14:48:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #eval
14:48:25 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/08-eval-irc
14:48:27 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:48:27 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #eval
14:48:29 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3825
14:48:29 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
14:48:30 <trackbot> Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference
14:48:30 <trackbot> Date: 08 March 2012
14:48:40 <shadi> chair: Eric
14:48:55 <shadi> regrets: Elle, Alistair, Richard
14:50:24 <shadi> regrets: Elle, Alistair, Richard, Liz, Tim
14:50:42 <shadi> regrets: Elle, Alistair, Richard, Liz, Tim, Vincent
14:53:39 <MartijnHoutepen> MartijnHoutepen has joined #eval
14:54:31 <Zakim> WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has now started
14:54:38 <Zakim> +??P0
14:54:58 <sds> zakim, ??P0 is me
14:54:58 <Zakim> +sds; got it
14:55:19 <Zakim> + +1.602.824.aaaa
14:58:04 <Zakim> +Shadi
14:58:48 <shadi> zakim, aaaa is Don
14:58:48 <Zakim> +Don; got it
14:58:55 <Zakim> + +31.30.239.aabb
14:59:07 <shadi> zakim, sds is really ssirois
14:59:07 <Zakim> +ssirois; got it
14:59:16 <MartijnHoutepen> zakim, aabb is me
14:59:16 <Zakim> +MartijnHoutepen; got it
15:00:15 <MartijnHoutepen> zakim, mute me
15:00:15 <Zakim> MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
15:00:24 <ericvelleman> ericvelleman has joined #eval
15:00:48 <Zakim> +??P16
15:00:57 <vivienne> zakim, ??P16 is me
15:00:57 <Zakim> +vivienne; got it
15:01:17 <vivienne> zakim, mute me
15:01:17 <Zakim> vivienne should now be muted
15:01:21 <Zakim> + +31.30.239.aacc
15:01:27 <ssirois> zakim, mute me
15:01:27 <Zakim> ssirois should now be muted
15:01:28 <Mike_Elledge> Mike_Elledge has joined #eval
15:02:09 <Kerstin> Kerstin has joined #eval
15:02:12 <Zakim> + +1.517.353.aadd
15:02:18 <MartijnHoutepen> zakim, unmute me
15:02:18 <Zakim> MartijnHoutepen should no longer be muted
15:02:49 <Zakim> - +31.30.239.aacc
15:03:22 <MartijnHoutepen> zakim, mute me
15:03:22 <Zakim> MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
15:03:34 <Zakim> + +31.30.239.aaee
15:04:19 <Mike_Elledge> zakim,  aadd is, me
15:04:20 <Zakim> +??P26
15:04:20 <Zakim> I don't understand 'aadd is, me', Mike_Elledge
15:05:11 <Zakim> - +31.30.239.aaee
15:05:20 <Mike_Elledge> zakim, add is me
15:05:20 <Zakim> sorry, Mike_Elledge, I do not recognize a party named 'add'
15:05:25 <Kathy> Kathy has joined #eval
15:05:26 <Kerstin> zakim, ??P26 is me
15:05:26 <Zakim> +Kerstin; got it
15:05:32 <Zakim> + +1.978.443.aaff
15:05:43 <Mike_Elledge> zakim, aadd is me
15:05:43 <Zakim> +Mike_Elledge; got it
15:05:47 <Zakim> + +31.30.239.aagg
15:05:48 <Mike_Elledge> Yay!
15:06:07 <Kerstin> +1 for the Yay
15:06:12 <Kathy> zakim, aaff is me
15:06:12 <Zakim> +Kathy; got it
15:06:18 <Mike_Elledge> :^)
15:06:33 <MartijnHoutepen> zakim, unmute me
15:06:33 <Zakim> MartijnHoutepen should no longer be muted
15:06:45 <Kerstin> zakim, mute me
15:06:45 <Zakim> Kerstin should now be muted
15:06:51 <Kathy> zakim, mute me
15:06:51 <Zakim> Kathy should now be muted
15:06:52 <ssirois> zakim, unmute me
15:06:53 <Zakim> ssirois should no longer be muted
15:07:23 <ssirois> zakim, scribe is me
15:07:23 <Zakim> sorry, ssirois, I do not recognize a party named 'scribe'
15:07:34 <shadi> scribe: Samuel
15:07:43 <shadi> scribenick: ssirois
15:08:19 <Zakim> - +31.30.239.aagg
15:08:39 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:08:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see ssirois, Don, Shadi, MartijnHoutepen, vivienne (muted), Mike_Elledge, Kerstin (muted), Kathy (muted)
15:09:03 <shadi> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-evaltf/2012Mar/0004.html
15:09:16 <shadi> Topic: New Methodology version
15:09:30 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20120306
15:09:36 <Sarah_Swierenga> Sarah_Swierenga has joined #eval
15:09:44 <Mike_Elledge> +1 for the new document!
15:10:03 <Zakim> + +1.517.432.aahh
15:10:07 <vivienne> q+
15:10:11 <ssirois> ericvelleman: New methodoly revision (mostly done by shadi). Section 3 is now more step based.
15:10:14 <Kathy> +1  I like it
15:10:15 <ericvelleman> q?
15:10:20 <vivienne> ack me
15:10:28 <shadi> zakim, aahh is Sarah
15:10:28 <Zakim> +Sarah; got it
15:10:33 <ssirois> ericvelleman: What are the comments on that new version? Objections, suggestions?
15:11:01 <shadi> ack viv
15:11:08 <ssirois> vivienne: Really likes the new flow of the document. Easier to understand. Just sent a couple of emails before this meeting.
15:11:25 <shadi> [[Note: When a website is being re-evaluated, it is sometimes useful for comparison to include a portion of web pages from the sample selected for the previous evaluation. However, the majority of web pages should be freshly selected to provide an accurate representation of the entire website.]]
15:12:23 <Zakim> + +31.30.239.aaii
15:12:47 <ericvelleman> q?
15:12:53 <MartijnHoutepen> zakim, aaii is me
15:12:53 <Zakim> +MartijnHoutepen; got it
15:12:56 <vivienne> zakim, mute me
15:12:56 <Zakim> vivienne should now be muted
15:13:05 <MartijnHoutepen> zakim, mute me
15:13:05 <Zakim> MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
15:13:06 <Kathy> q+
15:13:08 <Kerstin> q+
15:13:28 <ericvelleman> q?
15:13:44 <vivienne> can you take those that I've written already?
15:13:51 <ssirois> vivienne: Step 3.b, did we agree on adding new pages to the already selected pages or did we want to start on a fresh base? I think we have aggreed to add pages to the selected page. We might have to rephrase a little.
15:14:16 <ssirois> ericvelleman: Yes. We have aggreed on that and we shall rephrase.
15:14:33 <MartijnHoutepen> zakim, unmute me
15:14:33 <Zakim> MartijnHoutepen should no longer be muted
15:14:42 <Mike_Elledge> q+
15:14:50 <Kathy> ack me
15:15:08 <shadi> [[change "majority" to "freshly"]]
15:15:16 <ssirois> Kathy: I agree that this is a much better draft now.
15:16:05 <Kerstin> zakim, unmute me
15:16:05 <Zakim> Kerstin should no longer be muted
15:16:11 <ssirois> Kathy: I feel like we kind of repeat ourselves in 3.a,b and c. Maybe we should tighten things a little?
15:16:32 <ssirois> ericvelleman: Actually, we did try to make those different but if it seems to have overlaps, we shall review that.
15:16:46 <shadi> [[repitition between 3.a and 3.c regarding pages relevant for people with disabilities]]
15:16:58 <ssirois> ericvelleman: If you see anything that is "already" there, just make sure to point it out.
15:17:01 <ericvelleman> q?
15:17:08 <Kathy> zakim, mute me
15:17:08 <Zakim> Kathy should now be muted
15:17:10 <MartijnHoutepen> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:17:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see ssirois, Don, Shadi, MartijnHoutepen, vivienne (muted), Mike_Elledge, Kerstin, Kathy (muted), Sarah, MartijnHoutepen.a
15:17:37 <shadi> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-evaltf/2012Mar/0016.html
15:18:17 <ssirois> Kerstin: Two major points that i have already sent through email (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-evaltf/2012Mar/0016.html)
15:18:43 <Zakim> -Don
15:19:11 <ssirois> Kerstin: On point 1e and 4b, i have submitted my comments.
15:19:24 <Zakim> +Don
15:19:49 <ssirois> scribe: (note) read through previous URL for more details on Kerstin's thoughts.
15:20:18 <MartijnHoutepen> zakim, MartijnHoutepen.a is me
15:20:18 <Zakim> +MartijnHoutepen; got it
15:21:16 <MartijnHoutepen> MartijnHoutepen has left #eval
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15:22:21 <ssirois> shadi: i think that techniques are a good tool to "prove" the conformity declaration.
15:23:07 <ssirois> Kerstin: i think there is a big missunderstanding worldwide on the mandatory aspect of applied techniques for conformity.
15:23:08 <ericvelleman> q?
15:23:54 <ssirois> shadi: would it be ok if we rephrase the draft to make sure that it is understood that the techniques are not checkpoints for conformity.
15:24:49 <Mike_Elledge> "recommend use relevant WCAG 2.0 techniques or their equivalent"
15:24:54 <Kerstin> zakim, mute me
15:24:54 <Zakim> Kerstin should now be muted
15:24:56 <ssirois> Kerstin: yes. it is important that the techniques are not looked as the ONLY way to achieve conformity.
15:25:07 <shadi> q- ker
15:25:54 <shadi> q+
15:25:59 <shadi> ack mike
15:26:25 <ssirois> Mike_Elledge: If the techniques for WCAG 2.0 are not correct, they should be revised because we really want to point to those techniques (not reinventing the wheel) for our methodology.
15:26:34 <ssirois> Mike_Elledge: the step by step process is really great.
15:26:36 <shadi> ack me
15:26:45 <ericvelleman> q?
15:27:51 <ssirois> shadi: we have to be carefull that only the techniques published by the w3c are valid. there are great techniques out there.
15:28:39 <ssirois> shadi: it is bogus to think that if none of the techniques match on a website, the website is not conform.
15:29:07 <vivienne> Shadi, could you give us an example?
15:29:09 <ssirois> shadi: we should not add to this missunderstanding with our document.
15:31:17 <shadi> [[add "resources from W3C" in 1.3]]
15:31:29 <shadi> Topic: Section 2.1 Scope of Applicability
15:31:44 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20120306#applicability
15:32:22 <vivienne> I think that 2.1 covers our discussion well.
15:33:09 <vivienne> q+
15:33:13 <vivienne> ack me
15:34:29 <Kerstin> just 19? ;-)
15:34:58 <ssirois> vivienne: i like the examples. they are selfexplicit and covering a large part of our discussions. maybe add a couple more examples, to make sure to cover all our discussions.
15:35:09 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20120306#step1a
15:35:59 <shadi> [[consider a link forward from 2.1 to Step 1.a]]
15:35:59 <Sarah_Swierenga> I like that the section emphasizes that "The methodology defined by this document applies to full, self-enclosed websites...." and "...the methodology always applies to a full website without exclusions or omissions of website parts...." 
15:36:23 <vivienne> zakim, mute me
15:36:23 <Zakim> vivienne should now be muted
15:38:17 <ssirois> ericvelleman: by using the methodology, we might find out that we need more examples. we'll be able to address that in time.
15:39:11 <shadi> Topic: Section 3 Evaluation Procedure
15:39:35 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20120306#procedure
15:39:47 <ssirois> ericvelleman: bringing light to each steps found in section 3.
15:40:21 <ssirois> ericvelleman: i suggess that we concentrate on steps 1,2 and 3 for this week and then go further.
15:40:35 <Kerstin> q+
15:40:41 <Kerstin> Zakim, unmute me
15:40:41 <Zakim> Kerstin should no longer be muted
15:40:42 <ssirois> ericvelleman: does anyone think we are missing steps, or having too much steps?
15:40:52 <shadi> ack ker
15:41:03 <ssirois> Kerstin: i think we are missing the number of pages.
15:41:13 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20120306#step3b
15:41:27 <shadi> q+
15:41:29 <vivienne> q+
15:41:35 <shadi> q- last
15:41:40 <shadi> q-
15:41:46 <shadi> q+
15:41:47 <ericvelleman> q?
15:41:47 <vivienne> ack me
15:41:49 <Kerstin> zakim, mute me
15:41:49 <Zakim> Kerstin should now be muted
15:42:26 <ssirois> ericvelleman: In step 3.b, we are suggesting having at least two distinct web pages. And we precise further more a little later.
15:42:29 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20120306#elemental
15:42:58 <shadi> [[Fundamental web pages that are relevant to the entire website. This includes the homepage, login page, and other entry pages, and, where applicable, the sitemap, contacts, site help, legal information, and similar web pages that are typically linked from all web pages (usually from the header, footer, or navigation menu of a web page).]]
15:43:37 <MartijnHoutepen> sorry, one of my headsets is broken, the other one empty
15:44:22 <ssirois> vivienne: we should recall "elemental web pages" in step three.
15:45:08 <ssirois> ericvelleman: we could reference it more directly. but it might looks like a repetition of section 1.4
15:45:10 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20120306#terms
15:46:00 <ericvelleman> q?
15:46:10 <vivienne> zakim, mute me
15:46:10 <Zakim> vivienne should now be muted
15:46:49 <shadi> ack me
15:48:22 <ssirois> shadi: regarding the number of pages. step 3 of section 3 will suffer a lot of revisions before it actually works. but the approach is more "dynamic". even in very large websites, heavily template-driven, maybe just a handfull of pages might be ok, eventhough we have thousands of pages.
15:48:40 <Mike_Elledge> q+
15:48:51 <ssirois> shadi: but in a small website, authored by a lot of contributors, might actually need more pages in the sample.
15:49:09 <newbie> newbie has joined #eval
15:49:17 <ssirois> shadi: we need much more refinement as we go, but do we agree on the approach?
15:49:30 <ssirois> Mike_Elledge: yes, the approach is good.
15:49:45 <shadi> ack me
15:49:52 <ssirois> Mike_Elledge: are we restricting the review to entire pages or could we sample just a feature in a page?
15:49:55 <shadi> ack m
15:49:58 <Kerstin> I like the steps so far ver y much, ok,.. except Step 4.b
15:50:08 <ssirois> ericvelleman: the idea (as in wcag2) is to evaluate the whole page.
15:51:04 <MartijnHoutepen> MartijnHoutepen has joined #eval
15:52:21 <ssirois> shadi: lets say that one of the page contains a video (which is a unique feature of that page). that page would end up in the basket of the pages to evaluate. we previously had concensus that we do not need to re-evaluate the navigation on all pages.
15:52:43 <Mike_Elledge> Thanks!
15:52:51 <ssirois> ericvelleman: any other remarks on the document, until step 4?
15:53:13 <shadi> Topic: Next Steps
15:53:40 <vivienne> I think it will be good to publish this as you suggest.
15:53:50 <ssirois> ericvelleman: would the group agree that we try to publish this version as the first draft? anyone have trouble with this?
15:53:51 <shadi> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/48225/WCAG-EM20120306/
15:53:55 <Kerstin> I would like to decide after the changes
15:54:24 <ssirois> shadi: i have prepared a web based survey for everyone to add additionnal comments to the current state of the document.
15:54:27 <ssirois> q+
15:54:57 <ssirois> shadi: things that must be lookup up before publishing the draft.
15:55:10 <ssirois> shadi: the survey will go until next wednesday.
15:55:54 <shadi> ack ssirois 
15:56:21 <ssirois> shadi: the two parents WG will recieve the survey as well. (since both are responsible for this task force)
15:56:30 <ssirois> q?
15:57:27 <ssirois> ericvelleman: we shall have a "final" version of the first draft (which will be published).
15:58:41 <ssirois> shadi: we are in search of our first consensus on the draft. editor's draft does not represent the group (per say), but the public draft is representing a concensus of the group's ideas on the methodology.
15:58:51 <Kerstin> thanks shadi and eric for all the work
15:59:06 <Kerstin> zakim, unmute me
15:59:06 <Zakim> Kerstin should no longer be muted
15:59:11 <ssirois> ericvelleman: let's work on this on the comming week. thank you.
15:59:12 <vivienne> bye now see you next week.
15:59:13 <Zakim> -Sarah
15:59:15 <MartijnHoutepen> bye
15:59:17 <vivienne> -vivienne
15:59:18 <Mike_Elledge> Bye!
15:59:19 <Zakim> -Kathy
15:59:20 <Zakim> -Don
15:59:22 <Zakim> -Shadi
15:59:23 <Zakim> -Mike_Elledge
15:59:27 <Zakim> -ssirois
15:59:28 <Zakim> -vivienne
15:59:28 <Zakim> -MartijnHoutepen.aa
15:59:36 <Zakim> -MartijnHoutepen
15:59:37 <Zakim> -Kerstin
15:59:39 <Zakim> WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has ended
15:59:39 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.602.824.aaaa, Shadi, Don, +31.30.239.aabb, ssirois, MartijnHoutepen, vivienne, +31.30.239.aacc, +1.517.353.aadd, +31.30.239.aaee, Kerstin, +1.978.443.aaff,
15:59:39 <Zakim> ... Mike_Elledge, +31.30.239.aagg, Kathy, +1.517.432.aahh, Sarah, +31.30.239.aaii
16:02:27 <ericvelleman> ericvelleman has left #eval
16:09:34 <shadi> trackbot, end meeting
16:09:34 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:09:34 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
16:09:42 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:09:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/08-eval-minutes.html trackbot
16:09:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:09:43 <RRSAgent> I see no action items