiden]
comments welcome through next Wednesday
21:25:04 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
21:25:04 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
21:25:20 [Judy]
zakim, who's here?
21:25:20 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Gregg_Vanderheiden, Cooper, Shadi (muted), Judy, Bengt_Farre, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Kathy, Bruce_Bailey (muted), adam_solomon
21:25:22 [Zakim]
On IRC I see KathyW, adam, greggvanderheiden, bengtf, Loretta, Judy, Zakim, RRSAgent, shadi, MichaelC, trackbot
21:25:37 [greggvanderheiden]
TOPIC: Application of WCAG in other domains
21:26:13 [greggvanderheiden]
there has been some discussion on a task force to look at this issue
21:27:00 [greggvanderheiden]
this is something that is moving quickly so this is a quick update and I (JUDY) can come back to discuss again as well with other WCAG members
21:27:23 [greggvanderheiden]
there is desire to harmonize on WCAG use
21:27:34 [greggvanderheiden]
recently seeing more success on this
21:27:58 [greggvanderheiden]
in some places people are looking to apply WCAG more broadly than it was originally scoped for
21:28:03 [greggvanderheiden]
in US and Europe
21:28:31 [greggvanderheiden]
that raises questions as to whether certain provisions would be interpreted in other contexts beyond the web
21:29:03 [greggvanderheiden]
because WCAG 2.0 is a W3C doc - W3C is very interested in how WCAG is interpreted for any context
21:29:38 [greggvanderheiden]
if it were interpreted outside of W3C for other domains - it might flow back up to interpretation for Web
21:29:40 [Judy]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2010/06/charter
21:30:19 [greggvanderheiden]
the WCAG charter would already cover this -charter link just above
21:30:29 [greggvanderheiden]
we are just exploring this right now
21:30:53 [greggvanderheiden]
looking at an informative note - not a standard
21:31:17 [greggvanderheiden]
the task force would develop but it would go through WCAG and be published via WG to the TR
21:31:43 [greggvanderheiden]
Moving quickly - due to events (508 and Europe)
21:32:06 [greggvanderheiden]
involvement - because it is more than web we would be inviting others to participate
21:32:19 [greggvanderheiden]
people who may or may not ever join the regular WG
21:32:42 [greggvanderheiden]
in addition looking to people involved in the US and European work on 508 and 376
21:33:13 [greggvanderheiden]
Also possible liaison people from federal/gov agencies in US and Europe
21:33:41 [greggvanderheiden]
Bring together people already interested and working on this from outside -- and people from WG who are interested in this
21:33:48 [greggvanderheiden]
this is exploratory discussion at this point
21:34:13 [greggvanderheiden]
but wanted to brief the WG so they had a heads up - up front
21:34:21 [greggvanderheiden]
discussions are ongoing
21:35:15 [Judy]
Gregg: what I've heard from various discussions is that we need a team that includes people who know WCAG2 well
21:35:23 [Judy]
...and also who know software well
21:35:35 [Judy]
...and people from government, including US and Europe
21:35:53 [Judy]
...and people have noted that there needs to be a document with "weight"
21:35:55 [Zakim]
+David_MacDonald
21:36:12 [Judy]
...in terms of relevance of the home of the document, which in this case is WCAG2
21:36:32 [Judy]
...and that it should be closely coordinated with the "Understanding" document
21:36:49 [David]
David has joined #wai-wcag
21:36:53 [Judy]
...and that the interpretation of WCAG2 is important to the W3C and to the WCAG WG
21:37:18 [Judy]
...so that there are not interpretations that emerge that might be odd with regard to WCAG2
21:37:22 [shadi]
q+ to ask about expected timeline
21:37:32 [Judy]
...and that the results should be open and free, which W3C docs are
21:37:58 [Judy]
...and that the make-up of the group, in terms of who's involved and with what expertise, but that's how W3C/WAI does groups in any case
21:38:40 [shadi]
zakim, unmute me
21:38:40 [Zakim]
Shadi should no longer be muted
21:39:18 [Judy]
Gregg: I hadn't mentioned up front a reminder that when the 2011 ANPRM on 508 came out, it proposed not only that it would apply to Web but also proposed applying it to software
21:40:30 [Judy]
...also, [missed something] ...and this doc needed to be written before the new 508 and M376 docs take effect
21:40:49 [Loretta]
ack sh
21:40:49 [Zakim]
shadi, you wanted to ask about expected timeline
21:41:19 [greggvanderheiden]
Mandate 376 is supposed to be wrapping up but has now been extended -- but only til august
21:41:28 [greggvanderheiden]
so this would have to happen very rapidly
21:41:36 [greggvanderheiden]
Shadi was talking
21:41:40 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
21:41:41 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
21:41:50 [greggvanderheiden]
JUDY: timing is tricky
21:42:03 [greggvanderheiden]
the main work of the group needs to happen before August
21:42:17 [greggvanderheiden]
other people have said that there is a longer window
21:42:22 [shadi]
ack me
21:42:58 [greggvanderheiden]
however those comment were only referring to the US and the intent of WAI effort is to come up with something
21:43:09 [greggvanderheiden]
that is international and supports international efforts
21:43:24 [greggvanderheiden]
right now the EU clock is the one that is ticking faster
21:43:40 [greggvanderheiden]
SHADI: there are several timelines in 376
21:43:51 [greggvanderheiden]
August deadline is core technical document
21:44:03 [greggvanderheiden]
there are other support docs that can occur later
21:44:21 [greggvanderheiden]
the core doc then goes into a 2 year process in the standardization bodies
21:44:47 [greggvanderheiden]
people participating in the standards bodies can make adjustments but just adjustments
21:44:55 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
21:44:55 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
21:44:55 [greggvanderheiden]
the core work needs to be done before august
21:45:26 [greggvanderheiden]
JUDY: For the W3C it would be important to have the WCAG WG group to have input. so
21:45:49 [greggvanderheiden]
it is important for the WG to get its input in early since it will be less able to input later
21:46:00 [greggvanderheiden]
any other comments from anyone?
21:46:40 [greggvanderheiden]
Any initial reactions? Interesting? Worrysome? Anything else?
21:47:21 [greggvanderheiden]
KATHYW: This is interesting. we are seeing convergence and people are already trying to figure out whether their work is a doc or app or software or Web content
21:48:02 [greggvanderheiden]
DAVIDM: I have felt this way for a long time === this is all merging together and this would be a good development
21:49:13 [greggvanderheiden]
BRUCE: We have talked about this at Access Board and are supportive of efforts to bring common thought together on this.
21:50:26 [greggvanderheiden]
ADAM: Is this related to the exel and word doc aspects?
21:51:01 [greggvanderheiden]
JUDY: Related but broader. That was about are those Web Content. THis is about Docs and Software - so related but different.
21:51:47 [greggvanderheiden]
LORETTA: other discussion was about whether excel or word were web docs. THis is about application of WCAG to things that are NOT web content
21:52:00 [Loretta]
bengt, do you have any comment?
21:52:09 [Zakim]
-Gregg_Vanderheiden
21:52:10 [David]
scribe: David
21:53:02 [David]
Adam: will think about the idea of WCAG covering more than web content, and the idea of a task force under WCAG to address this.
21:54:01 [David]
Bengt: it makes sense the the lines between content and applications have this relationship.
21:54:42 [shadi]
ack me
21:54:43 [David]
Judy: asks for members to forward questions
21:54:51 [Zakim]
-Judy
21:54:53 [Zakim]
-Shadi
21:56:11 [David]
Loretta: will leave survey from Shadi open to comment on the Evaluation task force
22:14:58 [David]
Topic:
22:15:41 [David]
s/Topic:/Topic: Failure of Success Criterion 1.3.1 due to using elements within data tables that obscure structural relationships
22:17:11 [David]
Resolve to wait on acting on it, asking member to comment... some concerns about it being too wide, and tha some of the failures are more of annoyances than actual barriers.
22:18:01 [David]
Topic: F69 : Failure of Success Criterion 1.4.4 when resizing visually rendered text up to 200 percent causes the text, image or control to be clipped, truncated or obscured
22:25:40 [David]
Action: David to look at understanding 1.4.5 to add an explanation that anything that can be zoomed passes...
22:25:40 [trackbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - David
22:25:40 [trackbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. dmacdona, dtodd2)
22:26:07 [David]
Action: David_MacDonald to look at understanding 1.4.5 to add an explanation that anything that can be zoomed passes...
22:26:07 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - David_MacDonald
22:26:27 [David]
Action: DavidMacDonald to look at understanding 1.4.5 to add an explanation that anything that can be zoomed passes...
22:26:27 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - DavidMacDonald
22:27:00 [David]
Action: dmacdona to look at understanding 1.4.5 to add an explanation that anything that can be zoomed passes...
22:27:01 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-168 - Look at understanding 1.4.5 to add an explanation that anything that can be zoomed passes... [on David MacDonald - due 2012-03-15].
22:27:59 [MichaelC]
drop action 1
22:28:07 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, drop action 1
22:28:11 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, drop action 2
22:28:14 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, drop action 3
22:28:26 [Zakim]
-Bruce_Bailey
22:28:29 [Zakim]
-Kathy
22:28:30 [Zakim]
-Loretta_Guarino_Reid
22:28:31 [Zakim]
-adam_solomon
22:28:38 [Zakim]
-Bengt_Farre
22:28:41 [Zakim]
-Cooper
22:28:42 [Zakim]
-David_MacDonald
22:28:43 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
22:28:43 [Zakim]
Attendees were Cooper, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Shadi, Bruce_Bailey, Judy, Bengt_Farre, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Kathy, adam_solomon, David_MacDonald
22:29:03 [bengtf]
bengtf has left #wai-wcag
22:30:15 [David]
s/1.4.5/1.4.4
22:48:32 [MichaelC]
chair: Loretta_Guarino_Reid
22:48:37 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make minutes
22:48:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/08-wai-wcag-minutes.html MichaelC
22:53:54 [MichaelC]
trackbot, end meeting
22:53:54 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
22:53:54 [Zakim]
sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
22:54:02 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
22:54:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/08-wai-wcag-minutes.html trackbot
22:54:03 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
22:54:03 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/03/08-wai-wcag-actions.rdf :
22:54:03 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: dmacdona to look at understanding 1.4.5 to add an explanation that anything that can be zoomed passes... [4]
22:54:03 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/03/08-wai-wcag-irc#T22-27-00